This winter I fulltimed in northern New Mexico. In January my tanks, or at least some part of tanks froze up and I put an electric heater on top of battery bank cover facing the tank exit area. After a bit I was able to drain the gray tank but not the black. I moved out of RV for couple months and Now I am back to working on it. I purchased TankTechs Rv, all natural probiotic tank treatment and waited but no change.
When I click on button to open the black tank and drain it, the lever seems to make the same noise it ever did that accompanied the opening of that tank and I can see the lever opening upwards but nothing comes out.
Today I put a small 20 foot "snake" down toilet but came to no blockage that I could tell.
Any ideas?
If you pour a cup of water down the John does anything comes out?
Andy2,
To clarify your question do you mean does anything come out the drain if I pour a cup of water into toilet?
Also, the black tank is so full I can see liquid about 7 inches down the toilet just before the pipe turns. So I hesitate putting much liquid down there.
In your (our) situation a 20' snake isn't really small. It's long enough that it can easily coil up in the tank and never find the drain opening. I would try running the snake in from the outside by punching a hole (no bigger than the size of the snake) in the sewer line nearest the valve and see if you can clear the clog, or run into the unopened valve blade.
I have a few ideas but they all end badly... :)) :-X
Take a hose and wrap it with a wet towel in the drain pipe.. wrap it tight and turn the water on..Pressure should get it to release.. possibly ... Told you I had ideas...
Thanks David and Traveling man. Getting dark and cold now. Will try your ideas in morning!
This is what I would try, I've used one for over 10 yrs to back flush. Just be careful not to overflow black tank.
Flush King RV Holding Tank Flush Valve - YouTube (https://youtu.be/EQFC07m18yQ)
Also I would try both of these companies products after you get the clog or cone out, first their Extreme Cleaner and second their regular product which I also have used for over 10 yrs.
Home - HAPPY CAMPERS (https://happy-campers.ca)
Flush King | Camping World (https://www.campingworld.com/flush-king-20522.html)
If your snake has a few bigger coils on the end then you can make a hole in the sewer hose big enough to accomodate it then once inside wrap duct tape around the hose to reduce the opening size making it tight. Make the hole on the top of the hose in case you get lucky and the dam bursts. Good luck.
Maybe try this. Put a ladder next to the tank, then hookup your sewer hose and duct tape the other end so that it is higher than the top of the tank. Then open valve and run the snake down the hose into the tank. Hopefully once it breaks up the blockage, pull out the snake, then you can either dump or close the valve and drain the hose into a container for disposal.
This sounds like you have some kind of electric tank valve. Is that correct? If you can see the "lever" moving, but nothing comes out the drain, then it is possible something in the connection between the lever and the actual gate valve has come loose or broken.
Do you have access to the valve, where you could see to work on it? If you can see what part of the linkage is broken, you might be able to open the valve manually.
Regular manual dump valves are just a simple sliding gate that is pulled up by a threaded rod to open the valve. If my guess about "the problem" is correct, then you just need to figure out how to grab hold of the top of the sliding gate and pull it up.
Sorry - without some photos it is hard to visualize exactly how you would do that.
These valves are known to fail by the shaft pulling out of the gate/guillotine, it appears to be opening because the shaft moves, when in fact the valve part didn't move. I would think this would be more likely than a watertight clog.
FOT replaced our black tank valve when we were there last. It had gotten so stiff that I once actually broke the handle trying to close it.
You're a bit too far for me to drive there and help, but can you take off the panel in the wet bay that covers the actual valves? It will take some work, but it is pretty straight forward. Once you get that panel off, and can see the valves, you ought to be able to see if the valve is actually opening. The rod may run through one or more supports, so that it doesn't flex when you push it closed. Those supports may make it seem like it is operating normally, when in fact it isn't.
I found a good thread over at the Airstream forum - shows a very good example of a similar problem, where the rod pulled out of the "blade". I'm glad I did this search and found that thread. I now have a much better idea of how the valve is assembled and how it operates. If I ever run into this problem (and I probably will) it won't be nearly as intimidating.
The owner had to actually remove part of the upper valve housing with a Dremel tool so he could grab the blade with Vise Grips. This would be one possible solution to a disconnected valve blade, IF THIS IS IN FACT THE OP's PROBLEM.
Waste valve handle and rod pulled out of the valve - Airstream Forums (http://www.airforums.com/forums/f444/waste-valve-handle-and-rod-pulled-out-of-the-valve-84229.html)
Kinda what I was thinking .. once he tried the water the opposite direction I think things will be clearer,, No Pun intended!! ^.^d
If---IF---you are sure your valve is opening and closing correctly, and the tank is NOT frozen you might try some light percussion persuasion on the area closest to the shutoff valve and the tank.
Just light taps as far around as you can go and attain some vibration without breaking the plastic.
Have your slinky hooked up and the valve open and the other end of the slinky pointed in a safe direction, preferably down the dump input.
It can take an unbelievable amount of time to thaw the black tank to the point that it will flow.
I would even go so far as to put a bunch of De-icer down the toilet.
I currently have a leanto with a dirt floor and the water/ice is still froze after everything outside has thawed and drained away, so I know it seems like forever before the ice melts.
If you think your tank is still frozen, put some coarse salt down the toilet and let it melt the ice. Just a thought.
I agree with Chuck, sounds like something has become disconnected. My manual handle broke off and had to replace entire valve. Had to dremel cut away part of the housing to be able to grab the blade with needle nose pliers. Wrapped towels around the valve when pulling the blade. I didn't use quite enough towels tight enough. Had liquid seepage for a couple of minutes till drained. After empty, replacement was straight forward. I did remove a section of the hard plastic drain pipe and replaced it with a flexible rubber hose and clamps to give enough room to remove the old valve and rusted bolts. Next time, the removal will be much simpler. I did a post with pictures on this about 3 years ago. I would try the snake up the hose to see if I could hear it hit the valve assembly. On my coach, this would only be about 3'.
Hope it is a simple fix.
Larry
I unscrewed the little "wall" that was in front of the gates. First photo closed. Second photo open.
Hope they aren't too dark.
Need to make sure the flange is moving.. Is it still frozen or are you in a warmer location?
Pics kinda dark
Current temperature at Elephant Butte shows to be 47 degrees F.
Don't know if that is her current location.
Susan,
They are dark, but viewable. So, it looks like the shaft that should be opening the valve is being pulled up. Now the next question: is the shaft still attached to the sliding gate, or has it come loose? Best way to determine that (I would think) is push some kind of flexible rod up into the open drain pipe, and see if you can feel a "hard" barrier when you get to the approximate location of the valve. If the gate is remaining closed (while the shaft is pulled up) the resistance should be very firm. A "blockage" of built-up waste matter would be softer...I would think. But best be prepared for a dousing when probing up the drain line with the rod, just in case.
If the rod has come loose from the slide, the rod will move VERY easily (too easily).
If that is the case, CAREFULLY try to screw the rod back into the slide (it is threaded).
I would temporarily disconnect the cable so you can get a better "feel" for what is happening.
I'm currently north of Santa Fe. Was 70's last week. Mid 30's today with a little snow expected.
Wolfe 10, do you mean the cable to gate?
Also I will try the little snake up through the dump opening and see if I hit a solid gate. Waiting for it warm up a little......
That must be a really old, not-brand-name electric dump valve. I can't find anything even close to that design with a Google search. Looks like it has a metal frame with a rack and pinion lifting mechanism. Anybody here ever seen one like that? Red Tractor?
I have seen that type of valve before but has been a while. I am not sure if the metal can be removed and see if the mechanism is hooked to the blade. Maybe some type of long screw could be used to hook the blade. Good luck.
Susan,
Ran your pics through one of my photo editing software programs to lighten them up. Can't help with electric valves though.
Keith
I think that is just an attachment that went onto a regular valterra valve
I have heard that if you can't fix the problem then just touch up the photo. >:D
I agree with RT The ? is the pull lever still attached to the valve or just sliding back and forth with the valve staying closed. I can see if tank was frozen and tried to open the valve the rod could come undone from the valve.
That looks like a manual valve as there is a cable going to the top of it in a nice even bend and it has a support clamp holding it at the top right side. Those wires could be just going past the valve to something else.
JohnH
Agree - sure does look like a cable going in the top of the mechanism.
BUT, what about the straight gear teeth that can be seen in 1st photo to the left and behind the operating rod? (rod pulled up)
AND, in the very first post, OP said:
"When I
click on button to open the black tank and drain it, the lever seems to make the same noise it ever did that accompanied the opening of that tank and I can see the lever opening upwards but nothing comes out. "
Which is why I assumed it is a electric valve of some sort. Perhaps it is electric with a manual backup provision?
Still waiting to hear back from Susan as to her progress, if any, in solving the problem.
Got home from work this afternoon, warmer and no snow.... I took off drain hose, after closing both black and gray tank buttons. I put the above mentioned snake up the drain and it hit a solid something, meaning probably that the door is still closed.
I hope you meant that you opened both valve buttons, if closed you definitely would hit the door.
Susan,
If you decide the valve is stuck in the closed position, then someone is going to have to get in there and figure out why. I don't see any other way to solve this situation. I thought about the possibility of getting the tank pumped out through the toilet, but the valve is still going to require either repair or replacement. If you don't feel up to this task, then you will probably require the assistance of a experienced RV repair person.
Can you take a photo pulled back some so we can see what the bay area surrounding the valve looks like? I'm trying to figure out what the light colored object is in the left half of your photos. Is it something that could be removed, to allow better access to the valve? The more room there is to work around the valve, the better the chance of figuring out how to get it open.
I am guessing that the final solution will be similar to that described in the link I posted in Reply #13.
Hi Chuck and Jeanie,
That light colored object is another mini wall separating the battery bank from this tank/water/electric plug, area. I thought about taking it apart but it has my blue sky attached to it. I guess it will have to be dismantled as well for me to get closer to this valve.
Tomorrow is another day... (as in Tara that works as an elementary school teacher/ not.)
I will try to take it apart without disturbing my wonderful Blue Sky... tomorrow after work.
I will keep you posted. :)
Thanks for everyone hanging in here with me.
Chuck, I did ot read her comment regarding activating the a switch for valves I just looked at the picture, so, with saying that I take back my comment re it not being an electrically operated item.
JohnH
Not to hijack the thread but I like this approach to lubing the valve blade;
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TGv9THpOdmw
I have just installed two new valves and I will incorporate this technique when its time for lubrication. Thanks TM.
jk
Be sure to verify that the lube you use is compatible with the blade seals. I am not saying that there is a problem, but, for example if you use a petroleum-based lube on rubber, it will help short-term, but swell the seals.
If someone KNOWS what material the seals are made of, we can post that so everyone will know.
Sears.com (https://www.sears.com/valterra-valve-seal-valterra-1004-7n-4inch-slip/p-A011358471)
Santoprene?
https://www.usplastic.com/knowledgebase/article.aspx?contentkey=996
Bladex Replacement Valve Seal Kit 3" T1003-9VP
Bladex replacement seals are made of high-quality Santoprene for chemical resistance and maximum durability. Kits include seals, nuts, & bolts.
https://www.salhydro.fi/files/PDF/SantopreneChemicalResistance.pdf
Lithium minor effect
Excellent. THAT is what we need to know.
I can't remember where I heard, saw, or read it now but someone drilled the blade housing and installed a zerk fitting in it. I thought that was an interesting idea, but I don't know of any grease I would want to use there that goes in a grease gun. I think drilling a hole and spraying some pure non drying silicon is what I will do. I was able to spray the third valve and the gray valve by just disconnecting the hose because it is a straight shot through the opening. It is quite effective, and can easily be renewed if it gets sticky again. But the black tank valve is around the corner and farther back, so the method in this video should work. Fortunately, my utility bay set up makes it very easy to access the valve assemblies.
Don
I think it was Carol & Jeff who I purchased the coach from who told me this tip. Put some vegetable oil down the sink and toilet and operate the valves. Lubes them for a while. Works for me.
Keith
I to have made that modification and have been useing white lithium grease. Don't forget to put the sheet metal screw back in after you lube! Got distracted and missed the one on the black tank. Simply amazing how much stuff can come out of such a tiny hole. Felt like the little Dutch Boy with my finger over the hole till tank drained down. DW thought it was the funniest thing she had seen in a while. Glad she did not have phone or it would have been on Youtube.
If you are talking about the lubrication mod in the video linked above, I don't understand how any "stuff" could come out the drilled hole. That hole is up in the "top" section of the valve housing where the steel shaft goes up and down. That area of the valve is
outside the two seals that surround the moving blade. The seals keep all the liquid from escaping around the blade as it moves up and down. Unless the blade seals are damaged and leaking badly, there should be nothing except the grease that was injected, and
no pressure, in that part of the valve.
This version of the "valve lube mod" makes more sense to me. In this case, the RV owner is filling the empty void in the valve housing with liquid lubricant. With the void full of lube, every time the blade is opened and closed, both faces of the blade will be treated to a thin coating of liquid lube. This will ease the movement of the blade through the tight rubber seals that surround the blade on both sides. It will also lubricate the steel shaft as it is moved up and down through the shaft guide.
Using a liquid lube seems more logical (to me) than using a semi viscous white grease. Of course, I've not actually tried either mod, so...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GDErKY05-8
How about one of those cheap plastic syringes filled with vegetable oil?
I took out the fiberglass wall between battery bank and drain valves. Attached photos of open and closed.
I also put snake up drain with black tank supposedly open but hit a wall. So I think the gate is not opening.
I like idea of lubrications- Oh if it could be that simple! Just don't know where to begin.
Thinking of getting some sewer company to drain the tank through the toilet before embarking further.
I appreciate all the conversations and videos. Truly.
Susan
When I changed my black tank valve, I wished there would have been a way to drain mine first. It wasn't pretty to say the least. The cost to have it pumped would have been negligible.
Larry
If you look at the pictures in Chuck's reply #13 link, I believe you could do the same thing after getting the sheet metal out of the way of the valve. You will be replacing it anyway.
Susan,
You'll have to excuse us - we are bad around here about going off on tangents in these threads. Like talking about lubing the dump valve, which is of no help to you at the present time. But we mean well, and a lot of times the digression brings up some very useful info. But to get back to your problem...
Like Chuck (craneman) says, I think your best course of action is to follow the procedure shown in the link below. Looking at your recent photo, I agree with Red Tractor when he said he thinks the electric part of your dump valve has been added on to a standard manual valve. If the metal parts of the valve are unbolted and removed, then I think you will be looking at the same valve as shown in the photo below. The metal rod will probably pull out of the top of the valve when the metal frame is removed, because we think the rod has separated from the sliding gate.
NOTE: I'm still trying to think this through in my head. If you try to remove the metal framework and the steel operating rod does not want to pull easily out of the top of the valve, STOP THERE and get back to us. If that happens it might mean the rod has NOT come loose from the top of the blade, and we will need to reconsider this whole plan.
Once the metal parts are out of the way, the idea of the "fix" is that you (or someone) will carefully cut the top section of the valve off with a saw or a Dremel tool with a cut-off wheel. When the top of the valve is removed, then it should be possible to grab the actual sliding gate with Vice-Grip pliers and carefully pull it up, which will open the valve and let the tank drain. You don't want to pull the gate up too far, or it will come completely out of the valve body resulting in a small geyser. Try to just inch it up slowly until about 1.5" of the blade is exposed. This should open the valve enough to let the tank drain. Looking at the photos in the link will help clarify this explanation.
Waste valve handle and rod pulled out of the valve - Airstream Forums (http://www.airforums.com/forums/f444/waste-valve-handle-and-rod-pulled-out-of-the-valve-84229.html)
If you wish to get the tank contents sucked out by a septic tank service truck before attempting this operation, that sure wouldn't hurt anything.
When removing the metal and electric parts of the valve, try to pay attention (make notes) to how it is attached. Once you finally get a new dump valve in place, you will want to reinstall the metal frame to (hopefully) restore the electric valve operation.
Any news Susan?