Everyone with a Cat 3126 (maybe other model Cat's with a HEUI pumps) can take this with a grain of sand. I have read this many times before over the last year, after our engine frailer.
This morning I was talking to the service adviser (prior he was a Cat mech. ) at Western States Caterpillar, discussing why a $5.00 oil ring broke in a otherwise perfect engine with only 115K miles.
He said, most people run the wrong oil. Not brand, that didn't seem to matter, but velocity. I told him I run the recommended 15/40 Delo, but he said they had a service bulletin out about 15 years back, stating 10/30 diesel oil.
I asked why, he said because of the HEUI pump. He told me to think of it as a hydraulic pump. So what do they use in hydraulic systems? Hydraulic fluid which is super thin (5 or 10 weight).
What he continued to tell me was, the thicker oil also build's lots of carbon behind the rings, which in turn holding them out, causing them to break against the cylinder wall.
Makes technical sense to me. Besides, I noticed our piston's did have a lot of carbon in the ring lang while I was cleaning them out.The one with the broken ring was worse. I just thought the bum cylinder caused it.
Also, when I look back, the cylinder was oblong at the top, not where the oil ring broke at the bottom. See picture of head gasket, which formed itself to the cylinder wall, it's egg sahped.
I plan to run 10/30, probably going to just run their Caterpillar oil, and take the 15/40 Delo back to Costco.
Hope this helps
Chris
Chris,
I have no problem with 10-30 for most of the country/most of the time.
But, would stick with 15-40 for really hot (100 degree F) driving.
Given where you live, it makes sense that a service tech in your area would recommend a lighter viscosity oil. Not so much in Texas.
Would running Seafoam in the crankcase for the last several hundred miles before an oil change be a compromise solution? Would that help to keep the carbon buildup in check without dropping down to the lower viscosity oil?
Oils with low sulfated ash make breaking rings less likely. Ash deposits collect in the ring lands (ring grooves) and can cause the rings to stick. Since the cylinder has a taper to it when cold, the rings can't conform to the change in diameter and can break trying to conform to the shape and size of the cylinders. If the ring sticks toward BDC (bottom dead center) it may not be able to contract when the piston moves upward when you start it. One of the big reasons Detroit went to low ash Delo 100 in their 2 cycles. NO, I'm not recommending the Delo 100 for a CAT, just saying that ash can build up in ring lands.
Synthetic oils or more frequent oil changes will help keep the engine piston lands cleaner.
Here is a quote:
"As the engine oil enters the combustion chamber and burns, its residue forms an ash-like material. This ash-like material contributes to deposits in the crown land above the piston ring as well as to deposits in the ring grooves. These deposits can lead to rubbing wear on the cylinder liner and cause the piston rings to not operate freely."
I use a 20-50 in our MBZ diesel and change it every 3000 miles. It has almost 450,000 without anything being done to it and starts instantly (with glow) in sub-freezing temps. I overhauled many of these engines that didn't change oil often. Some didn't make it to 100K. Not recommending 20-50 in a CAT either, just an example.
Pierce
Given I have put close to 300k on three coaches, I have NEVER changed viscosities from my tried and trued Delo 15-40, even waay up in the Northest Territories! ^.^d
I suspect a tech working on diesels in Idaho in the winter would know that 15-40 is "just wrong".
Or as they say in Texas "that just ain't right".
I should have put a caveat in there: "From November on, I have always moved south." A couple of times, I did NOT move far enough south (this is Flagstaff, AZ in late November).
All great info......That is why I said "take it with a grain of sand"...The service bulletin was for temperatures -4F to 104F......Just sayin'
My friend who is helping me, is a retired heavy equipment repair guy. He said they also had better luck with Cat stuff with 10/30 (even when it still had oil in it). Their stuff is spread out from Montana to Palm Springs year round.
I would be in agreement about 10/40, if I lived in a place like Arizona in the summer, towing my race car trailer. Texas, umm it gets cold and snows there too.
I plan to change the oil every 6K miles like I did before. Recommended on the rebuilt engine is 6K, I am going to change it at 3K
Every engine (except this one) I have owned has gone a gazzillion miles, both diesel and gas, probably because I changed the oil every 3K miles max.
We'll give the 10/30 Caterpillar oil a whirl.....
lets ask David.e.atherton , because he also told me 10/30 , when I was talking to him last spring.
Chris
I have heard every story there is. Some say a gallon of diesel in the crank case on high idle for 1/2 hr before changing oil. Haven't been brave enough to do that. But I can say, with the dirty oil that the broken ring was causing (even though I changed it 3 times in 3K miles) Every engine sensor went out, one by one. That was the sludge causing that.
Would research and find out who makes the Cat oil and just use it at a lot less money.Worked for Holt Cat on Natural gas engines
and we used nothing but low ash 40wt. oil.Had many engines that would run for a month straight.
Grace,if you do not want to try synthetic oil,consider a extra by-pass oil filter,will filter to 1 micron.
I think Delo makes it. But I do plan to ask. Thanks
I know I'll start a fire storm, just not a big Synthetic guy.
In my race car,I just dumped out, Joe Gibbs Synthetic 10/30 racing oil. It cost me $160.00 for 8 qts.
Oil pressure was not where I wanted it. Went to Lucas regular mineral racing oil with zinc (not recommended for street)
$75.00 delivered for 10 quarts. Oil pressure is awesome.
Got turned onto it by a another alcohol racer friend. Mike actually builds the "Clear View" oil filter right here in Spokane that has gone crazy in sales.
Billet Connection dba ClearView Filtration – See Through Oil Filters,... (http://seethroughfilter.com/)
Your idea is good. The tech at cat said there is now a ad on filter for the Cat Heui pump
The inside of the engine will look like new with synthetic . You will never gum up an oil ring .( or coke the turbo) In all of the race engines I run all are raced with synthetic. Never have had an oil related failure ,even tho the oil pressure runs lower ( makes more power ). 25 yrs of Mobile one and I pay for it.
None of the NASACAR Cup style cars use Dino oil. Oil Technology has improved significantly.
My Cat has been good enough to me that it will get Synthetic next change and be run 8K.
I'm thinking about that, also. Any particular brand? Is it like switching over to Transend for the Allison, where it should be changed twice before running many miles?
Rotella T6 maybe ,any 10/40 wt . Might add the zink for the lifters.
I run Mobil Delvac-1 5w-40 synthetic at 20,000 mile intervals. A 10w-30 is fully interchangeble with 15/40.
I never use conventional oil. Synthetics provide so many benefits for such a small increase in cost that it just isnt worth it to roll the dice. The extraordinary cleaning action and resistance to forming deposits may have saved your rings.
Gracerace quote: "I know I'll start a fire storm, just not a big Synthetic guy." Sorry, but California can't handle any more "firestorms."
I remember when I bought my Kawasaki 500. It was really fast but loaded up and then missed like crazy until it cleared out plus it left a blue trail behind it. The Honda 750s were not as fast but they just left me until I got about quarter mile but by that time, it was too late. Enter a synthetic oil. I could idle through town, jump on the freeway without a miss or any smoke. The Hondas were easy pickings after that. After a port job and dykes ring forged pistons, everything else was slow motion. Hats off to Amsoil.
I use Mobil 1 in all vehicles except for the Detroit as the budget does not allow for it. Otherwise I would.
I also use Biodiesel whenever I can but it's everywhere in the Central Valley so usually not a problem finding it. HVO biodiesel is the future of diesel and the key to not finding diesel vehicles locked out of all the world's major cities.
Is HVO the Holy Grail of the world biodiesel market? - Greenea (https://www.greenea.com/publication/is-hvo-the-holy-grail-of-the-world-biodiesel-market/)
Pierce
I get all that, but when I saw the $150.00 Joe Gibbs turn to water when I checked the oil, and 20 PSI oil pressure in my 20K race car engine , it ended my 1st experience badly. I tried.
Second, can't see dumping synthetic into a 20 year old engine. Even though mine has been freshened.Worse in a higher mileage engine.
I freaked out, when they told me my wife's new Dart wouldn't need it's 1st oil change, till 10K miles. Really, all that junk floating around in a new engine? I don't care how good and clean the assembly plant was. I did the first change at 4K. But I did use Shafers synthetic.
My new Race engine, took 25 filter clean outs (it's 115 micro) along with 5 oil changes. It was built with gloves, and I still get aluminum flakes in it.
I hear all the benefits, but I guess I am old school. besides, the Cat is an old school engine. Certainly not going to go 20K miles without a oil change, no matter what kind of oil is in it. To me, that's asking for trouble because of the HEUI pump..
Not trying to be political as no parties are mentioned. After reading that hvo article, a few things bug me mainly the use of the word proprietary (aka a license to steal, make it appear to be competitive at first, regulate into a requirement and then steal all you want). Whose holy Grail is this sellers or consumers? Plants need to be superscale, which means any disruption in few supply chains, the few distribution chains, or a mishap at the plant will bring nation's to there knees. Germany's war machine ground to a halt somewhat, because the ball bearing plants were bombed first. Back to the lubrication thing I kinda like synthetics in a turbo motor, and bypass filters or any other filters for that matter don't typicaly achive their published micron ratings until 2/3 lifespan ratings, because it very tough to produce any filter media to that tight of tolerances. Can a machine tool be calibrated to one micron? JMO filters every other fluid change.
Been using Amsoil in everything I own since the mid 70's.We got our coach from the original owners,the husband and wife had passed away 2 months from one another,got it from the kids.It had 215k miles and was pretty well taken care of.I changed the oil
and filter to Amsoil,installed the bypass filter,did not flush just changed oil.Right after that we went to Quartsite,when we got there
the oil was still clean and not even brown let alone black.I changed the oil at 22k miles took a sample and it came back good.Most
of the bad press on synthetics are myths like the one that it will go thru the seals or somehow void your warrenty.They have come
a long way since the first Amsoil or first Mobil 1.
Understand your post Phred but what does making a machine to a one micron tolerence have to do with a filter?When I was
researching fuel filters for example every single one that the maker called 10 micron or 20 micron or whichever micron rating you
pick had a different % rating next to it,no 2 brands were alike.The oil filters have the same ratings x amount of micron filtration
at x percentage,that sounds like the same thing you said about the 2/3 life span.The main thing I care about is it keeps the oil cleaner.
I would assume Brett would have gone to synth if he thought it was better/worth it. I will defer to him and continue with Delo 15/40. ^.^d
Seafoam claims to "dissolve petroleum residues that can bind and restrict the free movement of piston compression rings" but that's when added to the fuel, not the crankcase. I've used it before in cars, boats and small engines. I can't swear that it works but is there any harm in using it occasionally as preventative maintenance in a Cat 3126, either in the crankcase or the fuel tank?
https://seafoamsales.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/HOW2_Diagram_4-Stroke-Piston-and-Rings.pdf
Got to agree with John44. I've gone to synthetics on several high mileage cars and the sky didn't fall. Yes, lots of myths. Sort of like some of our Foretravel engines. :D
Got to hope John H does not read this or we will have a million Amsoil ads here. Just kidding John.
No, it's great stuff. So good that you usually put a few miles on a new engine with conventional oil and then change over as the synthetic seems to stop all wear and the rings need to seat. I've seen high mileage synthetic cylinder walls with the crosshatching still visible.
Pierce
You can run these on a diesel engine. They work awesome. You can run them on the transmissions, and even as a fuel filter, with different cartridges.You c see everything going on. All my friends run them on their race cars. All the Street Outlaw guys have them
Look to lower right on my engine picture. Picture of cartridge after the first dyno hit with new aluminum engine
They are made right here in Spokane but Jessica and Mike fellow racer's. You can buy them through Summit. They can't build them fast enough
Here is Jessica, with Big Chief at the Semi show.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pdD4dyjAmA
Here is Mike. He has helped me a bunch with my combo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wATX_RX-H9s
Similar filters have been around for over 20 years for industrial engines,have used them on engines with over 100 gal. capacity.They
come in different micron sizes,one drawback is that you either have to have a spare to change out or clean the existing filter,we
would run ours until it reached a point and a light would signal it's time to clean.
Another type is the Spinner 2 system,it's a by-pass system and does work,can be seen at TF Hudgens in Houston.
JMO=just my opinion, not a brand of filter
I had the block replaced in my Dodge pickup at 177,000 miles by Cummins due to the famous #53 block problem. It had only seen Walmart dino oil. Crosshatching was very visible in all cylinders.
Found this on a Cat sight. Have seen it many other places.
So.... you met to say IMHO?
Yes on the 15-40 for my location 117 summer, -13 winter for grand total diverse weather range of 130 degrees. 4 seasons for sure. 4 sets of clothes. Coach length varies depending on the weather. LOL. Coach House so I can get some work done year around hopefully now.
OK
So after several stops at a bunch of places, no one carries 10/30 Diesel oil. Yes, some places have synthetic, or synthetic blend. I know lots of you like synthetic, as I mentioned, when I saw the oil pressure in my new 20K race car engine go to 10 psi idling, then while checking the oil, it ran off the stick like water, I just wasn't impressed. Once I switched to 20/50 Lucas racing oil, bam, normal oil 40-45 psi idling pressure. I know, I get the better lubricating of synthetic, but I guess I am just old school!
Didn't post this to talk you out of synthetic oil, I realize it's benefits, but even the Cat engine manual doesn't recommend it. I know it was written a few years ago. I realize many of you have had success with it, that is great.
After a bunch of research, I found out Cat 10/30 and 15/40 oil is made by Mobil. It's the devac 1300 super. Comes with great reviews all over the place. Super oil for older diesel engines, helps with ash from the fuel. Most the time I don't run bio fuel anyway. When it talked about deposits behind the rings, it got my attention.
I can understand why many of you want to run 15/40, that makes sense in higher temps,but 10/30 is good to 104 F. Since our engine is new and getting broken in, I feel 10/30 will be better for it. Probably won't drive it much this winter, but will this fall, and next spring.
So here is the Deal. Summit has the oil, in 15/40, and 10/30 for $14.99 a gallon.Other sizes are out of stock. Over $100.00, free freight. But wait, it gets better. Mobile has a rebate of $7.40 on a gallon, up to 10 gallons. Good till the end of the year:
10/30
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mob-122485-1
15/40
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mob-122492-1
From their sight:
Mobil Delvac 1300 Super motor oil is an advanced diesel formula that helps extend engine life, allowing you to run your business with confidence. These products meet or exceed OE requirements and deliver high performance in both on and off-highway applications. Fully backward compatible, Delvac 1300 Super delivers exceptional performance in both newer and older heavy-duty engine designs. Accordingly, it meets or exceeds the requirements of API CK-4, CJ-4, CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, and CH-4 service categories, as well as key factory requirements.
Cheers Chris
Mobil Delvac 1300 Super...$10.97 at Walmart. With $7.00 rebate/gal jug 10 limit...Now thats a nice discount...$3.97/gal.
John
Up to Off Mobil Delvac™ engine oils | Mobil Delvac™ (https://mobiloil.com/en/promotion/mobil-promotions/60-off-diesel-domain)
That is a good price for 15/40. But can't even order 10/30 in at wally world ......But this still works out from summit $1.95 a qt for 10/30.
I took 3 cases of Delo back to Costco today.
$120.00 for 5 gallon plus tax at cat, then they have to order it in. Otherwise, $20.00 a gallon plus tax, and I have to drive 20 miles in traffic.
Thanks for the great input ;)
^.^d do what makes you confident, at that oil price run the engine several hours to flush out any stray stuff, and change oil. but your shop looked pretty clean. I'm guessing you chose a machine shops that also was clean. ^.^d
What was the weight of the synthetic you used?Was it 20w50?
In the race car, it was 10/30 Joe Gibbs Driven racing oil. Cost $150.00. Dumped it out 2 times (20 qts). What a waste of $300.00. It was recommended with Alcohol, running less then .025 clearances. Which I have.That was after a $100.00 of Joe Gibbs break in oil , and another oil change of Delo 10/30 to clean the engine.
Thinking of adding a Amsoil bypass filtration on our M11 using Valvoline Premium blue extreme oil 5W-40 and a donaldson blue filter for the high flow filter. Not sure if this is a waste of money or not but considering the investment, and the cost of replacing the engine, thinking this might be a good thing. I use synthetic oil only in my jeep so why not the cummins?
Either Foretravel or HMC put a Luberfiner LF 500 by-pass on my '81 I Have the LF-750 on my crane. It adds capacity and does collect a lot of crud.
Bob,
Your M11 is good with just "regular" oil and filters for a million miles. And that is pulling a lot more weight in OTR trucks. So, I do not see the oil system as a weak point that needs improvement.
oil bypass filters can promote cleaner oil by using a very low micron filter. That being said they work in bypass mode by bleeding a small quantity (most likely 10% or less) of filtered oil from the engine based on the oil pressure required to operate the bypass filter system. Therefore at lower or idle oil pressures they may have very little volume flow and filtering ability. As the bypass filter starts to get clogged less volume of oil flows through it due to increased pressure drop, so it loses its filtering ability based on volume. As long as you understand these two basic physical limitations that no amount of hype can defeat, do what makes you happy.
Having used the bypass filters for at least 30 years I 've never had one"clog up" and I go one year.As for the million miles I agree
but the other side of the coin is what if every person on this forum or elsewhere that had an overhaul done was using synthetic oil?
Just read my engine book and it talks about cleaning the oil tube from the air compressor when it gets coked up with hot oil
synthetic would stop that.
As Brett says, regular oil is good for several hundred thousand miles and is not a "weak" point in most conditions. Where the synthetic shines is with owners who can't get it in their head that they can't just shut the engine off at the top of a grade where the photo op is or after a good pull, stop for lunch or dinner without cooling the oil for several minutes. Petro oil will coke in these conditions and ruin turbos and then possibly cause high EGTs that can damage the engine from ruined turbo seals. Most of the new OTR trucks are now programmed to fast idle for up to 20 minutes after stopping to allow the oil to cool down to a point where there is no "heat soak."
Synthetics are great in forgiving the uninformed owner but not necessary to insure long life. Yes, a bypass filter will collect a lot of crud and a pretty good idea to me. Nice to have one with a spring loaded valve to not allow flow at low pressures as not to drop oil pressure at idle.
I run synthetics in everything from chain saws to our cars but just not the U300 as I like to change oil once a year (old school) and can't justify the extra expense.
Pierce
Ditto. Mobil 1 in all gasoline engines. Either Shell Rotella T or Delo in the diesels (try to stick with what brand previous owner used).
I have a caterpillar 3126B engine That I run Rotella T6 synthetic oil. I run a OPS eco pure filter system with a 10 inch filter. I now have 190,000 miles and running strong, I change all filters at 20,000 miles and send in a oil sample at this time, I do change oil at this time even tho sample always shows good to go.
Bill