While I had my coach in Bernd's shop I had the seals replaced on my two fan motors. This is the seal they used.
Amazon.com: National 222025 Oil Seal: Automotive (https://www.amazon.com/National-222025-Oil-Seal/dp/B000C5LHZU)
The interior motor was the one that had a slow leak (oil residue around the shaft), but the outer one was fine. I had both of them replaced. Now the interior motor is leaking more than it did before the "repair." I've probably driven 1500 miles since the seals were replaced, but I suspect it has been leaking for most of those miles.
So my questions are:
1. Should I have the seal replaced again or is this just an exercise in futility? I do have some concerns about how the seals were installed, but it is a pretty simple job once the fan motor is out. I've attached a pic showing the conditions under which the seals were replaced. Not exactly clean and tidy!
2. Are these the fan motors that are so hard to get? Does anyone know the make and model of the fan motors used in 2000?
Thanks in advance.
George,
Locate a good hydraulic shop who works on that brand/style hydraulic motor. Visit with them or just take it to them for evaluation about resealing/rebuilding. They would be much better than us at determining if it is resealable/rebuildable or if wear means replacement.
Sorry to see your "recheck" list building.
Looks like you need to head on back to Bernd's have him pull them, at their expense. The get them to a hyd shop for proper repair. From my past experience with these type of motors they need to be dissembled and the shaft polished up good. Usually just putting a seal in them doesn't work, and it has to be done in a clean environment. Sorry you are having problems, not fun.
Not sure if we have the same motors and hyd pump. Both pump and motors got new seals in Bernd's shop in 2015. 16K miles later no leaks, but maybe I should check to be certain. Took 3 tries with the pump to get it right. He also did drive axle wheel seals, one of which started leaking after about a week and now the other is leaking. Bernd did stand behind his work and sent Beau Reece to Austin to fix the seal. Suggest that you call Bernd and see if he will do anything to fix your problem.
Looks like another fine example of professional techs at Bern'd doing what the do best.
Someone on the forum bought a new motor for less than a CB from Danfloss can't find the info.
Jerry... I did call Bernd and left a message.
George
Bruce hit the nail on the head about the shaft,sometimes you can install the seal a little in more or less to get a different spot on the shaft.Just for curiosity sake when was the oil changed last and what weight oil did you use?
The hydraulic oil was changed at Bernd's after one of his crew got some water, yes, water in the system. They flushed it with about 14 gallons (that is what he tried to charge me for) of the recommended oil (Delo 15W-40), before filling the reservoir. Of course, they also changed the filters. The problem was noted quickly because the outboard fan motor was leaking oil when the engine was started after the engine/fan work was completed. The oil looked like milk!
I am absolutely sure the water was not in the system before Bernd's work since the system was drained when the fan motors were removed. One of the techs remarked how clean it was and that it would not have to be changed. That was before the water incident. As I said, Bernd tried to charge me for the flush but gave me a refund after we discussed it.
See the attached... warning! As they say on TV, this picture may be disturbing to some!
George
Yup, hydraulic oil was absolutely clean when inspected in League City just before driving to Nacogdoches.
I'm sitting here (armchair quarterbacking) trying to imagine
how this could possibly happen...so far, I'm drawing a blank.
If such a thing is possible, I have no doubt that Bern'd and his Master Techs can accomplish this easily.
Hate to see work like that but every time I do I thank God I can do it myself,would get a couple of sets of filters coming cause
that's where the water will end up.On an engine that moisture will burn off but will just circulate on the hyd system.Wonder if he
left that long hose out in the rain.Guess he charges extra to wipe the parts off.
Seems like Bernd..is close to a 4 letter word......scary photos
WOW! What a shame George! Totally unacceptable.
After reviewing a lot of advice on whether to reseal my ailing hydraulic motor, I have decided to buy a new one from FT. The problem is that resealing often fails (but not always) and it will cost me at least $500 to remove the motor for resealing. Of course, the one I need is the expensive one with the thermal valve. Only $3295 with my discount. The other fan motor without the thermal valve is $625. They have both in stock. I will try to have the old one rebuilt.
According to the Brett, who did the pre-sale inspection of the coach, this pump was NOT leaking before Bernd's master techs (or perhaps a better name would be "disaster techs") got their hands on it. This is contrary to what I stated in my first post in this thread. I continue to pay for my mistake in allowing World Line Motors to touch my coach. I did leave a message with Bernd and asked him to call me about this problem. No response as of yet.
George
George you might Try TUROLLA they are the wholesaler of the hydraulic motor it took me 3 months to get mine but supposedly they are back on line
Call Trerri Turpen at 515-239-6554
or email at tturpen@turollaocg.com
Give her the numbers off the motor and she should be able to help you
My pump was the SHM2/22 C002
The 2 motors are the same but one has the valve body attached. Turolla does not do the valve body but supposedly
Dynamatic of Mequon WI does that part person there is Chris Zainer Ph. 262-292-8103. I have not dealt with Dynamatic, Terri just told me that is who made the valve body. Motor without valve body was $357 plus tax total was $389.61
BTW the overhaul kit is about 100.00 but the bottom seal is available for under $10.00
The seal is 20mm. id. X 30mm. od X 7mm thick I got 3 C/R brand off eBay for $10.00 with free shipping
I personally would not buy the seal kit again unless the other seals are leaking--Just me!
If you need any more info PM me and Ill try to help!
Good Luck
Chris
I hate dirt. I build my transmissions and engines on a glass table bench top . No reason for a leak if the shaft is true.
Often if I see a small groove, the standard op is to move the seal one way of the other to not run on the worn part of the shaft .
There are plenty of shaft repair sleeves to address this also.
Chris and Mike... thanks for the info. See the attached for the number off my leaking motor.
The current motor is from a different source (see attached). Unfortunately, I need the one with the thermo valve. Buying the valve body seperately is beyond my "pay grade" so to speak. I bought the seal (same one used at Bernd's) from Amazon... National Seal 222025 when I was thinking about just replacing the seal.
George
Send me your old ones. I'll take a peek .
George, if time permits take old one apart and see what the shaft is like and replace the seal if it is good. That really is all that is needed. Look with a magnifying glass as any damage only needs to microscopic. I used to rebuild jet engines on HCopters and diesel engines so do know what will work and not. I may have to do mine fairly soon and will sure not throw money away if not needing to.
JohnH
Forgot what the process is called but we had a machinest that would put the shaft in a lathe and spray molten metal on the grove
to repair it.
Yep, we did that too and it was "chroming" a shaft in the old days.
JohnH
What diameter shaft are we talking about? Do they make shaft repair sleeves small enough to work in this application?
Sometimes you can take the seal in and they can match one from it.
National make a sleeve that slips on the shaft(if the shaft is cut from the original seal)
The (Redi-Sleeve comes in a kit with a matching seal).
FT told that the only difference between the two motors is that one has a thermo-valve and the other does not. Is the thermo-valve something that can just be bolted on to the motor? If so, would it be possible or advisable to take the valve off the leaking motor and attach it to a new motor without the valve? Big savings since the motor with a valve is only $625. Purpose of the thermo-valve?
I had the valve off to reseal my motors, the rebuilding kit came with seals to do either one, but the kit was around $125.00 and the seal only was around $4.00 I only used the kit for one and just the seal for the other.
George check the national seal number against metric measurements. 20mm id =.787. 30mm od. = 1.181. 7mm thickness = .275
thickness is not as critical as ID and OD
Chris
George I would suspect a good machine shop could do the attachment. I would be asking!
Chris
I have a friend who is a machinist, he does a lot of oil field work . He uses a metal compound, comes in a can, mixed with a resin, it is as hard as steel. He applies it, waits for it to harden, when machined you are hard press to see the repair. What he likes is there is no heat input and it's a small area to repair.
Dave
Safe Travels
The sleeves work fine. No need to take it all apart, Red loctite the sleeve push it on and done. Wipe off the excess. . push in new seal .
We would use Belzona,is expensive but works,used it to repair a Cat engine block.
John, I believe that is the name of the product my machinist friend uses.. He swears by it.. I have used sleeves on crankshafts for years . They work very well..
Safe Travels
Dave
How to Repair a Shaft Using Forming Techniques - YouTube (https://youtu.be/Bv-uks1G_fY)
We did not use the form, just built it up with belzona then turned it down on a lathe.
TAFA Metalization was the name. I worked with them on grinding their sprayed hard-facing metals.
Seals also leak if the bearings are loose.
http://www.praxairsurfacetechnologies.com/en/components-materials-and-equipment/coating-equipment/thermal-spray-coating-systems
I'm still undecided about what to do about my leaky hydraulic fan motor (the one with the thermo-valve $$$$). I thought for a while that it might just be leaky hose connection, but further study showed it is a leak from around the shaft. I wondered how much oil was leaking and rigged up a pan under the motor frame... definately Rube Goldberg inspired! But I think it is positioned such that it will catch any drops from above. See pic. I then drove the coach at highway speeds for about an hour. The result... not a single drop of oil in the pan. But there was an oil stain below the motor. We are taking a longer trip tomorrow (about 400miles round trip) and I'll keep the pan in place to see what happens.
My question is, what will likely be the end result if I don't repair this expensive leak for a while. I have a friend that drove his U320 40 for about 25000 miles with a leaky motor. Will the leak just get worse with time? Or is there a danger that the motor will fail catastrophically? Thanks in advance for any insights.
My coach has had a weeping seal on the fan motor, just damp since 2006. Not to jinx myself. Rarely do the seals just blow out they usually just seep.
George, if everyone checked their fan motors that are in 10 to 20 Year old coaches I would wager that nearly all have some seep leak
I agree with bruce--I would just keep an eye on fluid level and watch the leak for volume --how big is the stain area.
IF that is the only leak you can just change the bottom seal as I posted earlier with a CR brand the size is 20mm X 30mm. X 7mm
on eBay I bought 3 for under 10.00
Chris
Agree, agree, with both above. For 5 years we have owned our coach, the fan motors have both seeped, but don't drip oil on the ground. To me, a significant distinction. I can live with a "seep" but not with a "drip". I HATE leaving a oil spot where I park our coach. Guess I developed the aversion early in life, when my first motorized vehicle was a BSA Gold Star 500 thumper.
(Note: Classic BSA engines were factory equipped with a "constant loss" oiling system. You poured oil in the top, and it ran out the bottom)
I would also agree with "watchful waiting" in this case. 95% probability doing so will not strand you on the side of the highway.
I don't want to derail this thread, but the below reminded me of my dad's 36' Harley VL. I remember being astounded when he told me about the constant loss oiling system with a dry sump and a separate oil tank. The end of the line for the oil as it dripped out was positioned above the drive chain to lubricate it with engine oil.
Don
Oh what the heck - let's go ahead and derail it.
BSA went one step farther - the final drive chain was completely enclosed in a sheet metal chain guard. Enough oil leaked past the transmission output shafts to keep the chain nicely wetted down, and the chain guard kept it (relatively) clean. GENIUS!
Along the same lines I had a 69 Triumph Bonnville with the dual Amal carbs,every time you started it you primed the 2 buttons
on the carb until gas squirted out and got your fingers full of gas.
Same with BSA. And remember, that was LEADED gas soaking into our fingers! Probably explains
some of my present-day cognitive impairment.
Had some friends that took simichrome and polished the wrinkles off the valve covers then wondered why it ran hotter.
I had both Beazer and the Trumpet ,I could sell the land where I parked them as a possible oil field...then.....I got me a Norton 750 first then a 850....no leaks...preferred the 750....
H
PLEASE-- Let's get back to George's original topic: Hydraulic motor is leaking... again
I am sure that oil leaks on motorcycles and old DD two strokes are interesting, but not likely to enlighten him.
Thanks.
Brett/Moderator
Mine weeps. Nothing on ground
Thanks "Dad!" But no problem. Got question answered before the motorcycle oil leak thread started. I really appreciate all the input provided.
George
Part of the long term reliability on our coach was to change the dynamatic fan controller.
The oem is 180. Starts in low at 165. Full high speed at 180.
Normal run down the road is 180.
Thermostat on the motor is not open fully until 195.
The rest of the industry uses a 184 low speed ramping up to 199.
Heats the oil used to run the power steering and the fans.
Nothing lasts as long. Wanna bet it contributes to the steering box leaks?
Consumes 50-60 hp. 1 to 1 1/2 mpg.
Engine pulls better at low rpms after that change and the resonator install.
Pulls versus downshifting at 3/4 throttle under load. Torque.
Low rolling resistance tires. Blue tech air filter. Solar so the alternator shuts down
Different ride than new to us
Here is a pic of my "drip catcher" under the leaky fan motor after 200 miles of highway driving. If you look carefully you can see a few oil stains, but not much. So it definately seems to be a seep rather than a drip. That is, assuming the pan catches the drips and given its placement, I think it does. Even if the drips are displaced a bit inward by air moving from the fan toward the engine, the pan should still catch most of them.
Update: I added a pic of the "drip pan" after 400 miles of highway travel. Same story... not much.
George
I would research and gather seals etc. and just leave it George maybe consider adding a quart of leak/seal conditioner.
I've done what John suggests with good success. The seal conditioner softens and lets the seal expand. I had a auto trans with a severe input shaft seal leak. So bad that I used two bottles. It stopped the leak at about 330,000 and still dry at 450K.
Might want to check with a shop first but think I might head this direction.
Pierce
Pan test probably invalid... I got to thinking about the effect of the air movement from the fans on the drops of oil seeping out of the motor. I set up a simple experiment with a household fan. Even on high, I doubt the movement of air is anything like what the hydraulic motors create. But the displacement of oil drops was still significant. See the attached. I now doubt that the pan to catch the drips would work because most the oil drips would be blown past the pan. Plus you have the air movement from the movement of the coach when it is underway. The area in the back of the leaky motor (toward the engine) is oily, but not excessively so.
I should note that the hydraulic oil is very clean. Bernd's boys changed it after getting water in the system (see above). And I had the filters changed again last week to remove the last of the water. I think the oil stain looks dirty on the cardboard because the drips have flowed over dirty areas of the frame holding the motor.
This effect may explain what I am seeing. When the coach is sitting (without the pan) I usually put a piece of cardboard under the leaking fan motor. Attached is a photo of the oil spot from 24 hours. The big question now is, does it leak more when I'm underway? I'm still undecided as to what to do. I did buy some of the Lucas hydraulic oil additive and will probably give it a try.
George
George,
FYI there are different stages of leaks.
1.Ooze
2.Seep
3.Drip
4.Trickle
5.Deluge
You have moved from #2 to #3 and that needs to be addressed. That is a lot of oil for just 24 hrs. The oil additive can be effective on some leaks. If it was an old seal the additive might help but I thought that this seal was new just a few months ago. I would be ready to install another seal if the additive don't help. You sure don't want to progress to #4 or #5.
Mike
Edit: I just went back and reread your first post on this, so those seals are what I would call new.
I think there must be 1 more
OH SHI*
Another installment in "What the #@%% is going on with my fan motor?"... As I mentioned in my last post on this topic, the pan to catch drops of oil from the leaky/seepy motor probably didn't catch much due to air movement from the fan and the motion of the coach when underway. I needed another way to asses how much oil was being lost by the motor.
So I took to monitoring drips using a large piece of cardboard under the leaky/seepy motor. I took the coach out for a spin at highway speed for about 35 miles once a day for three days. Then I checked under the coach visually to see if there was any obvious oil from the fan motor sprayed around it. After the inspection, I put a piece of cardboard under it for 18-24 hours to check for leaks. The first day I had a few drops, not much. The second and third nothing. Not a single drop. And I could see no evidence of leakage when I checked the area around the motor. Although I must admit that I have little skill in this area of expertise.
As I mentioned in my previous post, I did have the hydraulic filters changed again last week when I had some work done at Cummins. Maybe getting the last bit of water out of the system helped. Water can affect the viscosity of oil. Probably wishful thinking!
So I'm not going to pull the motors at this time. We're headed north to Anacortes on Sunday and I will continue to monitor the leaky/seepy motor. Wish us luck.
George,
Is it possible that this oil was setting on the angle iron framing for the fan motors and didn't get cleaned up after they were installed? You might want to check this area for evidence of oil.
Mike
George, did you add the Lucas hydraulic additive? So far I know of three "miracle in a bottle" products (other than pharmaceutical which is another story.) Lucas hydraulic additive, Trans X auto transmission additive and Deoxit D5.
Lucas hydraulic conditioner completely stopped a steering rack leak in a VW Westphalia Wasserboxer. From a quart a day to zero. Still leak free a year later. My experience.
Trans X (which used to cost ten dollars a can but came with an instant money back guarantee if it didn't work) watched my brother add it to a pickup with a totally non responsive auto tranny, which then began to shift normally and did so for months afterward.
Deoxit D5. Resurrected many electronic devices, microswitches etc. Cleaned up corrosion in my hearing aids after some unintentional total immersion saltwater therapy.
Added heavy dose of Lucas to seeping hydraulic steering and fan motor system six years ago. Stopped the seep but is now slowly recurring.
Our '02 had the same pump with the same issue. We were about to meet some grandkids at an airport and spend some weeks on the road with them, and I did not want to be stranded while we waited for a rather rare pump to arrive from FOT, so we purchased one to carry with us as insurance. ($$$$$) FOT advised us to just monitor the issue and keep adding oil as needed.
We did that for more than 18 months. After doing his own research on the issue, the new owner of our coach is doing the same thing, I believe.
Good point about oil on the frame, but I had Cummins steam clean that area after they worked on it. I guess this is SOP for that shop since I didn't ask them to clean the engine. I wanted to start with a clean "slate" so to speak after they did the hydraulic filter change. Regarding the Lucus hydraulic additive, I did add a quart to the system (~4%) for good measure after I did my cardboard drip tests. It probably needs more, but I will have it along if need be. The stuff is really thick!
George