Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: Journey, Roam, Explore on September 07, 2018, 09:47:27 pm
Title: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Journey, Roam, Explore on September 07, 2018, 09:47:27 pm
Well, the previous owner said the fuel hoses were replaced, and yes they were. But since we purchased her, the smell of diesel has permeated the bays. Now I am particulary sensitive to that smell, and don't much like it. Thought it was from a diesel spill maybe, or a loose connection. Was getting ready to pull the tank anyway since the smell is pretty strong. Took a look at the hose today and found that it is a Gates Plant master hose, 19b. Made in Mexico. Here is what the web site has to say about application.... Air and water applications requiring maximum flexibility in any industry, including mining, construction, agriculture, vehicle repair and in-plant operations. Outstanding resistance to heat and ozone. Suitable for light agricultural spraying, such as dilute solutions of herbicides and this Manufacturer: Gates Specification No. 3219AR Recommended for: Applications requiring a premium grade braided hose, with excellent flexibility and maximum resistance to air, water, petroleum oils, gasoline, kerosene and fuel oil (to 120°F) and lubricating oils (to 212°F). Excellent weather and ozone resistance. NOTE: Not recommended for constant contact with fuels.
So the good thing is.... I found out why my bay smells like diesel fuel so strongly. The bad... I have to spend some cash to fix this now instead of down the road. Now I don't know who put this hose in, but it just goes to show you that you can't be to careful on checking things out. If something doesn't look or feel right investigate. This hose will fail at some point and it could be catastrophic. Just one more thing on this coach that I am finding out was not done right. Live and learn. So the question is what hose? I have read through the various posts on the forum about this topic. I know what size and how long (I think ) I need to order. Not sure if my fittings are resuable or not. Will have to pull them and see. My plan is to pull the tank out the passanger side, and already in the process of that. Door is off, will pull the hinges and flanges out tomorrow. will use a come along to pull it hooked up to my jeep bumper. Once out. The tank is pretty much empty, maybe 4 gallons total so now is the time. Don't have any need to use the coach for a while... What would be good is a size of each hose I will need. Also the difference between parker crimp on vs field attachable fittings for diesel fuel, if anyone knows from actual use would be appreciated.
Photo attached. Thanks Bob
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Chuck Pearson on September 07, 2018, 10:04:03 pm
Ay caramba. Air hose. Sheesh. Gotta go.
The tank should be pretty light seeing as it's empty, don't think a come a long will be necessary. I'd recommend reaching out to John44, he's very familiar with all the suppliers in your area. I'd locate a hose supplier locally and work with their recommendations. South Tx. Hose comes to mind.
One thing you might consider is whether or not you want to retain your stock primary filter. I installed a Davco in the engine compartment and have been very impressed with it. Makes filter changes super easy, visual monitoring of the large filter, and eliminates prime hassles as you just fill it up with diesel through the top access port. Now would be the time to install since it requires fuel line extension.
In the grand scheme of things not that big a deal, there's always going to be a few zingers with any new coach. A couple of members here have done the fuel line swap in just a few hours of concerted effort. Fuel line cost is minimal and chances are your fittings are reusable. Your supplier can advise you on this.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Jack Lewis on September 07, 2018, 10:09:20 pm
Doing it yourself, remember not to twist, kink or stretch the new hose as this will weaken it. It was not too hard to adhere to this, often I would just have to slow down and re position pulling or pushing the hose thru the basement.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: craneman on September 07, 2018, 10:36:40 pm
The tank should be pretty light seeing as it's empty, don't think a come a long will be necessary. I'd recommend reaching out to John44, he's very familiar with all the suppliers in your area. I'd locate a hose supplier locally and work with their recommendations. South Tx. Hose comes to mind.
One thing you might consider is whether or not you want to retain your stock primary filter. I installed a Davco in the engine compartment and have been very impressed with it. Makes filter changes super easy, visual monitoring of the large filter, and eliminates prime hassles as you just fill it up with diesel through the top access port. Now would be the time to install since it requires fuel line extension.
In the grand scheme of things not that big a deal, there's always going to be a few zingers with any new coach. A couple of members here have done the fuel line swap in just a few hours of concerted effort. Fuel line cost is minimal and chances are your fittings are reusable. Your supplier can advise you on this.
Thanks Chuck. I will talk to John (David) as he is just a short drive away and has always been helpful when it comes to this baby. Hell, he's the reason we bought her when we did...
Craneman, that hose size you posted, that is Internal diameter, correct? Thanks, Bob
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on September 07, 2018, 11:10:50 pm
This type fuel clamp seals nicely all the way around without chewing into the hose. The edges have a radius so they don't cut into the hose as they tighten. Made domestically also by Dorman as I recall. If the hose is the correct size, they don't leak, let air into the system or damage the hose. Available in different sizes.
Fuel Line Clamp (https://www.busdepot.com/311133515)
Pierce
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: craneman on September 07, 2018, 11:18:45 pm
Yes inside diameter. I reused the original fittings by using a heat gun to warm the new hose then they just push on. Haven't had any leaks since.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: John44 on September 08, 2018, 03:23:52 am
Would try and find out from Mr. Rich where/who put that in and let the populace know.There's a couple of places in town that will have the hose and fittings,will call tomorrow or you call me.I have a trailer that the tank would fit on.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Journey, Roam, Explore on September 08, 2018, 02:09:57 pm
Thanks everyone for your input, as usual greatly appreciated! Tank is out. Took me most of the morning. Would not have been able to do it without a harbor freight come along for 20 bucks, well worth it. The main engine line is 3/4 inch. The rest of different sizes. The engine return line looks good, is proper hose for fuel. the rest all need replacement. The vent had a hose attached to it I think. So hot out I had to come inside or suffer dehydration.... a south Texas frequent worry. Will go out again when the sun goes on the other side of the house. The fuel bay is dirty and smells very strongly of diesel. Will start the clean up today and tomorrow. Get new lines on Monday. Either locally, or via the net. Trident has good A1 coast guard approved fuel lines and a good price online. I might go that route. Most of the fittings were push on with bad clamps and only one. I like 2. The others were crimped on with a threaded connection. Hardest part was getting the door and molding off. Did that last night. Next week will start the switch of hose. I am not sure of the amounts though. Craneman's numbers seem high to me.But without pulling them out and measuring them, hard to say. But on this installation, they used to much hose. Really to much. So I might be able to save some bucks by shortening it a bit. Bob
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: craneman on September 08, 2018, 02:27:33 pm
The vent did have a hose on mine and it is actually a tip-over valve to plug the vent incase of turn over. It looks like you left the drain plug in by the marks on the bottom of the bay. I pulled mine out before removing as it let me get a little more fuel out of the tank. I have some leftover hose for the 1/2" and 5/8' but not much. I didn't want to come up short and have to put in a union.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Barry & Cindy on September 08, 2018, 02:58:50 pm
With tank drain above floor, seems to me that removing plug though floor hole will let some fuel drain onto top of floor as it 'splashes' out of tank to a pan on the ground. So we have never opened our fuel tank drain plug.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Don & Tys on September 08, 2018, 03:24:30 pm
Hopefully the caulking around all penetrations through the basement and along the seams at the bottom of the partitions is in good shape. I don't want to be the bearer of possible bad news, but if diesel has leaked into the rigid styrofoam insulation below, it will turn into a blue melty looking mass. Also, if the trapped diesel can't evaporate out, it will continue to smell. Hopefully, your insulation is still okay and it was all laying on the surface. If not, here is a picture of what happened to ours and was the reason I ended up removing the entire basement bottom skin when repairing our bulkhead. I replaced the styrofoam with foil backed rigid polyurethane foam board which, according to my test, is resistant to diesel. Don
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: jhardman on September 08, 2018, 03:32:05 pm
Gonna' have to look into this...my hoses were replaced by PO, not sure who did it, but hoses look distictively familiar. Will have to read markings....I have diesel smell in basesment and too, and can't stand it either. Seems to waft up, especially into linen cabinet over toilet. Our bath towels absorb the odor 😟.
Thanks to all the forum members ho make this forum the treasure trove it is!
Sorry you're having this trouble!
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Jerry Whiteaker on September 08, 2018, 05:05:41 pm
I have been working on replacing the engine fuel hoses on my coach. I have replaced the return line and the old hose appeared to be in good shape. Foretravel used Eaton Aeroquip FC350 hose on my coach, #8 for supply and #6 for return. The stuff is expensive, but it has lasted 23 years. The end fittings are reusable if you can get them off the old hose with out breaking them. On my coach it may be easier to remove the 67 gal propane tank in order to get to the tank connection, but first I have to burn up about 25 gal of propane. Maybe wait for winter and use the furnace.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Journey, Roam, Explore on September 08, 2018, 06:30:53 pm
Hopefully the caulking around all penetrations through the basement and along the seams at the bottom of the partitions is in good shape. I don't want to be the bearer of possible bad news, but if diesel has leaked into the rigid styrofoam insulation below, it will turn into a blue melty looking mass. Also, if the trapped diesel can't evaporate out, it will continue to smell. Hopefully, your insulation is still okay and it was all laying on the surface. If not, here is a picture of what happened to ours and was the reason I ended up removing the entire basement bottom skin when repairing our bulkhead. I replaced the styrofoam with foil backed rigid polyurethane foam board which, according to my test, is resistant to diesel. Don
Don the basement on this coach was replaced in the last few years, although maybe not the best job. The drain did rip some of the top coat off and maybe a little bit of diesel might have gotten in. I rinsed the bay out with a combo of washing soda dissolved in hot water, ammonia and vinegar.
Coachman, my hose to the M11 is 3/4 inch. Must be at least 50 feet of it, it goes back halfway to the engine. Not sure why its 3/4 ". The aqua hot is only 1/4 inch. and the generator is 3/8 to the pump then 5/16th to the engine. The fitting on the tank is not 3/4" so there would be a restriction there, not sure why its that large of a hose. I didn't raise the coach before I pulled the tank and now think that was a mistake. while I shouldn't have to get under it much, for the generator I will, and to connect the engine from the filter as well. I plan on pulling the hose thru from the engine to the tank. The return line from the engine is the original hose it looks like. I will replace that as well, as its stiff as a board. Will be hard to pull that out. Its the little stuff that frustrates you on these things though. Taking down the cover that covers the hose and wiring in the joey bed bay, one side no problem, the other, a fastener unlike any I have seen. Can't figure out how to get them off with the tools I have, and I have a lot. Plus lying on your back is no fun at all. I am thinking of using Trident A1 marine hose for both the generator and aqua hot. I will try to get a good price on a gates or parker hose locally on monday. Will let you know part numbers and pricing when I get it. John44 said he would come help out when this is done, so offer accepted gratefully. Might be a week or two though. Wish I had raised the coach and blocked it before I took out the tank. To late now. Don't think it will be a huge issue though.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Journey, Roam, Explore on September 08, 2018, 06:33:36 pm
Gonna' have to look into this...my hoses were replaced by PO, not sure who did it, but hoses look distictively familiar. Will have to read markings....I have diesel smell in basesment and too, and can't stand it either. Seems to waft up, especially into linen cabinet over toilet. Our bath towels absorb the odor 😟.
Thanks to all the forum members ho make this forum the treasure trove it is!
Sorry you're having this trouble!
Thanks. Yes get the numbers off the hose and google it. Never know what you might find. This forum is one of the reasons I went with Foretravel instead of a older Prevost or Country Coach. Although the Prevost community is very good as well. Treasure trove it is, the best kind, knowledge !
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: folivier on September 08, 2018, 06:47:33 pm
Can you connect an air compressor to the fitting in the basement to air up your coach then block it? Probably would need to build a double male fitting.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Don & Tys on September 08, 2018, 06:47:37 pm
Bob, You should be able to raise the coach by using an external air compressor hooked up to the service air, which should be feeding the wet tank, which will then add air to both the front and rear air tanks. I have done this by making a double male adapter to connect the external air compressor to the service air. I included an air pressure gauge on the home made adapter to keep an eye on the air pressure. Also good to include a ball valve to control the inflow, though not many non-industrial shop compressors will equal the volume at pressure of the engine mounted compressor. Don Edit: foliver beat me to the punch!
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: jerrett on September 08, 2018, 07:22:47 pm
Did mine about 4 years ago and used the Trident hose. It turned out well and is doing fine. I posted my experience under first step, second step and third step. Each step has its difficulties and it sure is a learning experience.
Jerrett
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: red tractor on September 08, 2018, 07:45:04 pm
You should raise the coach, makes it much easier to work under it and then block it up. I have found that it is easier to pull the hose from the tank to the engine. I have tried both ways and found pulling from the engine to tank to be very difficult. I have changed fuel lines on numerous coaches.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: craneman on September 08, 2018, 07:47:23 pm
Agree with Ron that is the way I did it.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: John/Pat on September 08, 2018, 08:33:36 pm
Does anyone know the fuel lines that Bern'd uses for replacement? I know he does not use the proper clamps.Just the cheap hose clamps as the return line at my engine pulled apart due to a broken hose clamp. Leaking fuel all over the engine before I was told by a car that I had problems. Ended up dumping 1/4 tank of fuel. When I called Bern'd and told him about it; all I got was I know the correct clamps to use. I highly recommend any forum members that have had Bern'd do the fuel lines, to check the return line clamps in engine compartment.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: John/Pat on September 08, 2018, 08:55:06 pm
Picture of my new fuel line that Bern'd replaced.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: John/Pat on September 08, 2018, 08:59:07 pm
Clamp that failed on right and the correct clamps for fuel return line.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: jhardman on September 08, 2018, 10:27:58 pm
Yep, this is what I was afraid of hearing...gotta' check this out ASAP.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: rsihnhold on September 09, 2018, 12:30:27 am
Many thousands miles later, no issue....NO clamps, in fact not recommended
$200.00 for everything, fittings and all. Included gen set.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on September 09, 2018, 03:23:33 pm
Parker is good stuff. If you slide the new hose inside expandable flex sleeving, it makes sliding the new hose over 10X easier. I used it for HDMI and RG6 in the coach. With the galvanized tunnel cover lowered and the tank cover out of the way, two of us were able to run both above cables from the old TV location in the front down and through all the other wires and hoses back to the big TV on the wall at the bathroom in less than 10 minutes. It's super slippery and the rodents don't seem to like it.
Two 50 foot rolls. would do it for the fuel lines. The same size as the OD on the fuel hose makes for a nice tight fit when you expand it. It took me about 30 minutes to expand it and push it over RG-6 but it's really abrasion resistant and soooo easy to pull past/through other lines, hoses, etc. Nice to go with different colors or different stripes for each hose or cable so easy to tell later which is which.
Amazon.com: braided expandable flex sleeve: Tools & Home Improvement (https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Dtools&field-keywords=braided+expandable+flex+sleeve)
Pierce
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Hans&Marjet on September 09, 2018, 04:24:52 pm
Pierce..so you leave the sheating in place after the "pull"?
Hans
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on September 09, 2018, 06:02:45 pm
Pierce..so you leave the sheating in place after the "pull"? Hans
Yes, it provides another level of protection. My first HDMI cables were feasted on by rodents within a week. I changed brands and covered with the braid and it's been perfect since then.
You can cut it off shorter if you like for the last few inches. So, this is how I did it. I pushed it back on itself from the end and boy does it expand. Nice with two people to expand and slide if the sizes are about the same or the flex is not quite a large. When all done, I made a tight wrap with electrical tape as the tiny ends stick out. Once I had a couple of tight wraps of electrical tape over the end and a little bit of hose or cable, I slid some shrink tubing over everything, removed the electrical tape and slid the shrink tube back over the flex and a little hose and then heated it to shrink it.
So, besides making it easy to slide past all the wires, hoses, etc, it also stiffens it so it feeds easier without bending. It just supports itself much better than cable or hose will. I could pull all the way from the water tank and the cable would feed from where the center consul is for the old TV.
If flex is all the same color, different color shrink tubing could be used to identify.
It even looks tough enough to use over hydraulic hoses to keep from chafing.
For the aircraft, we use a special fire proof and very heat resistant variety. It's also pretty cheap and available online. The other attachment is our Grumman. That's almost $60K from the firewall forward so you can see how much flex and shrink tubing I used to keep it neat.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: jhardman on September 09, 2018, 10:15:29 pm
It has been confirmed. I too have the Gates Plantmaster 19B hoses. Suspect the same guy put them in. Will contact him and see what he has to say before sharing his name on the forum. Private message me if you need to know who in Nac might have done that....I'm fortunate to have the coach of a great meticulous owner who is ready and willing to help me. I'm very thankful!
Best, Jonathan
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Journey, Roam, Explore on September 09, 2018, 11:02:57 pm
Jonathan, sorry to hear that, but glad you found out now. Using a external air compressor to power up the coach is a wonderful idea, thanks for that! Wouldn't have thought of it.
So the dilemma I now face is concerning the size of the lines. I don't understand why you would put a big line (3/4") to a fitting that is not that size ( engine) and (generator) For the generator its 3/8 inch both coming and going, but the actual inlet hose it only 5/16" and the return is 1/4". If that is what it needs, then why use bigger hose? My Aqua hot uses 1/4" hose now, although I have never fired the diesel part of it up. So don't know if that is all it needs or they undersized it. Being able to cut back on the hose size, especially the return side, can add up to some bucks. Any opinions ?
One more thing to ponder, is push on fittings vs crimped. With the amount of flow that big M11 diesel uses, can a push on barbed fitting stand up to that, and with no clamp? If I did use a clamp, I agree that the solid european ones look a lot better so will use them. Will save a bunch of money using the push on's as well vs crimped or aeroquip. Calling around in the monring to check prices locally vs internet. Thanks, Bob
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: craneman on September 09, 2018, 11:12:27 pm
Looking at the generator fuel hoses, they are nothing like mine. I have 3/8" supply and return. My hoses were tied up into the original loom so I am sure they had not been changed. Same with the AH fuel lines, they were pulling air keeping the AH from firing up when I bought the coach. Why they put such large hoses on the generator is beyond me.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Don & Tys on September 09, 2018, 11:29:03 pm
Another option regarding the fittings involves the choice of a different kind of fuel line. The Parker HTFL (High Temperature Diesel Fuel Tubing) looks like air brake tubing except for the color, which is brown (the stuff Foretravel sells anyway). It uses DOT air brake line fittings. It is what Foretravel uses on new coaches (or was when they were still building their own chassis). Don
One more thing to ponder, is push on fittings vs crimped. With the amount of flow that big M11 diesel uses, can a push on barbed fitting stand up to that, and with no clamp? If I did use a clamp, I agree that the solid european ones look a lot better so will use them. Will save a bunch of money using the push on's as well vs crimped or aeroquip. Calling around in the monring to check prices locally vs internet. Thanks, Bob
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Jack Lewis on September 10, 2018, 12:18:16 am
From Bob and Julie" "One more thing to ponder, is push on fittings vs crimped. With the amount of flow that big M11 diesel uses, can a push on barbed fitting stand up to that, and with no clamp? If I did use a clamp, I agree that the solid european ones look a lot better so will use them. Will save a bunch of money using the push on's as well vs crimped or aeroquip."
Parker/Aeorquip or Gates all spec the fittings for each particular hose. I would only use what fittings are recommended by hose mfg for that particular model hose. You will find excellent information online, and can verify that with your hose shop.
No problem with hose on slip on barbs coming off. Never use a hose clamp on a barbed fitting and hose, A hose clamp used on a barb will destroy the hose and leak. The solid clamp should only be used on approved solid, not barbed, fittings. Over torquing a hose clamp will and can cause a leak as over torquing a threaded fitting can also. You might also note warning by hose fitting mfg's of problem caused by over torquing and mixing steel and brass threads.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: folivier on September 10, 2018, 08:42:43 am
I noticed on your generator the ES-52 controller looks to have been moved out of the control box. Is that in the electric box at the bottom? Or is that box for a plug-in to supply another coach or your house?
BTW the PO of my coach had FT change the fuel lines and the generator uses the Parker HTFL.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: gracerace on September 10, 2018, 10:52:16 am
From Bob and Julie" "One more thing to ponder, is push on fittings vs crimped. With the amount of flow that big M11 diesel uses, can a push on barbed fitting stand up to that, and with no clamp? If I did use a clamp, I agree that the solid european ones look a lot better so will use them. Will save a bunch of money using the push on's as well vs crimped or aeroquip."
Parker/Aeorquip or Gates all spec the fittings for each particular hose. I would only use what fittings are recommended by hose mfg for that particular model hose. You will find excellent information online, and can verify that with your hose shop.
No problem with hose on slip on barbs coming off. Never use a hose clamp on a barbed fitting and hose, A hose clamp used on a barb will destroy the hose and leak. The solid clamp should only be used on approved solid, not barbed, fittings. Over torquing a hose clamp will and can cause a leak as over torquing a threaded fitting can also. You might also note warning by hose fitting mfg's of problem caused by over torquing and mixing steel and brass threads.
Fuel pressure is not HIGH pressure, it sucks....I asked the same question. The barbs hold up fine, clamps can weaken or cut the hose.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on September 10, 2018, 11:40:25 am
First of all, fuel hose is identified by the inside diameter or I.D. Most diesels have a fuel supply line running from the tank to a primary filter (sometimes lift pump), then to a engine powered lift/fuel pump and then to the secondary filter. From the secondary filter ( the one with the lowest micron rating/filters the smallest particles) the fuel travels to the injection pump or unit injectors in the case of the Detroit 2 cycle. The fuel may go through the engine's computer to cool it.
The only time there is pressure in the fuel supply line is after the lift pump. It's about 35 to 50 psi on ours. The rest of the time, it's sucking from the fuel tank. This is why some fuel lines may not require a hose clamp. The injection pump pressurizes the fuel to about 3000 psi in the earlier engines to 25K psi in the common rail late engines. But the engine does not use all of the fuel, in fact, only a small amount. The excess is used to cool the injectors and is returned to the fuel tank via the return hose. It can be quite hot so the temperature rating on the hose is important even though there is not much pressure on the way back. Since our fuel tanks are mounted out of the airstream, their temperature will be higher than a big rig so it's a good idea to keep the fuel level a little higher than you might normally do in your car. The injection pump has a temperature rating for the incoming fuel. Our U300's tank gets too hot to touch if it gets low. It's never bad practice to install a fuel cooler (much like a transmission cooler) in the return line to make sure the fuel is within specs for the injection pump.
Low pressure because of a air leak or filter restriction can cause the main injection pump to receive fuel at lower than normal pressure. At high engine output, the injection pump may not receive enough fuel to provide full power to the engine but also the pump may not be lubricated and cooled properly and may shorten it's life in some cases. The return valve on the injection pump may be checked to make sure the internal supply pressure is within factory specification if you have a Bosch P injection pump. Rotary pumps also don't like low pressure either.
The M11 engine while 11 liters is small compared to many big rigs and even if getting 4 mpg at 50 mph on grades is actually burning less than a quart a minute at high output. The excess fuel the lift pump supplies just heads back to the tank. A spring loaded valve keeps a certain amount of pressure on the pump outlet side so the pump should always have the correct operating pressure. This is usually located just past the engine on the return line.
So, you can see that the fuel in the tank is constantly being recirculated and "polished" by the filters. In a well designed fuel system, any water/sediment/algae will be trapped in the bottom of the primary filter and if checked on a regular basis, should give an early indication of contamination. The bottom of the primary filter may have a plastic see through part and or a water sensor that will indicate if water is present.
It's possible that some models may have tank mounted fuel supply pump. Ours does not.
Some CATs don't have a fuel return line.
Pierce
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: wolfe10 on September 10, 2018, 12:09:10 pm
When looking at fuel flow (gallons/hour), on most modern diesels, it is MANY times what is burned. Fuel is used for cooling and lubricating fuel injection and head components.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Journey, Roam, Explore on September 10, 2018, 03:09:18 pm
I noticed on your generator the ES-52 controller looks to have been moved out of the control box. Is that in the electric box at the bottom? Or is that box for a plug-in to supply another coach or your house?
BTW the PO of my coach had FT change the fuel lines and the generator uses the Parker HTFL.
plug in to supply the house. 50 amp.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: gracerace on September 10, 2018, 03:25:58 pm
First of all, fuel hose is identified by the inside diameter or I.D. Most diesels have a fuel supply line running from the tank to a primary filter (sometimes lift pump), then to a engine powered lift/fuel pump and then to the secondary filter. From the secondary filter ( the one with the lowest micron rating/filters the smallest particles) the fuel travels to the injection pump or unit injectors in the case of the Detroit 2 cycle. The fuel may go through the engine's computer to cool it.
The only time there is pressure in the fuel supply line is after the lift pump. It's about 35 to 50 psi on ours. The rest of the time, it's sucking from the fuel tank. This is why some fuel lines may not require a hose clamp. The injection pump pressurizes the fuel to about 3000 psi in the earlier engines to 25K psi in the common rail late engines. But the engine does not use all of the fuel, in fact, only a small amount. The excess is used to cool the injectors and is returned to the fuel tank via the return hose. It can be quite hot so the temperature rating on the hose is important even though there is not much pressure on the way back. Since our fuel tanks are mounted out of the airstream, their temperature will be higher than a big rig so it's a good idea to keep the fuel level a little higher than you might normally do in your car. The injection pump has a temperature rating for the incoming fuel. Our U300's tank gets too hot to touch if it gets low. It's never bad practice to install a fuel cooler (much like a transmission cooler) in the return line to make sure the fuel is within specs for the injection pump.
Low pressure because of a air leak or filter restriction can cause the main injection pump to receive fuel at lower than normal pressure. At high engine output, the injection pump may not receive enough fuel to provide full power to the engine but also the pump may not be lubricated and cooled properly and may shorten it's life in some cases. The return valve on the injection pump may be checked to make sure the internal supply pressure is within factory specification if you have a Bosch P injection pump. Rotary pumps also don't like low pressure either.
The M11 engine while 11 liters is small compared to many big rigs and even if getting 4 mpg at 50 mph on grades is actually burning less than a quart a minute at high output. The excess fuel the lift pump supplies just heads back to the tank. A spring loaded valve keeps a certain amount of pressure on the pump outlet side so the pump should always have the correct operating pressure. This is usually located just past the engine on the return line.
So, you can see that the fuel in the tank is constantly being recirculated and "polished" by the filters. In a well designed fuel system, any water/sediment/algae will be trapped in the bottom of the primary filter and if checked on a regular basis, should give an early indication of contamination. The bottom of the primary filter may have a plastic see through part and or a water sensor that will indicate if water is present.
It's possible that some models may have tank mounted fuel supply pump. Ours does not.
Some CATs don't have a fuel return line.
Pierce
Excellent post Pierce Chris BTW Our 3126 Cat has a return line
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Journey, Roam, Explore on September 10, 2018, 03:37:12 pm
Thanks for that post Pierce, was some of the info I was looking for. Went to 2 hose supply companies in town today, Hufco and Hose of South Texas. Hose had nothing good, but would order some at 350 feet per roll. I would have to buy the entire roll........ ah no thanks. The other hose was pretty lame Parker 7212 (http://ph.parker.com/us/17612/en/push-on-multipurpose-oil-resistant-air-water-hose-jiffy-series-7212) at 1.40$ per foot. A great price for a so so hose. Hufco had Parker 201 hose, great stuff, at only $8.28 per foot plus tax, plus fittings, but they couldn't get me the required length. I would have to order a big roll.... So I am thinking that the Trident A1 marine hose is looking pretty good right about now. Trident 365 (http://tridentmarine.com/product/trident-barrier-lined-a1-15-fuel-hose-365-series/#.W5bDeehKiUk) The only issue I see is there are no fittings for this that I can find other than push on barb type fittings. For the aqua hot, the generator I see no issue. With the Cummins, there might be. Might not. Will have to change out fittings on the fuel filters and engine. But might just order the Parker 201 from the filter to the engine. Easy to monitor the fuel filter/water separator near the start batteries. If I did go with the Parker 201, that would be 510$ just for the hose, fittings extra. Thinking of going with that though, IF they can get it in one continuous piece.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Journey, Roam, Explore on September 10, 2018, 03:53:08 pm
OK, found a supplier that has it in stock, and is close by, 5/8" 8 bucks per foot and 3/8" 4.72 per foot. in stock, don't have to buy a entire store's worth. Parker 201 transportation hose (http://ph.parker.com/us/15551/en/rubber-cover-transportation-hose-201)in blue and black. Fittings extra.....
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on September 10, 2018, 04:57:42 pm
OK, found a supplier that has it in stock, and is close by, 5/8" 8 bucks per foot and 3/8" 4.72 per foot. in stock, don't have to buy a entire store's worth. Parker 201 transportation hose (http://ph.parker.com/us/15551/en/rubber-cover-transportation-hose-201)in blue and black. Fittings extra.....
Try to find a roll. Will be much cheaper.
P
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: gracerace on September 10, 2018, 07:43:19 pm
Thanks for that post Pierce, was some of the info I was looking for. Went to 2 hose supply companies in town today, Hufco and Hose of South Texas. Hose had nothing good, but would order some at 350 feet per roll. I would have to buy the entire roll........ ah no thanks. The other hose was pretty lame Parker 7212 (http://ph.parker.com/us/17612/en/push-on-multipurpose-oil-resistant-air-water-hose-jiffy-series-7212) at 1.40$ per foot. A great price for a so so hose. Hufco had Parker 201 hose, great stuff, at only $8.28 per foot plus tax, plus fittings, but they couldn't get me the required length. I would have to order a big roll.... So I am thinking that the Trident A1 marine hose is looking pretty good right about now. Trident 365 (http://tridentmarine.com/product/trident-barrier-lined-a1-15-fuel-hose-365-series/#.W5bDeehKiUk) The only issue I see is there are no fittings for this that I can find other than push on barb type fittings. For the aqua hot, the generator I see no issue. With the Cummins, there might be. Might not. Will have to change out fittings on the fuel filters and engine. But might just order the Parker 201 from the filter to the engine. Easy to monitor the fuel filter/water separator near the start batteries. If I did go with the Parker 201, that would be 510$ just for the hose, fittings extra. Thinking of going with that though, IF they can get it in one continuous piece.
Not sure whats "lame" About the Parker 7212. Like I said, been running it for many miles, not a issue. House of Hose in Spokane sells it to everybody. They have been in business since the 40's. Spokane is a heavy industrial area. I trust them You must not have read the spec's for the hose in my posting. So for those that are intrested here it is: Markets: • Agriculture • Construction • General Industrial
Features/Benefits: • Tube: Black Class A nitrile for exceptional fuel and oil resistance to 212°F and 300 psi. • Tube: Silicone free to eliminate contamination of air powered paint spray systems. • Reinforcement: One textile braid for strength and kink resistance. • Cover: Chloroprene for abrasion, flame oil and weather resistance. • Cover Colors: Black, blue, green, grey, red and yellow for easy identification. • Couplings: Push-on; also qualified with steel crimp couplings for a durable, safe and secure connection.
Applications: • Air • Biodiesel (to B20 in dedicated service) • Diesel • Ethanol • Gasoline • Mild chemicals • Oil • Water • Air compressors • Air-powered paint spray hose systems • Air tools, including those subject to light oil mists for lubrication • Automotive/factory assembly equipment/systems • General transfer
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Journey, Roam, Explore on September 10, 2018, 10:40:36 pm
Sorry if I offended you. I looked at the hose, it's not what I would put on this kind of engine. Might be ok for smaller diesel engine, or the genset imo. HOSE COVER MATERIAL Chloroprene APPLICATION Air & Multipurpose MEDIA Various MAXIMUM WORKING PRESSURE (MPA) 2.1 WEIGHT (KG/M) 0.01 to 0.04 WEIGHT (LBS/FT) 0.09 to 0.30 VACUUM RATING (INCH OF HG) 15 to 28 VACUUM RATING (MM OF HG) 381 to 711 HOSE I.D. (SIZE) -4 to -12 HOSE I.D. (DN) 8 to 20 INDUSTRY STANDARDS MSHA HOSE INNER TUBE MATERIAL Black nitrile MATERIAL - HOSE REINFORCEMENT One textile braid FINISH - COVER Smooth COLOR Black, Blue, Green, Gray, Red, Yellow MINIMUM WORKING TEMPERATURE (F) -40 MAXIMUM WORKING TEMPERATURE (F) 212
it has one textile braid only. Not much in the way of protection. No inner lining. Already have to spend money to fix a stupid mistake a previous owner allowed to happen on his now my coach, don't want to make a similar mistake. If it works for you, then fine. It's not made specifically for diesel applications. It's a multipurpose hose, same as I have now, which is failing. Not sure how you would know if the hose is "working for you" but if it is, great. I suggest you take a rag to it sometime and see if the smell of diesel is permeating it. I suspect that after a while it might. Might not. I only want to do this once.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Journey, Roam, Explore on September 10, 2018, 10:44:06 pm
Actually, the roll price at these supply houses is the same, they charge by the foot. 350 foot roll I think it was. Great for a group buy. Not so great if your just trying to fix your own coach.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Protech Racing on September 10, 2018, 11:02:51 pm
The plastic poly style tubing looks like the modern replacement for the rubber hose.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: gracerace on September 11, 2018, 12:37:17 am
Sorry if I offended you. I looked at the hose, it's not what I would put on this kind of engine. Might be ok for smaller diesel engine, or the genset imo. HOSE COVER MATERIAL Chloroprene APPLICATION Air & Multipurpose MEDIA Various MAXIMUM WORKING PRESSURE (MPA) 2.1 WEIGHT (KG/M) 0.01 to 0.04 WEIGHT (LBS/FT) 0.09 to 0.30 VACUUM RATING (INCH OF HG) 15 to 28 VACUUM RATING (MM OF HG) 381 to 711 HOSE I.D. (SIZE) -4 to -12 HOSE I.D. (DN) 8 to 20 INDUSTRY STANDARDS MSHA HOSE INNER TUBE MATERIAL Black nitrile MATERIAL - HOSE REINFORCEMENT One textile braid FINISH - COVER Smooth COLOR Black, Blue, Green, Gray, Red, Yellow MINIMUM WORKING TEMPERATURE (F) -40 MAXIMUM WORKING TEMPERATURE (F) 212
it has one textile braid only. Not much in the way of protection. No inner lining. Already have to spend money to fix a stupid mistake a previous owner allowed to happen on his now my coach, don't want to make a similar mistake. If it works for you, then fine. It's not made specifically for diesel applications. It's a multipurpose hose, same as I have now, which is failing. Not sure how you would know if the hose is "working for you" but if it is, great. I suggest you take a rag to it sometime and see if the smell of diesel is permeating it. I suspect that after a while it might. Might not. I only want to do this once.
No offense taken. Just people ask questions, and you try to help, but they don't do the research. All is well in my world. If it's good enough for Ethanol, it's good enough for acid. Like I said, many miles and months, and it's fine. No smell. But if you want to throw good money away send it to me please.....LOL...I'am an unemployed ,panhandler, drag racer. Chris
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Journey, Roam, Explore on September 11, 2018, 01:04:55 am
No offense taken. Just people ask questions, and you try to help, but they don't do the research. All is well in my world. If it's good enough for Ethanol, it's good enough for acid. Like I said, many miles and months, and it's fine. No smell. But if you want to throw good money away send it to me please.....LOL...I'am an unemployed ,panhandler, drag racer. Chris
Ah but I did do my reasearch. Many many hours of it. And I went personally to a large wholesaler of hose to personally look at it. And found it not to my liking. Like I said, I'm sure its good for the generator or the aqua hot, but not the main. Just my opinion though. Don't think putting a better grade hose on something as important as a fuel delivery system to a very hot engine is a "waste of money" but then we will just have to agree to disagree. Anyway went with the Trident A1 365 series hose. Ordered it tonight. Total cost $392 delivered. No tax. Will have to change out the barbs for another $25 bucks or so. So saved a ton of cash vs the expensive stuff, got what I wanted, so ok on that front too. Win Win.
Thanks to all that contributed to this discussion. Those that have done this before, I have read all your posts and learned a bunch. Those that will need to do this in the future, hope you learned some too. Will post some pics of the install when we do it in a week or so. Bob
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Ghallid on September 11, 2018, 10:07:21 am
Reading the post can be a knowledgeable lesson when faced with something that needs addressed such as fuel lines. But at the same time it can make one wonder about his new to him coach may also have the same need to replace his 2001 fuel lines.
Is fuel line replacement something that should be considered as preventive maintenance or just wait til there is a issue.
Greg
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: gracerace on September 11, 2018, 10:25:31 am
Glad you found a hose that makes you happy, and you didn't get hosed (pun intended) So your sending me the difference you saved. ...LOL Cheers Chris
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: wolfe10 on September 11, 2018, 06:20:39 pm
Reading the post can be a knowledgeable lesson when faced with something that needs addressed such as fuel lines. But at the same time it can make one wonder about his new to him coach may also have the same need to replace his 2001 fuel lines.
Is fuel line replacement something that should be considered as preventive maintenance or just wait til there is a issue.
Greg
Greg, et al;
Two reasons to change fuel hoses:
1. Engine performance issues (sucking AIR). 2. Visual inspection reveals significant cracks-- look at the hose going into the primary fuel filter-- easy to see and pretty indicative of hose condition.
Ya, their is a third reason-- you didn't do it and you are on the side of the road-- your engine demanding diesel and you are feeding it only AIR.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Journey, Roam, Explore on September 12, 2018, 04:14:43 am
Brett, I would argue that there is indeed a third reason, and that is someone installed the wrong damn hose and you now have a part that could fail when you least expect it. Also the fact the diesel is permeating thru the hose and the smell is throughout the coach. Would be no different if they installed the wrong air filter or air dryer, or tires. Correct the mistake. And that is the reason I am doing it.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: amos.harrison on September 12, 2018, 07:22:10 am
Cracks are hard to see in old hoses. Pick a spot near the primary fuel filter and bend it as much as you can. Lots of little cracks showing tell you you're on borrowed time. Difficulty in starting first time in a while is often the first sign of fuel hose degradation.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on September 12, 2018, 10:14:47 am
Indeed, our generator fuel hose had literally millions of tiny cracks. Cracks that you needed strong set of glasses to see and like Amos said, you have to bend it to see them. The big tell tale was that it was damp, not wet itn about a one foot area.
Bob, the hose is not going to just fail suddenly. Usually the symptoms are lack of full power when going onto the freeway or harder starting than normal. Good to check out the hose before it gets bad enough to strand you when your coach does not start in the morning. The smell may be coming from a damp area in the hose. There are quite a few spots that will be hard to get access for a visual inspection. You could also clamp off the hose at the tank and then use a MityVac at the engine to check for leaks.
Diesel is a bad smell but auto gasoline is much much worse.
Pierce
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Journey, Roam, Explore on September 12, 2018, 10:32:12 am
Pierce, on my last boat, a 40 foot Endeavour center cockpit, on the survey we found a strong diesel smell in the bilge. I questioned it, but my surverour, one who I had a lot of trust in, from other surveys, said don't worry about it, just use the boat. But I am not that kind of guy, new there was a leak somewhere, and had to fix it. I pulled the 75 gallon aluminum tank, under the 50 HP Perkins diesel, which was a bitch to do. There were tens to a hundred small holes in the tank, as it had been sitting in bilge water for over 20 years. Cost me a ton of cash to have a new tank fabricated, by Florida Marine tanks, the same company that builds Foretravel tanks, and the Endeavour tanks. But it was worth it. The smell was gone, I was happy about it. New filters, hose etc. Was the right thing to do. First home I purchased in Corpus Christi, I smelled gas. House had a commercial stove in the kitchen. Weighed hundreds of pounds. The inspector said no leak, the owner said no leak. I smelled it though. After closing, I disassembled that stove, pulled it from the wall, and found the leak. Now that leak could have been there for a long time. Maybe it would have been fine. But I am sensitive to that type of smell, and can't stand it, and would have worried over and over that one day the house would have blown up. I fixed it. So to me its about safety and doing the right thing. Sure that hose might be fine, except for the smell. Or maybe not. But can't have it on my rig. Got to go..... But that hose isn't meant for diesel so the entire hose stinks. Its coming thru the rubber. The business that put that hose in should be held accountable. But it was 2 owners ago. I could call them and fight it out, but its not worth my sanity. So I will just fix it. And thanks to all on this forum that helped by posting their experience doing it as well. Bob
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Chuck Pearson on September 12, 2018, 11:33:20 am
Curious about whether you considered using OEM quality Aeroquip wire reinforced hose rather than the fabric reinforced hose?
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on September 12, 2018, 12:57:57 pm
Bob, yes, the diesel smell can drive you crazy. I permeates everything. I was just suggesting it would not likely fail if you were on a trip.
In sailing a new sailboat from Hong Kong to Manila, the prop shaft leaked and there was quite a bit of salt water in the bilge. In the 8 days it took for the voyage, electrolysis ate several holes in the mild steel tank. I had ordered a stainless tank like the water tank was but they would not fit it. I installed two Racor 200s in HK and had to drain them every time I used the engine. I pulled the tank when back in the U.S., welded plates over the holes, used fuel tank slushing compound inside and covered the outside with FG cloth and epoxy resin. No problems after that.
Our main hoses are OEM late 1992. Keeping fingers crossed.
Bet you were glad to part company with the Perkins. I sure was.
Pierce
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Caflashbob on September 12, 2018, 09:32:54 pm
Hopefully this is not a hijack but the smell thing is very important to us. DW is sensitive.
Noticed driving up to a campground in the mountains around Los Angeles I get a strong diesel smell.
Twisty turny road. Not creeping speedsise. Driving fairly aggressively on the turns.
Full tank minus 20 gallons max at the bottom.
Vented gas caps.
Am I supposed to smell fuel? Straight road. Hills. No smell. Only hard cornering at speed for a 15 mile stretch.
Thanks for any feedback
My x Foretravel mechanic buddy used the Parker hose and put hose clamps on the ends.
Are the Foretravel tanks fitting barbed?
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: craneman on September 12, 2018, 10:14:51 pm
The tank fittings on mine were barbed. I reused them no problems.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Journey, Roam, Explore on September 13, 2018, 07:06:50 am
Curious about whether you considered using OEM quality Aeroquip wire reinforced hose rather than the fabric reinforced hose?
Chuck if I could use OEM quality hose I would. Haven't been able to find any that I could afford. Locally they only sell it by the roll. Looked online as well. The Trident hose I purchased will be more than fine, the price was right, and I was able to get it by the foot for most of it and at a good price with free or little shipping and no tax. Time will tell if it was the right decision.
Title: Re: Fuel hose letdown
Post by: Protech Racing on September 13, 2018, 09:38:46 am
Dorman says that Their tubing is sound for bio diesel ; No mention in the tech description , but a fast answer from their tech line states diesel use. https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b/dorman-oe-solutions-3387/hardware---fasteners-16585/connectors---fuel--cooling---trans--16732/nylon-fuel-line-repair-kits-18922/a6a52856a4e4/dorman-oe-solutions-fuel-line/800075/4257340?pos=23
The PA12 and Nylon 12 are designed for all fuels it look like . If anyone can find data that states else wise ,please share.