Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: Dub on August 27, 2018, 01:51:40 pm
Title: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: Dub on August 27, 2018, 01:51:40 pm
I realize that usually the GFCI circuit breaker is located in the bathroom.. Not on my 270.. I have been in every cabinet from top to bottom and every inch of the walls.. I left there and went from the bedroom to the front of the coach and have found no receptacle circuit breaker. I don't know that I have an issue because the only plug in's I have used are in the kitchen. Without a circuit breaker it has me skeptical of trying my other receptacle's, I do not like being shocked even a little. Maybe someone could give me just a clue.
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on August 27, 2018, 01:57:49 pm
I would try the other outlets (they won't shock you if you've got a tripped GFI). Tracing the one's that are dead might lead you to the 'Mystery GFI outlet'. ^.^d In our coach, the GFI is in the bathroom, but painted black, so it took me a while to realize where it was! GFIs do wear out, and I've seen them in garages where someone stored crap in front and tripped the GFI!
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: Dub on August 27, 2018, 02:12:09 pm
Beam alarm says they are all in the bathroom.. if this one is she is hid pretty darn well, black or white. I will plug something in to all my receptacles but if there is an issue, no breaker to reset.
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: bdale on August 27, 2018, 02:24:15 pm
On mine, there is a plug in the storage bay and another on the exterior passenger side wall that are both on the bathroom GFCI circuit. Someone could have moved it to one of those for some reason.
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on August 27, 2018, 02:51:18 pm
Beam alarm says they are all in the bathroom.. if this one is she is hid pretty darn well, black or white. I will plug something in to all my receptacles but if there is an issue, no breaker to reset.
The receptacle is all brown and really hard to spot to the right of the sink even though it's right in front of you. Took me about an hour of searching.
Pierce
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on August 27, 2018, 02:57:24 pm
The receptacle is all brown and really hard to spot to the right of the sink even though it's right in front of you. Took me about an hour of searching.
If you're sitting on the John, there it is, on the right. ^.^d
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: Rich Bowman on August 27, 2018, 03:41:34 pm
It sounds like you don't have any non-functional outlets that you know of right now. You are just trying to find the gfi outlet in case you need to reset it?
You may not have one. A Previous Owner may have removed and replaced with a regular outlet. In which case, you should find out where it was and put in a new one.
You can buy a small plug-in tester at Lowes that will tell you if an outlet is wired correctly and also test to see If the circuit is gfi protected. I just tried mine and it will not trip a regular breaker, only a gfi protection device. If you do use it, you may be able to hear the gfi pop when you push the tester button.
You can also put gfi breakers directly in your breaker box to protect an entire circuit but they are more expensive than gfi outlets which do the sme job but only protect the outlets downstream from them.
Rich
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: Dub on August 27, 2018, 04:02:16 pm
On mine, there is a plug in the storage bay and another on the exterior passenger side wall that are both on the bathroom GFCI circuit. Someone could have moved it to one of those for some reason.
Will check those plugs... After checking them I don't have any non functioning outlets Rich and if I don't find this booger I will install one. I have doubt's of mine being in the bath Pierce but again I will get on all 4's with a flash light and go over it again.
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on August 27, 2018, 04:34:41 pm
Will check those plugs... After checking them I don't have any non functioning outlets Rich and if I don't find this booger I will install one. I have doubt's of mine being in the bath Pierce but again I will get on all 4's with a flash light and go over it again.
No need to get on all fours. It's waist high to the right of the sink. Probably most used as a hair dryer or electric razor outlet.
Pierce
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: Pamela & Mike on August 27, 2018, 05:05:39 pm
Dub,
If a P/O removed the OEM GFCI receptacle that was in the bathroom vanity and replaced it with a standard receptacle I will be a lot easier to just install a GFCI breaker in the breaker box at the foot of the bed. In fact look in your breaker box and see if that circuit breaker that feeds the bath has been changed out already. The rest of the outside plugs usually are trained off this one receptacle.
Mike
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: Twig on August 27, 2018, 05:38:29 pm
Why do you need a GFI? It's code to install one near a sink but that doesn't mean you HAVE to have one. The breaker is for THAT OUTLET only. The only reason other receptacles go out when the GFI trips is because that's how the wiring goes. Several outlets are tethered. You'll notice that only a few outlets go out when it trips. So.........that means the rest of the outlets have no GFI. ALL circuits are safe guarded by the 15 amp breakers in the big box. Your PO probably got rid of it because they become weak over time and trip who knows why. I took mine out. Again.......this is just my opinion.
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: John and Stacey on August 27, 2018, 05:45:29 pm
I replace my garage wall mounted GFI every other year as thats where our 2nd refrigerator is connected. With the constant cycling of the refrigerator compressor they do not last. Had one surprise when I came home from a 3 week vacation, do not want another. Also where I store my coach had a GFI that kept tripping...Took it out and no more problems.
John
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on August 27, 2018, 08:03:28 pm
With the constant cycling of the refrigerator compressor they do not last. Had one surprise when I came home from a 3 week vacation, do not want another. Also where I store my coach had a GFI that kept tripping...Took it out and no more problems
That's not a good idea to pull ANY GFI, you're looking for trouble, trust me. The most common failure (besides wearing out, like us), is too much demand on the circuit. Garages are the worst case: you've got a freezer, a garage door opener, a irrigation controller, and who knows what more. When you get start-up, it's a huge draw, and the GFI does it's job: trips. Water and electricity do not get along, and without a GFI, you'll be the first to know. :'(
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: jcus on August 27, 2018, 08:28:18 pm
When GFI's were required: 1971 Receptacles within 15 feet of pool walls 1971 All equipment used with storable swimming pools 1973 All outdoor receptacles 1974 Construction Sites 1975 Bathrooms, 120-volt pool lights, and fountain equipment 1978 Garages, spas, and hydromassage tubs 1978 Outdoor receptacles above 6ft.6in. grade access exempted 1984 Replacement of non-grounding receptacles with no grounding conductor allowed 1984 Pool cover motors 1984 Distance of GFCI protection extended to 20 feet from pool walls 1987 Unfinished basements 1987 Kitchen countertop receptacles within 6 feet of sink 1987 Boathouses 1990 Crawlspaces (with exception for sump pumps or other dedicated equip.) 1993 Wet bar countertops within 6 feet of sink 1993 Any receptacle replaced in an area presently requiring GFCI 1996 All kitchen counters – not just those within 6 feet of sink 1996 All exterior receptacles except dedicated de-icing tape receptacle 1996 Unfinished accessory buildings at or below grade 1999 Exemption for dedicated equipment in crawlspace removed
Since all my houses have been old, never had a GFI. I have heard that certain refrigerators, will trip a GFI. I had an inverter with a gfi and it tripped on my Samsung. Replaced it with regular receptacle and had no more problems. But having a gfi or grounded type plug is safer for many cases. An overload on any circuit should trip the breaker in the distribution panel, not sure a gfi will trip because of normal high current draw.
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: craneman on August 27, 2018, 08:36:52 pm
I'll let the experts have the say on the load issue. My understanding is only a short to ground would trip the GFI load shouldn't.
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: SteveB on August 27, 2018, 08:47:42 pm
My understanding is that a GFCI outlet is designed to protect your life. It was not designed to protect against a circuit overload:
A GFCI monitors the amount of current flowing from hot to neutral. If there is any imbalance, it trips the circuit. The GFCI senses a mismatch as small as 4 or 5 milliamps, and it can react as quickly as one-thirtieth of a second. That's a key specification, because at around 10 milliamps, human muscles "freeze" from electrical overload, meaning that you're unable to let go of an object that's causing a shock; just two seconds at that level of current can cause death [source: ELCOSH].
Please be careful out there.
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: Travelin' Man (RIP) on August 27, 2018, 08:48:52 pm
I used GFI breakers in an old house we own on Cape Cod and there was one that would trip under load, when the both the refrigerator and microwave were on.
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: SteveB on August 27, 2018, 08:59:38 pm
I used GFI breakers in an old house we own on Cape Cod and there was one that would trip under load, when the both the refrigerator and microwave were on.
T-Man, you are absolutely correct, but the primary reason for the GFCI is to protect human life. As stated earlier by several folks they get old and weak and will trip when they shouldn't. I would consider replacing old GFCI outlets as a routine maintenance item.
Here is a very good source of info regarding RV electrical safety: RV Safety | No~Shock~Zone (http://noshockzone.org/category/rv-safety/)
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: jcus on August 27, 2018, 09:07:04 pm
Does a GFCI receptacle provide overcurrent protection? - Home Improvement... (https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/81251/does-a-gfci-receptacle-provide-overcurrent-protection) Think this answers it: GFI's, except when in distribution panel do not offer overcurrent protection.
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: Old phart phred on August 27, 2018, 09:09:11 pm
2017 nec all gfci no exceptions in a garage, shop, or coach house at all. Outlet 16' up on the ceiling or dedicated for a garage door operator no go. Dedicated Outlet for fridge or anything else no go. Outlet 44' from door no go. Ask me why I am going to do my own?
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on August 27, 2018, 09:15:13 pm
If you are wired for 20 amp receptacles, note how much better they are made. It takes a bit of effort to plug something in one. They grip the "prongs" better so there is less chance of resistance heat buildup when drawing a lot of current.
Pierce
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: Old phart phred on August 27, 2018, 09:29:25 pm
Per local code all devices in a garage or shop get 20 amp circuits and outlets, even the led Luminares (lights) no exceptions. This is known as crazy stupid.
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on August 27, 2018, 09:53:28 pm
When GFI's were required: But haviAn overload on any circuit should trip the breaker in the distribution panel, not sure a gfi will trip because of normal high current draw.
A overload will trip a older GFI, and NOT crawl through and trip the breaker. The load is one of the big deals; any electric motor is going to draw like heck upon start-up, you get two starting at once and the GFI will trip, seen it a million times. So, it's almost like a GFI should be replaced often if a big load is on the circuit: electricians & HOs are infamous for just adding to a 15/20 amp circuit, on and on. In my homebuilding days, I'd make sure we had not only GFIs for high use/wet areas, but have the sparkies give me dedicated GFI protected circuits for future use. 15/20 amps is nothing, it's easy to overload them. Same with coaches, you add this and that to the 15/20 amp circuit without adding up the draw with everything on at once, and 'Ka blewie'.
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: kb0zke on August 27, 2018, 09:56:53 pm
A gfi outlet protects all outlets downstream from it. On my coach the gfi outlet is in the bathroom (the only outlet there). The kitchen outlets, basement outlets, and outside outlet are all protected by that one gfi. I had to replace it recently, and the new outlet came with a sheet of stickers to put on each protected outlet. I have one of those testers that Rich mentioned. After the new outlet was installed and tested, I had Jo Ann stay by the outlet while I went around tripping it with the tester. Each outlet that tripped got a sticker.
GFI breakers are usually marked in some way to indicate that they are GFI. Might be a different color handle or GFI on the handle.
As the name implies, Ground Fault Interrupter, they are designed to trip whenever there is any current flowing from hot to ground. They do require a ground to work. In fact, earlier this year I was with a guy who tried to put one in on an old, two-wire system (no ground). After figuring out which dirty wire was the hot and which was the neutral, then getting enough wire out of the box so he could actually attach it out in the open, then convincing everything to go back into the too-small box, it wouldn't work. The little elves inside the GFI noticed that there was no ground wire and wouldn't let any current pass. Smart little critters.
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: jcus on August 27, 2018, 10:08:29 pm
A overload will trip a older GFI, and NOT crawl through and trip the breaker. The load is one of the big deals; any electric motor is going to draw like heck upon start-up, you get two starting at once and the GFI will trip, seen it a million times. So, it's almost like a GFI should be replaced often if a big load is on the circuit: electricians & HOs are infamous for just adding to a 15/20 amp circuit, on and on. In my homebuilding days, I'd make sure we had not only GFIs for high use/wet areas, but have the sparkies give me dedicated GFI protected circuits for future use. 15/20 amps is nothing, it's easy to overload them. Same with coaches, you add this and that to the 15/20 amp circuit without adding up the draw with everything on at once, and 'Ka blewie'.
Mike looking at a GFI diagram. and see why current from hot to neutral will trip a GFI, but see no way it could trip if no current from hot to neutral. Can you explain?
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: FourTravelers on August 27, 2018, 10:09:27 pm
Does a GFCI receptacle provide overcurrent protection? - Home Improvement... (https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/81251/does-a-gfci-receptacle-provide-overcurrent-protection) Think this answers it: GFI's, except when in distribution panel do not offer overcurrent protection.
Correct...........GFCI breakers offer branch circuit over current protection, GFCI receptacles do not.
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: jcus on August 27, 2018, 10:59:00 pm
A gfi outlet protects all outlets downstream from it. On my coach the gfi outlet is in the bathroom (the only outlet there). The kitchen outlets, basement outlets, and outside outlet are all protected by that one gfi. I had to replace it recently, and the new outlet came with a sheet of stickers to put on each protected outlet. I have one of those testers that Rich mentioned. After the new outlet was installed and tested, I had Jo Ann stay by the outlet while I went around tripping it with the tester. Each outlet that tripped got a sticker.
GFI breakers are usually marked in some way to indicate that they are GFI. Might be a different color handle or GFI on the handle.
As the name implies, Ground Fault Interrupter, they are designed to trip whenever there is any current flowing from hot to ground. They do require a ground to work. In fact, earlier this year I was with a guy who tried to put one in on an old, two-wire system (no ground). After figuring out which dirty wire was the hot and which was the neutral, then getting enough wire out of the box so he could actually attach it out in the open, then convincing everything to go back into the too-small box, it wouldn't work. The little elves inside the GFI noticed that there was no ground wire and wouldn't let any current pass. Smart little critters.
When I remodeled my bathroom in my old 2 wire no ground house, code required me to install gfi receptacles that did not require a ground.
Will a GFCI receptacle that is not grounded still function properly? (http://www.mcgarryandmadsen.com/inspection/Blog/Entries/2015/10/18_Will_a_GFCI_receptacle_that_is_not_grounded_still_function_properly.html)
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: Old phart phred on August 27, 2018, 11:11:44 pm
So they can function on a hot/ nuetral inbalance with no ground? Darn spell checker.
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: jcus on August 27, 2018, 11:52:20 pm
So they can function on a hot/ nuetral inbalance with no ground? Darn spell checker.
The electrician that signed off on my bath renovation, [had to pull a permit] said it only looks at current through neutral, and through hot, and if a difference will trip. He said if my body diverts any current from either wire, it will trip, hopefully saving me from a bad shock or worse. and a ground is not necessary for it to work.
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: Jerry Whiteaker on August 28, 2018, 12:31:01 am
Dub, Maybe a previous owner got tired of the GFCI tripping and replaced it with a regular duplex outlet (should be 20 amp rated). Doing that would lose the GFCI feature, but the circuit should still be overload protected by a 20 amp breaker in the inverter fed sub panel. If you want GFCI protection just replace the bath sink outlet with a 20 amp rated GFCI duplex outlet. The primary purpose of a breaker is to protect the wiring (prevent an overload causing the wire to get hot and starting a fire). The wiring and breaker should be sized accordingly. On my coach the outlets in the bedroom do not have GFCI.
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: Old phart phred on August 28, 2018, 12:46:54 am
Huh did not know that, a few of things I don't know/fully understand in the ac electrical world. Can't possibly know it all. So I ask questions. Power factor corrections are somewhat Greek to me.
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: Dub on August 28, 2018, 01:03:28 pm
I found that a receptacle had been removed and not replaced on the bedroom side of the wall that separates the bed and bath down low just a few inches from the floor,which may have been where it was located originally, I have to go in there and be sure of the state of the wire ends anyway and will install a GFI in that location.. I learned from the replies and appreciate them.
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: P. Wyatt Sabourin on August 28, 2018, 01:46:27 pm
I believe that Foretravel SAVED MONEY by installed one GFCI receptacle in the bathroom with passed through wiring to five more duplex receptacles (stove, near kitchen sink, kitchen table, hutch, and passenger side front table). This way, 6 duplex receptacles are GFCI protected with just one GFCI receptacle. To make trouble shooting easier, what would be wrong with replacing the five non-GFCI receptacles with five GFCI receptacles and rewiring at the bathroom GFCI receptacle to pass through power which is NOT GFCI protected.
I was not OK with having all kitchen receptacles on one breaker so ran another circuit to a new duplex receptacle below the kitchen counter top and added a new 20 amp breaker in the power panel under the bed. This allows running a coffee maker, a toaster, and a blender simultaneously.
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: Neal Pillsbury on August 28, 2018, 01:55:45 pm
Quote
@ Dub: ................Maybe someone could give me just a clue.
I see a few misperceptions about GFCI outlets and Breakers in this thread, so a few comments:
There are GFCI OUTLETS that are motor rated and others are not.
There are GFCI BREAKERS that are motor rated and others are not.
The differences between breakers and outlet GFCI's leads to misinterpretations about GFCI overcurrent and GFCI age related trips.
GFCI OUTLETS are often mis-wired because DIY's don't follow the installation directions. There are input terminals and there are output terminals (that protect downstream loads).See:
GFCI OUTLETS (properly wired) protect against ground currents (personal shock) at the outlet itself AND the downstream outlets, not just the downstream outlets as stated here in several places.
GFCI OUTLETS do not provide over-current protection. They only provide hot to neutral imbalance protection, usually in the 5 to 10 milliamp imbalance (or greater) range. Running two downstream loads simultaneously may case a GFCI OUTLET to trip, but that is a different issue....it is not an overcurrent trip.
Only GFCI BREAKERS, in your entrance panel and inverter power panel, provide simultaneous GFCI and overload protection.
Inexpensive GFCI's BREAKERS AND OUTLETS are prone to "nuisance" tripping for a whole host of reasons: For Example:
Ganged GFCI's (for example: in storage facilities that only have a GFCI OUTLET choice) and then you have a critical load (like an absorption refrigerator) plugged into another (ganged) GFCI OUTLET way downstream (but electrically, side by side, in parallel) in the coach.
Motor starts (washers, dryers, AC's, pumps, furnaces in particular)
Motor age and dielectric leakage paths that creep in with age.
GFCI OUTLETS do not have code-driven labelling standards (one has to test each outlet to know for sure).
Somewhere along I became aware that GFCI BREAKERS and OUTLETS work equally well on two and three wire (older wiring meets NEC code, without having to have a wired ground). (jcus provided a link that explains this nicely):
Better grade GFCI OUTLETS have an LED indicator whereby one can tell at a glance if it is tripped or not (LED light on, not tripped........light off, tripped).
I feel that FT designed things right by using a GFCI OUTLET in the bathroom, where proximity to the sink affords the best protection and also allows ease of detection and reset if the GFCI has been tripped. It would have been nice if FT had used more easily detected (TRIPPED) GFCI OUTLETS, but it is still better than having to lie on the floor at the foot of the bed to see whether a breaker panel mounted GFCI BREAKER has been tripped and needs to be reset. But, in the ideal world, I also agree with Wyatt that too many loads and too much faith is placed on a single GFCI outlet in the bathroom. Properly documented, it is better design to run several outlet wires independently off individual GFCI BREAKERS. Also nothing wrong with rewiring to provide GFCI OUTLET protection at each outlet, using the bathroom GFCI to protect only itself and using each other GFCI OUTLET wired to protect only itself (parallel all line terminals).
Since GFCI useful lifetime is generally on the order of a half dozen years, it's a pretty safe bet that a used coach's GFCI is not OEM and may have been replaced by a standard OUTLET (contrary to code) or may have been mis-wired, your best bet is to thoroughly research the theory behind GFCI protection before you change out outlets willy-nilly, or have an electrician check it out for you, if not clearly resolved.
[/list]
HTH, Neal
Title: Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker
Post by: Barry & Cindy on August 30, 2018, 06:44:59 pm
Good description Neal.
I add that most RV outlets are not resident-standard in that they are not in a box, don't use mounting screws, don't have separate covers and the wire connections are not bare wire inserted or under a screw. RVs are allowed an all-in-one outlet with daisy-chain insulation piercing connections. So replacing them with standard outlets usually means routing out the cabinet, mounting a box and extending the existing Romex so it reaches to the new outlet connection, all a bit of work.