This topic of drop in replacement Lithium batteries is very interesting and would certainly make life easier to upgrade my house battery bank. I have 2 8g8d batteries each with 225 AH which means at 50% usage the maximum I would be able to use is 225 AH.
The drop in replacements could have as much as 300 AH each which at 80% usage just about doubles my current battery bank and would cut off a lot of weight also. Reprograming my inverter/charger and using my existing solar, generator, etc seems like it is too good to be true. The one downside ( a big one ) is cost. One such company is GreenLife.
I have been reading about some of you electrical geniuses and your solar/lithium projects- am jealous of your expertise and your ability to fabricate your systems. Your results seem to make the project worthwhile so if you would like to discuss this idea here I would appreciate it and I bet some others might also.
Thanks in advance....................... ^.^d
Ted here is an email I sent to someone who was asking about Lithium batteries, a few years ago I built a 1000Ah LiFePO4 system for my Newell that worked great and is still going strong in a friends coach. BTW I'm not a genius but did spend countless hours researching this project:
"The 3 gels 8D in my FT are about 13 years old but still going strong. But since we'll be spending 5-6 months on the road to Alaska next year I plan to replace them this winter. I'm looking at 2 "drop-in" LiFePO4 systems right now: BattleBorn and LifeBlue, both have BMS built-in. I'll only need 3-100Ah batteries to replace or slightly exceed the 3 8Ds. The prices are about $1000/100Ah battery. Both of these manufacturers have USA suppliers, BattleBorn tests and assembles the batteries in Nevada and has a 3 year warranty and has been in business 5 years. LifeBlue imports the complete batteries from China, they have a 5+5 year warranty (5 years free replacement + 5 year prorated) but have only been in business 1 year.
Unfortunately I haven't found a USA supplier that is stocking the individual large cells anymore. They appear to be available but from what I've heard you have to pre-pay then wait for delivery which could be 2-6 months depending if the Chinese manufacturer has them in stock or has to make them. But warranty is a big if. And the price is not much less than BB or LB once you add a BMS, battery straps, display, etc.
I don't want to take that risk and the time line won't work for me. So that brings me back to my choice of BB & LB. If you decide to build a system using individual cells of LiFePO4s it is pretty easy if you understand wiring basics, you can buy the bus bars to connect them, there are a few BMS systems available (which is a must since it protects the individual cells from over/under voltage, and also prevents charging/discharging at low/high temperatures).
Not sure how much you've researched these yet but LiFePO4s (Lithium Iron Phosphate) are very safe, the electrolyte won't burn. Some people are re-purposing Lithium Ion systems from various hybrid/electric cars. I'm not knowledgeable about those systems but you can find blogs on google. I think there is a safety factor to consider and the charging profiles may be different.
The system I built and that a friend is still using consisted of 4 1000Ah cells. I found it much easier to build and install the 4 large cells. But the supplier Balqon is defunct. A couple USA suppliers have them listed on the webpages but check into the actual supply and lead time. That would be my first choice to build a system. Second is to buy "drop-in" 12vdc batteries like the BB or LB. Victron makes a very nice system but it is much more $$$$. Both BB & LB have responded to my emails in a day or 2.
I mounted the cells in the basement where the 4 8Ds were, I pulled out the rack and after redoing the compartment I bolted in a 3/4" plywood floor and used 2" aluminum angle to surround the pack. I also had room to add a shelf above them for storage. I removed 1200# and added 400# so saved 800#.
Charging is the most complicated to figure out. I was able to get the old Freedom 25 to charge at an acceptable rate after much trial and error but after charging I would turn the charger off. My friend added a new inverter and I think has it set up to automatically charge then turn off.
Also you need some protection for your engine alternator and belts. Since this system can accept such a high charge rate it can literally suck the insides out of the alternator. If the pack is down and you start driving it will cause the alternator to overheat if it doesn't eat the belts first. I changed the voltage regulator to a Balmar MC-614 which is programmable to limit the output and worked well.
Solar panels work great with a system like this.
I have 4 100watt panels which produce 14Ah/hour in good sun. I've figured out that I use 100-150Ah overnight so 300Ah LiFePO4 should work for me and I should be able to fully recharge with solar. I'll probably disable the alternator and keep the charger turned off unless I need to make up more charge.
The first thing to figure out is how often do you plan to dry camp? Then calculate exactly how many Ah you use in a 24 hour period, your big residential fridge will use the most. Then how will and how often will you recharge what you used? If you add solar then recharging becomes pretty simple at least for how many watts the panels provide.
Here are a couple websites to begin researching: LiFePO4 Batteries On Boats – Marine How To (https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/)
Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar - Cruisers & Sailing Forums (http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f14/)
This is my post about my install: Lithium battery install (http://newellgurus.com/showthread.php?tid=1149)
Here are a few other suppliers:
starkpower.com/product/12-volt-100ah-battery/ $850, free shipping, built-in BMS, bluetooth, 2 year warranty, not in stock
Lithium Ion Batteries (https://shop.pkys.com/Lithium-Ion-Batteries_c_796.html) Victron batteries
EVTV Motor Verks Store: CALB CA180FI 180Ah LiFePo4 Cell, Lithium Battery... (http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=CA180) individual cells
batteryspace.com individual cells
evassemble.com China company. individual cells
Best drop in batteries out there, Relion.
Best Lithium Iron Phosphate Batteries | RELiON (https://relionbattery.com)
A buddy has had them in his sailboat for a few months and the improvement over lead acid is amazing. Quicker charging, more AH, less generator time and fuel to charge, etc.
He did all the research over months and came to the conclusion they were better than Battleborn (although pricier) and he wanted the best. I guess only time will tell, but so far he is thrilled.
Nice stuff. Single unit only? Did I read the specs correctly. Cannot be charged below 32 degrees or stored over 95 degrees.
Kept indoors? in moderate climate? seems like a nice power source
I would mount them inside the RV. I plan on putting my lithium bank where my trash compactor used to be.
Relion also has a cold weather battery with built in heaters that bring the battery up to a safe temperature before accepting a charge. Its all done automatically inside the battery. Using them cold is not an issue. Charging them cold causes problems.
An 8d with the heaters? Is that the hp version?
Here is a thread on this topic over on the Wanderlodge board. It's real long and has some unrelated mods in it but VERY informative. Not to mention he has skills way above my pay grade.
TOM
1983 PT35 Project - modernification / restomod - Wanderlodge Owners Group (https://www.wanderlodgeownersgroup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28126)
Far as I know, I would NOT use a "drop in " LiFePo4 battery out there, unless things have changed in the last few months. You have to build the system around them. And at those prices, you don't want to mess around with them. Almost any charger you have on board, and alternator, will not be compatible with lithium and will kill them eventually. I may be wrong on this, but doubt it. I did extensive research for the last year or so.
We purchased this coach pretty much due to the 1500 watts of solar and 600 ah of Victron lithium and multiplus. Yes its expensive. But they make a system that will last provided I don't screw it up. AM Solar installed them for the PO and did a good job.
RV Geeks has a new system by Xantrex that also looks pretty sweet. Not out yet to the general public.
I used to think I would build my own, and would have. But it would have been a system built from the ground up to be a Lithium system. I would hesitate to do anything else.
Now if things have changed that would be nice...... but buyer beware.
I have had mine for close to two years now. I purchased two 200A Victron as a kit and set them up per AM Solar. My system is operated with both the Multipass 3000 and the Victron 85 MPPT set for lithium. Some observations;
Mine are literally in the old rack. The ventilation in this area has kept them within temperature limits. BUT that area has flow through ventilation and top, bottom and all sides are open to the air flow. I have a temp monitor in the compartment and have been within limits. The compartment has consistently been cooler than ambient when the AC is on. I have not operated in the high temp areas of the country. Out of an abundance of caution, before our next outing, I am adding a blower and considering an opening with a fan under the couch to circulate cool air from the coach.
In retrospect, I would have purchased the 5 x 90A and placed them in the file cabinet space or under the fridge in CS floor plan and had no worry.
400A has met all of our needs. I don't have a residential but intend to add a compressor. The most underrated aspect of these sets is recovery time. Going from bulk to float brings generator time way down if you have to use it.
Good luck!
FROM THE BATTLE BORN WEB SITE AND NOW 10YR WARANTEE
NOTE: Charging with an existing lead acid charger or inverter charger that bulk charges at 13.6 volts is acceptable, however it will take longer than a specialized li-ion charging system. These batteries perform best at 14.4 volts bulk and absorption charge.
SO does our stock alternator at +/-13.6v work too...
I can adjust my AIMS inverter-charger to 14.4v
can adjust the solar ? AT MAX i get 52amp so with my usage of 85-215 (residential frige) 2-4 hrs at 80%
Sounds "drop in" to me..
One contrary point - BATTLE BORN BATTERY GOES TO 0%, THAT'S RIGHT the battery internally takes care of the 20%, just like a power tool... ^.^d
So in my Senerio I will take my existing AGM 8D put in in for a start battery at 1500-1800 CA AND buy 3 100ah lithium in place of the 8D... all SMILES
What am I missing?
Here's the cream of the crop when it comes to lithium, 600 amp hour Lithionics 8D and made in the USA. Internal optional heater and several other options. Lithionics has been in the lithium business for 8 years, built in Clearwater Florida. Any size you can imagine.
Lithionics | Lithionics Battery | Advanced Lithium Ion Batteries (http://lithionicsbattery.com/)
Sweet, though I imagine the price will have a bitter taste... No prices on the website, any idea how much for that bad boy? I would like about three, but I don't know if my kidneys would be worth that much :o
Don
I haven't kept up on lithium, but if I remember, they are affected by cold temps. Is that still the case. I would love lithium, but was afraid that our midwest winters would kill the battery pronto.
Larry
Battle Born 100ah(usable) - 10YR warrentee are $949 SHIPPED ^.^d
Isn't Tesla in the Reno, NV area....
I though I read they and AIMS are MILLITARY SUPPLIERS
Don, my concern would be all the cells in one 8d size Vs 100ah each in my case x 3
Any comments/concerns about my plan?
Larry, I share your concern.. when storing
Lithium has come a long way since Musk put in 2 major power installations ASE, HI
Here is what I understand from the Web site and discussions...
1. FULL CHARGED
2. DISCONNECTED LOAD (BREAKER OFF)
3. DISCONNECT BATTERY FROM CHARGE source (BATTERY DISCONNECT)
Even an AGM BATTERY is in trouble at the operating extreams
When in USE - I'm either headed south OR north in thes extream temps.. ^.^d
BATTERY OPERATING RANGE -4 to 160F
Hey I bet if we get some orders we can get a discount....
Battle Born Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) Batteries | altE (https://www.altestore.com/store/deep-cycle-batteries/lithium-batteries/battle-born-lithium-iron-phosphate-lifepo4-batteries-p40844/)
Put me down for 3 Battleborns. Probably will buy them sometime this winter but up for a discount!
Now if they would add a bluetooth individual cell monitoring system like LifeBlue does that would be awesome.
Lithionics is on eBay for 7500$ for 1 battery
Ebay add say about $1 per watt. 7500 watts at 12.5 volts is 600 amphr. Higher $ than others but worth a look. Less weight than 1 8D AGM. Plus all the charging stuff and other bits.
You're right Don, they're not the cheapest in the industry that's for sure, but neither is FT. That 600AH with a 400 amp BMS is a about 9 CBs.
One should do you just fine unless you want to run the roof air all night. But then again, I've seen several of your post and am not surprised you want 3 lol. Very impressive work Don.
I'm using the quote link to reply but doesn't seem to be working, so I apologize for that everyone.
Folivier, the optional internal heater draws 30 watts @12v and uses an external toggle switch which will keep her warm all winter with a little solar. It's a $350 add on to the battery.
Our Victron is 600 AH, say 480 usable. I would like to add an additional 300 AH in the future, possibly 600 if the price comes down.
400 has served us well but 600 would have meant less monitoring and conservation for our 270. We do not have a residential.
The built in heaters are a real plus. My biggest worry initially was an accidental charge below freezing. AM Solar has created a board that automatically shuts down charging at low temps. Lessens the possibly forgotten solar kickin on a cold morning.
The Battleborn & Lifeblue batteries both monitor temperature and shut down the batteries if temp. is above or below their set point.
On my U320 the battery compartment is next to the Aquahot compartment, so if I need to I'll cut a vent through that bulkhead to allow the AH heat to warm the batteries. But that issue is more a notation and probably not an issue for most people, certainly me.
Just got this from BattleBorn:
"The 10 year warrant is 8 year full replacement 2 year pro-rated."
This is in response about adding internal bluetooth monitoring to their batteries:
"We are working on new batteries, we are just not given any information until they are ready to be released, so I don't know the specifications as of now. "
My lithium battery setup is where the washing machine used to reside in the head. There is a AC outlet pointing down to it to help keep them cool, and of course the inside is heated if needed. Lost the washer, but don't think I would have used it much anyway. The PO did this thru AM solar so for me it was a non choice, but I could move it all to a bay, but don't see any reason to do so. I like where it is. A lot of money went into it, and knowing it is where I can easily monitor it is reassuring. There is room above in the other compartment for additional batteries if needed.
These guys are pretty long winded, but do a good job in explaining the difference in battery types and their advantages.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ7HMRReZKY
Mine finally made it.. Been down with surgery but A friend and my son are helping me.. Hope to get them installed tonight and finished tomorrow.. I had to pull the battery shelf out and retro it as these are a bit bigger than 3ea 8d batteries ^.^d
Says to store at 30-50% SOC. I leave our electric bikes stored at a similar SOC.
what is considered storage? what period of time? 1 month 3 months?
I am assuming whatever time that it is under no load and not charging. I run our bikes down then put them away,
They charge quickly. So overnight before a use? Then leave it down when stored?
Opposite from lead acid anything?
Half charged would still be a lot of amphours in your case especially with no voltage drop visible?
David, who's the manufacture of these lithiums? I notice the life cycles and was surprised it was that low. Am I missing something?
Their DOD is great as all lithiums are! Thanks in advance for your help with those questions.
4pcs/lot 3.2V 400Ah lithium Ion Lifepo4 battery For Electric Car/ Bus /BMS/... (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4pcs-lot-3-2V-400Ah-lithium-Ion-Lifepo4-battery-For-Electric-Car-Bus-BMS-any-Voltage/32848671518.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.f1a44c4dL1bXGJ)
Another place says 2000 cycles but either way.. If I ran them down every day Id still have a great run
In removing the battery tray form the coach I had a piece of fiberglass the old batteries sat on.. when removed I found 2 holes through the floor and 2 holes in the ceiling of the compartment. Obviously for cooling... wondering if the upper holes come from the interior to help cool and heat the compartment? Never seen the holes before.. maybe someone added the fiberglass for the batteries to sit on after the fact and not OEM?
I will try and get a pic before we install the new batteries..
I was searching for the post comparing lifetime costs of the different batteries, and can't find it. Gel, AGM Lithium and wet.
David,
That looks awesome. Would you mind posting the overall dimension of your built up battery? Also what do you plan to use for charging?
thanks
ken
I will get the measurements.. I have 1200w solar and victron 3000 inverter/ charger. installed one of these for the alternator
LiFePO4 Battery Isolation Manager - Battle Born Batteries (https://battlebornbatteries.com/shop/lifepo4-battery-isolation-manager/)
Everything is finally installed and charging.. will test in the next couple weeks
When my inverter blew up I planned on lithium so I built it to accommodate lithium from the get go. It is also set up for regular batteries or agm so it was a win win.
Batteries I bought are UL listed for those really worried about it..
Says they can take a charge at 1C. Wow. Maybe a separate charger?
Wow, that's 15KWH! That's an above-average amount of power, and fairly light weight. Will your BMS will be monitoring each cell?
I have cells just like these in my rig for the engine battery.
If you paid $1,800 x 3=$5,400, you paid too much. That said, you got new, 12 volt, maintenance-free batteries that will last 10+years and have many advantages. EV lithium batteries will soon be selling at $100/KWH, ($1,500 for your pack) since we are on the cusp of an EV revolution. This will be a great boon to RV'ers.
See: Nissan Leaf Battery G1 Module Lithium Ion 24 kWh 500 watt per module Lot of... (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Nissan-Leaf-Battery-G1-Module-Lithium-Ion-24-kWh-500-watt-per-module-Lot-of-48/123317670575?hash=item1cb64e52af)
The Nissan is only suited for a 24 or 48 volt system. My house battery is 48 volts.
Paid under $5k for the batteries. Find a cheaper solution within the Lifepo4 Chem for the amount of AH and I would like to see it.. With BMS.. I am all ears?
The best explanation of cycle life.
lithium & solar power LiFePO4, FAQ: What is the real cycle life for lithium... (http://gwl-power.tumblr.com/post/97128890296/faq-what-is-the-real-cycle-life-for-lithium)
The above link is to clear up the 1,500 - 2,000 cycle comments.
Way to go DavidS, I believe you will have these for a long time as you have installed a more than just adequate system. At an estimate of 1500, 2000, 3000, or maybe 5000 you might be at 80% of your original ahs, incredible, well worth your investment.
I too am looking at doing something similar, so I will look forward to all your posts and comments and also others that have installed lifepo4 systems in their rv.
After install... Batteries were at 12.9v .. I waited around a couple minutes for everything to reboot and start up.. Charger kicked in and went to 13.1v ....
Went to breakfast as my son was hungry which is a rarity.. On checking the Victron app. Batteries went into bulk mode right away. Never seen it with the last set of lithium.. it was like it was wrestling them to get charged past the 12.8v nominal.. They were used and I have no starting reference with them but I think they were bad.. excited with these for sure..
Charge is set to bulk at 14.4v and float at 13.8v
Will add pics in a min. Son moved my cord.
Tight squeeze I must say.. 12ea pieces 33" wide 12" tall and 16" deep with the tray
Looks terrific. Nice installation. Hopefully, we have a few years left on our AGMs but a price drop will make this hard to beat. Had been looking at fork lift batteries with their 1/4" plates but bet yours is a lot lighter.
Pierce
Approx 375lb of batteries and probably another 50lb or so for the tray and clamped side pieces so a little over 440lb approx...1200ah total..
Also I spent $4600.00 for these batteries..try and purchase 2000ah of agm and see what the total would be.. then the longevity of the lithium I think its a no brainer.. For me anyways
That's a lot lighter than fork lift batteries and 1200ah is huge. It is a no brainer if paying anywhere close to list. I was lucky as I picked up ours from a bankrupt company for almost nothing. How is lithium if you have a power failure in a storage facility and parasitic load flattens them?
Pierce
BMS protected.. it will shut itself off if voltage gets to low or charging gets to high. Full protections.
I was not trying to rain on your parade. You have embarked on an exciting home-brew lithium learning experience.
A couple of notes:
1. How would you like to earn back 30% on all your costs?
Just put even one new solar panel on your rig and you can claim the batteries, wiring and BMS on your federal taxes.
2. I like your simple clamping mechanism. This will keep the cells from bulging.
3. It's good that you got new matched batteries. I bought my LiFePo4s at a discount, but they were not very well matched, which resulted on several cells being damaged. A relay driven by the BMS shorted and overcharged the battery bank. Long story.
4. Are all your cells monitored by the BMS? If not, they should be. I installed the Orion BMS Jr, which cuts off charging when even one cell reaches >3.6 volts or < 2.5 volts. It can monitor up to 16 cells.
5. I would recommend folks buy a full 48 volt used Nissan Leaf pack. See: RV House Battery Part 2: Reconfigure the Nissan Leaf Modules to 48 Volts -... (https://youtu.be/LV8fyzOTjsk)
These packs have at least 18KWH left in them for about $3,200 per my above eBay link. However, since thay are used, you cannot claim the 30% tax credit if you are installing solar panels. I recommend 18KWH as a minimum because my 9KWH LiFePo4 pack quickly gets run down if I leave the inverter on while boondocking on a cloudy day.
No Rain here.. I have used the Tax credit on the solar
All BMS protected .. So far so good.. ^.^d
Supercaps, are THE up and Coming Tech, I have been following! This was 2 years ago, but once they get rolling, I might do this in maybe ALL my power needs, Home, and Motorhome! An Electric Foretravel, anyone? :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K8JIC-ov_Y
BTW, I knew that Elon Musk was Primarily interested in this Tech, in his Grad Studies. He may apply his "Power Wall" in a Supercap Flavor some day.....we can only hope?
It might take another 100yrs for the price to come down.. So it is affordable.
I want one! That video was in '16, so I wonder where they are at now with this new technology? What a boon for those of us who love to boondock!
Supercaps have a low amount of Watt-Hours. E.g. Ten watt hours. BUT, they pack a wallop in instant power. E.g. 2000Amps.
I did not buy one because of the price, but I may eventually buy one to start the engine faster in cold weather.
Listening to him though, they feel they will replace batteries? Possible, it's a Let's wait and see, I guess? They have that so called "Proprietary" method to Slowly release those Amps, he "Says"?
Elon has built a fantastic vision, and a incredible house of cards, don't think it will last much longer.
OK, that being said, he just seems to reinvent himself, over and over! Admirable in any measure, check out what I just found, on the Super-Caps, and Possible Acquisition of Maxwell Technologies! This might be a real Game Changer....can you say, chuck the Diesel Tank, On- Board Generator, and Diesel Engine, and have it all? Maybe Keep a Small Diesel Tank, and Larger KWH Genny, for an even longer range? Check this out! Interesting if true!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8wdeqS3UlU
If it happens, and is what they claim it is, it would be THE Stock to buy, ASAP! Wow!
And, for a Real-True, Pie-in-the-Sky, a Tesla TOAD, that not only has Regen Braking, But Regen Mode while being Towed 4 Down! Hmmmmm All good, huh? 4000+ Watts on the Roof, And Imbedded in the 'Glass Gel, on Both sides of the Coach, in full sun would give Great Boondocking capability, as well! Hey, one can dream....Tesla sure can, and does bring Excitement, to our Technological world, without a doubt!
Odd, but I tend to dream at night.
I recommend 20KWH of batteries for our rigs. I did the math.
This is about the power of a Nissan Leaf G1 battery pack.
I did the math on this and put in 3 new 8d agm's. I feel alright with my choice ;) We aren't prolific boondockers though and I don't mind the inefficient charging using my little $150 sportsman generator that gets 10 hours on a soda can's worth of gasoline. That said if the Prosine 2.5 fails near end of battery life I'd make the upgrade. For any of those considering anything other than LiFePO4 I wouldn't. People who make the DIY powerwalls out of old laptop batteries (incredibly economical!) sometimes have fires. If I made such a thing I would build it in its own structure.
A lot of different chemistry's. Make sure you know what your talking about before you claim fires.. Any documents showing a LIFEPO4 fire?
Agree with you, appears all the big names in rv lithium batteries, are using LIFEPO4 now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOqQp2Xjr6U
Re-read - I was speaking of daring to use other chemistries ;) Most of the people doing DIY powerwalls are using recycled 18650 cells using one of the other more volatile chemistries. If you use lifepo4 you could probably make it work with the xantrex charger and some careful attention.
Victron charger .. victron controller .. dropped in the batteries and all I do is check the voltage.. but it's a waste of time for me. Batteries have bms and solar. Honestly have done nothing but use them.. so far it's been great . Sorry for the misread .. lifepo4 is the safest way to go.. that I know of. Not sure on the other chemistry