Hi everyone. Looking for some feedback. Here are some photos of the bulkhead area in a 1999 U270 that I'm looking to purchase. Both the seller and I are curious as to whether this is bulkhead separation or something more serious. Thoughts or feedback welcomed. Thanks in advance.
You don't have missing bulkhead bolt heads missing. They can be checked by applying 250in-lbs of torque. You definitely have serious corrosion likely caused by unaddressed water leakage. A section of the belly pan is going to have to be removed to determine how much of the basement floor must be replaced.
Look at the fiberglass skin underneath. Can you see "printing" of the steel structure in the belly skin? That was the best indication of extent of degradation in my recent repair. We ripped The entire skin off to see and it extended just beyond this display in the skin.
You DO have bulkhead damage. The gap and rust you see in the fiberglass is caused by rust jacking and once open like that allows more water into that area.
Look at how far forward the "printing" is (beams more pronounced because of rust jacking) than further forward. That will give you an indication of how far forward the beams are compromised. Also, look around the drop down door in the wet bay for signs of rust or rust jacking.
The only way to give an accurate estimate of the extend of the damage is to open it up/drop the fiberglass skin off the bottom.
Yes, torquing the Rolock bolts will tell you some of the story, and you will have broken bolts. But, the visible damage is even more telling.
Thanks everyone for the replies. We are new at this and everyone has been very thoughtful and helpful.
Don't want to give a too optimistic picture as you never know what is hidden, but I've seen a lot worse just looking at your photos. Brett is correct and you will have broken bolts when you try and torque.
Pull the bottom off and take a look. After cleaning and possibly replacing/repairing some tubing, replace the bolts with either 316 stainless, grade 8s with Nylocs or hot dipped galvanized. Rolocks are not the proper fastener for this application.
Pierce
OP doesn't own the coach in photos - he is just "looking to purchase". May be limited in how "deeply" he can investigate.
The damage is there as is the potential for extensive work needed. Just how extensive is a question that can't be answered without some invasive inspection. At the minimum, the asking price would need to drop about $5 coach bucks before I would look any closer at the other condition based considerations to determine a fair purchase price. At $5k, you could come out slightly ahead if paying for competent repairs to the area, but you could also be way under if a full basement replacement was warranted. Not too likely, but others have chosen to go this route for peace of mind.
Don
where is coach located now? what State?
Tim Fiedler
Sure Start Soft Start (http://www.gen-pro.biz) - home of SureStart soft starters TCER Direct (http://www.tcerdirect.com) - home of Generac Approved Aluminum and Copper TCER Composite cable generator-gas-prod (http://www.generatorgasproducts.com) - home of X-Riser Gas Risers for PE installation Call me at 630 240-9139
Gen-Pro
I know mine is bad, and doesn't look anywhere near that bad. You may also pay attention to the area around the sewer drop down. As others have said the bottom will have to come down to really access the extent of the damage. The 5K number is about the avg cost so I here. As well as a trip to Nacogdoches Tex for repairs.
Yep, bulkhead repair in the near future. Not necessarily a deal breaker but recommend you take a good hard critical look at the level of rust/corrosion on other parts as well. Some surface rust is to be expected, but layers of exfoliating metal = walk away.
You also need to factor in the lost time on your "new" coach while it is being repaired. That to me is worth quite a bit.
The easy way might be to: Walk Away.
If you are in love with her ask the current owner to repair the corrosion area(s) and then you will buy if everything else checks out. You could have someone like Brett do an inspection as a condition for purchase along with the corrosion work.
Coach location - pics?
I would take a grinder and cut back about 1' from the bulk head fiberglass area ( only about a 1/8th" through the fiberglass.)
I would do this along the front and rear bulk heads.
Peel the 1' panel off and get a good look. Most damage will be in this area of the belly.
You can buy some fiberglass panel at Home Depot and glue and screw it on to replace the fiberglass you tore off.
If you want to strip the glued in insulation panel out to see the entire beams you can score it with a razor and then chip it out. I found spraying it with carb cleaner melts it out ( don't be underneath the dissolving dripping foam insulation when you do it).
The seller should do this for you. Even if everything checks out all the bulkhead bolts should be replaced with a bolt and nut on the front and back bulkheads. You can be almost guaranteed that the rolock bolts that are there now from the factory are goners.
The bolt replacement will be way less than a full frame replacement.
either walk away or get the coach to Brett Wolfe or MOT or someone who can drop the basement floor and give you a firm cost to repair.
If you would say where the coach is, members of the forum would potentially be able to direct you towards one or two qualified repair facilities
Tim Fiedler
Sure Start Soft Start (http://www.gen-pro.biz) - home of SureStart soft starters TCER Direct (http://www.tcerdirect.com) - home of Generac Approved Aluminum and Copper TCER Composite cable generator-gas-prod (http://www.generatorgasproducts.com) - home of X-Riser Gas Risers for PE installation Call me at 630 240-9139
Gen-Pro
If you went to a typical seller and told him he had to perform this "operation" to make a deal, he would tell you to get lost. Then he would try to find another buyer who was less knowledgeable (not a Forum member).
This ended up being my coach - which was currently located in VA. After several days of research and hours of hearing the opinions of many knowledgeable people, the buyer and I were able to agree to a conservative price reduction that would cover anything but the most extreme catastrophic repair.
You're right, I would have been "better off" telling Chuck to get lost! - but if we couldn't come to an agreement then I was going to hop in the coach on Friday and drive it down to MOT. The alternative wasn't really an option for me - at least not if I wanted to be able to sleep at night.
It was a little tough to come to terms with what we found (and what most were saying in this post), because the last time I was in Nac for service I had it checked, and everything looked pretty good. But, at the end of the day, it is what it is - and Chuck is a great guy that clearly had done his research about every last important aspect of the coach. I sincerely hope that, after the repair, he comes out well on top and gets to invest those extra CBs in some more tangible goodies.
Chuck is a great guy, good conversationalist, and has some excellent stories under his belt. I hope you all get a chance to know/meet him through this forum, should he choose to be an active member. And thanks to everyone else for their objective feedback on this post, and to those who took time out to talk through our inquiries over the phone and via personal message. Cheers!
Your buyer sounds just like me, except I never talk to anybody, and the only thing under my belt is some excess weight.
Glad you guys were able to strike a deal!
"Your buyer sounds just like me, except I never talk to anybody, and the only thing under my belt is some excess weight".
Thought it was you !!!
NOBODY can spend 4 years @ VMI and 7 year as a pilot in USAF and not have stories to tell !!!
True, but since this is a "G" rated, family oriented Forum, mums the word.
I guess the bottom line on this scary thread (it could happen to any of us), would be to post pics of the re-do and (gulp), tell us what it cost! Good luck. ^.^d
I thought I had some great flying stories to tell but Bill puts me to shame. The Flight Engineer is only part of his story. He owned a flying service and I got to go through the previous King Air as well as the new $5.5M King Air. A very accomplished pilot!
Pierce
Long thread but it does show pics of before and after and lots of comments.
Rear Bulkhead Repair (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=30114.0)
When the time is right to sell coach, I will consign it at MOT.
Prior to putting it on the lot, i will have them drop the basement, document the conditions and repair as needed.
I will also make sure tires and chassis batteries are within 4 years old.
Both parties in a subsequent sale will feel good about the transaction. Might cost me a few dollars, but might accelerate sale. In any case, it will feel better to me, simplify my life and reassure the buyer.
Not a recommendation to anyone else, just my thoughts as a post script to this thread.
Thanks everyone for the replies and advice. As the seller James mentioned we were able to negotiate a deal and the motorhome is currently parked in a campground across the street from the house we are renting east of Nashville TN. James is also a great guy and after 35+ years as a cop I believe he is an honest man. Now my judgment has been wrong in that respect in the past but I don't think so this time and I believe he sincerely hopes we come out ahead after we complete the required repairs. Time will tell on that one. Even though James is currently Foretravel less I hope he continues to monitor the forum and respond when he can help out. NOW on to bigger fish to fry where to get it inspected and repaired. I am only about 150 miles west of Tennessee RV and a lot of you who responded to my first post gave them great reviews but I'm wondering if MOT would have more experience and therefore expertise in the bulk head inspection and repair or is there another shop out there that would do a great job? Advice and opinions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again for all the help.
The trip to Nac., - about 650 miles+/-, might be a good opportunity to visit Nac and see the sights.
I would guess that Tenn. RV can get the job done, but if it were mine and I were that distance from MOT, i would go there. I believe that they have the most experience with this situation.
The repair will probably take a week +/- to complete. If you have other FT type concerns they can be addressed then. I would guess that you could book an appt. Figure one day at MOT, 3 to 4 days at the welding shop then one to two days back to MOT to put it back together. Nac is a nice East Texas town and has a few good restaurants and other interesting things to do.
Good luck in your adventure and would be interested in seeing updates.
BTW - Welcome to the forum. ^.^d
After looking at the pics, I'd agree with Scott.........."Go to 'CBC' (coach buck city)". b^.^d
Absolutely crazy to drive more than just a few miles to your local welding shop. That's what they do for a living every day. It's not rocket science. Don did a better that factory new job on his coach right at home in his driveway.
Pierce
While Pearce's post is absolutely correct, it ASSUMES that either you or the welder has done the homework to know what to open up and how. Which electronics to disconnect before welding, etc.
Said another way, I would not want my coach to be the guinea pig for even a good local welder who had not worked on a Foretravel bulkhead without my CLOSE SUPERVISION.
Most of the members of this forum joined because they wanted to know more about how their coach is designed, all of it's components, and how others have solved problems as they have cropped up. Naturally, I would expect someone requiring repair on their bulkhead to have done all the research on what might be encountered in doing the repair and to have all needed material from previous posts on our forum when selecting a welding shop to do the repairs.
Don went into the repair cold turkey. He encountered just about every problem possible in repairing his bulkhead. I can't imagine anyone on this forum who would be as you describe, a guinea pig and leaving their coach to be repaired without first bringing themselves up to speed on procedures others have used in previous repairs. Secondly, a proper repair can only be done by working closely with a welding shop so they are knowledgeable in all facets of the repair process. This includes interviewing shops ahead of time to make sure they will be able to do a quality repair including arming yourself with photos and documentation from posts like Don's to insure that both you and the shop are on the same page.
There are a lot of bright people on this forum. I don't think I'm overreaching in assuming that everyone here requiring this kind of work would not do their homework before assigning the repair job to a shop. There are lots of shops that restore cars to better than new condition. You see these in car shows all the time. They are absolutely up to speed on the latest restoration techniques in primers, sealers, paint, welding, etc.
When I had my seats done in Mexico, I did the research on shops there, chose the best material, carefully explained exactly what I wanted and then inspected the work on a daily basis. As you have seen from photos in my previous posts, the end product was first class exceeding what had been done at the factory.
So, if you don't have both unlimited credit on your card and lots of time to drive a lengthy distance to a shop in another state (twice), and DO have the willingness to explore options close to home, a quality repair can be done while you monitor the process and expense.
Pierce
Indeed there are two groups, not just here, but in general-- those who DO and those who PAY. Applies to doing yard work, washing vehicles, maintaining vehicles, maintaining homes-- most facets of life.
Having done a lot of mechanical inspections on coaches and interacted with a lot of buyers and owners, I can tell you for a fact that there are a large number in the second category. Just a fact.
As Pierce said, many here are in the first category-- the DOERS.
Not right or wrong, but what one can competently do/supervise IS different.
adding to Brett's thoughts, I would like that a Keith Risch was involved, especially on the supervision and the closing back up of the job. While these repairs are not insignificant, most are in the $2-$5K range, (some more and some less) at MOT, and with those repairs and well maintained these amazing coaches can be going strong at 50 years old.
and as for Don's work vs. the average local welder, I take Don's work every time, so I am not sure that is a good proxy for "if Don can do it in his driveway, surely your local welder can do this job".
That being said, local welder is an option, especially if you are distant from a knowledgeable and experienced shop, but if the distances are manageable, there isn't likely dollar savings significant enough to offset the added risk of taking this to someone who is doing this job for the first time.
Poorly done, the bulkhead repair could reduce the value of the coach, not increase it.
Tim Fiedler
Sure Start Soft Start (http://www.gen-pro.biz) - home of SureStart soft starters TCER Direct (http://www.tcerdirect.com) - home of Generac Approved Aluminum and Copper TCER Composite cable generator-gas-prod (http://www.generatorgasproducts.com) - home of X-Riser Gas Risers for PE installation Call me at 630 240-9139
Gen-Pro
sadly, I am a payer, finding it easier enjoy ownership in that "bucket" - I am a "doer" on my airplanes - I like the size of the components I am dealing with, at 66 I still find them easy to work on, have the tools, facility, prior experience and local knowledgeable resources to feel comfortable (and most importantly safe) with this approach.
Put me down as a "payer" on the U-320
Quoting Dave Metzger (RIP) "Do what makes you happy"
Tim Fiedler
Sure Start Soft Start (http://www.gen-pro.biz) - home of SureStart soft starters TCER Direct (http://www.tcerdirect.com) - home of Generac Approved Aluminum and Copper TCER Composite cable generator-gas-prod (http://www.generatorgasproducts.com) - home of X-Riser Gas Risers for PE installation Call me at 630 240-9139
Gen-Pro
"if Don can do it in his driveway, surely your local welder can do this job".
You have to have seen "Don's driveway and have watched Don work in his "driveway" (or any place for that matter )
It really was not "on the driveway". It was on an inclined soil next to driveway. 15 feet farther was a a a small canyon (estimate 500 feet to the bottom)
PS, Don is a pleasure to watch @ work, slow but well thought out before he starts
I agree with Brett and would rather pay some one qualified on bulkhead repair then hoping the guy knows what he is doing. Myself it would be a choice between the factory and MOT. I being a payer have been burned on several occasions and the sick feeling in your gut does not disappear.
I think you can end up with a poor job at a shop that is unfamiliar with our setup or does the work without your presence. In my case, both bulkheads were repaired by Extreme in Nacogdoches. The job on both was awful and had to be completely redone at Motorhomes of Texas.
jor
Lots of variables.
That pretty much says it all.........John KNOWS these coaches! ^.^d
I can attest to Pierce's point that a quality local repair can be obtained with diligence and FT owner references. Mine was done locally with top-quality work and at a substantial savings.