We finally were able to dewinterize our '92 U225 and go for a shakedown cruise before starting Year 2 on the road. However, beset by problems already. Here is the chronology so far:
Wednesday 8/22: new batteries installed all around. Workaholic for Engine, two yellow top Optimas for house (same ratings as previous batteries)
Thursday 8/23: Set sail 25 miles up the road to Candy Hill Campground in Winchester, VA for a four night stay to include some maintenance work
Friday 8/24: Drove her up to the Cummins shop on the north side of Winchester. New water pump, new fan drive tensioner, new belt, oil change, new fuel filter. Returned to Candy Hill
Saturday 8/25: Noticed house lights dimming late last night. Turned off the salesman switch to minimize any power drain. Did some research and figured it might be a bad power converter (Power Source PC-75)
Today: Checked the battery readings. Engine reads 12.53, House reads 6.76. Disconnected from shorepower and tried to start the generator (propane which uses the engine battery to start). It wouldn't start so tried to start the engine, it wouldn't start either. She makes the usual noise when the key is in the accessory position, and the fuel and volt gauges come on, but when you turn the key to start, nothing.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Deb and Jeff
In this case, make sure your boost switch is off when trying to start the main engine. Clean the terminals as your new batteries and 12.53 engine battery voltage indicate the batteries are 80 percent or better. Check voltages with shore power plugged in. New battery installation (mis-installation) is probably the cause of your problems. That's my #1 guess. No problems before the battery changeout?
Shore power usually charges only the house batteries. 6.76 is just about dead. Get them charged quickly before damage is done to them.
Pierce
I would agree with Pierce, check & double check the wiring for all batteries. The Optimas (at least in our coach), are the STARTING BATTERIES and the Lifelines are HOUSE. You should see 13.4/13.7 on fully charged batteries, both start & house. On ours, both sets being AGMs, our monitor shows pretty much the same. Is that brand of battery used (Workaholic) a AGM? Could make a difference.
Measured the batteries with shore power on, same readings a before, 12.53 on the Engine and 6.76 on the house batteries. The old batteries all died over the winter, but no problems prior to that. Was hoping to get the generator going to charge the House batteries by may have to pull them and take them to Auto Zone.
Any thoughts on why the accessories running off the engine batter will work but she won't turn over?
Appreciate the help very much.
Deb and Jeff
Mite re-read my post above; I missed the ones in a fully charged battery. Just re-did the post. (Thanks, John! ^.^d )
The pic shows what our Optimas show while charging:
Check that the breaker for the inverter/charger, converter or what ever charges the house batteries has not tripped. Leaving the inverter on without shore power or generator will run down the house batteries, especially if there is a large power draw, such as convection over, etc.
An option is to jump start the generator using your toad battery-- easy to do in the generator compartment. Just expose the large positive lug on the generator and any piece of metal on generator for ground.
BUT, if your house bank was not charged by shore power, generator will be the same.
That does not explain why the engine won't start with mid 12 VDC chassis battery. What does the dash voltmeter show when you try to start?
Checked the configuration of the old batteries vs the new installation.
There is a slight difference in how the techs installed the new house batteries (note the red wire is on the right plus terminal in the old configuration and on the left hand plus terminal on the new configuration.
Pictures to follow.
Brett, on the dash it's reading at the very low end of the green
The way the yellow batteries are hooked up is electrically OK-- just OK. It is not contributing to your problem.
Better for the positive to come off one battery and the ground off the other-- but that is fine-tuning.
Just spoke to a rep from Best Converter, he is recommending changing the the converter and thinks there might be a an alternator problem. Any thoughts?
We had a PC-75 converter/charger in our coach when we first bought it, along with a separate Inverter. The PC-75 totally destroyed the 2 flooded cell 8D house batteries that were in the coach, due to over charging them. So I would recommend you upgrade your battery charging device ASAP. I'm also guessing it is the cause of your present problem.
Treat your house batteries to a good modern 4-stage battery charger/convertor, and they will love you for it!
The alternator doesn't start the engine, the starter and start batteries do. So without the engine running, impossible to tell.
Get rid of that converter and get a real charger.
Not sure why your engine won't start. It it getting fuel? Are you sure it it?
Your house bank is most likely dead now, or new to it. You will most likely have to change the house batteries. They may charge, but unlikely to last long.
Check the specific gravity of each cell with a hydromerter. Make sure the cells are topped off with distilled water.
Check all connections to ensure a good tight connection.
Check that the shore power is getting power to the converter.
Sorry all will cost you money. But sounds like it was coming anyway. Hope you get it straight.
X2..From your pics, the Optima batteries are the starting batteries :(old were blue tops, yellow tops are the new ones). The big, black ones are the house batteries. I don't know if it makes make any difference, but, as far as I know, you've got the wrong starting batteries; we use these:
Bob and Julie,
Thanks for the inputs. Fuel shouldn't be a problem. Tank is full and we just had the filters changed. The issue is she won't even turn over. There is obviously some power getting to the instrument panel, but absolutely nothing when trying to start her.
Hoping to get the new converter sent out tomorrow so at least that part will be ok :)
Since you've got the description backwards, have you tried to start the gen set off the boost switch?
Check engine ground and chassis ground wires
NEVER my first suspect that two things went out at the same time-- alternator and converter.
Will try the boost. Where are the ground wires located?
Mike,
Tried the boost and the generator started.
The gennie takes less juice to start than the the engine, that's why I asked for the GS first. ^.^d
As far as the interior lights going dim at night, that would indicate your house batteries are low. Did you put a voltmeter on the house batteries?
Do you hear a click when you plug into shore power? Do you have 110V at your outlets with the inverter off? Does your AC voltmeter indicate about 115 volts? Did you check your 110 circuit breakers? There is a possibility your transfer switch may not be working.
I installed inexpensive 12V voltmeters on the dash next to me so I can check batteries for voltage if at home, on the road, with solar on, shore power, generator, etc. It lets you stay well ahead of the game and can save expensive batteries and avoid being stuck somewhere on the road. Top is house, bottom is engine batteries. This is while parked with solar on and partially discharged batteries in the morning with the solar controller in "bulk" mode.
This still does not explain why your engine won't turn over with good engine batteries.
Pierce
a couple more things. Cummins also steam cleaned the engine of Friday. When we were looking for possible causes for the battery issues last night we also discovered a panel on the engine had been knocked loose. This is mounted on the wall closest to the bottom of the bed. Couldn't tell you id they did it or the techs who installed some new insulation under the bed last week. No idea if this has any relevance.
Even with the generator running, if the converter/charger is kaput, your house batteries will still not be getting a charge. Check voltage at the house battery terminal. If charging, should show over 14 volts.
If not charging, check the outlet that the PC-75 is plugged into for good 110V. No 110V - check breaker box (like Pierce suggested)
If charger/converter is totally dead, then to charge the house battery you will have to either:
1. Start the engine (charge house battery with alternator through the isolator)
OR
2. Plug in a separate stand-alone 110V battery charger hooked up to house battery
OR
3. Wait on your new converter/charger
That panel is your Bendix air cruise control/throttle setup. Has nothing to do with your electrical problems.
You DO need to get the panel secured properly to the bulkhead. If anything on that panel gets damaged, you will have no throttle (bad situation).
But, reattach before driving-- it IS your throttle!
With the generator on, the yellow tops have gone from 7.76 up to 7.25 so far. The Black battery is still at 12.53
Yep, will certainly get that reattached today. :-)
Put a new insulation package on your list:
With some speculation here on "which batteries are which", please tell us which is house and which is chassis.
8D battery
2 Optima batteries
And, you need to troubleshoot your converter. If OE, it will be plugged into an outlet in that basement compartment. Have you verified that the outlet is hot? Converter plugged in?
What converter is it-- newer ones/smart ones will NOT attempt to charge a deeply discharged battery.
Mike,
Already on the list. Under the bed has been redone, plan to get the sides done later this year :-)
Brett,
We were told by the previous owner that the Optimas are the house batteries and the 8D is the engine battery. He rewired the monitor so it shows the engine battery reading (~12.3 or so). The voltmeter reads 12.54 at the 8D. With the generator running, the Optimas have gone from 6.76 to 7.33.
I did crawl into the bay and verify the converter was plugged in and the outlet live.
We have someone bringing a charger to see if we can save the Optimas.
Randy from Best Converter is recommending a Boondocker BD 1275C
Your battery arrangement is just the opposite of what "we" would expect, but whatever...
Sounds like the PC-75 may be trying to charge the yellow tops (which you have identified as the house batteries). Even so, you will be much better off with a new modern 4-stage charger/converter.
Randy at Best Converter is a straight shooter. He will not mislead you, or try to "over sell" you more than you need. We bought a earlier version (PM4B-75) of that same unit from him in late 2013. Same price, too! It worked great maintaining our 2 new AGM8D house batteries, right up until the time we made another upgrade to a single combined inverter/charger.
Let the gennie run, make sure your propane does not get below 1/4 tank. The black (house) should be charging. Not sure if the GS charges both banks, I know ours does, but knowing the previous owner, (Brett) ,he could have modified it.
If the converter is not working, running the generator will do nothing for charging the batteries. A separate temporary charger is the correct answer.
And, your propane generator will run until you are totally out of propane. While it is a liquid LP generator, it will continue to run on either liquid or if out of liquid on vapor as long as there is any vapor pressure. In fact many of us converted the liquid LP to vapor LP generator to prevent long hydrocarbon contaminants from clogging the regulator.
I carry a charger capable of up to 100 Amp charge - might be worth a trip to parts store or big box store - buy a charger and use it to charge each bank individually
Tim Fiedler
Sure Start Soft Start (http://www.gen-pro.biz) - home of SureStart soft starters TCER Direct (http://www.tcerdirect.com) - home of Generac Approved Aluminum and Copper TCER Composite cable generator-gas-prod (http://www.generatorgasproducts.com) - home of X-Riser Gas Risers for PE installation Call me at 630 240-9139
Gen-Pro
Have turned the generator off. Back on shore power. When I turned the generator off, they read around 7.4. Back on shore power they have dropped to 7.25.
Thanks Brett and Tim for good information. We will definitely follow up on that. We have a tech bringing over a charger. Will keep you posted.
Have you tried to start the engine w/the boost switch?
Not yet Mike, but we will.
Turned the key, and nothing...
Once batteries are charged, you can get into diagnosing the no start.
Since it started right after "watering the engine", wonder what else that affected??? Water and electrical components don't play nice with each other.
Sorry Jeff, I'd hoped for the best. Let us know how (and why) things 'go south'. ^.^d
Good question Brett. Just seems odd that it started right after the service and now won't even turn over.
Mike, will certainly let everyone know what is going on.
She's Alive! Our friend with the charger came out and the batteries are charged and appear OK. The new converter has been ordered and will be installed Tuesday. Confirmed that the yellow tops are the house batteries and the 8D is the engine battery.
Meanwhile, the starting problem has been resolved thanks to another thread on the forum that provided the solution. A major newbie mistake on my part. It seems that while parking her last time I didn't put her in Neutral. I checked an hour or so ago and discovered she was still in Drive. As soon as she went into N, she started right up. :-)
Thanks once again to all of you for taking the time to help. It was truly appreciated.
Jeff and Deb
Ain't life grand. 👍
That it is :D
Excellent.
And, to really put your mind at ease, when you started the engine and went to higher idle (like 1,100 RPM or so), what did the dash voltmeter read-- that will tell you if the alternator is behaving.
Now you can RELAX.
Ha. I would probably have just not replied.
Admitting your mistakes helps other newbies ^.^d
Rick and Rhonda,
Thought about blaming Deb, but realized that would have been an even bigger mistake :D
phred,
Thanks, that helps ease the bruised ego a bit :)
We tell our friends that the movie RV isn't a comedy, for us it's a documentary
How true, and an absolute favorite!
Don't feel bad, Brett installed a 'secret switch' that cut the power to the Allison, making it non-starting. Took me a number of times to remember to flip the switch when starting. At least, no one can ever steal the coach! ^.^d
I did the same thing to the fuel shut off on 3208 cat
Good lessons learned :)
Thanks once again everyone.
I have no idea how you can get a 12 volt battery down to 6.xx volts.
Aside from that, is your transmission in gear?
Disregard the transmission question. I just read that it was indeed the problem.
I still think the PO had things VERY CONFUSED: Brett & I had a talk yesterday and both confirmed that, indeed, the Optimas start the coach and the Lifelines (black) are the house. Why the PO re-wired the dash monitor is beyond me! ::)
We agree. Hope to have Brett look at things when we get to TX later this year if he is available.
Very easy to verify.
Remove the ground/negative connection from either battery bank and see what does/doesn't work.
If it goes kaput better have a long rope handy.
Roland
Panel had been secured. Going to add a couple extra screws just to make sure it stays where it should :))