I find it odd my batteries are so depleted after three weeks of sitting— Engine bank down to 0.8v; house <10v.
It is cold: 20F. I am inside, so no solar charging at all.
These batteries should have been disconnected, but I have been staying ready to depart for Airizona and had no idea they would deplete so fast. All batteries—six house 6v and two 12v Interstate truck—are new. "Salesman" switch off during the period.
No secret here, the current is going some place. You just need to start at the batteries and look for a drain some where. With every thing turned off, loosen the grnd term of the battery bank and spark check it (tap it against the battery term and see if it sparks). If so, keep on going and check other places. Charge the batteries first of course. ---- Happy hunting and have a great day ---- Fritz
How about the switch near the engine batteries?
You'll need to replace the eng. batts. I have two almost new Group 31 engine batteries for sale for cheap. 1100CCA each. Where are you?
Batteries can be permanently damaged from that kind of discharge.
There is 2 different stereo memories (if you have one in the bedroom)., and also the LP detector.The trans has a computer that draws. In this cold weather, and with a constant draw makes sense
Chris
Different battery types self discharge at different rates, Least self discharge as far as I studied is the oem mk gels and the redtop AGM engine batteries.
I ruined a set of new/good batteries in the same three week time frame.
The 6v house batteries if flooded cell or lifeline agm's may be restoreable. Non lifeline agm's and VRLA flooded cell batteries may not come back.
You can charge them up but a good percentage of their capacity is probably gone.
I replaced all of ours again and installed a combiner and a necessary amount of solar.
Ugly. If you travel power pedestal to power pedestal and/or run the gen always the lower capacity may not be a problem
This unfortunate episode points out the hazards of leaving a coach unattended, and without any source of shore power, in cold weather. Given the "right" set of circumstances, it doesn't take very long to ruin a set of batteries. If you can't park your coach where shore power is available, then it behooves you to find SOME strategy that will protect the batteries from damage. We have discussed several solutions on this Forum, including totally disconnecting the batteries to reduce phantom drain, auto-start generators, and solar panel charging systems. If none of these work for you, then you must find a way to at least monitor the battery bank state-of-charge. Stopping by the coach regularly is the simple solution, but not always possible. I believe Roger once spoke about a system that would allow remote monitoring of several different parameters at the coach via wireless technology. Can't find the post right now, but I'll keep looking.
The big coach batteries are too expensive, and too much work to replace, to let them be ruined by lack of care. Do SOMETHING to protect your batteries when the coach is in winter storage!
Chuck, it was one of these...
Amazon.com : 3G AC/DC Power Monitoring SMS Alarm Panel Power Lose/Failure... (https://amazon.com/gp/product/B07CF72146/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Nice idea, I got one to see how it works. You need a SIM card and an account plan somewhere for it to work. I got a US Mobile SIM card (free) and a 40 text message a month plan ($3) PAYG but never got it to work. Instructions were terrible, web site for help was not in english. Amazon tech support tried but couldn't figure it out either. Sent it back for a full refund, paid the $3 to US Mobile.
Maybe it was US Mobile ... I don't know. I wish it would have been simple but it was not.
There must be something else out there for temp, water on the floor, power out that doesn't use a lot of power or need a land line or continuous internet access. I keep looking.
Roger
Thanks to all. I now understand better how such depletion can occur when stored indoors with no solar.
I am going to charge the engine batteries, and then remove the coach from the parking garage and, hopefully charge the house batteries, as I figure out how to keep them charged before I leave. I am hopefull that with the engine batteries not completely discharged, and the hpuse batteries being new and also 6v golf cart batteries that frequently are discharged, I might save them but we shall see.
Thanks again for all of your very informative responses.
Your coach is stored inside with no power available?
Any number of things could be draining your batteries. You need to charge them and either keep your coach plugged in with some kind of charging system or disconnect the batteries until you are ready to go.
Obviously, if any of them won't hold a charge you need to replace them. If they are new I presume they have a warranty. It's always better to do that where you bought them than to wait until you are 1,000 miles away.
No power in the garage Randall?
Yes, 110 15a in garage.
Randall,
15 amp 120 VAC is enough to keep the batteries charged-- just make sure all other 120 VAC loads are OFF, and if a high-amp charger, likely need to use a power share/power save option.
Tell us what converter or inverter/charger you have. Remote panel?
What means do you have to charge the chassis batteries (OE from factory, there is no means of charging them from shore power or generator-- only alternator)?
Brett,
My charger is a Powersource model 75.
As to charging chassis batteries, I had no means or thought to do so externally, but now contemplating a Deltran Battery tender as easiest way to plug into storage unit 110v 15a power. Is this safe to leave unattended? I would use that to charge engine batteries, then run gen and or coach outside to recharge house batts, then disconnect for further storage.
As long at the house bank is charged, the 15 amp shore power is plenty adequate to keep them charged AND have enough 120 VAC left over to run a smart trickle charger for the chassis batteries.
Only issue is whether the old 75 amp converter is smart enough to not OVER-charge the batteries. Check voltage after 24 hours. You want it around 13.2. If much higher, it will over charge the batteries. Easy solution-- buy a HD/20 amp 120 VAC timer from any box store and plug the converter into it. Set it to run an hour a day.
Thanks Brett, will monitor and do that.
I think I still have a little confusion, in re chassis vs. house charging. If I now put the battery tender on a chassis battery, will that send charging power to house batteries? I initially only want to charge the chassis so I can start the engine, then charge house batteries. I'm trying to bootstrap my way padt this and then set up to prevent any further problem while still in storage.
p.s. Actually discovered a timer on the 115vac outlet.
PLEASE be extremely careful, arcing a recently charged battery can cause the battery to explode, it is full of hydrogen gas !!! ASK me how I know, I arced the battery posts on my Dads , recently restored, 1926 Model T... I was extremely fortunate, the bottom blew out of the battery, not the top ... secondly that my Dad didn't skin me for blowing up the battery .... Please use a volt meter to test batteries......
MY THOUGHTS,
Safe travels
Dave
I do worry about that, and always disconnect charger from power source before catefully disconnecting.
As far as charging, the two banks are totally independent (at least from the factory).
For storage each needs its own charging source. Another option to a "stupid" 75 amp converter (that was state of the art in 1989) is to use a second smart charger and turn off the breaker to the 75 amp converter.
Be aware that no small amp smart charger will CHARGE the batteries-- they will, however do a fine job of maintaining them once they are charged.
Thanks Brett. In that case, I may need to remove the chassis batts and charge them with the big charger tonight.
Remove to charge or just plug in a stand alone charger where you are in the storage area.
Thanks. I purchased a larger higher-output charger for this, and will hook it up now to charge the engine baterries. This unit also has a starting booster, but don't know if I should use it; attempting charging first.
If possible, let it charge overnight (assuming it is a smart charger and will taper off charge voltage after fully charging).
Easier on the batteries, easier on the charger and easier on the starter.
Randall
You can charge the engine batts with a smaller battery charger. Just separate them, and bring them up slowly separately.
Next time you have it over at my shop, we will install a manual battery disconnect for the engine batts, and go over your charging system with you. A physical picture is worth a thousand words.I know it's gets confusing. Just add it to the list.
The house timer on the converter where it plugs in, is a great idea, many older Foretravel had them installed.
We can also install a deal to maintain the engine batts from the house charger
LSL Products TRIK-L-START 5 Amp Starting Battery Charger (https://www.rvupgradestore.com/Ultra-Trik-L-Start-p/trik-l-start.htm?Click=57610)
Several other brands to choose from
Chris
Chris, thanks.
Will do, and get the installation worked over during warmer weather. I ran into an impediment today; didn't have enough extension cord to reach the batteries, so will go out tomorrow morning and hook up the charger to the engine side. I'm assuming by "separate" you mean disconnect che chassis battery bank from the cross-tie to the house bank?
Brett,
Once I succeed in getting te charger hooked up, I will charge at a low rate. It is a smart charger.
Thanks.
And here's another wrinkle in my battery power restoration plan: Due to the narrow width of my storage unit, I cannot raise basement hatches and therefore cannot remove batteries.
Is there any harm in leaving batteries in place, and connecting the charger to one battery? The batteries are connected to each other, or could be disconnected from each other, if necessary.
No problem leaving them in place. Best to put the positive and ground connections on the same ones going to the coach (positive to positive to coach/ negative to ground to coach).
Chassis batteries removed now and brought in for charging. Charging @ 1.25a, initially went from 40% to 60% after one hour, and now are at steady 50% after eight hours. My assumption is that the charge will gradually increase now up until circa 24 hours, to full capacity. Am I right in this assumption?
I doubt that they will come back. Dead is dead. Unless they are flooded cell and can be equalized or lifeline agm's for the same reason.
You would have a higher chance of success by charging at a higher rate. And, if wet cells, to equalize which drives them to even higher voltage.
Isn't 1.25 amps basically just a trickle charge?
I think they need 15 to 20 amps.
What is each battery's voltage?
OK, I will increase the charge rate. I understood tge earlier posts to suggest charging at the lowest rate.
Thanks!
No, the mention of lowering charge rate is for a LARGE converter or inverter/charger so you don't exceed 15 amps of 120 VAC (your shore power outlet rating).
Got it Brett, thanks.
I have discovered that the only charger I have at this location is fixed-rate @ 1.25A. I'll go and see if any of my other charges allow adjusting the charge rate. Failing that, off to Interstate Battery and have them check and/or replace if defective.
Be aware that batteries can not be tested in deeply discharged. You will need to charge them up to get accurate readings.
What is the status of your on-board 75 amp converter-- that should be able to get the house bank up and once up, with boost switch on the chassis batteries as well?
That's a good question, whether they will be sufficient for start. OR plug in, BUT I have only 15A wall socket service in storage.
One thing I don't understand about these batteries is that they showed 40 when removed. However from your message, I'm thinking that the pre-charge reading was inaccurate.
15 amp of 120 VAC will easily power your 75 amp converter.
Basic equation is amount of energy in WATTS less, say 10% for inefficiency in converter:
15 amps X 120 volts= 1,800 watts of available power from shore power outlet
Your charger: 75 amps X 13.5 volts= 1,013 watts plus 10% inefficiency= 1,114 watts needed to power converter at max charge rate.
As you can see, that 15 amp outlet will well more than power your 75 amp converter.
Not sure what "showed 40" means.
Connected it may have shown lower voltage than the resting 4.0?
The in coach charger may not come on if the house batteries are too low.
You may have to jump charge them for a while to get them up enough for the built in charger to accept the load. More than 10 volts
I store my coach plugged into a regular 110v socket. I have a battery minder for the engine batteries mounted in the engine compartment. When I plug my coach in all the batteries are maintained. I like to keep things simple and this works for me.
Thanks. I will plug into 15 amp power.
As to "showed 40" I meant that the digital charger indicated that the battery was at 40 percent at the point where I began charging. I do not know if that is an accurate reading given the discharged state of the battery.
Jeff, from here on, I'm keeping the battery tender on the engine batteries; I should have known to do that when initially entering storage...
I retrieved the 15a charger and put that on— will see if that results in a better charge. If not, they're off to Interstate Battery depot in the morning.
One thing not mentioned here is, it's a 15 amp wall plug, but it is a GFI.
Throws another gremlin into the mix. Sensitive little buggers
Chris
Agree with Chris. But, the good news is that you will absolutely KNOW if there is/is not a problem. GFI trips= zero power.
I will ask AGAIN, is there a problem with your built-in 75 amp converter????? It will do a very good job overnight of fully charging the house battery bank and with the boost switch on of charging both battery banks.
(Note: the "Quote" function is not working through my browser)
The 75 amp converter is working fine. Had I known to do so, I would have plugged into the 15a wall power and done just as you suggest, but instead, removed the engine batteries and brought them in for charging. If the current charging effort is successful, I will re-install the engine batteries tomorrow, and also plug into the 15a AC. Will also henceforth leave 1.25a battery tender plugged in and connected to engine batteries.
The 15a charger whirred away all afternoon, gradually reducing charge, until it went to Float, so I am assuming—and hopeful— that the batt got a full and complete charge. I've switched the fast charger over to the other battery, and will await results, but planning to reinstall tomorrow.
Good luck, and good luck finding out what drained them in the 1st place.
If leaving coach for a while, why not put a high-amp disconnect switch on battery. After putting switches on both banks of our coach, and several months of sitting both banks are still 12.6 volts.
I agree with Barry. Years, and many boats and rvs, none without a disconnect. Never understood rvs without. Among first items purchased for FT, two disconnects. Always felt it important to be able to start engine without a jump. Also replaced every two years. Seemed like cheap insurance to not miss the start of a race, (raced sailboats, not rvs).
This makes sense for several reasons. Can you provide us with a link to the switches you used?
These are the two I used, with pictures at the end.
Battery Charge while in storage (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=35271.msg329049#msg329049)
The disconnect switch is definitely on the spring "to do" list.
I'd like to thank again all of the members here who responded to my neophyte battery and electrical system questions.
Having failed to get one of my new batteries to take a charge, I took them this morning to the Interstate Battery shop and the tech there conducted checks—one battery was defective internally, and this was probably the reason for the entire incident. Interstate replaced the batteries under warranty.
We'll get you fixed up in the spring.
Chris
I'm pleased to say that the replacement chassis batteries are installed, engine and genset started and run for about an hour today.
Are you plugged in? :+)
Oh yes, plugged into 15a socket with no other electrical on except charging converter.
Randall, don't forget your house batteries. I Plug the coach's power cable into 110v while in storage. This keeps the house batteries charged. I have a battery minder plugged into an 110v outlet Under the bed and that is hard wired to my engine batteries and keeps those charged.
Hope this helps.
Thanks Jeff—similarly, I have the coach plugged into 110vac for the house charger, and the Deltran battery tender hooked up to the engine batteries.
Sure easier to replace the isolator with the now industry wide standard combiner.
If either battery is receiving a charge the combiner connects them.
Just saying.
Can be manually turned off if you had a bank way down on charge to allow it to catch up.
Just be aware that the combiner is great for battery banks of similar chemistry and similar voltages but a standard combiner would not work for tying a lithium bank (13.6v) to a wet flooded acid bank (12.6v), for instance. It would see the voltage difference as a reason to constantly tie the 2 banks together. I was glad to still have the OEM style isolator that made the lithium conversion easy.
Keeping both my battery banks receiving a charge automatically during long term storage seems to have worked well with the combiner.
Heavily researched li-ion 6 years ago but the temp restrictions without damage were a problem in my mind.
Would not a li-ion battery normally have a built in BMS that would prevent overcharging? My small solar puts out 13.6 volts at the batteries.
Optima red tops and my mk gels seem to be ok receiving that voltage always.
Same as my adjusted alternator outputs.
Only temp controlled charging I have is the inverter/charger.
The test would seem to be if the gen was running or I am plugged into a power pedestal does the charger add more amp hours showing a plus on the power pro meter?
If not then the setup would seem to be optimal at 13.6 volts from,both the solar and alternator would it not?
I hope my continuous charging from the solar/combiner will keep the batteries up and not cycle them very much to increase their life and capacity.
I know for sure running any battery down regularly shortens their life and reduces their capacity.
A resting fully charged battery is 12.85 volts as far as I know. At 12.6 the battery is 30%? Discharged.
So I keep,my batteries at float from the solar and combine them to lower the isolator losses.
The AGM engine and gel house banks both seem to be able to use the 13.6 volt storage volts ok.
My guru buddy says I should be fine. ,
Time will tell.
This whole topic has been discussed a million times on here. All kinds of interesting data and theories.
Not going to argue any of them, just going to throw out my own humble opinion from what I have seen in the streets, hands on as a RV tech for over 50 years, and a RVer myself for almost as long. New and old equipment, every kind of charging system.
I would never leave a coach plugged in 24/7 with any kind of inverter/charger long term, no mater how technically advanced it is.
Charge the batteries to full, physically disconnect them. Physically check them periodically. If leaving your coach plugged in 24/7 works for you, by all means do it.
In our coral of collector cars, race cars, Harley's,race car trailer, lawn mowers and pit bikes etc. we have a total of 25 batteries. Every year I charge them fully, disconnect them physically, and leave them in place for 3 months as we go south. The only exception to this is our 15' Dart. I leave a tender on it, because of all the memories, and I don't want to unhook the batteries. Never have any issues with dead batteries, they all start the vehicles right up in the spring.
Second, I would never tie two different battery banks together via a coach inverter/charger for any period of time over 24 hours.
The engine batteries are going to get overcharged,period by this method. I have heard all the arguments. Regardless you still have a in-balanced battery bank. Therefore the engine batteries are going to be overcharged,because as they are satisfied, while the house batteries are not.
In simple words: Engine batteries " I am done". House batteries " Give me more".
Chris
Would not a li-ion battery normally have a built in BMS that would prevent overcharging? My small solar puts out 13.6 volts at the batteries.
Yes, the BMS will prevent overcharging. That's not the point. My point was simply that the combiner will see the voltage difference between the 2 banks as a trigger to connect them....all the time. That will drain the higher voltage bank to the lower voltage bank. That was my understanding anyway, after consulting Battle Born about it. Might have misunderstood though.
A resting fully charged battery is 12.85 volts as far as I know. At 12.6 the battery is 30%? Discharged.
Close enough. It was just an example to make the point. The lithiums are probably higher voltage than I quoted as well.
I'm not knocking combiners or anything else, just pointing out that they aren't the standard solution for every situation.
We full time, plugged into the pier. Sure do love this unit! Has a in-coach option, I know what's going on ALL THE TIME with both banks!
I questioned my guru buddy extensively about the red top/gel combo. While no non identical system is perfect in actual long term use his results have been excellent.
Not sure when Foretravel changed their production but every newer Foretravel built coach has a similar system to mine.
Redtops/gels/combiner/solar?
340 amp alternator into 6 mk gels and 250/300? amp battery charging from dual inverter/chargers.
Works for the nice million dollar folks should work for me.
Mine auto disconnects at night with no solar input. No shore power.
Small solar (14 amps) and small wires to the back of the refer and a old tech controller seem to be fine as the one volt drop from the small wiring seemed to work out fine at 13.6 at the batteries.
Afraid to change it.
May install a separate newer tech solar as i have some of the parts already,
Every new coach made in the biz has a auto combiner as far as I understand.
Best simple explanation I have found:
Can I Connect Dissimilar Batteries in Parallel? (https://www.optimabatteries.com/en-us/experience/2014/04/can-i-connect-dissimilar-batteries-parallel)
I can only verify that red tops and mk gels work together as that's what Foretravel uses on its new coaches.
With a combiner. That's why I refit the original oem system to our coach. Anything else you are on your own and I am not interested in testing variations like I did long ago.
My 97 did not have a BTS as it's Freedom 25 was pre 100k serial number and it's was not full sine wave.
And the already mentioned combiner.
Exactly like Foretravel currently builds.
The mk engineer mentioned 10-12 years life from Foretravel owners.
That's is with isolators as combiners we're not available then
Remember red tops and mk gels. Lowest cost per cycle. Can take a combiner according to Foretravels build
I have had a similar problem with my batteries in the past , I have a wind generator that puts out about 4.5amps per HR when really windy, but I've noticed that even if I switch the isolator off the house batteries if left for a few days with no wind , then their is a definite voltage drop , their is the smallest of spark on the earth terminal of battery when I touch it together I've never managed to find where this power drain is , so now when I leave it and am not using vehicle I just disconnect earth battery cable completely and keep the wind generator connected , no more power drain and plenty of charge in batteries after three weeks of being away from it , I still have to work out where the power drain is , I've looked everywhere over the past 7 years without success everything is off no lights on ,I've just learnt to compensate the problem by disconnecting batteries when not in use