Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: RetiredGuns on February 23, 2019, 10:08:14 am
Title: Size of Fresh Water Tank
Post by: RetiredGuns on February 23, 2019, 10:08:14 am
So, I had Leaks Galore, in my Fresh Water tank area, and finally found someone to Pull my tank out, and verify that the tank itself was sound, and hoped it was just the old Grey Tubing that was used commonly from 1977, to 1995, the year my FT was made! As said in the Link provided below, that stock was still sold, through 1999, as well? You might even want to check your Coach out through, 2001, or so, as FT may have Stockpiled it, and used it, through those years perhaps? ( Not Verified ). So, it appears it had been determined that Chlorine, Chemically Reacts to the Tubing, and allows tiny cracks to form. That makes sense as we all add Chlorine, routinely so we can sanitize our supply! Polybutylene Plumbing and Pipe Replacement-Polybutylene Lawsuit and Class... (https://www.polybutylenelawsuit.com/)
Upon full Investigation, it ended up with 7 Confirmed Failures in that tubing! When I first saw it, I Immediately Drained the Tank, and used City Supply, only! It did not leak on that leg, so we carried Store Bought water, until I could find someone to repair the lines! I also just filled those gallon jugs a dozen or so, marked XX that we used for Toilet flush water! It seems it was good Insurance to get that repair done! I hate Plumbing, as I usually end up with more leaks than I started with! That being said, it has been a nearly 3 month long ordeal to find someone to do the repairs desperately needed. I called dozens of Plumbers, and equally as many RV Service Centers, until I found one willing to take it to task!
So, the RV Tech, that Pulled the Tank, who had 30 Years experience in the field mentioned that he Never Saw a Tank as huge as the one he pulled out of my Coach! While Specs for most FT Coaches of this era state, that the Fresh Water Supply capacity is 102 Gallons, the 1995C U-320 SE is 115 Gallons by the Book. When the tank was Pulled I saw that it stated 207 Gallon capacity. My question then, has anyone else have this size tank, as well, that they can confirm? Or am I missing something here? As most Custom, add - on's and Deletes are commonly done at the Factory, for FT's, it may be possible I have a Huge capability for water, and won't fill it fully, simply because of the weight involved. The Fuel penalty alone may make it a good idea to maybe 3/4 fill it only? Any Feedback from you Guru's out there would be help in this matter! I will find a Food Grade 55 Gallon plastic drum soon I hope and verify this by filling it up, and Pumping it into that tank. That would solve it, for sure, unless someone out there has an explanation for this, perhaps?
Title: Re: Size of Fresh Water Tank
Post by: Travelin' Man (RIP) on February 23, 2019, 10:15:00 am
Dave Head should know.
Title: Re: Size of Fresh Water Tank
Post by: Woody & Sitka on February 23, 2019, 10:22:20 am
Instead of a 55gal barrel, maybe get one of these to measure the amount of water going into the tank???
Amazon.com : Rainwave RW-9FM LCD Digital Water Flow Meter : Watering... (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007NHS9M4/ref=psdc_553988_t1_B0058EOC5M)
So, I had Leaks Galore, in my Fresh Water tank area, and finally found someone to Pull my tank out, and verify that the tank itself was sound, and hoped it was just the old Grey Tubing that was used commonly from 1977, to 1995, the year my FT was made! As said in the Link provided below, that stock was still sold, through 1999, as well? You might even want to check your Coach out through, 2001, or so, as FT may have Stockpiled it, and used it, through those years perhaps? ( Not Verified ). So, it appears it had been determined that Chlorine, Chemically Reacts to the Tubing, and allows tiny cracks to form. That makes sense as we all add Chlorine, routinely so we can sanitize our supply! Polybutylene Plumbing and Pipe Replacement-Polybutylene Lawsuit and Class... (https://www.polybutylenelawsuit.com/)
Upon full Investigation, it ended up with 7 Confirmed Failures in that tubing! When I first saw it, I Immediately Drained the Tank, and used City Supply, only! It did not leak on that leg, so we carried Store Bought water, until I could find someone to repair the lines! I also just filled those gallon jugs a dozen or so, marked XX that we used for Toilet flush water! It seems it was good Insurance to get that repair done! I hate Plumbing, as I usually end up with more leaks than I started with! That being said, it has been a nearly 3 month long ordeal to find someone to do the repairs desperately needed. I called dozens of Plumbers, and equally as many RV Service Centers, until I found one willing to take it to task!
So, the RV Tech, that Pulled the Tank, who had 30 Years experience in the field mentioned that he Never Saw a Tank as huge as the one he pulled out of my Coach! While Specs for most FT Coaches of this era state, that the Fresh Water Supply capacity is 102 Gallons, the 1995C U-320 SE is 115 Gallons by the Book. When the tank was Pulled I saw that it stated 207 Gallon capacity. My question then, has anyone else have this size tank, as well, that they can confirm? Or am I missing something here? As most Custom, add - on's and Deletes are commonly done at the Factory, for FT's, it may be possible I have a Huge capability for water, and won't fill it fully, simply because of the weight involved. The Fuel penalty alone may make it a good idea to maybe 3/4 fill it only? Any Feedback from you Guru's out there would be help in this matter! I will find a Food Grade 55 Gallon plastic drum soon I hope and verify this by filling it up, and Pumping it into that tank. That would solve it, for sure, unless someone out there has an explanation for this, perhaps?
Title: Re: Size of Fresh Water Tank
Post by: jor on February 23, 2019, 10:23:43 am
My 95 300 had a 102 gallon tank. jor
Title: Re: Size of Fresh Water Tank
Post by: craneman on February 23, 2019, 10:25:15 am
I'll go out on a limb here and guess the 207 W is the manufactures number and the gallon capacity didn't get stamped after U.S. gallons and IMP. gallons
Title: Re: Size of Fresh Water Tank
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on February 23, 2019, 10:28:56 am
If you still have the tank out of the coach, just measure the outside dimensions, and calculate the internal volume. Simple math.
Title: Re: Size of Fresh Water Tank
Post by: craneman on February 23, 2019, 10:30:59 am
He just may? He was the Second owner, though, and may not have known it, as it is Hidden behind the Water Heater, and the Old Metal Tape of the Tank OEM Audit System tank Metalized Tape Sensors. I stripped that off, cleaned it and put two of the 3, 12" Sensors made by SEE-LEVEL Brand, that he provided to me! I put them on a Slant, as directed by others here of 50 Degrees for proper Sensing. I have ordered 3 more as well, as all tanks are 24" tall! I will mount the Monitor to the Left of the Cockpit, near the Allison Transmission Selector. ( Unless anyone has a Better Idea? ) I have purchased a New Nifty Gizmo, to replace the Old AUDIT Brand Monitor! ( I will discuss that, once I install it! )
Title: Re: Size of Fresh Water Tank
Post by: Pamela & Mike on February 23, 2019, 10:39:46 am
The 207W is Elkhart's part number for that tank. It holds about 102 gallons now that could be a little more or less. The last one of those tanks we got were about $1500. So that tank was the standard tank for the Unicoachs when they came out. There are even some of the last Grand Villas that had these tanks. The other water capacity was added by what was in the accumulator tank and water heater.
Mike
Title: Re: Size of Fresh Water Tank
Post by: RetiredGuns on February 23, 2019, 10:41:21 am
If you still have the tank out of the coach, just measure the outside dimensions, and calculate the internal volume. Simple math.
True, but too late for that! I was going to, but he had installed it before I had that opportunity again! I was Chasing down other parts, unfortunately during that whole evolution, and only had time to snap some pics! I think I will call Elkhart Plastics on Monday, to see if they could confirm as well? They are still around, and per their website, they were fairly new to the whole RV Game, when this was made, in 1994?
Title: Re: Size of Fresh Water Tank
Post by: RetiredGuns on February 23, 2019, 10:45:25 am
The 207W is Elkhart's part number for that tank. It holds about 102 gallons now that could be a little more or less. The last one of those tanks we got were about $1500. So that tank was the standard tank for the Unicoachs when they came out. There are even some of the last Grand Villas that had these tanks. The other water capacity was added by what was in the accumulator tank and water heater.
Mike
Thanks! That solves that Mystery, now doesn't it? It was a Curiosity to me when I saw that Number anyway? BTW, that plastic used in the construction of those tanks, is easily Plastic Welded, successfully, and I had my Welder with me, Justin' Case! LOL That $1,700.00, I spent for Labor and Parts was still a Gouge to my wallet, but so is a $30,00.00 Repair I have read here for Failed Undercarriages, due to leaks! That really scared me!
Title: Re: Size of Fresh Water Tank
Post by: craneman on February 23, 2019, 10:54:28 am
But still doable...doesn't have to be precise...just to the nearest gallon or so.
Even so, the above suggested flow meter (thanks to Woody) is probably the more KISS solution.
Just bought one of those. I can use it on many other things around here. Pond, misc. containers etc.
Title: Re: Size of Fresh Water Tank
Post by: RetiredGuns on February 23, 2019, 10:59:35 am
Also, the Tech did not add a Winterization System, behind the 10 Gallon Water Heater, that I requested, ( I have the Webasto Delete in my coach from OEM) and find a true PITA to have to take the Water Heater out, every time to winterize it properly! Guess I will just have to be a Permanent SnowBird, from now on, so I skip that dreaded chore, LOL
And another issue I had, since I did not use the tank, these past few months, is a Backflow Preventer was not installed! So, I put the Water System, through it's paces, the evening after the repairs, and found I had Very Hot Water on my Cold Water side! Seems that I would have been heating that huge tank of Fresh water, without it! Funny, that when I flushed the Toilet, Steam arose from the Bowl. They made a Joke that they were just gonna add a Bidet, LOL. My retort was they already burned my Butt with the Bill! And taking a Shower with Tank water was quite the Chore as well, as you could NOT regulate the Temp at all! Jumping in and out from under the Shower Head was Comical, to say the least! Either you chose being Burned, or Frozen, no in-between! What a SAGA the whole thing was! The Backflow Preventer, that was NOT in the system, evidently caused this! Understand since I purchased the coach, I rarely used tank water, anyway? Now, if I can ONLY figure out how to eliminate the Constant On-Off of the water pump, causing Water Surge Shifts every 4 seconds or so, I'll be Happy! The Tech said that is Normal???? Any feedback there would be appreciated?
Title: Re: Size of Fresh Water Tank
Post by: Pamela & Mike on February 23, 2019, 11:01:44 am
I think I still have a hard copy of the Elkhart print for that tank around here somewhere. Now day's it is most likely on there website along with the there other tanks that they rotomold. Never had an opportunity to need any other one of there tanks. Due to the cost some have found it cheaper to have a tank built at a local welding shop. I will see if I can find the pics. here on the Forum of this. The tanks with the "foot" were prone to cracks in the foot area, and this tank (207) is the one that we replced those tanks with. Doing that cost them about 8 or so gallons.
One other thought is, with the material make up you can add a new threaded boss by spin welding it into place.
Mike
Title: Re: Size of Fresh Water Tank
Post by: juicesqueezer on February 23, 2019, 11:09:23 am
That $1,700.00, I spent for Labor and Parts was still a Gouge to my wallet, but so is a $30,00.00 Repair I have read here for Failed Undercarriages, due to leaks! That really scared me!
Tom, I can see right now, when we hit the road again, I will still be in the plumbing, flooring and remoldel business. I can't believe the prices some charge for their work. Of course I have no idea how long that plumber was on the job, but that seems quite high to me. Hanging out my shingle soon!
Title: Re: Size of Fresh Water Tank
Post by: AC7880 on February 23, 2019, 11:18:03 am
Now, if I can ONLY figure out how to eliminate the Constant On-Off of the water pump, causing Water Surge Shifts every 4 seconds or so, I'll be Happy! The Tech said that is Normal???? Any feedback there would be appreciated?
vsd rv water pump - Bing (https://www.bing.com/search?q=vsd+rv+water+pump&form=EDGNTT&qs=PF&cvid=2f5a1673ffc647d5ac3cdfb3dd7b3462&cc=US&setlang=en-US&elv=AY3%21uAY7tbNNZGZ2yiGNjfPgaqz6FVYLTMq*0RthwySgi7p6fEJjzu%21HHSRCCxoXGdrvjb9w9I5sJI7Sk59U3QODbQr3Kk7oxduK40UKHv0r&PC=DCTS)
And: How To Pick The Best RV Water Pump For Your RV - RVshare.com (https://rvshare.com/blog/rv_water_pump/)
Title: Re: Size of Fresh Water Tank
Post by: wolfe10 on February 23, 2019, 11:20:25 am
Have you verified that your ACCUMULATOR is OK and has correct PSI?
Title: Re: Size of Fresh Water Tank
Post by: RetiredGuns on February 23, 2019, 11:55:12 am
Have you verified that your ACCUMULATOR is OK and has correct PSI?
Huh??? I cannot find ANY Accumulator Tank, whatsoever? Would it be under the Water Heater, perhaps? Makes sense there should be one, though? Just how would you go about Winterizing that Component, then? Another trip to a Plumber, I see? :'(
Tom, I can see right now, when we hit the road again, I will still be in the plumbing, flooring and remoldel business. I can't believe the prices some charge for their work. Of course I have no idea how long that plumber was on the job, but that seems quite high to me. Hanging out my shingle soon!
You Certainly should! The Price is $150.00 an hour here in Pismo Beach CA. at the "Sky River RV" Facility! I was shocked, but this is High Rent District, for sure! It's about $80.00 an hour, back in PA. but NOBODY wanted to touch it! The stories I could tell you about the truly Inept, and Totally Worthless Techs, I have had, on this trip alone! I was charged, for other issues, where they were Simply to Diagnose, and I ended up paying for no real cure on an Electrical Issue I still have! I am approaching nearly $1,000.00, in expenses on that with 3 Techs who simply said "Dunno" after Billing me! The last one gave me an "Estimate" of $3K to make a whole new run! NOPE! Not doing that! Might just have Nac look into it? Frustrating, and Futile it seems?
vsd rv water pump - Bing (https://www.bing.com/search?q=vsd+rv+water+pump&form=EDGNTT&qs=PF&cvid=2f5a1673ffc647d5ac3cdfb3dd7b3462&cc=US&setlang=en-US&elv=AY3%21uAY7tbNNZGZ2yiGNjfPgaqz6FVYLTMq*0RthwySgi7p6fEJjzu%21HHSRCCxoXGdrvjb9w9I5sJI7Sk59U3QODbQr3Kk7oxduK40UKHv0r&PC=DCTS)
And: How To Pick The Best RV Water Pump For Your RV - RVshare.com (https://rvshare.com/blog/rv_water_pump/)
Supposedly this IS a new Pump, and I still have an old Working Pump, from Dave Head the PO!
Title: Re: Size of Fresh Water Tank
Post by: Barry & Cindy on February 23, 2019, 12:17:09 pm
Our tank gauges never worked, and with the tank being translucent, we decided a visual look 'inside' the tank could help. It worked so well, we just kept using it.
We measured the tank in 2" increments to compensate for increased volumes from bottom to top. And made an external label that continues to be our guide. With a florescent lamp on top of tank, we can see with our eyes the water level.
Found our original spreadsheets and they are attached.
Title: Re: Size of Fresh Water Tank
Post by: juicesqueezer on February 23, 2019, 12:27:13 pm
Huh??? I cannot find ANY Accumulator Tank, whatsoever? Would it be under the Water Heater, perhaps? Makes sense there should be one, though? Just how would you go about Winterizing that Component, then? Another trip to a Plumber, I see? :'( You Certainly should! The Price is $150.00 an hour here in Pismo Beach CA. at the "Sky River RV" Facility! I was shocked, but this is High Rent District, for sure! It's about $80.00 an hour, back in PA. but NOBODY wanted to touch it! The stories I could tell you about the truly Inept, and Totally Worthless Techs, I have had, on this trip alone!
Ouch! Well, just finshed a small bathroom remodel with new flooring, commode, vanity and sink with under the cabinet new plumbing and new base board for $300 labor. It's nice when you hear the customer say, "I sure thought it would be more than that", when writing the check.
Title: Re: Size of Fresh Water Tank
Post by: RetiredGuns on February 23, 2019, 12:29:54 pm
I think I still have a hard copy of the Elkhart print for that tank around here somewhere. Now day's it is most likely on there website along with the there other tanks that they rotomold. Never had an opportunity to need any other one of there tanks. Due to the cost some have found it cheaper to have a tank built at a local welding shop. I will see if I can find the pics. here on the Forum of this. The tanks with the "foot" were prone to cracks in the foot area, and this tank (207) is the one that we replced those tanks with. Doing that cost them about 8 or so gallons.
One other thought is, with the material make up you can add a new threaded boss by spin welding it into place.
Mike
The Tank and Fittings that connect to it, were found to be just fine! If the tank fails at that "Foot", as you say, it might be a Good idea to simply ensure that the Mid-Tank Strap is tight, and that ALL water is removed for Winterization purposes. due to Freezing in that "Pocket" ? Either issue may be the Culprit, I'd say? I can Weld Aluminum, pretty good, with the Exception of the "In-Out", Threaded "Bungs" needed, my Brother is a Tank Expert, if I ever go that route? Aluminum isn't the best option though for Fresh Water, due to Contamination, and Chemical Reactions, I'd say? I could be wrong, but I'd spring for a New Plastic one if needed! I have been Welding Roto-Molded, Linear Poly Kayaks for decades, as I am pretty rough on all my Yaks I own! (6 Total). I will be careful to Drain every drop I can, as I did to winterize, last year! Then I added the Antifreeze of course!
Title: Re: Size of Fresh Water Tank
Post by: Tom Lang on February 23, 2019, 03:37:31 pm
Fresh water capacity ................................... 112 gal. REALLY?
A couple of years ago I bought one of those digital in-line water flow meters.
Amazon.com : Rainwave RW-9FM LCD Digital Water Flow Meter : Watering...
It reliably measures 85 gallons from a completely drained fresh water tank to overflow. This has always bothered me. Where did the other 27 gallons go? My propane water heater only holds 10 gallons and I don't have an accumulator.
If I really want to completely fill the water tank, I start from empty and stop it at 82 gallons. This is better than using the overflow method. Being a U295, it doesn't have an automatic electric fill valve, although I suppose one could be added.
Title: Re: Size of Fresh Water Tank
Post by: Pamela & Mike on February 23, 2019, 05:22:47 pm
Tom (Retired Guns),
Here is the thread that talks about the tank with the foot. Yours don't have the foot. The new tank was made similar to the 207w tanks. 05 Bulkhead and Water Tank Leak (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=30909.msg270046#msg270046)
Mike
Title: Re: Size of Fresh Water Tank
Post by: Chris m lang on February 23, 2019, 07:34:04 pm
Mike. do you happen to know what gauge of stainless they used and any idea what weight difference was? Thanks Chris
Title: Re: Size of Fresh Water Tank
Post by: Pamela & Mike on February 23, 2019, 08:03:20 pm
1. do you happen to know what gauge of stainless they used 2. any idea what weight difference was?
Chris, 1. I'm not sure what thickness they use on the tank in this thread. 1a. .063 (16G) works just fine. It is thick enough to hold the baffle welds and not flex to the point of breaking the baffles loose. 1b. If you tackle this make sure you TIG weld everything. 2. No. But the stainless is quite a bit heavier
Mike
Mike
Title: Re: Size of Fresh Water Tank
Post by: Ecurb on February 23, 2019, 08:27:41 pm
My coach does not have the accumulator since it had a variable speed water pump. Instead of cutting on and off it just slows down to the necessary speed/volume. Maybe it had a variable speed pump at one time or another.
Title: Re: Size of Fresh Water Tank
Post by: RetiredGuns on February 24, 2019, 05:53:55 am
Here is the thread that talks about the tank with the foot. Yours don't have the foot. The new tank was made similar to the 207w tanks. 05 Bulkhead and Water Tank Leak (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=30909.msg270046#msg270046)
Mike
Yes, the one on the Left, is what I have in the Plastic Version! A Stainless Tank? The weight penalty alone would be of caution for me, anyway? I do like the Plastic, and it is Easily Repairable, except where the Bung Fittings are? That might require a replacement, or at the very least, a new location perhaps, with a Compression Fitting one? A crack would be MY Forte'! I have never failed to repair a Kayak successfully! Thanks for showing me the differences though!
Title: Re: Size of Fresh Water Tank
Post by: RetiredGuns on February 24, 2019, 05:58:26 am
My coach does not have the accumulator since it had a variable speed water pump. Instead of cutting on and off it just slows down to the necessary speed/volume. Maybe it had a variable speed pump at one time or another.
That has been suggested, and would be a better option then an accumulator tank, possibly! It is an Annoying Surge, for sure! I will deal with it eventually, right now, I am in the WHACK- A - MOLE stage of fixing issues, I get one thing fixed, and the next issue pops up! :)) It's ALL good, I guess, it was MY fault for letting the Coach sit for over a year, without use! I had other matters on my plate! Things tend to go wrong faster, without use, it seems?
Title: Re: Size of Fresh Water Tank
Post by: RetiredGuns on February 24, 2019, 06:22:45 am
Fresh water capacity ................................... 112 gal. REALLY?
A couple of years ago I bought one of those digital in-line water flow meters.
Amazon.com : Rainwave RW-9FM LCD Digital Water Flow Meter : Watering...
It reliably measures 85 gallons from a completely drained fresh water tank to overflow. This has always bothered me. Where did the other 27 gallons go? My propane water heater only holds 10 gallons and I don't have an accumulator.
If I really want to completely fill the water tank, I start from empty and stop it at 82 gallons. This is better than using the overflow method. Being a U295, it doesn't have an automatic electric fill valve, although I suppose one could be added.
I have a Rocker switch in the Kitchen, the Bathroom and City water Fill Panel! I also have to Manually open a Ball Valve on the Back Wall, under the Water Heater!!! It does not "STOP" water from overflowing, but that would be a nice option to have, as well? Again, I have not measured the amount of my true water capacity, as yet? The Overflow Hose (Blue and White Stripe Hose, that looks like a radiator hose of sorts) as Cut off previously, to use as a Manual Fill port. That was replaced, and I asked but didn't get the requested Fill Port, in the Middle section with a "T", installed, and capped, for such purposes! It now is plumbed back into the OEM fitting in front of the Wheel Well, area! I'd like to install a rubber "Flap", so that road debris does not contaminate the Fresh water!!!! Or a oversized piece of a Sponge, that is on a Lanyard, and when it is doing it's job as an Overflow, would get "Kicked Out' of the hose, by water, and I end up shoving it back into that hose, with a drop or three of Chlorine, perhaps?