Just wondering if anyone can give a ballpark figure for having a shop do an inframe rebuild of the Cummins 8.3 in a '96 320U? Or how much it would cost to have a used engine installed in same?
Thanks,
Scott in Snowflake AZ
U320's have m11 Cummins
$20-$30K
P
By the time you do the engine rebuild, radiator and cooling fan rebuild, charge air cooler check, and so one, likely way more than a he coach is worth. At some point it's reality.
At the point of an engine and related part replacement you will NEVER get your money back.
If you don't already own the coach and are thinking of buying it as is, If the coach were perfect and needed nothing other then the engine rebuild, and somebody GAVE it to you for free, you would still probably never see your money come back to your wallet.
The only way to come out ahead is if you could do ALL the work yourself.
People are usually suspicious when a seller mentions that the engine was re-built.
Determine which engine it is,320 will have the M-11,does it need a rebuild?Big difference between the M-11 and 8.3.I agree with
the above,unless you can do it yourself you might as well look at another coach.
What are the symptoms that make you say it needs a rebuild?
It would probably cost close to $30k to replace the M11 engine in a U320. If the rest of the coach is absolutely perfect then it might be a worthwhile project, but there could certainly be a number of financial risks involved.
Did my own, 3126 Cat...Cost me 4K, Probably in the same price range.
Someone on here had a new Cat 3126 installed, cost 32K. 1 year parts, no labor warranty.
And overall yours is probably a better job.That's give or take what I figure would cost me on the 12valve 8.3 plus maybe the cost of a new radiator,would love to do one just for the heck of it.The higher the cost for a shop to do it the better for me ,give me more incentive.
A little off subject but if I was to ever attempt an overhaul I would contact local schools and see if they had a apprentice type I
could hire to help.
Learn how to do it yourself, take a few weeks or even a month or so and have a better job than most shops with do. Then you only have a fraction of the $20-$30K. Used engines might be less expensive and somewhere around the $20K but...
Pierce
All U320's had the M11 Cummins 400 or 450. If a '96, it should be the 400. Unless the coach is perfect, read messages above! Even then I would crunch the numbers and add 15 to 20 percent for good measure!
If you're driving a 23 year old coach as an investment, maybe you need a new investment advisor.
In-frame? Ummmm No.
If you have the basic knowledge and skill set to disassemble and re-assemble an engine, remember that the fussy stuff will be done by the machine shop. Everything else is tedious detail, removing, cleaning and replacing. Don't forget about the clean dust free work area.
BTDT.
Never worked on a M-11,looks to me that a 8.3 could be done in frame but would do it like Grace did,have overhauled engines
much bigger then these on locations in South TX,dust and sand is a concern just have to keep things clean,it can be done.
Every job is different but the only thing a machine shop would be needed for is rebuilding the head if it needed it,again have overhauled many an engine never using a machine shop.
As others have said, what is the issues with the motor? Worn out, I doubt that in a motorhome, unless it wasn't properly maintained. Has it been run hot, dusted? The point is an inframe is usually more of a freshen it deal, not a fix for a damaged motor. Such damage will require some machine shop service. As well as things like turbos, injectors, radiator and fans, and on and on you go. Read $$$$.
Most folk don't have the tools, space, time, or knowledge to tackle this kind of job. But by the same token 30k to rebuild a 6 cyl diesel is just nuts, but that's the way it is these days.
As a retired 'wrench', I'd like to know WHAT makes the OP think it needs a overhaul ?
According to my cummins guy it would be about 15K plus that is in Arkansas, parts are between 4K and 5K. If mine died I would do it myself, can't be much different than wet sleeve farm tractors that I have done. I don't know about quality but I have noticed that you can get a full overhaul kit for M11 in frame for less than 3.5k on line. Unless I had someone that could verify quality I would probably get parts from Cummins. Just me.
Chris
I have bought my engine kits for the International and Cat from AG kits never had a problem
https://www.agkits.com/cummins-m11-ism-engine-inframe-rebuild-kit---electronic-engine.aspx?recrawl&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIhtjWofyT4QIV0f_jBx39Egh_EAQYASABEgJuQfD_BwE#.XJPmV9VKh0w
Aren't those engines good for 500,000 miles or more if maintained?
And the planets are all aligned with the sun and moon.
They are in everyday use, but time will get to them as well. Lots of o-rings and Iots of other gaskets and seals to deteriorate and cause problems.
8-10K for a good low miles Cat or Cummins. I shopped a lot, and considered switching to Cummins. Love my Cat now. Once I saw it apart, it's such a heavy built simple industrial motor inside.
Lots of in frame rebuild kits from $1800 to $2400: cummins m11 rebuild kit | eBay (https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=cummins+m11+rebuild+kit&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&rmvSB=true&_osacat=0&_odkw=132521456791+)
Some good used engines out there but the shop labor to install is really high in most places.
Good chance the engine will need a new head if it dropped a valve. Something else to consider.
Turbos are cheap to overhaul.
P
M11 is at least a million mile motor
Time for the 80's dweeb to chime back in.
Give or take 800, 000 miles...LOL
Shop foreman/owner of the Cummins service center is the first one among many to mention the million.
CUMMINS M11 PLUS ENGINE WITH JAKE BRAKE! - 370 HP - 34934413 - 1998 NO ELD!... (https://www.ebay.com/itm/CUMMINS-M11-PLUS-ENGINE-WITH-JAKE-BRAKE-370-HP-34934413-1998-NO-ELD/283420728226?hash=item41fd311ba2:g:OpgAAOSwf-Bcjozn)
IFFFFF it's been taken proper care of.
They all say that, till it breaks. That's why they are in business.
They are an internal combustion engine, made with lots of moving metal parts that wear, bend, warp, and break,they all have issues.
Cats break rings, Cummins crack blocks and heads.
;)
I was going to add that Bruce, you beat me to it.....And highway miles, not lot rot
CW
Read a lot of commercial truckers report on m11's. Most mentioned the engine still in brake in up to 150k miles in a 18 wheeler.
I understand m11's are considered one of the prime engines for "rollers" where a new chassis and cab are built then retrofit with a earlier smog standard engine without DEF and EGR.
Cats had dissimilar metal corrosion issues I remember.
Our higher powered than most truck/commercial rigs m11's have sodium filled exhaust valves and a supported lower block/crank setup. Whatever that is.
Never seen our high hp/torque engines in the used markets.
Engine with more power was more expensive from Cummins
While it's not a large difference I think since I started driving this coach and freeing up the exhaust system the engine revs better and climbs grades better.
Every used diesel coach I ever drove had been babied by the owners.
Versus drive it like you stole it which is partially how I drive this.
At 100k when we got our coach I commented it was a dog.
Lots of things wrong and mods needed.
Much better drive now.
Most are afraid the use what they paid for.
Almost every owner was paranoid they would hurt it.
I can count on one hand the problem diesels I have seen out of many many coaches.
Certainly not cheap.
https://rvchassisparts.visonerv.com/cgi-bin/md/M121047/s1.pl?
Engine new was well over $20k as far as I know. P,us $3k+ back to Cummins for the warranty contribution by the selling dealer for 450hp. Weird system.
I understand the warranty contribution is less money for the lower power rated versions.
Cummins Dealer owner mentioned this.
I think the 02 has EGR. Some Internet posts about recurring EGR issues.
Our 97 has neither EGR or DEF.
Very desirable motor. Excellent reputation in the heavy duty class engines.
It's at the bottom end of the power curve on heavy duty class engines.
DOH! Unit is a U295, not the U320. Did they come with the 8.3?
Thanks for all the input, folks!
The story is after a blown original engine, owner put in a "new" 8.3, which almost immediately developed a rod knock. His wife passed, and he sold it. Now that buyer is trying to sell it for I think $13k. I highly doubt he paid anywhere near that much, and he'll likely end up selling for less, unless he has room, and time, and the heart, to part it out - $5000 in new tires, diesel genset, for starters, and those ever-so valuable 1990s-era bay doors, who doesn't want spares of those, just in case?
Why did the original engine die? Good question.
I've heard that many times, when a diesel pusher engine dies, it's because it overheated. Occasionally, the hapless owner gets the engine replaced, and immediately destroys the new engine by overheating it (because the radiator or whatever was still plugged, etc.)
But an engine knocking? Sounds extremely suspicious, no? And in a "new" engine, whatever that means.
This isn't a project I would be able to do on my own, actually wondered if it would be feasible to find a shop in Missouri that could repair it or swap in a used engine. I could find a used RV engine from a wreck and drive it there in my Sprinter. I suspect the work required to swap an RV engine in would be less than a truck engine (as seen for sale on eBay,) because swapping usually requires so many changes, removing the front structure and maybe the rear structure, lots of work. Much less of that if the RVs were similar. Or if it really is nearly "new", repair might not be as expensive, getting in there and replacing rod bearings. Sounds like a huge gamble, however.
Not likely to happen, I guess.
I'd love to get a Foretravel, but I may end up with a Country Coach or Beaver. Waiting on some estate money, so all just thinking right now. Looking for a coach with no slides, so probably 1990s.
Scott in Snowflake AZ
Sad story, all around; all of our worst nightmares! I'd keep looking for a FT. Granted, Beavers and CCs were nice, but they are not in business any more, FT IS! I may be biased (o.k., I AM), but I'd be looking for a '93/'94'95 36' U-240 coach. I think it was one of the best eras FT had, for many reasons I'd be glad to explain if you ever get down to Ajo. We'll be up in Payson in July and August.
The 5K in tires sounds a fishy to me,how is this guy trying to sell it?
"Why did the original engine die? Good question.
I've heard that many times, when a diesel pusher engine dies, it's because it overheated. Occasionally, the hapless owner gets the engine replaced, and immediately destroys the new engine by overheating it (because the radiator or whatever was still plugged, etc.)"
Makes me shudder to think where somebody's head is placed if they paid the price to replace the engine because it overheated then never repaired the overheating issue and "lunched" the new motor.
I can only imagine the condition the rest of the coach is in.
Given the engine screw-ups, maybe he put too much/too little air in the first set, and is trying to recoup the price of another set?
Later coaches have electronic engines and have warning protection that includes ECU shutdown if they start to overheat. Dropping a valve will require an overhaul. Some engines will have camshaft wear, over revving, damage, etc. R&R on RVs is much more difficult than a big rig. Many truck shops won't touch an RV.
You hear a lot of talk about what causes this or that. Most is just that, a lot of talk.
Pierce
Since the original subject is kinda lost, let me try to get back to some thoughts on it. I notice that some of the posts indicate that doing a complete overhaul or replacement is expensive since the investment cannot be realized at resale. Although we have sold our coach and didn't get what we'd have liked we still got 15 years use out of it and made many, many new friends and saw a bunch of the USA through that windshield as well as using it as a home base for short trips while camping. Purchase price minus selling price in real dollars didn't add up but enjoyment and lasting friendships far outweigh the "loss" at selling. They don't appreciate but we certainly did appreciate having our FT and have moved on.
Check with your tax person, if you sell your coach for less than you paid for it plus any capital improvements the difference is a capital loss for tax purposes. You coach is a second home as far as the IRS is concerned.
Like Larry said, all of our experiences and all of our new friends have long since paid for the coach maybe not in dollars but in quality of life.
I completely agree with Larry. We carefully purchased exactly the coach we wanted at a very fair price. We have used it for 6+ years and have put relatively little additional money into it. The money we have added has gone to reasonable upgrades and nornal maintenance. We know that we wiil "lose" money when we finally sell it (hopefully many years from now) but we have already received our money's worth in terms of pleasant experiences. Motorhoming is definitely our lifestyle of choice!
I just replaced the red top Cummins in a 1997 Peterbilt with another red top that my local diesel mechanic found. It had about 220,000 miles on it. The cost to replace was $17,000. By the way, my old engine was slam wore out with nothing ever done to it but normal maintenance. It made 1.3 million miles.
Have to ask but which engine is a redtop?,that must make mine a greytop since the top is grey.
M-11. Another thought re: the wisdom of changing out an engine. I believe the trade-off analysis should be based not on the potential sale price after the big investment, but rather the cost of buying another coach. If you're just looking for a coach, the comparison should be against other similar coaches. If you already own the coach, the comparison should be how much it will cost to replace it versus replacing the engine.
The reason I asked is last time we took the Foretravel tour every engine in the new ones was a "redtop".
My diesel mechanic refers to the M 11 450 hp with red valve covers as a red top. Guess that's what I'll call it.
400 hp m11's had grey tops.
450 hp were red tops starting in early 1997. My build date was feb 97 as was one if not the first 450hp engines