Can a Foretravel Motorhome with a Hydro-Hot Heating System be used in cold weather conditions without any risk of damaging the water distribution system and holding tanks ( such as freezing water lines, cracking water lines, or damaging holding tanks)?
What temperature ranges would be safe?
Thanks in Advance!!!
John A Meents
If you mean Aqua-Hot, I have used ours into the single digits at night. It would not be safe to store at those temps but using it keeps everything from freezing on our coach.
Craneman,
The 2007 Foretravel Nimbus Motorhome I'm looking at has a Hydro-Hot Heating System, not the Aqua-Hot System.
John
John,
We have the larger Aqua Hot unit but camp with a couple that has the Hydro Hot unit. We (us and them) have been in weather down to 0 overnight (for a week) with no problem. The day time temps never got above 20 during that time. Put it over on diesel and set the basement heat to 50 or so and you will be good to go.
Pamela & Mike
Agree with the others. When I was full timing, we saw 0 to -4 eight nights in a row, didn't get above 10 for the high. Kept the coach at 70 and the bays at 50. We stayed more comfortable then than what my bricks and sticks now do at 70. One of the big reasons why I love my aqua hot.
Larry
A few years ago I had my coach ( with AquaHot) in freezing weather for about a week and two things froze up: the ice maker control valve which is in the back of the fridge behind the exterior access panel and a water drain valve mounted right behind the bay door in front of the AquaHot. After discovering the problems I put in trouble lights with 60 watt bulbs and nothing else broke.
The AquaHots in the U320 coaches are bigger capacity than the HydroHot in the Nimbus. Maybe Rudy will tell us the differences and how it will affect cold weather use.
Once asked another high end mfg what was the difference and why they used HH instead of AH, and was told the founder and owner had called AH tech support and got no help, now all their rvs since have had HH. True story.
When Vehicle Heating Systems, whose name has been changed to Aqua Hot Heating Systems, started to manufacure a smaller, less expensive heater, they called it the Hydro Hot.
The Hydro Hot model is now the 450 DE model. These models have a 5 gallon coolant tank vs the older 431/12 or 100 02S seen in Fore Family made Coaches which have 16 gallon coolant tanks. The bigger heaters store over 3 times as much heat as the smaller Hydro Hot or 400 series heaters. The big heaters will heat the inside and heat hot water at the same time. The smaller heaters will heat the inside OR heat hot water, but not both at the same time. No interior heat during hot water use with the small heaters. The small heaters cost less for the manufacturer to purchase.
Now days there are multiple models in the 400 series to continue the lower cost for manufacturers to choose from. Tiffin, Integra Anthem and Cornerstone install the 450 DE with 4 pumps including engine preheat.
FORETRAVEL IC37 and Fleetwood install the 400D with 2 pumps, no engine preheat and 5 gallon tank. These heat the interior OR heat hot water favoring hot water heating.
Integra Aspire has the 400LP, two pumps, no engine preheat with LP burner, no diesel.
Thor installs the 250LP, only 1 pump, 3.7 gallon tank and LP burner.
Each heater will keep the coach warm down in to the single digits or even below zero. But with some water pipes mounted near the outside walls, warm air may not be easily circulated by the fan coils to those areas. Just be sure you have house 12 vdc and diesel or propane to last the cold spell.
Getting sufficent warm air to all areas having water pipes is determined by the coach builder and their learned degreed design engineers. But, the warm air is available from the Aqua Hot brand heaters.
In nine years, I have never had a problem contacting Aqua Hot Tech Support. My phone call looks like everyone elses call, no special behind the scene phone number to them.
Hope this helps.
Can anyone answer this question, we are looking for a U320 because it has the Aqua Hot heating system, We would be happy with a U295 if the gas heat keeps the coach as warm in temperatures described above, (-4F). Is the Aqua hot that much better?
Second question: What is the coldest outside temperature the coach will remain unfrozen as opposed to comfortable?
Thanks
I had an older motorhome with a conventional propane furnace and now a 1995 U320 with an Aqua-Hot. There is no comparison. I will never own another motorhome without a large-capacity Aqua-Hot!
Folks seem to be pretty happy with their Aqua Hots when they are working. A fair bit of complexity to them compared to the propane heaters. They require maintenance and are not tolerant of sitting for long periods without being exercised. They generate a nice, zoned, quiet and even heat. They consume diesel and produce diesel exhaust, a deal killer for some. Propane heaters will generate plenty of heat, but they are noisy, (interior fan and burner noise) and of course require propane. Having propane heat means you will also have a propane water heater as the Aqua Hot covers that function as well. Lots of folks with AquaHot have eliminated the propane stoves and gone to all electric, requiring either a shore power connection or generator usage for cooking. Or one heck of a lot of battery capacity. A replacement Aqua Hot is in the $10K range, replacement propane heaters maybe $1.5K.
I realize I left your question unaddressed, operating in -4 degree temps. I have no doubt the propane heaters would do the job, but there are so many other items you will be addressing operating in those temps. Don't know the BTU output of Aquahot, but imagine it's capable as well. A real downside to the propane heat in these temps is propane capacity. Aquahot, drawing on a 150 gallon + fuel tank will no doubt go far longer than a tank of propane. Aquahot also has the advantage of providing engine preheat in large quantity, whereas with propane you have to rely on the less capable electric preheat built into most engines.
We were in some single digit temps with our Aqua Hot and zero problems heating the coach and the water heater. Love that system when it was working!
Irish,
To answer your question, we don't have an AH, just a single propane furnace. Cold weather camping use depends on how cold it is and how willing you are to make the coach cold weather tolerant. I did this post 6 years ago (when we were still learning how good a FT is) with some suggestions on things you can do to avoid cold weather damage and live comfortably. It was my first cold weather experience with our Foretravel. I found I could live quite comfortably with all electric (not using the propane furnace) with the proper prep. It did take a few nights before I felt comfortable with the setup.
We try not to camp in really cold weather but I spent 3 weeks in Colorado again this past Dec and did most of the described prep. Ended up we didn't have any severe cold weather, but it didn't take long to get the coach ready just in case. Still had the small electric heaters and bought about $25 worth of foam insulation for the basement bays.
Camping in Cold Weather-Long but hopefully useful (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=19903.msg142550#msg142550)
Rich
Rich
Thanks for that, I had read your cold weather camping description. Would it be fair to say that tha bays do not stay as hot as the coach and the plumbing there would be more likely to freeze than the living quarters plumbing?
David, I can't answer for the propane furnace keeping the bays warm since this is the only coach I have ever owned. With the Aqua-Hot, it has a separate zone set for the basement with its own thermostat. I cant remember for certain, but it seems like it could be set for up to 55 degrees (if I am wrong, others will chime in). When I was full timing in Ks winter, I made sure that the thermostat was set up as high as I could get it, made sure that the air could flow freely through the bays and kept the fresh water tank full so that the mass would help retain the heat. I considered putting in small electric heaters or lights to help, but that wasn't necessary in my case.
I didn't mind running the AH extra and burning diesel. The 200 gallon tank would outlast many times over a propane tank, even bringing in an external 100 gallon propane as many of the SOB's around me had done. A couple of 5th wheels in the park ran out of propane, pipes froze and had rather extensive damage.
As has been brought out, both have advantages and disadvantages. Do what makes you happy and the most sense for how you intend to use the coach. Happy hunting.
I would say that in general, the bays are colder than the coach with a propane furnace. With the propane furnace(s), there is ducted heat to the left and right water bays. But only when the furnace is running in the coach. They aren't as well insulated as the coach but it also depends on how cold and for how long. There is quite a bit of thermal mass if your fresh tank is full that helps damp the temp swings in the bay.
There is some heat in the storage bay from the electrical equipment like the charger, air compressor and HWH boxes. In fact, there is a thermostatically controlled fan to keep the bay cool in hot weather.
If you really spend much time below 20 degrees, a couple of remote thermometers are really handy. They will let you know if additional heat is necessary. As mentioned above, the damage can start and cascade to very serious, very quickly when it is really cold.
Rich
David,
1. Yes.
2. To just answer your basic question Yes. Now the truth is this is a complex questions that has several variables.
We have camped in temps down to around 0 several times in Foretravels with Aqua Hot and one with heat from the propane furnace. As has been mentioned the A/H has basement thermostat that controls the heat radiators that heat the service bay area. This is where your water pump, water tank, sewer tanks, and all related piping. Between these heaters and the heat given off from the A/H its self the basement will be kept nice and warm. The piping that runs through the basement cable tray also helps with heating the floor of the coach kind of nice with stocking feet.
Our coach with the propane heaters worked OK in the same freezing temps. The rear heater (our coach had 2) fed warm air to the service bay to keep that area warm. After tracking the temps around the water pump we did add some small light bulbs (this was before the time of those micro heaters) to be safe. The reason was that we found out that area around the water pump was in the low 30's when the heater was getting close to cycling back on. The big limiting factor is the size of the propane tank, so if you are going to have an extended stay in these temps. you will need some type of extend-a-stay propane system.
The thing about these coaches is in most cases (yes there are some extreme cases that some may come up with) if you keep the inside comfortable the water system will be comfortable too.
Pamela & Mike
The coldest we have overnighted in our FT was -18° F in Bloomington, IL in a Walmart perking lot. AquaHot on diesel, no land line, we ran the generator for a couple hours in the evening and an hour in the morning. Ran the AquaHot engine preheat for about three hours in the morning. We had sufficient heat and hot water and an engine that reported about 50° temps when it started right up.
Rudy told me the only AHs he has had to replace were due to freeze damage. Normal maintenance is pretty easy to do yourself. If you run your diesel side once a month for one cycle an "annual maintenance" can be three years apart. Just a couple steps past that and most everything that is serviceable is accessible to you.
All in all after owning an RV of one sort or another since 1974, I would be hard pressed to own another without an AquaHot.
Thanks All for your comments, sounds like I will do better with the Aqua Hot rather than the gas furnaces, I hate to have to winterize the coach for 6 weeks of possible serious cold before we head out and go south!
Really appreciate your help
David
David, Aqua Hot or LP furnaces if you are where it is cold enough to freeze water you should winterize your coach. We do ours even though we head south in two months. Once you have been through the process it is pretty simple and takes an hour or so to winterize and not much more to unwinterize when you get somewhere warm. When you are ready PM me and i can help you through the process step by step.
It makes sense to winterize if you will be having more than a few days of below-freezing temperatures. The process is relatively easy and inexpensive. However heating the coach for several weeks can get expensive and there's always the risk of a heating-system failure unless closely monitored and frozen systems can be very difficult and expensive to repair/replace.
The aqua hot's 1500 watt 120 volt element so keep the tanks and front of the coach and the bath over freezing. Might never shut off the fans. Maybe set really low?
Can't say about real low temps, but have set coach and basement thermostats at 40 f and aqua-hot did cycle and maintain 40 f in ambient 20's on only one 120 volt element.
Electric only on the AH, coach in the coach house in the teens above zero, LR thermostat set to 45. No problem maintaining temp, it does not run all the time. Dash blower switched off, that screws up LR heat and the thermostat. Easy to go up to 55 while we are loading to go. Add diesel the afternoon before we leave, inside temps at 70, engine preheat on overnight, ready to go in the morning.
This is in no way a means to prevent your coach from suffering damage from freezing.
Great I figured that a plugged into a normal 20 amp breaker would eliminate the need to winterize a aqua hot coach in moderate winter, not minus 20 and winds
It would be foolish to risk not taking prudent steps to prevent freezing damage to a coach if it will be in a below freezing temperatures. It takes very little time below freezing to freeze water in pex lines, valves, the water pump and other critical places. A flooded, frozen coach will be expensive to fix and very time consuming. Much more than the hour and $20 for supplies it takes to be safe.
Guess it depends on the circumstances. My coach plugged in next to the house. When it is really cold, will go out and check it every day. If you can do that, and you see a problem, take the appropriate actions.
Ours is currently parked outside our mountain house at 7500'. We have been experiencing lows of below 10F. The Aquahot is on and keeping the coach warm. The warning system texts me if the temperature gets too low.
We had -34 degrees a couple weeks ago at home. It costs $4-5/days to run the AH continuously on electric in very cold weather and I don't think that would have been sufficient at those temps. When your pipes bust and the coach floods in freezing weather, when your water pump freezes and breaks, when valves crack, when faucet cartridges fail, when you are paying to fix everything or trying to do it yourself you will wonder why you didn't take an hour and spend $20 to protect yourself properly in the first place.
"Do what makes you happy" my friend Dave M would say. Until you are no longer happy.