Foretravel Owners' Forum

We recently wrote an email response to a friend asking about solar needed to dry camp with an electric fridge, and we decided to also share our response with the Forum.

We have our electric Whirlpool 10cu fridge for about 7 years and it works great.  We also are mostly plugged in, but over the last seven years we have been dry camping multiple times for about two weeks each.

During our two-week dry camping stops (Quartzsite and Balloon Fiesta) we run our generator every morning and evening.  We have 720 watts of solar (6 panels) but during the day & early evening we are not electrically frugal by running computers, TV & DVR's.  So most solar energy is used to keep some of our toys powered.

But overnight it is a different story.  We leave our main Xantrex inverter on and other than fridge outlet, we power EVERYTHING off.  Every original inverter 120-volt outlet has a power strip, into which devices are plugged.  We turn off each power strip switch.  Turning off TV at the TV-set does not remove all power, so to eliminate all inverter loads things have to be unplugged or by switching off power strips.

Our main need is to keep fridge running overnight.  We tried to power off fridge to see if it would stay cold enough without opening doors, but found it warmed up a bit too much, but it could work.  We also tried to disable or control when fridge electric heater defrost kicks on, but that just seemed to make things too complicated, so on some nights the heater may turn on, but this also would benefit dry camping if we could control it.

I think that if we were also frugal during the day by managing electric usage, solar would not even be needed.  For sure the first day & night batteries are starting out fully charged from days of driving.  But bringing house battery down to about 12.2 volts with no load or 50%, when running generator for several hours, batteries are likely only charged up to about 85%, as the last 15% or so may take about 12 more hours.  As batteries are charged, internal resistance increases, causing them to accept fewer amps.  We think of dry camping as using battery capacity between 50 & 85 %, so the more batteries we have, the more amps available.  We have two 8D Gel house batteries, and the newer the batteries, the more amps available, too.

At night, if you are using the main inverter for the fridge, I would be sure nothing else is being powered by the fridge circuit.  You could do the power strip trick, unplug everything, or turn off inverter circuit breakers, etc.  Run generator in morning, evening and anytime you are running important 120-volt inverter loads.  We have no problem running generator a lot, and at about 4/10ths of a diesel gallon per hour we are aware that drying camping does not mean zero camping costs.

Our batteries in the morning are usually above 12.2 (no-load) volts, but occasionally running them lower is acceptable.  We also turn off our gen autostart during the night because we set ours to autostart at about 12.2 volts and when a 12.3 or 12.4 battery level is hit with fridge running, battery could under load reach below autostart level, even though when fridge turns off battery will settle back to 12.3 or 12.4.  Also, if we are parked near someone else, we don't want a gen start to annoy them or ourselves.

But on your early dry camping overnight experiences, until you know how your batteries will react, I would leave autostart on to prevent a discharge down to a very low 11.5 volt.  Be sure battery terminals are clean and tight. 

We do have shunts on house batteries to know how many amps are being drawn from each.

And during the night, when I get up for a moment, I will look at voltage levels trying to catch volt meter when fridge is running, just going off, or just starting to learn how batteries are holding up.  For us dry camping means running generator, something others who pride themselves in living off the grid at a minimum would not find acceptable.

We have always had solar, installing them ourselves, but I cannot say they are cost effective.  They are a luxury for us, and they have never been much of a substitute for generator running.

For installing solar, we are believers in attaching mountings with screws, not just 3M double stick tape as some do.  We also use to tilt solar panels to increase amps, but found it a pain so our current setup does not tilt.  Most of the time solar even like ours does not replace gen as sun is fickle and amp output is inconsistent maxing at about 30 amps. 

Considering our two 8D Gel house batteries have a capacity of about 200 amp/hour each,  400 amp total, 50% is 200 amps, 80% is 320 amps, so the max amps available to use is about 120 amps for one hour, or 30 amps over 4 hours, etc.  So batteries don't necessarily have a lot of capacity.  And running generator will charge batteries and at the same time supply our needs.  When solar is only putting out 5, 10, 15, or 20 amps when sun goes behind cloud or it is a cloudy day or nighttime, it is hard to make a case for solar being the end-all.

To learn where the metal roof cross members are, we use two methods:  on an early cool humid morning, the ribs may show and with a magic marker or tape mark the width of each side to side rib.  The other way is buy or use an electronic stud finder, which we find a great tool to own.  We only recommend framed glass solar panels and mount the panels to an aluminum angle, then bolt another aluminum angle to the first angle and then bolt the 2nd angle down to roof.  Some use short pieces of angle, but that requires drilling holes in solar frame so the short angles align to roof supports.  We prefer long angles the length of the solar, bolting one angle to existing manufacturers holes and the other angle to roof supports.  There are other things to share with electric cable and solar controller and inside display panel.  That's it.

Anyone can install solar especially these days with solar being so popular, so there is no need to drive to Texas.  Quartzsite always has year around solar installers.

By the way, any solar even your portable 100-200 watt can help.  Just they may not be well placed and could be theft-able and not windproof.

Is solar desirable for dry camping-- absolutely.

Is it required-- absolutely not.

Weigh out YOUR needs-- cost of solar panels, charge controller, wiring, etc VS fuel burned by your generator.  You will find that you can buy a lot of diesel or propane for the cost of a reasonable solar system.

Part of my feeling is based on the years we have "dry camped" in our sailboats-- months at a time with no shore power and no solar and electric refrigeration, lights, water pump, etc, etc.  And the 120 amp alternator was no more powerful than the charger built into modern RV's.

Thanks Barry,

I agree, the simple answer is no.  Your answer depends on how you want to use your coach.

With new refrigerators, lots more mobile devices, new battery options, lots of solar options, new inverter/charger options, multiple inverter options and everything else that we can do to our coaches that is not the way they were when they were built,  most folks can make good choices with knowledge.

Do a realistic energy audit.  Get the tools you need to determine how much and where your power is being used over a day or preferably longer and at different times of the year. You really shouldn't do anything until you know what your average daily power use in different seasons really is.

Learn all you can about how the systems you have now work and how changes in equipment will change the that works.

Be realistic about your power needs.  Solar will add power but not overnight.  Your generator will add power but you might not to use it as much as might be needed.  Batteries store power.  How deep a cycle do you want to do each day? Can you fully recharge them with solar or generator each day?  The depth of the discharge cycle and how much they get recharged effects the life expectancy of your batteries.

If you need to stay overnight at a Walmart in January when it is 10° and it will be dark 16 hrs and you are doing your normal activities, heating, eating, watching TV etc then battery capacity becomes the critical part of the energy balance equation.  Even more if you are trying to keep your discharge cycles shallow.  And you want to do this without running your generator.  This was our design choice.  It required more battery capacity. And we can do it and not get batteries below 70-75% charge.

In the winter your solar might do 25% of what it can do under ideal circumstances in the summer.  Our peak days in the summer have been as much as 7KW from solar. 4-5KW is more common. In January it is more like 1.5-2KW.  In the middle olf the winter we cannot expect solar to recharge the batteries to overcome the typical 2.8 - 3.0 KW daily demand.  In the summer we can be land line and generator free for as long as we want to stay put.

My solar panels are fixed.  I am not getting up on the roof to tilt them.  I used 64 sq in of VHB tape per panel.  Much more than one can with the tiny brackets many installers use.  We did them ourselves and our 1200 watts on the roof cost about $1.25/watt installed including the solar charge controller and wiring. Your cost may be different.  Is it cost effective?  Hard to say but the benefits are much more than money.  If you are mostly connected to a land line or are OK with running your generator then adding solar might not be a good choice.

When we are in a park where electric is metered our solar generation significantly reduces the 120v we use from the metered connection.  Most of the time we are not using the land line to charge batteries or run the refrigerator.

There are lots of options for everyone to choose from and many ways to make changes to your coach that improve the way it works for you in the way you want to use it. Learn all you can, understand how you use your coach and what changes will help.  Ask questions of those you trust.  Ask for help when you need it.  If you make changes be sure they are done with safety in mind. 

When it is all done, use it and enjoy it.

Awesome thread!!

3M VHB tape would be my choice. Has worked fine for my 1180 watts on roof For me, no thanks for lots of new holes in my roof as potential future leaks DWMYH.

Barry that is a well researched, well written post.  Thank you.

My first thought was to write visione the motorhome part out place and see how much they want for the 97 U320's upper battery tray they used to have.  Three new mk gels batteries would help you I think.

I wonder if yoy might consider lifeline agm's as the 250 amp hour  capacity and 20% faster charging rate might help.

Your 85% charging although works best with the gels.  Agm's would require equalization over long term.

The mk gels are 675 amp hours new so you would have a lot more room between 50 and 85%.

And as you have already seen are not as damaged from running between 50% and 85%.

Would be on the phone looking for the third battery myself.

I thought about that coaches bottom two battery tray for ours.

If installed over the existing two batteries the cabling  would have to go on the other side of the compartment wall. 

Four 8g8d's would be great.  Double your  capacity

12.2 seems low for 50% SOC?

Our coach's previous owners installed 540 W of solar, and there is room for at least two more panels. We have two 8d AGM batteries and could install one more without major modifications. I consider what we currently have to be the minimum for sry camping and would add more if we planned to do a significant amount of dry camping.

We could run endless analyses to determine what we "need"-- but I honestly believe this is one of those cases when the best answer is to install what one can afford to spend and then learn to live with what one has.

To add my 2 bits to the post, I have to play the devil's advocate with Barry's post. I love camping outdoors and nothing spoils it more (other than a boom box) than a generator running. Each morning in Q, we were awakened by the sound of generators. Opening the door, there is a low hum from hundreds of generators running. We usually camp at high altitude here in the Sierras and not only is our generator noisy but it stinks and produces a light blue haze. We have even had tent campers pound on our door in Yellowstone. Ours is not unique as they all do it. Diesel generators found in RV are old school, non-turbo, no common rail injection, etc. The last of the dinosaurs.

With LED upgrades to lighting, TVs etc. the power needed is much less than when the coach came from the factory. Our solar system has been in operation for ten years and only cost $1400 for the absolutely the best panels, wiring, controller, etc. If you do a Craigslist search, you can find great deals on batteries and only pay a small percentage of the list price. You do have to think outside the box a bit but retirement gives you the time to do the research. From the possibilty of using fork lift batteries to the six AGMs we purchased, our cost was only $210 for $2700 worth of solar AGMs ( https://www.osibatteries.com/p-997.aspx?searchEngineName=enersys-genesis-pure-lead-xe70x-0771-6003-battery-68ah-w-metal-jacket&gclid=CjkKEQjwm_2aBRCpivfn94X-o7IBEiQAuhGjMqTN-OVKRmxP4QfXHAQk0Rv3J2OT9PhSsIkUnUx8wIvw_wcB )  These deals are pretty common if you take the time to look. With the increased efficiency and lower cost now available, we would have 1300 watts on the roof instead of 1140 and for less $$.

I made the fridge compartment fire proof and installed a new Norcold propane refrigerator when we brought the U300 home. With the huge propane tank, it will run forever on a tank. We have a 50 inch 4K TV and watch it almost every night without ever starting the generator. We do shut the inverter off at night but the batteries have plenty of juice in the morning to run the latte maker and microwave. And, we only have about 408 Ah total. Batteries are still good ten years later. We could add more solar or more batteries but just don't need it.

So, no automatic generator start, etc. If we are in hot weather, we may stop where there is juice available. In Mexico, we are either at the beach where we don't need AC or at higher altitudes where it's cooler. The generator was last started a year ago for it's oil change.

In sailing across oceans where we were well over 1000 miles from the nearest land, we quickly had a reality check for what works and what fails. Anything electric or automatic has a good chance of failure.  In ten years of Foretravel ownership, we have had ZERO coach bucks spent on failures, etc. Only on improvements and even that has not been much.

If you research, DIY the installation, solar is not a luxury but provides an almost maintenance free source of electricity for very little original cost. Solar and propane provide an excellent partnership for dry camping.

From a post above; AGM batteries may or may not take equalization. Ours strictly prohibit using equalization. Check with the manufactures's web site before setting the controller/charger or you could shorten your battery's life.

Yes, I drilled our roof. There are already around 200 holes in the roof and if I can't seal new screw holes, I don't belong working on an RV.

Pierce

I may get be getting off course here. To me the whole purpose of dry camping is the piece and quiet. No matter who you are generator noise is annoying. With that said while the residual fridges are nice, most folks I know have 3-5 hours of generator time per day even with solar. We boondock extensively, so we elected to keep our rv fridge. Like Berry said if you run post to
post and boondock only occasionally solar may be a mute point.

900 watts solar and 4 agm 8D batteries and no gen needed. Residential fridge,led lights and no tv use as we are on holiday.
No matter were we are parked if there are others we do not even consider starting the genset. In 10 yrs of use and travel we have 80hrs recorded on the gen. Mostly while going south in winter to Mexico or on way back in March for heating soups etc in microwave.
We use a 1000 watt inverter for fridge power while travelling.
Works well for us.
JohnH

Not so... We have gone to the dunes and never turned the generator off... sometimes ran it for 3to 4 days straight.. So not always.. if it wasnt the sound of generators running it was the exhaust from a cycle or 2 or 50..

Bob & Susan, Thank you.

I think the AGM vs GEL is another tough one to decide which is the winner and the other the loser. We started with GEL, so even after considering the higher charge voltage and faster charge time with AGM, we still end up replacing with GEL. Lifelines' marketing 'claims' are a bit too much for me to accept their version of amp capacity rating and with their higher costs and limited purchase options, Lifelines have never a consideration for us.

I think both AGM & GEL will give us good service. We consider our 225 amp hour capacity to be conservative, closer to 200 amp hour for discussion.  They are also several years old.

Our GEL's last about 9+ years. We also manage our charge profiles by changing temp/coefficient voltage factor, charge & float voltage, etc. Our Xantrex 2000 (new style) gives us full control to create a custom profile including voltage increase as battery temperature increases or decreases from 70-degrees.

We also set our gen autostart a little higher at about 12.2 or 12.3 to catch those times when I plug in to shore pedestal, but forget to turn pedestal breaker on. After a few hours of watching TV the gen starts to remind us.

With all batteries wired in parallel, it is impossible to know how each battery is sharing loads and charging. Years ago, after we connected a separate shunt to each of our 8G8D 225-amp-hr GEL batteries, we instantly learned that one battery had zero amps our & in. It was not apparent because one of these 150-pound batteries have a lot of capacity.  At that time East Penn / MK replaced the dead 8G8D battery.

Currently our two batteries are not sharing equally. Our Shunt / amp meters show one discharging more than the other and also accepting accepting a higher amp charge. Figuring it could be the shunts, we swapped batteries but not the wiring and the out of balance moved to the other amp meter. The difference is about 10+ amps and we are not doing anything about it.

Point is without separate shunts, we can not be sure of our bank capacity, but then if we get through the night who cares? So why bother to wire separate shunts.

Solar is fun to play with.  It's really cool making energy from sun light.  If you can afford it, put some on your coach.  It looks high tech, and is a good conversation topic at camp fires.  Don't stress over whether it is "worthwhile" or not - just enjoy the learning experience.

Let me the rephrase my original statement, rather than dry camping I should say boondocking, as in not in a camp ground.

I always treated them as if they were interchangeable words. I don't like to change words depending if we are in a undeveloped area or at a campsite with only a fire pit and table.

Pierce

How is this significant reduction accomplished in your particular case? Do you have an automated or a manual process? If you have previously explained this then just post the link since I seem to have missed it and cannot locate it now.

Pretty simple, turn inverter battery charge off, [if on shore power] and run refrigerator off inverter. Solar charges the batteries and runs refrigerator via inverter. Many with solar can run the whole coach,[except ac's] without gen or shore power.

Sorry, I should have made it clear that I was asking Roger how he accomplishes this in his particular installation with multiple battery banks powering multiple inverters.

Believe premise is the same, no matter how many inverters or battery banks. Solar charges batteries, inverters{s] run equipment.

Roger is clearly a lover of technology and so I would think that his use of an elegant automated  solution would be at least as likely as would his use of a manual turn-off-the-charger solution.

David, no big secret here. I am not sure of the exact mechanism here but with solar power coming in through the Victron Solar Charge Controller the Victron Multiplus charge side appears to not charge anymore than it needs to in addition to the solar charge to meet the charge profile  All of this equipment is interconnected and controlled through the Color Control GX.  With no solar the charger would be on and charging at some rate all of the time.

When we are somewhere where there seems to be enough sun we frequently turn off the big inverter/charger.  There is enough solar to keep up with 12v demand including the small inverter that runs the refrigerator, all of the front end electronics and most of our device charging and still charge the batteries.  By the middle of the afternoon they are fully charged.  The 120v landline is still connected and runs the AH and the other 120v stuff when we need it.  The difference is charging the batteries.  It doesn't seem like much but in a month we were about $50 less than our FT U320 neighbors.  Maybe they just used a lot more than we did but probably not.  If there is not much sun we turn on the charger to keep up. Even if we leave it on it charges less when there is solar coming in at the same time.

3KWh per day for a month at typical CG electric rates is about $120.  Saving half of that by using solar is significant.  Pretty easy to do.  We have seen this three times now.  The monthly electric charge has been less  than we expected.  Our experience with solar has been positive.  We are glad we did it.

My setup is designed to maximize duration under a stressful load (mid winter, cold, overnight).  My requirements. Yours might be different.
A Second House Battery Bank, Solar Panels, 2 New Inverters (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=31957.0)

Newb question what $ per watt do you shoot for standard size 2 sq meter panels. They are not available on Craigslist here so will have to buy new. most bang for the buck and maybe then next level better is normally how i do things.

I bought 10 300 watt commercial panels (39x77) in Las Vegas shipped to MN for $158 per panel.  Sold six for what I paid.  Retail for the same thing is probably twice that.  Lots of panel sources, shop around.  Civic Solar is an OK source.  The panels I got were spares from giant commercial solar projects in Nevada.  If I knew what I know know I would have bought lots more.  We have 30 325 watt panels on the house.  120% of our total annual consumption at home
.

I have much the same equipment as Roger and could leave my charger on, and solar would do the heavy lifting, but I like to keep track of my solar production, and if charger does some of the work, solar controllers might go to float and stop charging. Have tried it with charger on and charger off.  In this case, think it is just personal preference.
By the way, in my case, turning charger on or off, is one push of a button on bluetooth tablet I have in coach.

Thank you, drives me crazy, gen sets of most any kind (there are some super quite ones), at the ocean, or in Qsite dry camping.....That rumble, can't sleep. I will never run mine while around anyone. Our 97 has 800 hrs, had 750 of them when we bought it 2 1/2 years ago.

At Faria Park Rincon Beach Calif (among other places)., I have had people set their portable up, of coarse right on my patio because their shore cord is there. Fire it up, run it all day, while they sit and watch TV at the ocean. Blows my mind.

We have 450 watts solar, 3 8d wets, all LED lights. I run the overhead 300 watt inverter 24/7 to keep the Sat receiver loaded, and watch in-motion TV.Have dry camped for weeks. If no one is close, we run the gen set 1 hour in the am to make coffee and blow drier. That's it, and only because it brings the batts down too much to run the mack daddy inverter!

We have a blue flame to heat with, in the coldest of coldest, never run the LP heater when dry camping.

Thanks for letting me vent
Chris

P.S. I have tons of extra holes, that is why God made bondo and paint (or gelcoat)

You are the master boon docker, just make sure your new place has 50 amp hookup for us Bruce.... :D

covered parking too 😎👍

You got it, and a pool, and free WiFi

I started off wanting to add "some solar", as I progressed, I ended up upgrading everything. If I decided to dry camp I did not want to be marginal, I wanted more than adequate.
I ended up with 4panels 300watts each that I was lucky enough to buy from Roger. They run on a Victron charge controller. I added 2 more LG 360watt panels on there own Victron Charge controller. Just shy of 2000 watts of solar.
I wanted plenty of battery storage capacity and went with (10) Lifeline L16 AGM 6v batteries, 400amps@20% per battery =6v, 4000amps@20% = 2000amps @12v = 1000amps @ 50%. I had to make a new battery bay out of part of one storage bay.
I installed a Victron Multi 3000watt inverter charger, Victron color monitor and battery monitor.
All my solar panels will tilt without going on the roof to do the tilting.
Do I have any regrets, ya, I would never spend this much time or money on a coach as old as the one I have. I should have bought a never coach and then did the upgrades.

This is an either or situation.. Glamis nor Dumont (and other places) do not have campgrounds... Its like quartzite.. park where you want and rung what you brung..

Wow nice work.  That much solar should keep the Lifelines up very well.

Chris, I like your thoughts on running gen when parked next to someone, and agree on the watching TV while parked next to ocean. When we are in that kind of location we sit on a seat and have a glass of wine watching the waves etc.
Our gen also has 840 hrs in 19 yrs and 800  was the number when we bought it 10 yrs ago this August.
Like Jim C mentioned our main inverter battery charging side is off all the time as I let solar do what ever it can all the time and the Lifelines are 8 yrs old and seem to be holding up well. Regarding the looped wiring that Barry mentions for the batteries, I got rid of that by putting in Copper Bus Bars and connected each battery individually to them. They also each have a desulphator running all the time.
This system looks to be running fine as we are never low on power for whatever we want to do. One big caveat I guess is we also do not use our AC units, we use fans to blow a cool movement of air.
JohnH 

Genny = Fumes = Bad for your, and your kids health. Costly, clattering noise maker.
Solar = Fun, free, silent, feel-good power.

Not to mention generator and neighbor relations 😬🤬🤬

That said, my genny saved my butt while boondocking in Wisconsin snow storms this past April.

I like both.
I was lucky enough to buy a coach that both po's put in solar.  And lithium. And a 12 volt marine fridge. Great for the boondocking I hope to one day do.
I have a 10Kv generator. Great for running down the highway with the AC on in a 95 degree humid Texas day. The dash air can't do the job.
I would not have a RV without solar, or a boat. But neither would  I want one without a genset.
Best of both worlds. Just be careful where you put your feet when up on the roof!!  ;)