I'm trying to get as much information as I can concerning paint checking/crazing on Foretravel Motorhomes, especially years 2002-2008.
Have any forum members had this problem on their coach?
Is the problem only cosmetic? or will it eventually cause structural problems, like delamination.
Is there a fix that is permanent?
Thanks in Advance!!
John A Meents
No first hand info but the darker colors have more problems,others will answer soon.
Big problem in the high line Monaco motorhomes also the same years. My boss always told me, "expensive to fix correctly, and it will come back", therefore we would never fix. We would discount the RV 15-20 thousand dollars and that usually made the issue go away.
I'd call, and ask for Teresa Smith, please mention I suggested the call. The will have had experience repairing this.
Featured Products (http://www.straightline-rv.com/store/c1/Featured_Products.html)
Can you take a couple of pics? ^.^d Many coaches had this problem: this off a Blue Bird. It's that plastic 'bug shield'.
Crazing is starting to appear in the dark red and black of my 2003. Fiortunately it's still minor and I have little of those colors.
I'm told it's in the gel coat. I'll live with it.
Mike,
I'm considering buying a 2007 Foretravel 36' Nimbus. I live in Texas, and the Coach is in California. I've been told by the seller it has some checking/crazing on dark colors-I'm waiting for them to send me some images. If I get the images, I will post them.
Thanks!!!
John
I have it.. Can be sanded and repainted but eventually it comes back. Dont think any issues besides looks.. It comes from the hot summers and dark colors.. Not as bad on the lighter colors..
Mine is a 2002 in the hot nevada desert
Our 03 has it in the black swooshes on the sunny side. When we purchased it, we had Xtreme sand it all out and repaint. Crazing came back within a couple of years.
The crazing happens with different expansion rates of the adjoining bodywork due to the different colors' heat absorption. The only fix to to use similar colors .
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As was stated it was the Dow Fiberglass
Mike,
Seller sent me one image, but it has too many reflections to show anything. The problem on the coach I'm looking at is not a plastic bug shield or Diamond Shield problem, I believe it is an outgassing problem with the fiberglass under the dark colors-either a problem with the fiberglass itself or not letting things cure long enough before gel coating the fiberglass, and then painting and top coating over it. I'm not sure this is the correct description of the cause.
Thanks,
John
Work the paint problem into the selling price and forget it,it's not going to rust and you will enjoy a trip just as much as with a flawless paint job.
Its also a common problem in the years mentioned.. nothing to stress over.. get a discount.. The bones are good.. If not, buy a monaco that shines well and fix everything as you drive it because it will fall apart on the road.
The entire industry had the same cracking issues. Only in the dark painted hot areas
Straight white gel-coat rocks, trust me, right Bob?....
Every boat in the harbor is white gel coat for a reason. The big steel ships have gens on 24/7
Except for the polishing .. all is well
Once done, it's done, unless left out in harsh weather, then paint takes it worse.... 8)
But you are correct, 250+ hours, ask me how I know, and it was shinny to start with....
Chris when can I bring mine up?
Lets see, $90.00 hrs (brother in-law price) X 250 hrs....I am in......But you are always welcome to visit for free 8) ....
Chris 250+ hours, what we're using to buff? a q-tip LOL. Unfortunately my front badly weathered decal/stripe stains go apparently all the way thru the gelcoat, and I think I will have to wrap the front cap where the badly weathered graphics/stains were. Wrap on the cap has it's advantages I keep telling myself, as it takes the brunt of road travel damage. Wanted to have an all naked (white gelcoat coach) but I guess thats not going to happen. :'( just going to have to live my glossy side stripes and glossy 30 year old gelcoat.
Foretravel switched to a max guard 29 gel coat around 95-96 per the spec sheets.
If it makes you all feel better, ours had a complete strip, new paint and stripes done about six years ago. I've stayed n top of it with Megular's, but living in the Arizona sun, I can see the dark green decals starting to fail, especially on the nose! :'(
Bob, would you happen to know the Build Number perhaps, somehow, or could I contact the Factory to find out what product they used, looks like that company is still in Business! Thanks!
In 1997, I believe it was a U-320 42' rolled into the Escondido store, from Nacogdoches. As the Acceptance Inspection was going on, Blisters were Immediately detected, then some Delamination, as well! It was the First Factory Painted Coach, as I was told, and it was there at our lot for only a day or three. It went back to the Factory, for repairs. I'd say that the Dark Colors can be detrimental to our Coaches, possibly because of the Technique used to Bond our Coaches, in the Vacubond Process? They could have found a solution, I wished I could quote just what that was? It was a Dark Blue, as I recall? Looked Gorgeous but had issues! I'd contact the factory, and ask for specific guidance as to Paint... Process, or Type perhaps, before applying it! I am sure the Bugs got worked out, as many since have paint!
Tom,
You might check with Xtreme Paint and Graphics about delamination and paint problems. The are on North Street in Nac.
Jim,
2002 U320 42'
Mine had deep green stains under the upper, front, and side stripe's after I removed the decals. I did everything, acid, bleach etc. The 250+ hours included removing the decals. I only spent maybe an hour on the wheels. The decals that are left will come off easy, they don't leave a stains.For some reason the green swirl's don't stain, nor does the lower decals.Just the edge which can be seen if not polished out.
I got frustrated with the stain, figured at that point I was going to need to go back with a stripe, which I didn't want to do.
I took a DA with dry 220, then 320 grit, working my way up to 400 dry. Then from that by hand wet sanded with, 800,1000, 1500,2000, then last 2500. After that, 3 levels of polishing compound on a polisher. A testament to how much gelcoat are on these things. Try that with Filon!
Anyway you look at the coach in the sun, there is no stain or sand scratches. Nor is there any edge's from the old decals. But it's not for the faint of heart. Believe it or not, the top stripe was the hardest, because of the narrow area with the window awnings.
I think part of what helped is, the PO had the coach polished out at a FT rally, so what was not under the decals, including the wheels was already polished well.
I plan to do some kind of basic wrap in the future as pictured, but actually happy the way it looks. People like it more then me, and I get complements all the time. So just going with it this year.
Chris
Here is a link to my posting when I did it:
Decal Stain Removal (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=32330.msg289016#msg289016)
Here's what's happening to our nose and starting to creep around the sun side. The tech said it was normal for the nose, as warranty does not cover stripes on a angle. I told him it was creeping around the corner and he pretty much said, "five years, what's the big deal?" I told him "F..K YOU". :facepalm:
Next time have a wrap shop do it with 3M...Lasts awesome. What I did on our old coach. Neighbor has it, still looks great
30+ years ago I would have customers put their hand on a Foretravel white skin, then the decal then walk next door to the country coach dealers lot and touch their sidewall. Obviously hotter.
Part of the sales process for me and my guys.
Many here now use their gens more and/or are power pedestal to pedestal people.
The paint heat gain would mean very little with power on.
As far as the cracking it is of interest that the same gel coat I have can start cracking with a dark area paint treatment over enough years.
I started to ask 6 years ago about reapplying the original max guard 29 gel coating. Anyone have any info?
My quote to customers back then "too big a box to be anything other than white gel coat"
John A. Meents wrote:I'm trying to get as much information as I can concerning paint checking/crazing on Foretravel Motorhomes, especially years 2002-2008.Have any forum members had this problem on their coach?Is the problem only cosmetic? or will it eventually cause structural problems, like delamination.Is there a fix that is permanent?Thanks in Advance!!John,I think the Forum is getting loaded up with some misinformation on this topic. There have also been bits of valid information on the Forum:
Because I have one small area of this on my coach, I had James Stallings explain this phenomenon to me in detail. What he told me agrees with everything else I've been able to find on the internet. I didn't take notes, but this is what I recall and I think it is very accurate:
- As Bob has already pointed out, this issue is in no way unique to Foretravel
- It is an Owens-Corning fiberglass issue that is not well understood, documented or even fully disclosed for a whole host of litigatory reasons.
- That Division of O-C is now out of business (end of 2008)
- Many coach manufacturers used O-C panels, in composite sidewall construction. Any of those panels are ripe with the issue, if all or several of the variables that follow happen to line up.
- Newall, Tiffin, Newmar, National RV, Country Coach, Monaco, Travel Supreme, Holiday Rambler, Thor, Beaver, Safari (and later SMC), and of course, Foretravel, among others, all used the O-C panels and had varying degrees of the issue (mitigated more or less by the variables that follow).
- The O-C panel off-gassing and micro-strand lifting fiberglass problems were first noted in 2000, sometimes only a few short months after initial construction. O-C made many changes between 2000 and 2008, when the division was closed. Later generations (between 2000 and 2008) were much less prone to the crazing problem.
- As a side issue, If I recall correctly, 2000 was the time frame that James Stallings (as an FT employee) was building and getting the first FT Full Body Paint facility operational on the west side of SR 59, just north of the FT complex. The first FB painted FT's came out of that facility in 2000 or 2001 and a competing outfit in Florida (for the Tampa FT Sales and Service Center) was also turning a few naked coaches into FB painted FT's in Florida.
- The most important variables regarding whether you will or will not experience the crazing are:
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- which generation of O-C panels you have (early years were more susceptible)
- Color of your paint: In general, darker and particularly Black, Red and Blue being the worst
- Small dark stripes (under an inch or so wide) are not a problem but widths greater than 4 inches or so generate enough heat to generate fiberglass off-gassing and micro-fiber lifting which initiates the crazing.
- How intense and how direct/how perpendicular the sunlight is to the darkly painted surfaces (south and west exposures are worse than north and east).
- Exposure time (days are OK, months are not). Those of us with lots or property in the south where one side of the coach gets unrelenting daily doses are the worst.
- Typical subsurface temperature elevations above ambient, due to solar heating, are easily seen with an IR "gun" and they are often in excess of fifty degrees to as much as eighty five degrees higher than ambient. I saw 190 degree surface temperatures pretty consistently during 110 degree days in the Southwest this past summer.
- The composition of the paint, particularly the clear coat(s) and what the UV blocking values are of each. That's the biggest reason why Foretravels appear to have less problems than other brands. The paint has better UV blocking, may have more clear coats with higher ratings, etc. It's also a big part of what separates Extreme Paint and Graphics work from others since James split away from FT and established his own business in 2004. James does not compromise and he uses better paint/processes, the greatest differences being from 2008 to current. Beyond his business and customer relationship ethic, his work simply endures better and stays looking fresh for much longer.
The crazing issues are cosmetic and do not lead to breeching of the gel coat (breeches that would allow moisture intrusion): It's just a case of being unsightly.
While expensive, it is a reasonably straightforward process to mask off, sand out the flaws, prep and repaint and then multiple clear coat to look just like new. But the crazing problem, still lurks in the fiberglass under the gel coat and the crazing will return, if other variables remain unchanged. Repair and turn the coach into a Hanger Queen and the problem will remain fixed.
Many manufacturers (Newmar, Tiffin and National RV being the most prominent) replaced entire sidewalls on coaches to eliminate the crazing problem. There was a lot of vying for, and hard feelings over, authorized warranty repairs, within these customers/manufacturers. It was also a large contributor to National RV's bankruptcy, in some ways similar to Foretravel's financial crisis over the 2002/2003 end cap seam repairs (200+ full body painted coach repairs that the Fore Family stood behind, warranty-wise).
HTH,
Neal
The stripes WERE done with 3M, I still have the cut sheets. I'm thinking lack of prep, OR, that stuff just does NOT stand up to our weather, even though the stripes were done in Phoenix! My files show the stripes were digitially printed on "3M IJ180C..Lt. Silver met."
Foretravel long ago made their own sidewalls in house on 12' sheets of floated glass. Hence the vertical line every 12' on a ftx. No 40' pieces of glass available.
Old beavers made their sidewalls in house also as they incorporated end grain balsa wood in their floated, hung. side wall. Plus pastel paints only. Well known in the industry that dark paint would delaminate the then current skin adhesive.
Skins would look mottled at 140 degrees plus
Well I'll be jiggered. Another good reason to live in the Northwest, and store your coach inside. 8)
Protectant 303 can help
CW
303 is essential on the old stripes, but not on the newer 3Ms, any quality wax is just fine (THEY SAY!). I'm just going to keep a eye on ours and see how bad it becomes. The guy that put them on offered me a great deal to replace them (after warranty), but only to someone as picky as I am, it's not too bothersome. Those stripes, new, alone, after the paint job, were about $3500.00. In his defense, he did a incredible job!
What did you do to your coach today VII (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=33153.msg340165#new)
Just a thought but old corvettes have similar problems. Why not get an opinion from a corvette shop. They have been fiberglass since 1953. There are many products that are out there that we may not know about.
This is what happens when the coach is left in the Arizona sun waaay too long. Here's the four best products for keeping the coach spiffy! ^.^d
I bet the 3rd from left, really brings the shine out, I mean the more you use it, the better the decals will look?
CW