Moved my thoughts about the poor water spill management of the FT coach. As it went off topic in the tech section.
"Quote from: Roger & Susan in Home2 - 17 hours ago
They are well built coaches. Some may have not been maintained and kept that way. Just imagine, you could have bought a Winnebago."
Well I agree that it is solidly built. I'll rephrase it to lacking in design. I.E. A water tank overflow that was designed (on purpose?) to pour and hold said water in the bulkhead area that has open untreated steel that holds the rear half of the coach together? Yep! That's well designed.
A belly that is sealed and acts as another water holding tank for when you get the inevitable water leak or burst Aqua-Hot? Yep! That's well designed.
The pan under the Aqua-Hot can't even come close to containing the fluids it has above it? Yep! That's well designed.
Those major design flaws had easy solutions if done in the design phase. But FT couldn't be bothered.
It just boggles the mind that for all the nice things that FT did to make a pretty interior. They just walked away from the design board when it came to the one thing that kills coaches. 'water retention' and left it up to the owners to ensure that there is never an accidental leak. REALLY?
I will likely never be able to sell my coach as I have morals and a conscience. I'm stuck with it. Our coach has been beset with leaks over the last three years. I had no idea that Foretravel designed this coach in a way that insures that any leak will never dry out. That does not scream 'well designed' Especially in a $400,000 coach in 1998. Maybe FT should have included a drill and bit as a leak repair kit.
When I designed fixtures for chipmaking machines I had a philosophy when it came to fixture design and chips. If I couldn't keep the chips out I would design the fixture(s) to let the chips out. Worked for me. In fact, I went to Stroh Diecasting in Milwaukee area to quote a new machine. When they told me their problem was chips affecting the locating of the hard drive housing for a computer manufacturer I told them my design criteria. Didn't get a machine order. They altered their fixtures.
My point is, that if Foretravel didn't design their coaches to let water out from spills, leaks, etc, maybe someone in the repair business should look at installing louvers or rubber "duckbills" along the bottom to let water out.
They could have easly done some rust preventing measures in the bulkhead, and bay areas. But who would have thunk back then these 20-30 year old coaches would have the following they have now.
The design flaw (re: Bulkheads) I see is the design ASSUMPTION, that coach's would only be used in a "perfect world" by knowledgeable owners. Under those conditions, the coaches ARE close to perfect.
But, that assumption would exclude "normal owners" who may not be as careful with water spills in the wet bay and/or operation on roads with salt.
The good news is that (now) in Nacogdoches there are places to repair bulkhead issues. And, the price is generally not excessive. And, there is sufficient documentation here on the ForeForum for those "very well-qualified" do it yourselfers.
This is the cause. If you think the problem lies in the water overflow, I suggest you don't drive in the rain or snow either. You get far more water that way than from the overflow.
I think it stems from FT being a low volume producer that has gotten even lower under new management. They have a small number if units to test under. The advent of spartan underpinnings is a step up for them. They should have much fewer chassis issues.
East Texas mentality is what those of us who worked for Foretravel back when the unihomes were being designed and made had experienced many times.
Like the 80's coaches with a round top edge entry mid door and a square molding on the wall over it.
Did not compute for them.
In oct 87 at the Unihome introduction I mentioned to a young James T that the painted 18 gauge tubing and roloks would be problematic over a long time and that they would be doubled up and might finally use Huck bolts to hold things together.
Has not thought about the rust jacking back then.
James handed me a air impact gun and a Rolok and had me install the fastener. Easy to do.
C.M and Ray mentioned getting input from a customer who built truck trailer chassis and he used the Roloks and separately had them add the wedge style little corner piece to reinforce the main assembly.
But, two entirely different ways for water to get into the bulkhead area. Water from the wet bay leaking down (gravity) into the bulkhead area has been well discussed.
Driving in rain (water outside coach) gets in because the serrations (serve lock washer function) on the Rolocks provide a "stand off" that allows water to migrate in the threads of the Rolocks. VERY easily fixed as discussed many years ago by masking off the bolt heads and using regular automotive undercoating to seal the bolt to angle "gap".
At least the basement floor is a bolt on item that as has been stated. We know of a coach owner that had a SOB that was totaled due to the basement floor failure due to rust. Now this wasn't an old junker but a 2000ish that is built similar to the new IH that has the new chassis. They have told us that they weren't the only owners that have went down that road.
You could remove the lou ann cover off the basement and leave the structure open so it could dry. Some coach builders of the 90's like Vogue left the undercarriage exposed on the "V" coaches to let the area dry.
Could FT have done better in some areas, Yes, but they are head and shoulders above most of the market that is available.
Pamela & Mike
To the group. I'm sure that there are those on this forum that would like to ban me for even questioning the Foretravel design or not looking toward Nac and bowing my head in reverence.
But please understand that my only coach experience has been this Foretravel and it hasn't been a good one.
So here I sit between a rock and a hard place. While I enjoy the RV experience. I get up every day wondering "my God, What have I done" I never expected it to be perfect and free of cost. But at $10 per mile we have traveled in just maint and repairs so far. I'm not sure I can keep this up. And I will likely need the bulkheads done as well.
No, no one wants to ban you and many of us have issues with several design flaws. I can't imagine traveling to Nac but I don't go to RV shows either. As I said before, Foretravel makes a limited amount of coaches and can't be expected to match the design and quality of a bus. On the other hand, Foretravels are head and shoulders above most of the crowd. I got way more than expected for $21,500 but would have been bitterly disappointed if I paid the $300,000 plus that it cost new. Bottom line for any buyer: Buying new, you should have a big ready reserve on top of what you paid for the repairs that WILL occur. Used buyers should study every forum post and be ready to reject any coach with corrosion, poor maintenance, etc. no matter how much the airfare costs or what you have paid the inspector. A bargain coach that drops a valve can easily cost $20K to $30K for engine repair. Most of the time, you make your own luck but trouble can bite anyone of us.
In my opinion, you should be reasonably good at DIY repairs, or you WILL spend a lot per mile of "RV adventure."
Pierce
I think when you buy a used RV of any type or brand, what you end up with is, in part, simply the luck of the draw. You can't inspect for every possible problem, and you can't know everything that has been done (or not done) by every prior owner. Some of us have been fortunate in our purchase...some of us not so much. Buying a 20 to 30 year old vehicle is always gonna be a roll of the dice.
..And don't overfill your water tank.
Sorry for your frustration. Any 20 year old coach, is going to need repairs. Other brands even more. As a tech, I won't even work on any coach (other then a FT) that is 97 or older. They are all rusty and crusty, most systems are antiquated.
I grew up in the industry, worked at Revcon in the chassis shop as the automotive Foreman in the early 70's, then welding foreman. Those coaches were top of the line. $22,000.00 when a Class A was 8K. They had all kinds of issues too.They even had a test coach they drove around a track for weeks at a time, slamming on the brakes, going over spend bumps, then accelerating hard. They put close to 100 K miles on that coach testing. They still had issues.
My friend bought a 2007 Monaco 42' tag. He just spent 2K on his Onan gen for new Injectors. He has a payment over a grand for what seems like the rest of his life.I have had to fix several issues, and he still has more.
All RV's are going to have issues, none are trouble free. You can buy a new one for $2-3 hundred K, and I promise it will be back to the dealer over and over for warranty issues. Most the time they will keep it for 2-3 months.Warranty issues are the least of their care's. Selling is what it's all about.
As the owner of HWH told me once "They are all sticks and staples"
I choose to buy an older FT, because yes, I can work on it. I also knew I would still have to invest a minimum of 10-15 K. I figure if I have even 60K in one, that I may not get out of it, I have a coach that is way better then any 150 K used coach, and maybe even most of the new coaches out there.
As a tech, FT did care about those early gen coaches. Service was way above par. You got what you paid for, because everything little thing was taken care of.
Did they miss some stuff? Yes, do new cars miss stuff? yup. They all have a new this and that, that new upgraded board you pay for.
All motorized mechanical things have issues, and they don't always find out till they put it out there.Take your home, mount it on a trailer, drag it down the road. See how long it stays together.
Chris
Wow, that's some high priced injectors
Ralph
96 U270
When we decided we were ready to buy a coach we understood that all of it would be an expense....a constant outflow of our hard earned cash. The lifestyle doesn't generate income, just expenses. We decided we were okay with this going in and for us it was worth it.
That said to minimize the cash out flow I educated myself. I spent a couple of years learning about the brands, their support and construction, and 'forecastable' ongoing expenses from consumables...tires, airbag, annual maintenance, etc.
The result of my due diligence brought me to Foretravel.... it was still in business, coaches seemed better built than any others in their price range and they were still supporting older coaches with parts and service. I also discovered there were several businesses in NAC supporting the brand. Most important was finding this forum, a collection of passionate and generous FT owners that are constantly willing share knowledge and help others keep these classic coaches on the road.
Once we were ready to start looking for a coach I reached out to Brett Wolfe. I secured his services before I found a coach. Based on several conversations with Brett I decided I wasn't buying a coach without his help. I am pretty handy but these are incredibly complex machines. I knew an expert was needed.
I knew an expert inspection would help me sort through to find the best sorted coach I could find. Some of this was luck. My coach popped up on this forum and because I was prepared after 5 minutes of it being mentioned on the forum I contacted MOT, made a deposit and bought the coach pending the outcome of the inspection. A big part of this was luck in that this coach was very well sorted but I believe my self-education and patience gave me a leg up.
All of the cash we've spent has been for things we elected to change and for routine maintenance. We know the cash will continue to go out... that is part of this lifestyle.
For anyone thinking of buying a FT, the trick is to do the work to prepare before you buy a coach. Learn as much as you can about these coaches. This forum is key. Get expert help to minimize potential problems before you drive off in your new coach. Know that this will be expensive. Plan on not getting your money out. Be sure you are okay with this in advance.
Hope this helps in some way. Safe travels.
The $10 a mile mention has happened to countless new luxury coach owners who put low miles on their coaches.
I applauded the ones who put miles on their new coaches, couple of bucks per mile.
20 year used tend to be 10-20 cents a mile overall.
If you drive your coach another 100k Miles then your costs will be spread over longer use.
Rving is not for everyone. Most HERE are not deep wallet people, some are of course.
You will be surprised if you ever own most SOB's, most of their issues were built in not from use.
If you remember I stated that you were unfortunately unlucky when you first posted here about the aquahot original issue you had.
Now you know that a unprepared winter stored coach is not good.
Live and learn. If you move daily and do not have pets then hoteling and a nice car are similar in cost to owning a nice rv.
But they do not tend to put the hotels in a beautiful setting. And no room service.
If normal maintenance/repair items are catastrophic occurrences then the rv ownership may be an ugly experience.
I delivered hundreds of coaches as a rv guy and told every owner that I guarantee that there are bad parts in this coach.
Offered free repairs and have my phone on 24/7.
Last allegedly perfect person died several thousand years ago and he did not build rv's or own them or service them.
I used to tell customers that these are made in the USA by good ol' boys. Not made overseas. I had customers many times have me take their new to them coach out on a dry camp rv trip to eliminate most of the bugs prior to their use.
Worked great for almost every one. But I'm picky and knew the coaches well.
I drive in the rain AND let the water overflow. I'm not concerned of a little water overflow.....the rain is another story. Forget about snow, I ain't goin there.
I didn't mention anything about driving in the rain or overfilling the tank, I do both but I draw the line at snow. But I will guarantee at some point in your coaches life it will have a broken water fitting/ plumbing leak, bay door left ajar in the rain. Water in no way out= rust, just saying.
Caflashbob, One of my issues was that due to the types of failures I have had and where/when I had them. It has cost me so much in time waiting for shop openings. As the winters here negate using the coach this far north easily and the fact that the wife wasn't retired yet. My breakdowns of course occurred in the busy season. The Aqua-hot cost me 8 weeks in the shop during peak camping season up here in addition to the 3-4 week wait to even get it into the shop at RnR. Didn't get to take the coach out till October that season. So it was only one trip that year.
I think the group might misunderstand. My wife & I never went into this expecting anything other than having to spend some money. And we are fully aware that we will not make it back upon selling.
My diatribe which was brought on from the latest water incident. Had me thinking about the design (or lack thereof) involving an RV's water bay/storage area.
Could the wet bays have been lined with a fiberglass tub and had a drain terminate below the belly? Seems that would have been a rather cheap and easy addition to the build process. But hind sight is 20/20.
Frustrating to own a rv. Especially seasonally used. Hopefully a bunch of trouble free trips in glorious conditions will cause the bad luck to fade. We all hope for that same results to our issues
Caveat emptor best describes buying a coach with Aqua-Hot. Webasto is a German company and unless you live in Europe, it's going to cost an arm and a leg to get it fixed and there can be a long wait for a repair person. Anyone living back east with a #2 fuel oil boiler knows about the required maintenance. Toyotomi is about the only manufacturer to make an almost trouble free diesel heater and they recommend a bi-annual tuneup. AH would be an automatic 3 strikes if I were in the market for a later coach (sorry Cub fans today).
It would have been so easy to design a propane fired unit to do the same job. Too bad.
Pierce
While I understand the aquahot maintenance possibilities I would not own a non aquahot coach. Four season use is one of our requirements without mods or preparations and the 1/2 or less temp swings and to not have dried out air are part of the pleasure. "You pay for everyone of your pleasures. If you did not pay as much it probably was not as much fun, was it?" My comment to rv lookers....
Best was the four zone marquis with fan speed controls on their 1991's
Had a primus propane fired boiler system in a bus conversion. Same one as used in older Wanderlodges. Good design, used full coach length passive heating radiators, but lots of problems.
Only one guy [Dupree] in the US have any parts for them and very expensive, Control board and one pump were +$800. Have had three coaches with aqua-hots with no problems, and only maintenance was changing nozzles. As Rudy our resident aqua-hot man has said "Most problems arise because of lack of use".
Propane is best for cooling refrigerators :)) :)) :)) :))
Jerry I have been following your posts from the time you you saw your coach on the forum. You never got home without a costly
repair. If your coach had been for sale a year earlier I would look at buying it, but buy the time it was for sale I had bought Dynasty. Electrically it has been a night mare. My saving grace is I was a heavy duty mechanic so I do my own work and have yet to be stuck.
Hope you and I have better luck with no more brake downs.
I told him I would have done it for a 6 pack..LOL
Cummings NW, they are expensive. It was a full tuneup. You know, plugs, points, rotor, cap and condenser..LOL...They did some other work on it also.
You know, these are mechanical/electrical items that we put on US roads with bumps, holes, junk, and a bunch of other stuff. They suffer so that we can enjoy a lifestyle that most can only dream about. I have driven my coach in the rain...how to avoid it? I have overflowed my fresh water tank, too lazy to keep track of what I was doing. I've spent money to keep the ting on the road, had it diagnosed and repaired to the best of the ability of the mechanic dejure and my pocket book. We have so thoroughly enjoy these past 18 years and would never trade the travels for anything. Now it is time to hang it up and stay close to doctors and friends. I hope when one of you buys our coach you will treat it as well as we have and in another 22 years it will again be on the market having received appropriate care and repairs. Sorry if some of you have had les than stellar experiences with these wonderful means of following the greatest adventure we have ever been on. When someone finally buys out coach we will bid it a fond farewell and always look back with a tear in our eye and a song in our heart.
So many well said sediments.
If I could have my pick of any RV for free, it would be another Foretravel.
Been in, out, and under pretty much every brand out there, in 55 years in the RV industry. I rest my case
Chris
You can call things you don't like or things you wish were different "design flaws" or try to claim that FT didn't care but neither of these are the case. Every thing is a design choice. Some choices are better than others but every choice comes as a balance between design criteria, use expectations, manufacturability and cost. Lots of things could have been done better but they are what they are. I can imagine up all sorts of improvements like a full sized drain pan in the wet bay that would catch any leaks or overflow and provide an outside drain, heated of course so it would be functional in all weather. Same with the fuel tank.
A bit of work but possible especially if the wet bay is empty anyway. In the meantime make all reasonable efforts to reduce risk. Every way to do this has been written up in the Forum. Oh and I went out and looked, my AquaHot has a through-the-floor vent and drain.
Is the pan under your home water heater big enough to hold the entire capacity of the hot water heater and the entire city water system? No. It has a drain line. You have to hope the drain line isn't kinked or the drain isn't plugged up. Because it doesn't have an infinite capacity is that a design flaw? Did the designer just not care? If you have no drain pan then who are you going to blame if there is a leak?
Any coach you buy, any brand, any age will come with problems. Every one will require remedial action or repairs or a work-around. Some coaches will have more of this than others. The more you know about your coach before you buy the more likely you will be to choose a better starting point. Some coaches take a lot more work and money to bring them back up to where you want them to be. This is not a short term adventure. Invest up front and get the rewards for 10 or 20 years going forward. The return on the investment is the adventure and enjoyment of use and the people you meet. When you are done using it you can sell it and get some cash back and start someone else off on an adventure of their own.
Yes, it takes some resources to partake in this lifestyle at this level but it also takes a realistic understanding and acceptance of risk and a budget for time and money going forward for several years. I hope Jerry's hill climb here flattens out and better days are ahead for him. His is not the only rough patch as many of us have worked through them as well.
Chris I agree but a 91-92 marquis would be a close second. Not a unihome. Gillig frame. But no factory
My coach is 29 years old, still mostly looks good, except for sagging headliner in spots, poorly done roof coating by a fly by night, window treatments and carpet are shot. BUT it has good bones. Still needs some to have a modernized inverter system. Solar panels on roof installed by FOC still show a voltage, but appear to be loooong past prime, and the charge controller (simple diode) is toast. That being said it beats anything i have seen at the local RV joints and shows and always exit grinning. BUT i have never been in a tiffen, country coach, or bus conversion.
However the undercarriage steel installed on my ORED at Foretravel is highly substandard in the protective coatings department in terms of prep work, quality of coating, or execution. There are very few traces of any coatings left. They could have done better with a paint brush. Good news is my coach spent most of it's life in socal, and the steel is 1/8" thick or more. So come winter i Hope to wire brush it, and brush on something better.
Oh by the way my coach front end tends to porpose over bumps, it's an Oshkosh chassis thing because the shocks (dampners) don't stroke enough to be effective due to their angle on the swing arm. Can't dampen if you don't stroke. No brainer, extend the effective swing arm length with a piece of angle iron and a new lower shock mount to make shock more vertical, and double, triple, or quadruple the stroke length. $200 mod. If you can't fabricate or weld, $50 if you can
Your front springs may be suffering from metal fatigue. Ours were until we replaced them ($1,700 for springs & labor).
I have part numbers and source. See attached.
Also have disc brake pads and rotor info if you need.
Unfortunately FOT and Oshkosh Truck did not include any of this information. The rear disc brakes are the first ones to go because they do almost all the braking because of the engine weight in the rear.
Roger E,
My homes hot water heater is in it's own alcove mounted on a wooden plinth above a concrete floor in the garage. It was not mounted above our ceiling or the electric breaker panel. This was done for a reason. Which was to prevent a hot water failure from shorting out the electric panel or flooding our home. HMMM! imagine that.
So why would it be unreasonable of me to think that a top end coach builder should be concerned about the number one killer of RV's "water" Especially when that water is directly above an untreated steel structural system. Color me confused.
Phred Oshkosh double polyurethane coated the entire chassis in gloss black.
Shiny black complete undercarriage and cat bright yellow were great personal bragging points for me to sell and the owners to show off to their buddies.
As far as Foretravel steel they did paint everything new.
C.M. Fore's grandfather used to build high quality horse drawn wagons in Nac.
The family were strict church of the Nazarene attendees.
They were square Texas folks who really tried to do things the best way possible.
As far as long term issues the Fore family must have been really stupid as they were among the only companies building rv's that owned their own sales stores and the only one that bought back their own products for resale.
My original personal sales manager trade in limit was $75k ACV in deals without needing any approval. After I had more experience that was raised to $150k real money. 1988....
Bought lots of really old Foretravels and refit them to new like a lot here have done.
If anyone here thinks Foretravel did a poor job you would be severely irritated if you owned a SOB that is half the age of most here.
Read chris's comments closely. He knows as do I and red tractor how much the Fore's really tried to do these right.
I bought our coach KNOWING it probably would take $30k over time to rebuild the coaches systems. No paint
Out Coaches brakes would not release on the demo ride. Coach was a dog power wise. Loud banging noise from mid coach. Giant snakes in the windows. Faded. Flooded cell batteries. Laughed out loud. Richard and Betty had bought it this way. Not on them at all.
Frankly I was grateful to have run across this coach. Most would walk. But everything was fixable for a large application of my cash. And we are not rich. Po folks.
But always said we would own a Foretravel "someday"
But a fixable 97 u320 mid door was not replaceable. Not a front door fan.
Roll the dice. Dig deep to pay.
I still have a grin driving the coach that's hard to wipe off of my face. Ultimate driving machine rv.
Bought two 10 year old top of the line low mile Lexus's in the last year. Same built like a tank engineering.
Just upgrade the electronics and fix the well known issues with them
Bigdog i agree with the poorly coated steel, your water heater thing shows little standard of care. JMO.
I can exert myself, and slap on some good stuff for sure. Just an honest observation, those with bulkheads may agree or disagree. Love my kiss coach.
Jerry, don't get me wrong here, I am not arguing with you and sympathize with the anguish you feel. 20 years ago what was going on in the designer's heads is unknown. But my guess is that after almost 40 years of building coaches the approach to dealing with water leaks inside the coach was to use the most reliable plumbing system possible. Thus we have a central distribution hub (Manibloc) and PEX tubing with all fittings done the way they were supposed to be done at that time which is just about the same as it is today. They spent their time, energy and money making the water system as reliable as possible. Will there be internal water leaks? Probably in a few coaches. A small number compared to the total. And as coaches get to 20 years old maybe more.
The tank overflow in outside of the bays and drains down the rear bulkhead. Not the best place, a longer tube would be nice but then there is the issue of keeping bugs and other things out of the tank. I don't want to have to replace my fresh water tank because there is a dead mouse floating in it.
Fill valves fail, the tank level sensors fail, almost all of us have overfilled the fresh tank a few times and become more attentive to it of figure out a way to minimize the chances of it happening and extend the overflow hose in case it does.
Everyone of us is waiting for the next thing to fail because we know something will. Our preventative measures may reduce risk. Our adaptations may reduce risk. What we do often reduces the potential impact of a failure. Be as prepared as you can be. When something happens don't panic, figure it out, fix it, move on.
Ugh! Dead mouse in the fresh water? I shudder just thinking about that. Our overflow has a piece of aluminum screen, hose clamped on the end of the hose. And the end of the hose is fastened to a wall strut with the hose/screen end about 4" past the strut in open space. I did that.
Phred, our black frame coating is still like new. Maybe because it never saw salt until we bought it, and then only once when I drove it home from getting the fuel system unplugged.
Several of us have re-routed the overflow hose to eliminate the wheel well issue.
Here's what I did: Another slow water leak (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=22279.msg169121#msg169121)
Easy project. I intentionally overfill once in a while to keep the overflow tube washed.
Good Luck, Dave A
Dave, another way to check the fresh water tank level gage.
Very nice. Thanks for the idea
Chris
Guess I don't understand the big concern over the overflow location. Ours is in front of the passenger side duals like some have mentioned. Yes water runs down the outside of the bulkhead when (seldom) I let the freshwater overfill.
This same area gets soaked every time I drive in the rain. What's the difference?
As a retired design engineer, I believe "design flaws" in one person's mind might well be design trade-offs in the mind of the designer. Engineering is all about trade offs.
All engineers and companies are not created equal. So, what do you call someone who graduated deal last in medical school? ..................Doctor.
Pierce
The Ford Pinto – The American Museum of Tort Law (https://www.tortmuseum.org/ford-pinto/)
Just a few more
volkswagen beetle fires - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?q=volkswagen+beetle+fires&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj_udGW1ujdAhUm_4MKHYtDAAEQsAR6BAgFEAE&biw=1280&bih=631)
"All engineers and companies are not created equal. So, what do you call someone who graduated deal last in medical school? ..................Doctor."
He or she graduated medical school. That is a long way from internship and residency and passing the medical licensing test. They may be one of the best doctors today.
I know a lot of lousy engineers and some very good ones too. The basic role of an engineer of any type is to solve problems and every solution has a wide range of cost attributes. Several solutions are often presented just as a doctor might present you with several treatment options. All have pluses and minuses depending on where you place your focus. The design engineer can make his or her case for their preferred solution but they are rarely the final say in the end.
Hindsight is always easy. What it is is not going to change because you think it could have been done better. What can change is how you deal with what you have, find solutions to problems you see now as they are ... improvements, adaptations and behavior modifications. Look forward to a better solution for you with what you have. Looking backwards and worrying about what might have been uses too much energy better spent elsewhere.
My son was valedictorian of his medical school class, chief resident, and now a very top doctor. I see all the time what the "bottom dwellers" do in their practice if they make it that far. Yes, there are exceptions but few and far between. Many are the Doctors who prescribe the "pain medicine" that is responsible for all the misery and ruined lives in every city in America today.
Quote from a John Hopkins study:
Analyzing medical death rate data over an eight-year period, Johns Hopkins patient safety experts have calculated that more than 250,000 deaths per year are due to medical error in the U.S.
Before any surgery, minor or major, check the rating of the hospital you will be having the procedure done in and also vet the doctor very carefully. Almost all have a good bedside manner but...
Pierce
I think we all need a group hug here!!!!!
Agree....... this post is almost off the rails. 8)
It does need to get back on track.
No hugs needed. This is simply a discussion on why certain design decisions were made on our coaches and the consequences of said decision & why hasn't it changed. Vis a Vis isolation of the wet bay & holding tanks.
I own a 21 year old sob. It's a 1998 Country Coach Magna on a Gillig real bus chassis.
The quality of this coach still amazes me and costs next to nothing to own.
I looked at a few FT but either had issues or severely over priced. If I were to get another coach ft would be on my short list.
Sold a lot of country coaches. The other quality coach. We were a dealer
Ca Bob might attest to this. Not often, but more than a few times, a customer would trade in a problem RV, the next owner would have no problems, and love it and vice a versa
Not in all cases discussed here, however expectations do set us up for disappointment. One of my best two weeks in an RV was ten years ago waiting for the correct hydraulic pump part waiting for a part from Europe for my Monaco Signature, finally located with the help of the German pump mfg from a dealer on the other coast of the US. We explored from Orange County to Malibu during that 2 weeks from Dec 15 to Jan 1st. We had an absolute ball. We still talk to others how much fun those two weeks were. (Another story from that same 2 weeks, Monaco shipping me the wrong $2000 part, stalling me out on a refund, and filing for bankruptcy, and so I was OUT. I still would not trade the experience my wife and I had those two weeks, for $2000.) Also 2K was nothing, as CA Bob says spread out over the years and miles we enjoyed in our two Monaco Signatures, or the friendships made. The orig owner of the Monaco owns an aluminium machine shop and made the rain guard for my FT. I appreciate his friendship.
Jack I miss some of my old friends from Oregon. Susan graham, dick Crandall, don fults, don Kelley, dick Martin. I see where Susan is. Any idea of the others?
Bob Rvs, Bob this is a big small industry. Alot of common friends. Tomorrow I'll send a PM and we can talk by phone. Great forum we belong to.
The design flaw from 20 years ago was indeed maybe a bad flaw, But we now have to ask ourselves, Is there a recommend remedy to this flaw that will eliminate this flaw......that does not cost an arm and a leg????
The $64,000 question.
I was thinking about that and thought that "if" one had to remove the wet bay to expose the bulkhead. I wonder if it would be possible that upon reinstalling the holding tanks, pumps and such. Would it be possible to spray it with a layer of bed liner.
There are several posts on replacing the floor and the costs associated. It won't eliminate the design, but will start you where it was new. If you are aware of the problem water can cause and keep watch for any water leaks, you will be fine. If your coach is like mine, 19 yrs. old and no issues, just prevent any water leaks to keep it that way.
Drill drain holes in the bays , drill drain holes just above the tubes in the vertical panels near the ends , blow oil into the bottom tubes, seal the fasteners into the tubes, spray with rustoleum, etc.
Sure. There are thousands of possibilities of what to do with making the tubing rust and corrosion resistant both on the exterior and interior. One of the best would be to get rid of the bottom plastic covering and install a series of 48" vinyl/plastic/aluminum sheets to go across the bottom and each panel to be removable to allow easy access to the tubing. PVC Sheets are standard sizes of millwork. They are typically 3/8, 1/2, 5/8, 3/4, or 1 in. thick and 4 ft. wide. Standard lengths include 8, 10, 12, 18, and 20 ft. In this case, 3/8" might be perfect for the job.
Pierce
Those of us who worked for Foretravel long ago would resent the idea in your title that Foretravel did not care. SOB's I worked with did not care much past the sale to their dealer.
Out of my stores budget that I made 10% of I spent $75k the first 12 months fixing out of warranty customers coaches.
Factory agreed. Turned my store around volume wise and went from 25 new to 59 in two years.
Every single time I,offered an improvement they changed their production.
The Fores were a heavily religious family and they truly believed in their product and to do it as best as they and their staff could produce.
My sediments exactly Bob, as a former Foretravel Employee. Thanks for your comment.
I know they didn't think of it as a design flaw. I believe they thought they were doing everything to keep water out.
One thing I know for sure, Ray Fore got a new coach of any model change, and drove it for a while, before any changes were put into production. If a switch wasn't in a convenient place, or whatever, it was changed.
Chris
Cm ánd Marie also had new coaches. Invariably green. Yuk
I think it's completely absurd to expect these coaches to be rock solid twenty plus years down the road from manufacture. Who could have forseen these problems? What car, house, airplane is without issues at this stage of life? To accuse the manufacturer of cutting corners is a low blow....it's a testament to the manufacturer's integrity and committment to quality that these fine coaches continue to survive even with the relatively minor and solvable problems discussed.
Interesting to see that this thread is still alive. :D
Simply put.
20 days old or 20 years old the water issue was and is the same. If a new 1998 Foretravel upon it's very first trip had a water leak in the wet bay that accidentally went unnoticed. It would have leaked from the wet bay into the belly then into the unprotected bulkhead area. That has been my point. Yet folks here say la de da It's better than an SOB. Then say how dare I say anything negative about Foretravel.
I drive a nice Mercedes. But I have been all over them (via a class action suit) because of the crappy design of the aircon evap coil in the cabin. It's is in a vertical position. So it stays wet and I constantly have a moldy smell. I think that is a faulty design. Should I just write it off because Mercedes is better built than Some Other Brand of car. I think not. plain and simple, It's a crappy design. Yet I still like it.
I know that items can wear out and break. I have never once said that I expected my coach to be perfect.
These were not made in Japan by Lexus. I promised every customer new and used that there were things wrong the day they took it home.
If they did not continue to smile after that statement I have passed the deal several times and referred them to my competitors right next to me in Traveland,. The grief was not worth it for them or me or for the club.
Rving is a dice roll. I offered my opinion that if the customer wanted a perfect hobby that they should take up stamp collecting.
Absolutely true that I told customers all the above.
No major design flaws on our old ls460. Amazing build quality. Same as our sc430.
I have been yelled at across my desk a few times and after a few minutes I said "let me see that smile" almost all broke and smiled finally. Esoecially as I had warned them prior to the sale. In a nice grinning way. Plus I totally fixed their issues and they could and did call me 24/7/365.
Rving is not for everyone
I think that one of the reasons the coaches have held up well for a number of years, is that Foretravel was very liberal in their use of caulking on all of the basement floor penetrations. The metal frame below, while not galvanized or stainless (I wish!), was primed with a red primer. Also, the basement floor is not a porous material so the only way for water to get through is through penetrations, damaged fiberglass, or along the edges if the fiberglass skin is not well adhered to the steel. The caulking generally is effective, but chronic exposure to water combined with vibration and flexing going down the road would eventually cause it to fail. I think the design could have, and should have addressed the water infiltration issue better, though probably not as easy as everyone seems to think. Drain pans under the tanks with sleeved penetrations through the basement floor and some strategically placed duck bills perhaps... Anyway, I think Foretravel got most of the design stuff right. That said, I doubt if there is anybody on this forum who was more negatively impacted by the issue of water infiltration into the basement framing than I was. Still, I love our coach and feel like the design choices Foretravel made that affect way it drives, handles twisty roads, and especially the downhill speed control provided with by the retarder, more than make up for the bulkhead issues and two years it took me to remediate the issue on our coach. Now, I would love to go back in time and be put in charge of certain aspects of production of these coaches... but if that was the case, nobody would have been able afford them and FOT would have likely been put out of business. :o
Somewhere in this thread or the one that spawned it, someone wondered if the insulation was closed or open cell. The rigid styrofoam insulation that FOT used does not absorb or hold water, however, it does melt in the presence of diesel... The plywood used to add hard points for attaching accessories such as reels, water pumps, etc. does hold water and that is what did the steel in under the wet bay in our coach. I guess my point is, the basement framing isn't exactly unprotected, though it could have been done more effectively for the long term.
Don
I am not sure what shop, or when, repaired mine, however, that is exactly what was done to mine. I will try to add a picture. Before buying mine, I knew of the issue, all my bulkheads were tight, below slide outs, slide trays, and underneath were all sprayed with bedliner, going up the walls about 10 inches. It continues to look very clean with it's glossy black, dimpled surface.
I know wel all have our thoughts and issues with our coaches and sometimes they are ecxpensive. I had to have both my slides pulled to fix delamination that is on the 99-01 coaches slides. Design flaw was the wrong mastic being used but I too had 370k mikes and 17 years of fun owning my coaches. Nothing is pert and low volume manufactures have a harder time finding issues but they are usually much better built. I think we have discussed this issue and nothing more can really be added other acrimony towards posts. There are legitimate issues brought up here but the entire industry deals with it. So let's shut this one down and get back to helping each other out.