My first post, apologies for any errors.
First, thanks to all the contributors to the forum. You have been an invaluable resource.
Had diesel fuel polished Friday 7/27 by Keith Risch 936.462.3764. He works at MOT (formerly at Foretravel) and does fuel and tank cleaning on side. His work has been written about in prior posts.
Keith has use of Atkinson Auto Body lot. Located on rte 259 about a 1/4 mile from junction of rte. 59 and rte 259.
He recently acquired a fuel tank to use in the process and ours was the first coach he has used the tank on. Uses a FuelTec machine with a 5 micron bag filter and a water separator. Pump is 19 gal/min. Pumps fuel thru the 5 micron filter and then thru the water separator.
1. Lowered unit on the passenger side to have the tank at steepest angle possible. Hopefully anything at bottom of tank would move to the passenger side.
2. Filtering #1: Filtered fuel from passenger side fill and returned to driver side for 25 to 30 minutes. hope was to agitate the fuel and whatever was at the bottom of tank.
3. Filtering #2: Then pulled fuel from passenger side fill into his tank. Made certain we got to the bottom of the tank.
4. Drained off some fuel from water separator - good news - no evidence of water.
5. Filtering #3: Pumped fuel from his tank back into coach.
6. Inspected bag filter - some but fortunately not much black material and about a 1/8 inch piece of metal.
Keith was great. He acknowledged that this is a learning process for him and he is working to perfect the process. Cost was $125 + tip. Took about one and half hours.
We had the polishing done for piece of mind. Had microbial growth issue about a year ago. Had stop engine light come on, engine went into safe low RPM mode, then stalled. Needed to replace lift pump and change filters which had evidence of microbial growth.
Have been using Biobor JF for 12 months including using a shocking dose, per Biobor JF label, with no issues. We also replaced fuel filter 3 times during that period with lessening evidence of microbial growth each time.
We were scheduled to be at the factory tomorrow so we scheduled with Keith for his service.
Great report with good photos! There has been a lot of Forum interest in this procedure, and this should help answer many questions. ^.^d
If one has microbial growth, dirt, water, etc in the fuel system this would be a good thing to do, otherwise seems like a waste of money. Doesn't our fuel get polished while we are driving as the injector pump is sending fuel back to the tank anytime the engine is running. and it may get several trips through the filters before it is used. What is your opinion?
I'm thinking under normal conditions, there could be junk on the bottom of the fuel tank that never gets disturbed or sucked up by the intake tube, and therefore never passes through the system filters. Sounds like the polishing procedure attempts to stir up that bottom layer and remove any contaminants contained therein.
Agree probably not necessary unless your coach has a history of fuel problems or algae growth.
The fuel is "getting bad" from something in the tank,it's not coming in bad,if the polishing somehow cleans the tank then it sounds
like a good deal.If the process cleans the tank that's good,if it doesn't it will not solve the problem.If the process does clean the tank
why not just call it tank cleaning instead of fuel polishing?Jerry is right,the fuel is cleaned as it goes thru the 2 filters.If it does not
clean the tank as soon as your "polished fuel"is used your back to square one.
Not trying to downgrade Bob's informative report, or the value (in some cases) of fuel polishing, but I think many fuel problems can be avoided by using a little common sense. From hanging out here at the Forum, and listening to the advice of more experienced members, I have gleaned and adopted a few simple procedures that (IMHO) can help to avoid fuel system troubles:
1. Try to always run on the "top half" of your fuel tank. When you've used half your tank capacity - FILL UP!
2. NEVER use the bottom 1/4 of the tank, except in unavoidable situations. (Remember: generator may not run below 1/4 tank level)
3. Fill up at busy fuel stations where they are more likely to have fresh fuel in their tanks and fresh filters on the pumps.
4. Keep your fuel tank as FULL as possible when parking the coach for extended time periods.
5. Change your fuel filters on a regular basis. (Use the correct manufacturer recommended filters for your engine)
Anybody else have some more "Fuel System Best Practices" to add?
If our coach is sitting for more than a couple months I add a biocide to the nearly full tank and run the engine, the generator and the AquaHot to get treated fuel through the whole system. Generator and AH (on diesel) get run once a month and the coach gets a 30 mile warm up drive ance a month too. As winter comes I fill up with #1 diesel. I sometimes have to wait a little longer than a month in the winter for clear and dry roads but it gets run. The AH preheats the engine before these runs. Starts right up and the engine temp is 65 or more right off the bat.
If we are on a cross country run I like to run between 90 and 140 gallons. I buy 50 gallons every other day or so. I don't see any advantage to hauling 50 extra gallons of fuel.
Well, one advantage (to keeping tank near full) is less room in the tank for air, which supposedly cuts down on condensation forming in the tank.
Another advantage is that it keeps the fuel cooler. We all know the fuel tank gets
very hot after running at highway speeds all day. More fuel in the tank provides a bigger heat sink to absorb/dissipate the heat = cooler fuel going to the engine. This may be more significant on engines that use the fuel to cool the engine ECU.
Plus (on a personal note), having a full fuel tank just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy - like we are prepared for any eventuality. Perhaps a holdover from my (long ago) flying days, when having a bit of extra fuel on board could make a BIG difference in how your day went.
But, if you are concerned about carrying the extra 350 pounds of fuel in your coach that weighs...what...35,000 pounds, then by all means stick with your plan. I have never heard you report on having any fuel problems, so it must be working!
Since we live and usual travel in the Sierras, I may let the tank drop down to well less than a quarter tank. A full tank weights about 1075 lbs so I don't like to carry the extra weight since we are either full throttle or Jake most of the time.. n the other hand, we usually travel through part of Nevada on the way down Highway 395 and they have diesel for up to $0.50/gal less than California so in that case, we fuel up (Carson City). Since we never run the generator anywhere in the Sierras, running on a very low tank is no big deal. I also make sure the water tank is almost empty as water weights even more than diesel and plan on filling it when we get to our destination. Propane is super cheap through our association so I usually fill when the house tank gets topped off and don't worry about the weight.
I always look ahead on www.gasbuddy.com for the least expensive diesel on our route. Since they will be the least expensive, they are also the busiest. Diesel will store almost forever but the busy stations usually have the cleanest tanks and good filters. Not like Europe but the tax on the fuel is much less. I do keep a biocide in the tank.
I check the plastic water trap on our primary filter all the time but can't remember when I've changed either the primary or secondary filters. I do carry a couple of each along with a new see through inspection cap.
It's pretty dry here most of the time and the fuel cap has a cap that keeps a little pressure in the tank so I don't worry about storage plus we use the coach in winter also. I do try and avoid above ground diesel tanks as they are more prone to having water in them because of the temperature changes.
I make sure the priming pump is working when I change oil. Since I installed fuel pressure gauges on both the primary as well as the discharge on the secondary, I can quickly see if there is a restriction.
There may be a micron rating difference on the spin-on filters that fit your engine. Make sure you know the rating for both primary as well as secondary.
Water in the bottom of the secondary filter can rust a hole in it over a period of time. A pinhole leak will spray diesel everywhere. This is a problem with diesel cars and I have seen holes in several 300SD secondary filters.
A U300/280 of our age with have exactly 6 gallons per inch if you stick the tank with the coach level.
Pierce
Chuck,
I agree with 1 through 5, wholeheartedly.
And, similar to Roger and many others, I add a Biocide (BioBor JF - available from West Marine - for me),
but I add a maintenance dose with every fill, even if I'm going to be burning it away in a day or two. The ONLY diesel fuel problem I've ever had in over 20 years was with algae formation. It was strange, but it happened nearly simultaneously with the John Deere diesel (dual saddle tanks) at home and the '98 U270, shortly after ethanol fuels started showing up (don't have any idea if there is a link there). The two fuels (tractor and coach) never had a common source or storage container, but all three tanks had small amounts of water and large amounts of algae, following several months of inactivity. The algae plagued me for some time getting rid of it all (several tank cleanings and then several filter changes. In that process, I
think that I learned that a tank can
look 100% clean, but upon reintroduction of water, the algae magically restarts, if there is not any biocide present. Upon rediscovering algae in the coach, I started using the maintenance dose level with every tank, and I have not had any evidence in filters ever since. I believe that tiny residuals of the algae remain in the tank as plated out contaminates (or some such) and they will start again if the diesel/water interface layer becomes available. Since one picks up a bit of condensation or water contamination with every tank cycle, it just makes more sense to me to always keep an overburden of the biocide in the fuel in the tank.
Absent evidence of contaminants during a fuel filter change or visible sediments in a storage tank, I fail to see the wisdom in fuel polishing. There may be chemical cleaning elements to the process that I'm not aware of. If not, I don't understand the value.
HTH,
Neal
I agree. I also put a maintence dose of biofor in every tankful. Hope it works, makes me feel better. Sort of a different issue, but about ten years ago, we filled up both combines out of a large storage tank. It must have had some contamination (water and algae) because both machines died right in the highway (combines take up all the road anyway). It took us 4 hours to get them started. I like the older Diesel engines, at least after changing filters they might spit and slobber, but at least they will start. These newer engines with the new technology are a nightmare. Just my thought.
No wisdom in fuel polishing, just a waste of money. Tilt the coach to the side where the filler is and look at the bottom with a mirror, etc., to see if there is algae down there. Siphon anything on the bottom off
When you replace the fuel filters, don't screw them down tight but leave a turn loose. Use the hand or electric primer to fill the filters until all the bubbles stop coming out and then tighten. Do the same for the secondary. Some older diesels are self priming, some are not. With a Case or Mercedes, I crack a line at the injector and then turn it over. This works really well on the hard to prime rotary injection pumps some coaches have like Perkins, Case, VW.
Never, never use ether on a warm or hot engine! Easy to break a ring or bend a rod.
Pierce
I had Keith do mine about 2 months ago. We got less than a cup of water out and a little dirt but overall the tank was very clean. Keith noted it was the cleanest one he had done to date. I felt pretty good since this thing is almost 20 years old. I am religious though about changing my filters and trying to buy fuel from major high volume stations. Keith does a great job and really knows his stuff.
I agree with most of the above except that biodiesel will degrade in storage whereas 100% petroleum diesel (petrodiesel) is almost "eternal".
Biodiesel is subject to oxidation of the bio component and also is hygroscopic in that it attracts water. At a certain percent the fuel will no longer hold the water and it will be present as free water. That's when the algae problems begin as they live on the water/fuel boundary.
Biodiesel will react with many metals such as brass, zinc, copper, lead, tin, & bronze and this will speed up it's degradation.
So, buy your diesel as pertodiesel if you can. Buy from high volume stations. Use a biocide. Inspect for water. Carry several primary fuel filters just in case and rotate your stock. Keep a full tank as much as possible especially in storage so the volume of air in the tank is as small as possible to counteract expansion/contraction.
Keith
We have the original fuel filter system on our 2003 U320 coach. In the clear glass (with screen) pre filter, we had several black clumps, (maybe 5-6), about the size of a pencil eraser.
While having our coach serviced at MOT, after hours when service bays closed, we had Keith Risch (936.462.3764) polish our fuel as a preventive measure and for peace of mind. (Service managers allow Keith to do fuel polishing after hours on MOT property, and can add it to the other service work on the bill).
We use fuel treatment on about every other fillup, half the time Howes, and half the time PowerServe in the white bottle. We had zero water in fuel. The white "sock" 5 micron filter picked up some grainy material, and a very small amount of fine black grains that were likely dead algae.
Another Foretravel owner "camping" after hours in the lot watched the process, and elected to have Keith do his coach after ours. The 5 micron filter showing some staining of extemely fine material, likely dead algae, plus a pencil eraser sized piece of rubber.
Both the other owner and I agree that this service is great for peace of mind, and to establish a baseline of a clean tank and clean fuel to maintain going forward.
By maintain going forward I mean keeping a near full tank when possible to reduce condensation, using stations with quick turnover of fuel, and using fuel treatments that help remove any moisture.
Note: in the 21 months we have owned the coach, we have never used biocide, just fuel additives. I intend to acquire some biocide for occasional use, especially when staying extended periods in high humidity areas.
I know opinions vary on fuel treatments and on fuel polishing. From my personal perspective, fuel treatments are a preventitive measure that I intend to continue. And the fuel polishing Keith offers is well worth it, so we KNOW the condition of our fuel and tank.
If you are in the Nacogdochess area I highly recommend Keith and his service. (see post # 1 for details on Keith's method and equipment).