Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: Ted & Karen on February 19, 2019, 08:43:34 pm
Title: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Ted & Karen on February 19, 2019, 08:43:34 pm
This is a follow up of replacing our Amish Cooling unit with the 12 volt compressor conversion from JC Refrigeration. Yesterday the unit was installed by Martin's Mobile RV Service here in Yuma. Martin specializes in RV refrigeration but this is the first conversion to 12 volt compressor unit he has done. I was with him the entire time and we worked through some questions together, but he did the heavy physical work . The new unit was installed, wired in as instructed by JC Refrigeration, and works. I have been experimenting with the settings on the refrigerator and currently the refrigerator is 35 and the freezer is 11 on setting number 3 out of 5. These are the same controls from our Dometic 2 door refrigerator/freezer, only the cooling unit has been changed. Now we have no ammonia, hydrogen, propane, etc. Just operating on a 12 volt compressor so no inverter.
We are plugged in at a campground until Saturday, then we will start testing boondocking with the new cooling unit. An initial test on the wires when we turned it on showed an amperage draw of a little over 3 amps. We shall see how this works and I will keep a close eye on things, but I am very optimistic about this being a good solution for us. We like to boondock, but will hook up in networks like Thousand Trails when it is available and convenient.
I am excited as I don't need to have my inverter on all night to run the refrigerator and if initial calculations are correct, this system will work well with my stock 2- 8G8D batteries providing 225 amp hours per night. My 500 watts of solar should power us for the daytime and I can run my generator for 1-2 hours per evening to keep batteries well charged on these long nights. As the days get longer, generator runs will probably decrease. I also don't need to worry about being perfectly level all the time as I did with the absorption refrigerator.
Perfect solution? Probably not but seems to fit my lifestyle now as a full timer living 11 years in our 2001 U-270. I like having the propane stove, water heater, and furnace, but am happy to get away from the absorption refrigerator. Now I don't worry about possible refrigerator fires.
My conclusion thus far is to make the best decisions possible based on the information you have, your budget, mechanical expertise, etc. Then light the fire in your engine and head down the road to enjoy the journey in your Foretravel.
Cya down the road ^.^d
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Johnstons on February 19, 2019, 09:27:01 pm
Thanks for the update. Bruce told me on the phone yesterday you were doing that. I had MOT order an Amish unit today so it will be there when we are in Nach on the 4th (hopefully.). Wish you already had more experience with it. What is the difference in the price? I'm sure they could change our order if we did it quickly.
Come back to Oklahoma in that beautiful coach of your one of these days.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Ted & Karen on February 19, 2019, 11:15:42 pm
My conversion to the 12 volt HVAC was under warranty as my Amish Cooling unit failed for some reason under warranty. My only cost for this was the installation by Martin's Mobile RV Service. I believe the cost for the conversion unit is close to the same for the absorption unit, but you can contact JC Refrigeration for a quote. They have 2 HVAC conversion options- the 12 volt like I have and 120 volt a/c. Amanda and Douglas (Siren & Scuba Guy) have this option in their coach. Hope this helps.
Cya down the road ^.^d
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Dave & Diane on February 20, 2019, 01:11:33 am
Just curious. Do you have the Dometic RM3862 in your 2001 U270?
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Ghallid on February 20, 2019, 07:58:39 am
Dave I just removed my Dometic RM3862 and replaced it with a residential unit, although it worked perfectly. The extra space in the fridge is great and the conversion was really easy in my 2001 U270.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Tom Endres on February 20, 2019, 10:31:19 am
Pleas keep us posted on it's performance.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: kenhat on February 20, 2019, 10:58:28 am
Thanks for the update Ted. I will be watching closely. :)
see ya ken
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on February 20, 2019, 12:57:12 pm
Ted, glad you are back to chilling out. Please monitor 12v power use over time. It will help you understand what you are using and make good choices if you need to. It will also add to the collective understanding of the various refrigerator options power usage.
It would be interesting for somone to meter up (Kill-a-Watt meter) their LP refrig while plugged in for a couple weeks to know how much they actually use.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Ted & Karen on February 20, 2019, 01:25:01 pm
RM2862- is my model Dometic.
Important to remember that this conversion is due to the failure of my cooling unit under warranty, so no cost except installation to me. Plus I now have another 3 year warranty which I will extend to 6 years for $75.
There are always other options out there- this one makes the most sense to me with my lifestyle. Plus, I am still running a mostly stock house except for the refrigerator cooling unit. 2 8G8D batteries, propane furnace and stove, water heater, now 12 volt compressor refrigerator with my 500 watts of solar. Seems simple to me and I like KISS.
We shall see but this morning solid ice cubes in tray in the freezer @18 and fridge was 35. Karen is happy to have refrigerator working again. ^.^d
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Dan Stansel on February 20, 2019, 02:11:33 pm
MOT installed a full home Samsung my domestic was too slow to recover. After one year best thing I ever did.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Caflashbob on February 20, 2019, 08:24:33 pm
Ted and Karen I think it's possible the U320 battery racks will fit your coach.
Visone was long ago parting out a U320. Would not be suprised if the parts were still there.
That would allow a third 8d above the original two you have now.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Ted & Karen on February 20, 2019, 08:39:39 pm
Bob- thanks for the idea of adding the rack for a third battery. Expanding battery capacity is an option but since my current batteries are 5.5 years old, I think I will try and see how this new system works first. Otherwise I would wind up getting 3 batteries or another configuration of the same age. Based on my recent experience at Quartzite, I believe my current batteries will serve me well overnight and then solar will take over during the day. We shall see......................
This is a great experiment for me as until 3 years ago I lived without solar and used my generator when we boondocked. That system worked well and my solar has significantly cut down on generator use, but was never intended to replace the generator, just help out. The things we do to amuse ourselves ^.^d
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on February 20, 2019, 09:42:18 pm
4 L16 6 volt batteries will fit in the same footprint as 2 8Ds and will give you 830 amp hrs of capacity and room for switches, fuses, shunts and bus bars. And they will weight less than 3 8Ds with the OEM rack and the 3rd battery rack from the junk yard that will cost an arm and a leg and then you pay for shipping.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Old phart phred on February 21, 2019, 12:17:04 am
We buy lots of L16 at work, some matainance involved on the coach.. But I would be able to go through all the suspect "cores" as once a piece of equipment has issues they just replace all 6 of them. Most could probably be revived with proper water levels, desulfurization, and equalization. Lots of room on my old ORED for L16. Coach had 1 new 8d, and 6 other 2014+ 12 v Costco deep cycle/marine start in three separate battery racks.. but wiring was a mess and a battery boiler charger. Arrived home and 3 were toast
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Caflashbob on February 21, 2019, 11:42:29 am
The lifeline ,made in USA , L16's are equalizable. I know of no others made in USA or equalizable L16 made.
Lifeline AGM L16 Deep Cycle Battery (https://www.powerstridebattery.com/lifeline-agm-l16-deep-cycle-battery-gpl-l16t)
I can find no gel L16's
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Ted & Karen on February 24, 2019, 02:06:13 pm
Ok folks- here is the update you have been waiting for.
Yesterday we unplugged and headed out to public land, operating on my solar and 2 8G8D gell batteries that were installed June, 2013. I used our small inverter to charge up our jetpack, phones, MacBookPro, Karen's IPAD, etc during the day so when the sun went down, we operated all of our devices on their own batteries- No inverter on at all. In fact. other than using our LED lights when needed and the water pump ( bathroom breaks are a good thing), the only thing on was the 12 volt refrigerator. I checked my resting voltage after dark and the refrigerator was in between cycles ( off) and my voltage was 12.9 . At 6 AM after a bathroom break, I looked at my resting voltage after the refrigerator being on for almost 12 hours ( turned on but cycling as needed) and the resting voltage was 12.8 Yeah- a winner.
Do I know exactly how many amp hours I used? NO Do I care how many amp hours I used? NO Did the unit run fine all night on battery power? YES Did I run the generator? NO Did I have to add battery capacity? NO Am I happy with this? YES Is Karen happy with this? YES
We live full time in our coach and I want it to work and be as simple as possible. KISS is a good idea and it works in this case as the unit was replaced under warranty ( no cost to me other than installation), it works, it is a power sipper, I didn't have to do any modifications electrically or carpentry, etc. I now have a refrigerator that I do not have to be concerned about for a potential fire. Life is good. ^.^d
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: D.J. Osborn on February 24, 2019, 02:32:57 pm
Ok folks- here is the update you have been waiting for.
Yesterday we unplugged and headed out to public land, operating on my solar and 2 8G8D gell batteries that were installed June, 2013. I used our small inverter to charge up our jetpack, phones, MacBookPro, Karen's IPAD, etc during the day so when the sun went down, we operated all of our devices on their own batteries- No inverter on at all. In fact. other than using our LED lights when needed and the water pump ( bathroom breaks are a good thing), the only thing on was the 12 volt refrigerator. I checked my resting voltage after dark and the refrigerator was in between cycles ( off) and my voltage was 12.9 . At 6 AM after a bathroom break, I looked at my resting voltage after the refrigerator being on for almost 12 hours ( turned on but cycling as needed) and the resting voltage was 12.8 Yeah- a winner.
Do I know exactly how many amp hours I used? NO Do I care how many amp hours I used? NO Did the unit run fine all night on battery power? YES Did I run the generator? NO Did I have to add battery capacity? NO Am I happy with this? YES Is Karen happy with this? YES
We live full time in our coach and I want it to work and be as simple as possible. KISS is a good idea and it works in this case as the unit was replaced under warranty ( no cost to me other than installation), it works, it is a power sipper, I didn't have to do any modifications electrically or carpentry, etc. I now have a refrigerator that I do not have to be concerned about for a potential fire. Life is good. ^.^d
Ted, not sure which fridge your unit came with that you did the upgrade on, but was wonder if you could tell us if yours is a single door with the top freezer or a side by side? All of the 2000 through 2005 U320's have the side by side and was wondering if JR Refrigeration has units for those? I know we had a side by side in our '98, but can't remember the model number. We never had a problem, but with all the horror stories out there now, it will either be an upgrade on the stock like you just did or installing a residential if the unit we purchase doesn't have one already in place. We also will be full time again and going with some solar and more batteries if necessary.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Dakota Slim on February 24, 2019, 03:41:25 pm
Ok folks- here is the update you have been waiting for.
Yesterday we unplugged and headed out to public land, operating on my solar and 2 8G8D gell batteries that were installed June, 2013. I used our small inverter to charge up our jetpack, phones, MacBookPro, Karen's IPAD, etc during the day so when the sun went down, we operated all of our devices on their own batteries- No inverter on at all. In fact. other than using our LED lights when needed and the water pump ( bathroom breaks are a good thing), the only thing on was the 12 volt refrigerator. I checked my resting voltage after dark and the refrigerator was in between cycles ( off) and my voltage was 12.9 . At 6 AM after a bathroom break, I looked at my resting voltage after the refrigerator being on for almost 12 hours ( turned on but cycling as needed) and the resting voltage was 12.8 Yeah- a winner.
Do I know exactly how many amp hours I used? NO Do I care how many amp hours I used? NO Did the unit run fine all night on battery power? YES Did I run the generator? NO Did I have to add battery capacity? NO Am I happy with this? YES Is Karen happy with this? YES
We live full time in our coach and I want it to work and be as simple as possible. KISS is a good idea and it works in this case as the unit was replaced under warranty ( no cost to me other than installation), it works, it is a power sipper, I didn't have to do any modifications electrically or carpentry, etc. I now have a refrigerator that I do not have to be concerned about for a potential fire. Life is good. ^.^d
Glad you are happy. Do you know what the inside temperatures are in the refrigerator and freezer?
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Ted & Karen on February 24, 2019, 04:09:07 pm
Joe- my unit is the RM 2862 small unit with top freezer, bottom refrigerator. 36 ft coach came this way, at least mine did.
Temps vary as the compressor cycles- naturally Refrigerator runs 33-35 is Freezer 8-13, depends on where it is in the cycle.
Life is good ^.^d
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: gracerace on February 24, 2019, 04:55:58 pm
Winner, winner, chicken dinner.....Happy wife, happy life! Good job, and thanks for updates Chris
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Old Toolmaker on February 25, 2019, 10:09:25 am
We chose to keep our single pressure ammonia absorption cooling unit. Well, we bought a re-built one as the old one had leaked leaving only water inside to gurgle and percolate.
I finished the installation late yesterday and test ran it last night. Last night was also our first night in our new to us home. In the middle of the night, and thanks to 40° outside temperatures, the interior of the Dometic 4804 was down to 28°.
I'm 62 and I've been using this type of refrigerator off and on since I was 16. I like having an Einstein-Szilard refrigerator and I like the magic that goes on inside.
Having something magical is important in my world. That, and ice cream.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: gracerace on February 25, 2019, 08:35:04 pm
We chose to keep our single pressure ammonia absorption cooling unit. Well, we bought a re-built one as the old one had leaked leaving only water inside to gurgle and percolate.
I finished the installation late yesterday and test ran it last night. Last night was also our first night in our new to us home. In the middle of the night, and thanks to 40° outside temperatures, the interior of the Dometic 4804 was down to 28°.
I'm 62 and I've been using this type of refrigerator off and on since I was 16. I like having an Einstein-Szilard refrigerator and I like the magic that goes on inside.
Having something magical is important in my world. That, and ice cream.
I am 71, been using them since I was 16 also.......replaced a few cooling units in my day. They still work fine. Cheers
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Bob & Sue on February 26, 2019, 01:08:03 pm
The only issue that comes up with ours happens in 100 degree temps. The fridge struggles to keep cold but the freezer still keeps food and ice just frozen. Ice cream softens a little but that's somewhat common. After being in the icream business ( Schwans ) for years I learned that ice cream products are the very first thing to go if a freezer isn't gettin it done. Other food can be rock hard but ice cream could be softer , and still fine to eat. Another piece of trivia,, ice cream doesn't go bad if sealed property. Had several customer that stocked up on Christmas flavors that were still perfect a year later.
Cheers.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Dakota Slim on February 26, 2019, 01:37:45 pm
The only issue that comes up with ours happens in 100 degree temps. The fridge struggles to keep cold but the freezer still keeps food and ice just frozen. Ice cream softens a little but that's somewhat common. After being in the icream business ( Schwans ) for years I learned that ice cream products are the very first thing to go if a freezer isn't gettin it done. Other food can be rock hard but ice cream could be softer , and still fine to eat. Another piece of trivia,, ice cream doesn't go bad if sealed property. Had several customer that stocked up on Christmas flavors that were still perfect a year later.
Cheers.
And what type of refrigerator are you using? Do you have your AC going when it's 100 degrees? Inquiring minds want to know.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Bob & Sue on February 26, 2019, 02:30:16 pm
Dakota. Whatever came stock in a U280 I'm guessing. Coach is in Phoenix and we're in Portland until Saturday. Single door fridge and single door freezer on top if that helps. ( Dometic ).
The DW loves the heat so we often don't turn on the air until it's 95 or better. So I'm assuming most people don't have any fridge cooling issues on the 100 or 110 temp days ??
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: jor on February 26, 2019, 02:49:19 pm
Quote
So I'm assuming most people don't have any fridge cooling issues on the 100 or 110 temp days ??
The stock fridges have to work pretty hard in that kind of high heat. Many try to keep the fridge vent out of the direct sunlight and add a fan to draw air over the outside coils. And, of course, the interior fins always freeze up unless you have fans blowing on them. I'm just going to keep with the original (with an ARP) until it fails. Then, I might go a small residential like B&C and others or maybe this 12v which sounds really nifty. jor
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Bob & Sue on February 26, 2019, 05:18:16 pm
I guess I'll be adding a fan or two. I could search it , but what fans are recommended ??
I'm also watching the 12 volt fridge option, either 12 volt or new 3/2 way will be our options ( when the existing one gives out). DW doesn't want to loose the little shelving on the left of fridge. And I don't want to convert to all electric. I actually like the propane appliances.
Drove a propane truck for many years and it was clean and trouble free. Oil was so clean ( looking) when changed that seems we could have dumped it into something else.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: jor on February 26, 2019, 05:44:19 pm
Quote
but what fans are recommended ??
There are a bunch of threads on frig fans. Here are a couple to get you started. The first link is for the exterior and the second, the interior. jor
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Bob & Sue on February 27, 2019, 12:31:18 am
Thanks once again James....
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Ted & Karen on February 27, 2019, 02:49:38 pm
Just a not for Bob & Sue- included in my 12 volt conversion kit was a set of fridge fin fans. I used them to see how they dry up a little condensation on the fins- great!! Something extra I did not expect but am pleased with.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Old Toolmaker on February 28, 2019, 10:08:58 am
The only issue that comes up with ours happens in 100 degree temps. The fridge struggles to keep cold but the freezer still keeps food and ice just frozen.
Ice cream softens a little but that's somewhat common. Cheers.
Yeah, we don't have a problem with the ice cream softening. July and August does bring 100° days and maybe 70° by morning and that is one of the reasons we upgraded from the Rockwood to this Foretravel.
So far in 70° daytime temperatures I'm seeing a regulated 34° in the refrigerator compartment and 8-10° in the freezer. This is one of the re-builds from Pines RV Refrigeration.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: John44 on February 28, 2019, 10:13:18 am
I looked at the Furrion site from another post, they make a 12 volt rv fridge, may be worth a look see.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: ViewRVs on May 31, 2020, 12:44:58 pm
I wanted to ask three follow-up questions regarding the 12v refrigerator conversion.
1) Did the shop have to take the fridge out of the cabinet and out through the front door to do the conversion? 2) Is there already a usable 12v power in the fridge compartment suitable for running the fridge to run on 12v? (We have a 1996 U320) 3) Has anyone taken their coach to JC Refrigeration and had them do the work at the factory?
We are seriously looking at the 12v conversion since our fridge has stopped working. The goal is to switch the fridge to the 12v compressor model, remove the large (and heavy) unnecessary LP tank, add very small LP tank to just run the cook top (the only remaining LP appliance in the U320), and potentially add battery capacity to the 2 batteries that we have now for extended boondocking.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Caflashbob on May 31, 2020, 01:03:00 pm
Last I looked Visione had a later u320 that had the upper battery rack for a third battery.
Get all the parts and cabling.
Maybe a magnet to check to see if your 96 has the steel framing in the battery compartment for the upper tray?
Flag terminals do not fit the upper rack and clear at the top. Needed to be regular terminals.
Most small propane tanks are not DOT and need recertification at times.
Plus may not be correct(legal?) to install inside of a vehicle.
I wonder if possible venting is the difference between a DOT tank like Foretravel installed with its labeling vs a portable tank? Never asked
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Journey, Roam, Explore on May 31, 2020, 01:39:06 pm
Don't know about switching your refrigerator to 12 volt mode only but I don't see why it couldn't happen. If you're serious about having a good refrigerator for boondocking you might want to take a look at what I have in my coach. seafreezeinc (http://www.seafreezeinc.com/index.html) It uses a danfoss BD50 compressor. It runs off a 12 volt or 120 volt. These are custom made in Seattle Washington. There's a freezer on the top and refrigerator on the bottom. It's very well made with good insulation and a cold plate in the back. It's a lot more efficient than a residential refrigerator. Mine was put in by a previous owner Paul Smith. If you look on the forums you can find the thread when he installed it. Currently mine is on the fritz with a bad thermostat and one is on the way. When running it runs very quietly and uses very little power. I can keep ice cream frozen in the freezer and the refrigerator works quite nice as well most of the time. I'm replacing the door gaskets as well since they're fairly old now. And very humid and high temperatures I get a little condensation on the door which is why I'm replacing the gaskets. The other thing to look at is just getting a Danfoss BD50 compressor and a Coldplate I'm trying to modify your fridge.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: ViewRVs on May 31, 2020, 03:22:43 pm
We are specifically looking at the JC Refrigeration conversion. My wife wants to keep the wood panel doors.
As for propane, we'd have to get a small DOT approved tank.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: DayDreamer on May 31, 2020, 04:16:21 pm
I too looked at the JC conversion after reading this thread because I also like the beautiful wood panel fronts.
On the downside, the fridge will still be 20+ years old, yellowed on the inside. Looked at replacement seals too which is another $250.
Now torn between this and a full residential conversion.
Does JC conversion have one for our units...we have a Dometic RM7832 side-by-side which I presume is similar to your coach. I did not see one on their website but have not tried contacting them.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on May 31, 2020, 04:46:03 pm
Not everyone has had the best luck with these conversions. Maybe some of them will post here. A 12v conversion will use almost as much power from your batteries as a new residential refrigerator. Our Samsung uses about 1600-1700 watts per day. At 12.7 volts that is 132 amp hours or about 5.t amps per hour. Reports from the 12 volt conversions were just a little less in an old refrigerator case with just over half the capacity as a new one. Think this one through carefully.
Types of RV Propane Tanks
There are two types of propane tanks found on RVs: ASME tanks and DOT cylinders.
ASME tanks, used most often on motorhomes, are approved by the American Society of Mechanical Engineers. In this case, the RV propane tank mount is the frame of the motorhome itself, so ASME tanks are not removable.
http://www.randkproducts.com/images/66-4942%20tank.jpg ASME Tank example. Photo credit: R & K Products : (http://www.randkproducts.com)
DOT cylinders are used on travel trailers, fifth wheels, truck campers, and some small motorhomes. These are approved by the Department of Transportation. DOT cylinders may be mounted in exterior compartments, or RV propane tank holders on the tongue or bumper of the trailer.
We replaced our big ASME fixed tank with a removable 11 lb DOT approved cylinder that uses a frame mounted carrier in a well vented exterior compartment (where the old LP tank was). Works great!
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: D.J. Osborn on May 31, 2020, 06:00:08 pm
I aee two disadvantages to a 12-Volt refrigerator conversion conpared to installing a new residential refrigerator. First, you still have a roughly 20 (or more) year-old refrigerator that shows its age, has a relatively small capacity and tends to frost up in humid conditions. Second, the power consumption is about the same as that of a residential refrigerator which limits boondocking time without a significant solar system and battery bank. Considering all of this is why we installed a Samsung Rf18 refrigerator and after 2+ years we are absolutely thrilled we did.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Andy 2 on May 31, 2020, 06:08:48 pm
I did not do a conversion, had a three way and a residential fridge both have up the ghost, went to an EverChill 12 volt and have been pleased with it so far. 10.5 cubic foot and the 12 volt wire already in The box from the three way. As the guy says falling from 10 stories so far so good😁
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: DavidS on May 31, 2020, 07:07:52 pm
I aee two disadvantages to a 12-Volt refrigerator conversion conpared to installing a new residential refrigerator. First, you still have a roughly 20 (or more) year-old refrigerator that shows its age, has a relatively small capacity and tends to frost up in humid conditions. Second, the power consumption is about the same as that of a residential refrigerator which limits boondocking time without a significant solar system and battery bank. Considering all of this is why we installed a Samsung Rf18 refrigerator and after 2+ years we are absolutely thrilled we did.
How much solar do you run to handle the fridge loads?
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: D.J. Osborn on May 31, 2020, 08:01:49 pm
How much solar do you run to handle the fridge loads?
I currently have 540 Watts of solar, which is sufficient since nearly all of our camping is with electrical hookups. If we were serious about boondocking then I would make significant solar and battery upgrades. Our switch to a residential refrigerator made sense considering our camping style. My intended point was that I believe the 12-Volt conversion has disadvantages and no significant advantages compared with a residential refrigerator installation.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Journey, Roam, Explore on May 31, 2020, 08:42:36 pm
David I don't believe that a residential fridge uses the same amount of power as a 12v/120v fridge. Mine uses about 2ah per hour. if you're going to spend most of your time plugged into hookups then yeah residential fridge makes a lot of sense. If you're going to be on boondocking even with solar you've got to run that fridge off of an inverter. it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to do it that way if you're boondocking. At least that's my opinion.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on May 31, 2020, 09:57:15 pm
The 12v conversion (or the 120v conversion) use about 5 amps per hour, just a bit less than the Samsung refrigerator that is almost twice the capacity. The refrigerator that JRE says uses 2 amps per hour is also about 1/2 the size of the Samsung.
We have 1200 watts of solar. In the summer we are self sufficient. Not in the winter. It would be nice to have more solar for the spring and fall.
My coach has been outside, not plugged in for 16 days, refrigerator on for about 12 of those, several cloudy days, two all day rains, the rest of the time it is in a mixed sun/shade place. We started at 100% SOC, Late this afternoon we were at 89% SOC. So after 16 days we are down 11% SOC. The lowest point was 73% SOC.
On a nice sunny day in Teton NP we made more than 6KW in a day.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: ViewRVs on May 31, 2020, 10:18:54 pm
Back to the topic.... The original post was about the conversion of the existing fridge to the 12v compressor model. I am not interested in replacing it with a residential model. My wife wants to keep the original wood panel doors. The existing system is broken and needs (to be) replaced. This is a good time to make the switch and eliminate a potential fire hazard.
With the gas/electric fridge gone, the cooktop is the only remaining LP device in the U320 and there is NO need for the excessively large ASME LP tank.
I am not looking to do long term boondocking. Just a night or two at Walmart.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Caflashbob on May 31, 2020, 10:32:38 pm
Fred I love and respect your wants and needs.
That being said as a guy who has personally sold and resold hundreds of Foretravels I much preferred stock for the year and model as equipped.
Versus a potential buyer telling me "why did they do that? I was looking for a stock coach.
At this point and dollar amount custom mods probably will make little difference in a sale or sale price.
But you never know. Half the reason we bought the Barks traded in coach was that it was original. No holes. No removed equipment. We used to be skiers and dry campers times hundreds of days,
As equipped this was a true 4 season dry camp coach. Sold
My RM 7832 with its separate compressor is a rare unit. Thick tube coating so the fire hazard is less and with the added internal air circulation fan that was finally made we have the option to lower the coaches power consumption by a large factor on propane.
If we had hooked up enough solar we could plug in the electric side of the refer into the inverter outlet in the refers vent opening and run the 460 watt electric electric elements off the inverter and batteries and solar. Zero propane used.
Yes my home Samsung is a bigger more temp constant nice residential refer. But if I really needed to reduce my consumesbles in a true emergency I could not eliminate the amp hours used by the residential unit.
Not most owners needs or concerns. But as equipped these were dry camp low consumption RV's. Not park models.
Most here travel pole to pole, god bless
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: stevec22 on May 31, 2020, 11:14:09 pm
Fred, I can't really tell you about the 12 volt system. I considered it and decided that I was going to stay with the propane system.
I had JC refrigeration install it and after 6 months in the coach I am happy.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: bbeane on June 01, 2020, 01:00:41 am
I had JC refridgeration replace the cooling unit on ours 3 years ago all is great. Like steve 22 I chose to go with gas electric as we boondock alot. I did look at the 12 volt conversion while I was at JC, beats the 120V deal as you don't have to deal with the inverter efficiency loss issues
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on June 01, 2020, 12:14:00 pm
Fred, if you want to do away with the LP cooling and keep the existing refrig then a 12v retrofit choice is probably a good one. It will consume more power, around 120 amps per day. Adding solar will help with the addition load recovery. During an overnight at a Walmart in the mid-winter will use upwards of 2000 watts with heating and lights. That is close to 160 amp hrs, 20% of your battery capacity or more.
If you want to use a 120v version then a new small PSW inverter will be more efficient and use much less power to just be on. This option with a small inverter will use about 12% more battery power.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Ted & Karen on June 01, 2020, 12:32:49 pm
Fred- I had the 12 volt conversion done in our coach and it worked fine, for a while. After a few months of full timing with it we were having trouble keeping the temps correct as we traveled to different areas, thus different ambient temps. I found that if we turned the control to max cool the compressor worked great but the freezer was not cooling while the refrigerator was down to the 20's. Not good so we scraped it and went with residential ( my posts on this conversion in 2019 at MOT should still be on the forum).
The concept is good and I think the issue with our unit was perhaps a damaged box ( it is a 2001 and third cooling unit in 10 years). Do what makes your wife happy and then you will be happy. As long as your box is not damaged you should have good results.
Best of luck ^.^d
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: TGordon on June 01, 2020, 02:05:20 pm
If you want to use a 120v version then a new small PSW inverter will be more efficient and use much less power to just be on. This option with a small inverter will use about 12% more battery power.
Roger, PSW inverter?
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: ohsonew on June 01, 2020, 02:19:45 pm
Pure Sine Wave inverter. Necessary for a residential fridge.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Caflashbob on June 01, 2020, 03:07:13 pm
There are no charts showing that a smaller inverter is more efficient under a higher load vs a larger unit at a lower percentage of its capacity.
I asked Victron in Europe for any efficiency charts on their various models and was told that no such charts exist.
Being as they quote an efficiency chart showing a number they obviously have tested their equipment.
Magnum has the only chart I could find with efficiency info. It shows on it 12 volt that it's efficiency drops as the higher percentage loads are applied.
So while it possible that a small PSW inverter can be an advantage their is no charts or tests to verify this.
If there are such charts I would love to see them?
Adding additional wiring for a PSW consumes power by the foot and most would not think to run 4/0 cabling for a small load yet that is the lowest power consumption per foot available.
Better to run a 24/48 volt system for higher efficiency.
But the step down transformer consumes power. No free lunch.
Most efficient for a low to medium load is probably the specifically designed for light intermittent loads would be the Victron 3000 multi pass in my research.
That being said I am guessing their higher efficiency is at the projected loads.
No way to verify this.
My non engineering test IF I had a small PSW inverter already installed would be to turn it on and heat gun the inverter and the wiring. If it warms up it's consuming power.
I bet the bigger multipass shows very little heating at a lighter load like a residential refer.
I personally wish that a dedicated smaller inverter with its extra wiring being optimized for draws would save power.
Possible it does help. Just no info.
Please show how this helps? The idle draw current may help a bit. But if the efficiency is lower maybe be more offset?
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Jack Lewis on June 01, 2020, 03:29:00 pm
......So while it possible that a small PSW inverter can be an advantage their is no charts or tests to verify this.
If there are such charts I would love to see them?......
I agree with you Bob, no easy answer. For someone desiring to know, the following video gives them a path. https://youtu.be/KvXzuYqSIyE
Previously I have watched Will Prowse YouTube video of portable electric generators, with him testing their converter efficiency. I'll post one if I can find again.
It may have been the following. https://youtu.be/xjl3s1CdYII
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: bdale on June 01, 2020, 04:02:30 pm
Idle current draw is the big difference between the large vs small inverter options. Talking in round numbers, if my magnum 2812 draws 5 amps just to keep it turned on, and my dedicated fridge inverter draws 1 amp, that's 4 amps that I'm saving while only running the fridge inverter....which is the case 90% of my day & night while dry camping. It made a big difference before adding solar, and is still significant after solar.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 01, 2020, 04:57:20 pm
I just installed my Edecoa 1500 watt pure sine wave inverter. I ordered it direct from China for about $125 delivered. It is the same as the model on Amazon with the exception of no USB ports. Nice remote, dead silent, runs microwave over twice as fast and will start a compressor. Note that the YouTube review and load test does not have the later panel with the current draw and display that mine does. Glad to post photos. No load is about .65 amps. Review shows the ocilloscope waveform. I have a ocilloscope adapter for my Galaxy Tab S, S2 ordered and will post the pattern when it arrives. I removed the power hog Taytronics inverter. The Edecoa weighs about 10 percent of the old one and starts my compressor where the Taytronics would not. https://www.amazon.com/EDECOA-Inverter-Converter-Remote-Controller/dp/B0823K6MLQ/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=edecoa+1500+watt+sine+wave&qid=1591043879&sr=8-1
Here is the review and load test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2fb49YWzMo&t=340s
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on June 01, 2020, 07:32:08 pm
My Victron Phoenix inverter is 91% efficient and uses 7 watts to be on. That is just over 0.5 amps at 12.6v. My Victron Multiplus inverter/charger is 93% efficient and uses 15 watts to be on.
Easy to find the specs if you want to. The discussion in post #54 is the poster's often repeated bias.
So if your refrigerator with a 120v conversion uses an average of 55 watts per hour then power from the battery through the Phoenix inverter will be 55/0.91 + 7 = or an average of 67 watts per hour. If the 12v version also uses an average of 55 watts per hour the 120v solution will use 22% more power than the 12v solution. Some times your refrigerator will use very little power. When it is running it will use about twice the average.
The only way to know is to add monitoring to measure the power used going into the 12v version or going into the inverter powering the 120v version. How you use the refrigerator, the temperatures you set it at, how often you open and close the door, how well tour door seals work, how warm it is in your coach, which side your refrigerator is on relative to the dominant sun and much more. It is complex. Using a smaller inverter, installed properly will use a significant amount less power over the day just to be oncompared to a bigger one. If you are plugged in most of the time it probably doesn't matter.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Journey, Roam, Explore on June 01, 2020, 07:40:02 pm
The only advantage of a 24 or 48 volt system is the reduction in wire size required. Doesn't really make sense on a 36 to 40 ft coach. Unless you're building from scratch. And then as you said you have to have 24 to 12 volt converters, which themselves use power.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Caflashbob on June 01, 2020, 07:53:29 pm
Ok I will bite. At what exact output power was the quoted efficiency?
All other inverters have a roll off at higher loads. Victron denies having the info. I asked.
24 volt stuff has much higher efficiency that 12 volt. 48 volt better yet.
Show me the chart showing the efficiency please?
I will post the magnum chart.
Show me a chart.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Caflashbob on June 01, 2020, 08:03:45 pm
Bdale here is your magnum info.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: master2301 on June 01, 2020, 08:07:53 pm
Looks like the topic has ceased on the 12 volt refrigerator conversion and is now about Pure Sine Wave inverter and efficiency. Should probably be split at reply 50 to new topic if discussion will get more technical. Thoughts?
Edit Ted, thanks for completing the loop for the conversion and resulting decision to residential fridge.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Caflashbob on June 01, 2020, 08:15:30 pm
The Magnum has the ability to be set to the amount of load that it takes to turn it on.
It can also be set to turn off totally then start searching after a preset adjustable interval. Search mode is 8 watts.
Idle current is 30 watts. 30 divided by 12 volts is less than 3 amps.
That's why your ms2812 has the ability to turn itself off then come back on to see if it's needed.
Plus the turn on load is adjustable. In other words it can stay off until the refers call for power versus radio face plates or other tiny loads.
If you have a Samsung refer my understanding is that it is never "off" compressor varies speed instead. So no idle load.
Victron went to a round transformer versus dual "d" shaped much physically heavier designs designs optimized for comtinoius heavy loads before derating.
Victron s tech paper mentions they changed their design to increase their efficiency as their primary market used their inverters for short times and medium loads in fairly cool weather(boats?)
They used to have dual transformers like the rest of the industry. 52-55 pound units versus 40...
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: craneman on June 01, 2020, 09:05:21 pm
Bob what do you have to say about my Xantrex SW 3012 @77 l;bs? Does the weight make it better?
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Caflashbob on June 01, 2020, 10:11:57 pm
Heavy duty hybrid design. Obviously designed for continuous heavy loads. 150 amp charger. Will charge deeply discharged batteries.
Yes I think the heavier unit will have bigger transformers with increased ability to output heavier loads before derating.
I hope no one misunderstands me. For specific uses the Victron is a finely tuned piece of equipment. Intentionally designed for max efficiency at medium loads
If you were drawing heavy loads and/or hot areas all the time other units may be better for those uses.
Your xantrex can probably run roof air(s) no problem for long runs.
Made for it. At least it's capable of it.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: DavidS on June 02, 2020, 01:21:06 am
I run my air off my victron.. with solar it does great.. have also ran both airs but it doesnt like it. When running the air it is pulling a load.. I typically do not worry about what is on or off when I am in the motorhome.. the victron holds its own.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Jack Lewis on June 02, 2020, 04:32:22 am
I run my air off my victron.. with solar it does great.. have also ran both airs but it doesnt like it. When running the air it is pulling a load.. I typically do not worry about what is on or off when I am in the motorhome.. the victron holds its own.
David the Victron, with your 1200 amp, 15,000 kwh of lithium gives you an amazing system. This has to be the largest lithium bank on this forum. Congrats on not having to worry about what is on or off.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Journey, Roam, Explore on June 02, 2020, 10:10:53 am
I toocan run my front air off the victron and solar without issues for around 6 hours.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: pthurman48 on June 02, 2020, 12:12:02 pm
On my 95 U240, i have 2 8Ds for the coach, 2 optimu red tops for starting. I do very little dry camping, maybe overnight at walmart. My orig. RM4804 Dometic Frig. works on both ac and propane. Over night on AC in the am frig. will be 28-30 deg. During the day on the road running on propane it does not do as well. So I bought a small inverter and put it in the back of the frig. compartment. The 12v supply is already at the frig. and now the frig will run on 120 vac all the time. At home I have shore power, on the road the 160amp engine alternator charges all batteries, and in the RV park I have shore power. If I over night in a walmart parking lot, how will my 2 8Ds do? If I have to, the onan will handle the job. What do I need to look out for? What do ya'll think about the idea?
Pat,
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: wolfe10 on June 02, 2020, 12:47:31 pm
Pat,
Particularly when parked the refrigerator should work just fine on propane.
Have you done the "burner area tune-up"?
If so and it still doesn't work properly, check propane pressure or just replace the propane regulator if old. They are under $25.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Don & Tys on June 02, 2020, 12:48:14 pm
Fred, I installed a Vitrifrigo 12V/120VAC marine refrigerator so I can't speak to the conversion of your OEM unit. It uses the Danfoss compressor like the conversion however, and in our 99' U270, there was adequate 10 gauge 12V wiring already present. The 12V positive feed is connected to a 30 AMP breaker in the storage compartment behind the white fiberglass cover. It was unused in our coach before the change out as we did not have an OEM 3 way fridge. Don
I wanted to ask three follow-up questions regarding the 12v refrigerator conversion.
1) Did the shop have to take the fridge out of the cabinet and out through the front door to do the conversion? 2) Is there already a usable 12v power in the fridge compartment suitable for running the fridge to run on 12v? (We have a 1996 U320) 3) Has anyone taken their coach to JC Refrigeration and had them do the work at the factory?
We are seriously looking at the 12v conversion since our fridge has stopped working. The goal is to switch the fridge to the 12v compressor model, remove the large (and heavy) unnecessary LP tank, add very small LP tank to just run the cook top (the only remaining LP appliance in the U320), and potentially add battery capacity to the 2 batteries that we have now for extended boondocking.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: Siren on June 02, 2020, 02:07:01 pm
OY!!! :facepalm: Y'all exhaust me on your inverter/power conversations. Particularly when the thread was resurrected with questions specifically about the fridge conversion at JC Refrigeration. :headwall:
I wanted to ask three follow-up questions regarding the 12v refrigerator conversion.
1) Did the shop have to take the fridge out of the cabinet and out through the front door to do the conversion? 2) Is there already a usable 12v power in the fridge compartment suitable for running the fridge to run on 12v? (We have a 1996 U320) 3) Has anyone taken their coach to JC Refrigeration and had them do the work at the factory?
We are seriously looking at the 12v conversion since our fridge has stopped working. The goal is to switch the fridge to the 12v compressor model, remove the large (and heavy) unnecessary LP tank, add very small LP tank to just run the cook top (the only remaining LP appliance in the U320), and potentially add battery capacity to the 2 batteries that we have now for extended boondocking.
We can help you with your questions!! b^.^d
1. Yes, JC Refrigereation will take the fridge out of the kitchen, and lay it down on the living room floor. They will take out the old cooling unit, and replace it with whatever you choose before reinstalling the fridge back in the fridge compartment. The fridge itself will never leave the coach. 2. Yes, you have a 12v connection for the fridge already installed. 3. Yes, we had JC Refrigeration do the work for us at their factory....twice. See below.
We are one of the only, if not the only customers of JC Refrigeration that have used BOTH his 120 volt conversion AND his 12v conversion. Like you, our fridge cooling unit died a little over 2 years ago. We had all the choices before us, and knew we wanted to keep the original fridge with the wood paneling. We chose to be one of the very first customers with the 120 volt conversion. That was in installed May 2018. It worked great until about April 2019, when we started having the same problems that Ted & Karen expressed above. We called JR at JC Refrigeration, and he said he would make it right and gave us the option of sending us a new conversion, or we could visit him back at the factory. We drove back to Shipshewana, Indiana, in May 2019, and this time, we had him install a 12v conversion in place of the 120 volt conversion at our request. That worked fine until the fans that JC Refrigeration installed in our fridge went kaput in March 2020. JR mailed us another fridge fan for free, and we just can't seem to get the temps low enough. We are fulltimers, and travel to areas with differing temps and humidity. It works great when the humidity is lower and temps outside aren't above 75.
So to recap our experience, the 120 volt lasted about 11 months, and the 12v worked great for about 10 months, and unfortunately, we are still futzing with it even today.
JR has been fantastic to work with. He has been immediately willing to help us when we alert him to a problem with our fridge. Stand up guy with great customer service. If we were to do this ALLLLL over again, we would choose to have JR replace our original cooling unit with his rebuilt cooling unit, still using propane, and skipping the new technology of 120 volt and 12v conversions. Everyone that has had JR install a rebuilt cooling unit has had outstanding results, and sadly, everyone we know that has gone with his new 12v or 120 volt conversions have had the same issues. I was THRILLED to be the guinea pig for the electric conversions since that would eliminate my fridge fire phobia. HOWEVER, at this point, knowing what I know, I would have JC Refrigeration install a rebuilt cooling unit and continue using propane.
Title: Re: 12 volt refrigerator conversion
Post by: wolfe10 on June 02, 2020, 02:09:41 pm