I have checked the other posts on this subject and had not found what my exact issue is. Warning... I am a newbie and just learning and reading to understand my 1991 Grand Villa caterpillar 3208-t.
I've just purchased and drove my FT home 3 weeks ago. I came from 93 degree 87% humidity to WI where it's been very cold. I have winterized it and tried to run the generator to charge the batteries (yes I had tried to connect to my home but it blows my fuse in the house). The generator started the first week and second but would not start yesterday. I had shut off the propane detector when I shut off the main power switch and remembered that I did that. When I turned it on to try again it is beeping constantly. I do not smell propane inside or out. Any ideas?
Also, I need to move my MH to a storage area and after running my block heater, I could not get the engine started. How long would I need to keep the block heater on for? Be gentle... I'm a 65 year old female with no diesel experience LOL.. Love reading all your posts by the way. :)
Propane detectors DO have a finite life. Quite likely it has ended.
Do you have one or two taps/valves on the propane tank. I ask because some propane generators run on LIQUID propane (a separate tap from the one with the electric shutoff). Others run on VAPOR and do go through the electric shutoff.
You need to find out why plugging in blows your house breaker. Locate the main 120 VAC breaker box. Turn off the large/main breaker. Plug in. If it blows, the problem is in the shore power cord, wiring to ATS (Automatic Transfer Switch) the ATS itself, wiring from ATS to breaker box or breaker box itself.
If house breaker does not blow, turn off all individual breakers and start turning them on one at a time to identify the culprit.
If the house breaker is 15 amp, it may just be that too many things are on in the coach causing the draw to be too high. Be sure the BLOCK HEATER is off-- it takes a lot of power.
For a no start, use the manual primer pump to make sure there is no air in the fuel system. It should be HARD to pump. If easy, there is air in the system. Pump until it becomes hard to pump.
Block heater will help, but should not be necessary unless below freezing. If it is, 2-3 hours should be adequate.
Kathie,
Don't worry about being a newbie - we all were at some point. The learning curve is steep, but gets easier as you go along.
I'm trying to get a picture of your current situation. Your profile shows you live in Madison, WI so I'm going to assume it is pretty cool there, at least at night. You said when you plugged your coach into the house outlet it blows a fuse (circuit breaker?). Do you know what the breaker rating is? 15 amp, 20 amp, 30 amp?
You say you had the generator running a couple times. Do you have a "BOOST" switch on your dash? If yes, when you ran the generator, did you have the BOOST switch on? The generator will only charge the engine start batteries if the BOOST switch is ON.
Now your generator won't start. I assume your generator runs on propane? On your coach, I don't know if the generator starts off the coach batteries, or off the engine start batteries. On my coach, it starts off the coach batteries. Whichever it is on your coach, you need to get them charged up so you can get the generator going again.
After using your block heater, the big engine won't start. The block heater operates on 120V AC, and it won't work unless you are either plugged into shore power, or else running the generator. So were you plugged into your house outlet when you tried to use the block heater? Did it trip the breaker?
It sounds like you definitely need to get both sets of coach batteries charged up, before you can do much else. At this point, the easiest way to do that would probably be to use a good heavy duty external battery charger plugged into a household outlet. Do you have a battery charger, or can you borrow one from somebody? Until you get the batteries fully charged, not much on the coach is going to operate correctly.
As for the propane detector going off, I would shut off the main valve on the propane tank just to be safe. It is possible that the detector is alarming due to low chassis battery voltage, or the detector may just be defective, but you don't want to take any chances with a propane leak. Once again, after you get both battery sets up to full charge, then you can try the detector again and see what it does. If it doesn't alarm, then you can turn the propane back on to start the generator.
I know you have a lot of questions, and we will help as best we can. Other members will chime in with more suggestions, I am sure.
You may have some water in your fuel line that is frozen, that is preventing from starting. I had to start my 3208 up in an emergency at 15 f. Without the block heater took 3 five second churns on the starter before fired up. Block heater uses a boatload of power and will not work on a 120 volt extension cord. I went to test my block heater a couple of weeks ago, while on 50 amp shore power, it ran about 15 minutes before it smoked the old 20 amp breaker. Generator is normally not connected to the line that has the propane sniffer. At low temps getting the generator running first is helpful.
Another thought, if you fueled up in a warm climate it was probably #2 diesel. once you get to a cold climate you need #1 diesel and or fuel additives to keep it from gelling up.
Perhaps you have a glow plug set up on your engine, have a look on the bottom left side of the dashboard. If it's there it will be marked cold start aid or some such, with the ignition on push in the button for 20 seconds and then try the starter for 10 seconds. That would be after checking the manual fuel pump/primer.
Hope that helps.
I have experienced extended crank times to start a cat engine in cold weather. Up to 60 seconds. Slowly starts. Cloud of white smoke.
The number 2 fuel turns to jelly in cold weather. Starves out the fuel filter where the pressure handle is.
Need to remove the fuel filter and fill it with a quart or more diesel fuel.
Your coach may require an experienced mechanic to get it going and may require the not easy task of draining the fuel tank and replacing the fuel.
May require having the coach flat bedded to an indoor warm shop.
Your gen has a liquid propane regulator on the tank. I have had an ice ball form in the regulator in severe winter weather before.
Batteries lose power in winter. Unknown condition?
Your coach has ether start. A single push of that dash button can deliver a measured shot into the intake and allow starting.
Winterizing the coach is one part. The engine and gen can require thinner oil for severe weather to turn over.
Plus the winter fuel. May need to run out the tank fuel. Should have been done before winter use.
The winter fuel is part kerosene.
I have added alcohol like "heet" to the propane fill hose then fill the propane tank to allow any water vapor in the propane to mix and be used up.
The fuel line is exposed under the coach and so below freezing weather can cause fuel jelling.
A warm building may be needed to fix this. Then run the motor at high idle or drive it long enough to run the fuel out enough to add the number one fuel to dilute the number 2.
Winter use requires special prep as you see.
Lighter gen oil so it turns over faster. No water in propane. Lighter diesel fuel.
The block heater can be plugged in through an extension cord into the engine compartment if the coaches systems are overloading the breakers. Plugs into an electrical outlet in the bay.
Left on overnight the dash temp gauge can show 120 degrees or so when the ignition is turned on but not try to start it.
That means the heater works.
Subject to fuel not being jelled out.
Everything relates. A diesel coach requires special prep and setup to work..
Batteries can need heater plates mounted on them to warm them up to produce enough power to turn things over.
Plus almost new batteries. Or remove the batteries and put them in a warm area with a small charger on them..
None of this is easy.
Is the gen turning over too slow? How about the engine? How cold is it now?
The block heater if memory serves me is 1500 watts, lots of amps.
I use a 10 gauge extension cord to lessen voltage drops for long runs.
Ridgid. $130 cord. Plus a 12 gauge one also. $80? Flexible in cold weather
Good morning... Thank you all- I will have to run off to work very quickly so I will add more to this post when I get home:
30 amp on the home
one specific breaker in the home/ (can try another room but this extends the extension length)
Where is the manual primer pump?
Boost button on dash YES :)
The block heater was not used when I tried to plug in and had everything off on the coach (cutoff turned off)
I did buy a charger Schumacher auto/marine rapid charge and was going to charge the starter battery (I have two in the steps one house the other starter correct?)
Main valve of propane I did make sure after the beeping was shut off
and I do have another valve on the propane tank.
I did my last fuel up in Illinois.
Not sure of a glow plug but I know I have a ether switch (which everything I've read is threatening but being so cold...??)
will check for the glow/plug/ cold aid
I will definitely get my GV towed to a shop if all of these things do not work. Just wanted to get it to the storage facility.
Temps here are from 25 to 35 with 8 mph winds and in the foreseeable future
I thought about batteries being pulled out for charging but the house battery is way too heavy for me.
The generator actually started pretty fast when it would start.
I will start with charging the starter battery because the gen may start when both batteries are at full charge.
Off to work but so thankful for all of you. Yes I am at kindergarten level but I am a fast learner.
I know we're throwing a lot of info at you, but as you can see there are many factors involved in proper cold weather operation.
You seem leery of using the ether switch, and that is a excellent way of thinking. Ether can be helpful in certain cold start situations, but it requires extreme caution in using. You want the rest of the engine starting requirements to be optimized before you start injecting ether. This means starting battery fully charged, and correct (liquid) diesel fuel available at the engine injection pump. On your coach, if both batteries are fully charged, using the BOOST switch could double your available starting amperage, which would be very helpful when starting in difficult conditions!
There's a very good chance your ether system won't even function, especially if the coach has recently resided in a warmer climate. My coach, for instance, had the original ether system in place when we bought it. I think the can of ether was probably the one installed at the factory in 1993. It was rusty and weather beaten, and when I removed it I found it only had a few drops of liquid inside, and near zero pressure. I did away with the whole ether assembly, because I would have never, ever, used it. Personal choice.
See the thread linked below for one of the many Forum "Ether" discussions. Also a photo of a typical ether canister - should be visible when you peer into your engine compartment while standing behind the coach.
Ether system (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=33118.0)
(back from deer hunting today)
If the propane "sniffer" was beeping the valve on the propane supply line probably activated and shut off the propane supply. Maybe have to disconnect wire to the valve and take the spring out so propane can flow to the generator.
My files show our propane/carbon monoxide alarm has been replaced three times. It's being replaced again today because it's beyond it's lifetime, which is five years. No matter what the other issues are, replace the 'sniffer'. ^.^d
Southwire Extension Cord 100 ft. 12/3 SJTW Outdoor Lighted Heavy Duty Yellow... (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Southwire-Extension-Cord-100-ft-12-3-SJTW-Outdoor-Lighted-Heavy-Duty-Yellow/253897292388?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649)
Really nice 12/3 power cord for fair price . 15 amp real . I use this to plug in and it runs 1 AC no problem and should run your block heater by it self. My block heater has it's own short cord.
My 88 genset runs on a separate propane feed from the interior items.
Using synthetic oils in both the engine and gen will aid the cold start tremendously. Ask anyone from Alaska.
I have a small chrome button next to the park brake marked "cold start".
One of my detectors beeped when my batteries were low. I am not sure which one (CO or Propane).
This was back when the coach was in storage and before I added solar.
Before I even knew we had a block heater, I did fire the coach in Flagstaff with temps in the lower twenties. Used no boost. Yes, she smoked white for 30 seconds or so, but, no problem. Yes, the starter batteries were fresh. ^.^d
Engine should turn over fairly quickly at 20's to 30's. May take up to 60 seconds crank time to build heat in cylinders and start. Lots of white smoke. Normal. Kills bugs in a wide area. I have had many times to run the starter 30 or more seconds skiing to get these to finally start. It's just cold. Block heater will make it start much quicker during turnover.
Unless fuel jelled out? Starter was made to run that long.
Lots of mention of fuel gelling. I really doubt it unless temperatures are WELL below freezing.
Gel point - Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gel_point_)(petroleum)
Gel point is the temperature at which diesel or biodiesel fuel freezes solid and can no longer flow by gravity or be pumped through fuel lines. This phenomenon happens when a fuel reaches a low enough temperature whereby enough wax crystals have formed to prevent any movement in the oil. For #2 diesel this is usually around 17.5 °F (−8.1 °C).
For the fuel to become pumpable again, it needs to be brought above the gel point temperature to the Ungel point, which is typically near its pour point. However, most of the waxes will still remain in solid form and the fuel has to be warmed up further until its Remix temperature in order to completely remelt and redissolve the waxes.
Anti-gel additives are therefore commonly added to diesel or biodiesels where cold temperature is expected. They act to reduce the formation of wax crystals in the fuel, thereby lowering the pour point and the gel point of the fuel. Anti-gel additives may not necessarily affect the cloud point.
Getting ready to leave work here in about 20 minutes. Quick question, What is the additive's name? I can pick some up on the way home at Farm n Fleet or O'reilys up the road from me. I do want to charge the starter battery before I try to start the engine then after that start up the propane detector to see if it was a low battery warning signal. Baby steps ... start at the simple things.
For fuel gelling, PS brand anti-gel at any Walmart.
POWER SERVICE PRODUCTS 1025 Diesel Fuel Supplement,Amber,32 oz. G5573246 -... (http://www.walmart.com/ip/POWER-SERVICE-PRODUCTS-1025-Diesel-Fuel-Supplement-Amber-32-oz-G5573246/16644698)
Again, unless well below freezing, a good idea, but likely NOT the cause of the no start.
I have a heavy duty extension chord but its blue. I used it last year for Christmas decorations in the yard. it is a 50 ft also so that is the one I will use after I charge the batteries to make sure that takes care of the "sniffer" hopefully and get the generator started. Then I will turn off the breaker on the one that tripped the last time to see if I can get it plugged in the house otherwise try a different room to plug into. My kitchen /garage has always had issues with the breaker tripping.
First things first... get the battery charged fully (the starter in the stair next to the house battery) Now another question, I've read that you need to take the connections off (they are connected to the house battery) then connect the charger. I then saw another person put the charger on the connectors... well removing the connectors seems to be the safest way correct? Thanks again for everyone's help. I will update everyone when I'm done with the charging and see if the constant beeping goes away. It is turned off for now. thanks for the links too...
Kathie,
This leads me to think that you are plugging into a standard house socket (15/20 amp) as most houses don't have 30 amp plugs in multiple rooms. If this is the case you may just be overloading the circuit with other things on that breaker that are in your house. This type plug will work for minimum stuff if nothing else is on that circuit. It will not run fridge, inverter/converter and engine pre heat all at once though. (think just minimum) The more you can tell us about your troubles the better. Most likely your troubles are something simple as you have just drove a good distance and had no big problems.
I hate to call out some repair shops but you are better off tinkering on your coach yourself than to pay someone $120 or more an hour to learn on your coach as these are quite unique. There are members here that most likely have been down the same road as you and are willing to help out.
Mike
Kathie,
No, it's not necessary to remove the battery connectors before attaching charger clips. At a later time it would be good to remove each connector(negative first) and clean both male and female parts until the surfaces are shiny, then reattaching(positive first).
I did not have issues until I parked my MH in my driveway. I had picked up the MH in 93 degree weather but did drive to 25 to 30 degrees. I had fueled up in Illinois around 40 degrees. I did get the engine to start a week later and moved it to another spot and unfortunately did not take it for a drive for a workout but did run the engine for 20 minutes along with the generator. Last Sunday I started up the generator and ran it for 2 hrs. I then shut down the main power and the only thing new that I did was flip the propane detector switch off thinking that I did not want any extra use of the battery power. When I went to start up the generator a few days later, that is when I turned on the main power switch, flipped the propane detector and it started to beep one after the other (constant over and over). I had then tried to see if the engine would start up and could not get the engine to turn over. I will certainly do a charge today since I am off work and basting the Turkey :) Need to start the trouble shooting that everyone suggested (charging first since that may be the over all issue).. yes I do have a huge learning curve and believe it or not... might be a blessing that I'm having issues now instead of on the road. Have a great Thanksgiving and Thank you very much
Second best place to have breakdown. (Best is in qualified service center parking lot) What part of the country are you in? There maybe a nearby member that could help you out locally. I have done that for two folks up here near Seattle, most here are glad to help someone up the learning curve.
According to her profile page, Kathie is in Madison, WI.
Our member map shows two nearby members. One is "retired" (sold their coach in 2016). The other is out of town for Turkey Day.
I wouldn't want to "volunteer" another member's services, but perhaps one of them will see this thread and offer some assistance.
Nitehawk is about 1.5 away from me and has had a lot of information that was helpful for winterizing. I will see if the batteries being charged I will be able to get things going.... I have faith that the batteries were the main issue. (we can only hope right). I will know more after 4 pm today
Kathie the problem blowing the fuse into your house is the cord from RV to your house is too long or undersize. Posibly after gen starts charging, house charge will take less amps and work.
Another thing to try is make sure all other 110v is off, water heater, micro, refrig, lights and then try RV charger.
If above will not work, try to borrow or buy at Wallmart an approx 10 amp smart charger, this will draw less amps than your RV charger. Also make sure nothing else is running on your in house 110 circuit, lights, etc.
By the way, Kathy is about 140-170 miles away from me.
Success... I've got the generator started right away after disconnecting the battery charger. Can't turn on the propane alarm... it still beeps but I checked the tank and sniffed the area myself and do not smell any leaks. I made sure I turned on the boost since someone mentioned that is how you charge the house battery? I do know now that the generator does use the starter battery since it was charged 100%. Still not getting the gauge by the door to pop up in the green (I am assuming that the house battery needs to be charged). Will run the generator for about 2 hrs and check again (in 30 mins) then check again. Thanks again ... baby steps.
Oh I have appreciated all the help over email... no problem. Nothing anyone can do differently. Once I attempt and get it done the only way I can do it in the future... Thanks for everything. I hope you had a great Thanksgiving
From the factory:
Alternator on the engine (Caterpillar) charges both House and Chassis batteries.
Battery charger charges ONLY house bank.
No idea if yours has been modified from that arrangement.
Boost switch, in effect, makes the two banks into ONE, so the easy way to charge CHASSIS BATTERIES, as, with the generator or shore power, the built-in charger charges the house batteries.
The "powerwatch" gauge inside the door, is not popping up to the green area. I've tried to attach the photo through "dropbox" but hasn't attached (just to show you what I'm talking about). I have the Boost on/Generator and it's been about 2 hrs now Turned my monitor on and it shows only 12.5 flickering up and down from this. I have a little over 1/2 propane tank so no danger of running out. How long would you say I should run it?
Are you sure the Powerwatch is a 12 VDC/battery monitor not a 120 VAC monitor?
Call if you want to talk through this-- PM'ed my number.
Photo below of the PowerWatch panel. It only indicates the presence of 120V AC power, like when you are plugged in to shore power, or when you run your generator. You may have another panel in your coach that indicates 12V DC power status - I don't know about that.
Kathy, the Powerwatch on our 1989 coach is for monitoring the 120V and pos/neg polarity hookup of the 120V connection. You should get a green light if hooked up to 120V correctly, altho your bulbs may be burned out like ours were. I replaced both bulbs and now things light up as per designed.
Yup, Chuck is more right than me..I forgot the gen is also monitored here.
You don't need to worry about running your generator. It is actually good to exercise it. The generators in Foretravel coaches are designed to run for many hours - even for days at a time, without any problem. Just need to check the oil level (with engine OFF) once in a while.
The "monitor" you turned on is, I assume, the little CRT screen in the dash. The voltage it displays should be from the "coach" (house) battery, if it is wired the same as ours. At 12.5 volts, your coach battery still needs more time on the charger, so I would let the generator run at least until you quit for the day, or until you get the big engine started (if you are going to attempt that today).
When
both batteries are fully charged (boost switch ON), with the generator running, you should see
over 13 volts displayed on the CRT screen.
Yes the one on the right... When I started my generator the last time, the dial popped up to the right into the green, now after running about 3 hrs (generator) the hand/arrow is not moving. it is the 120V ac power. I did try to start the engine and I don't get any clicking or any sound at all but the gauges on the dash do move... could it be the ignition switch? Maybe reading too much but ran across this article: Replacing Foretravel Ignition Switch (http://beamalarm.com/Documents/replacing_foretravel_ignition_switch.html). I'm going to run out to see if anything as changed but it's been about 5 degrees warmer outside so I don't think it's the cold weather and without any cranking/clicking when turning the key... hmmmm...
I will certainly do that...
A number of possibilities: but YES, the 'Powerwatch' is only power from shore/gen-set. We have a dash battery gauge, but the PO installed a unit I like much better, it's called 'Truecharge' Xantrex | Power Inverter, Inverter Charger, Battery Charger Manufacturer (http://www.xantrex.com) We also have one of these after almost frying the coach with a bad RV park pedestal: Rv Surge Protection | United States | Progressive Industries, Inc. (http://www.progressiveindustries.net) Good luck, let us know what you find! ^.^d
Kathie,
Best bet is to give Brett a call. Your "no-start" situation can get a little involved, so direct conversation with a pro would be worthwhile.
No cranking or clicking, been there done that, while working on coach I accidentally bumped the gear shift lever, it has to be in nuetral before it will click or crank.
Yes I've done that myself parked at Walmart on the way home. Will check again after my 2nd battery completely charges. Like Brett stated, can't troubleshoot without a fully charged battery bank. I did have the "start" battery fully charged but today I'm charging the house battery. It's at 80% right now and will check the other one right before I start again. It seems that the power relay (under the bed above the engine) is not allowing the generator to relay power to the 110... and not charging the batteries. I ran through all the breakers with Brett but useless to speculate if I don't have both batteries charged up. Spending my day reading and reviewing the wiring diagrams and running errands to pick up tools/things needed. Thanks everyone ... will see what's what when all is charged.
Kathie, when the gen set is on. do you show anything on the PowerWatch? You should see 120v with no draw. Also, this is what you should be seeing on the dash with either the gen or shore power after the batteries have gotten down there and are charging.
Gonna be ugly Mike...better dump soon !
Ha! It's not the crap, but the crappy sensors. I don't even look at those monitors anymore. In fact, I don't look at my back up camera either. Never had one before: DW is my guide! ^.^d
Spent some time yesterday afternoon on the phone with Kathie. She is going to fully charge both battery banks before trying to troubleshoot the no-start condition. And also buy an inexpensive digital voltmeter.
But, to troubleshoot the 120 VAC, starting at the ATS (Automatic Transfer Switch), I suggested someone safe working around 120 VAC.
Well I got the engine to start with one turn. Yes i got the huge house battery fully charged along with the start battery. I did check that it was fully in Neutral even though I did before but better to try again. It was in neutral but I did push the button in and out (perhaps that little jolt did it?) :) but happy here that the engine started I did run it for about 30 minutes. Sorry didn't check the readout (should have) but did start the generator again and the powerwatch still will not kick up to where it should be. So the ATS will need a good look at. I used to hear that little "kick" sound before like Brett mentioned to me but do not now. For now... I am happy to get the engine going so I can get it moved to my storage spot. The problem is going to be charging my batteries while it's stored. We will be getting snow and ice soon so exercising the engine/ driving it around will become a problem... snow and ice does not mix with the Foretravel. If it is just cold I will get it out and about for sure... All of you are great and a big thanks to Brett. I have learned so much and I know it is only a little speck of what I will need. I'm at least moving again :D
You're already kind of amazing. That's a unique coach and has a lot of enjoyment left in it. So proud of you (and Brett) for getting it going.
Good job Kathie. My Powerwatch never went to 120v either, although I have 120v to all plugs. I tried to adjust and it would not. I finally removed it.
As we discussed, have someone familiar with RV electricals check your generator/ATS/converter. You will need to either remove the batteries and keep them at home to charge or be able to run the generator (with everything working properly) to keep them charged.
Be sure to at the anti-gel before driving so it will mix. And importantly for storage, get a BIOCIDE such as Biobor JF and add that to the fuel tank and then fill the tank with diesel before storing. This will minimize condensation and prevent algae growth.