Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: The Soft Boulders on June 06, 2019, 12:47:57 am
Title: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 06, 2019, 12:47:57 am
The engine has been emitting a small bit of white smoke since we've owned it. I thought it was due to a bad turbo because the engine was rebuilt in 2017 and the invoice from the repair mentioned a damaged turbo. We were planning on replacing the turbo when the time came. A couple of weeks ago we had to have our exhaust manifold gaskets replaced because one blew out sometime during our trip (the same one is leaking again). The mechanic reiterated what the invoice said and the the turbo needed replaced. We got to WV, I replaced the turbo and the smoke was still there. On the test drive to check the turbo the engine ran great but while we were heading down the mountain on our way back the engine blew a huge cloud of white smoke out the exhaust. It only happened once during descent and it was during deceleration. After that it didn't seem to smoke at all the rest of the test drive and it was still running great.
When I started it again two days ago the engine began emitting large amounts of white smoke. It smokes at idle and it smokes worse when it's revved. The engine seems to idle smoothly but It smokes the same after the engine is warmed up as well. The exhaust does not really smell sweet nor does it smell strongly of diesel and it's not really acrid. It just smells like old diesel engine exhaust to me. There doesn't appear to be any water in the oil or oil in the antifreeze. I don't believe that it is water vapor and am sure it is smoke. The engine oil level does not appear to be dropping over time. I haven't found a glass fuel bowl anywhere to see if there is air in fuel.
I have called a couple of Cummins shops and they said it sounds like a fuel system problem. They named a few things it could be but none of them were interested in looking at it. There are no other shops in the area and I'm not sure if it's a good idea to try and drive the coach a long distance with the way it is smoking.
I'm in uncharted waters here. We have the operation and maintenance manual but it's not too specific. Ordering a service manual is first on the list. I'm not a diesel mechanic but would like to try and diagnose the problem. If anyone has any suggestions I would be interested to hear them.
Thank you
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Tim on June 06, 2019, 05:55:51 am
My 8.3 smokes when cold on startup.
Causes from the web:
Faulty or damaged injectors Incorrect injection timing (could be a worn timing gear or damaged crankshaft keyway).
Low cylinder compression (eg caused by leaking or broken valves, piston ring sticking, cylinder and/or ring wear, or cylinder glaze)...
Raw diesel coming through the exhaust completely intact and unburned.
Water entering combustion spaces. Faulty head gaskets and cracked cylinder heads or blocks are a common cause of water entry, and are often to blame. Unfortunately, expensive mechanical repair is the only proper solution here.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Pamela & Mike on June 06, 2019, 06:31:12 am
It could be the oil seal in the new turbo is faulty. Even though you can't see any oil loss on the dip stick it don't take much oil to make a lot of smoke. This can look like white smoke even though it is oil.
With the 2nd exhaust manifold gasket failure you need to check the manifold for warpage and correct that before installing another gasket. If the manifold is warped have it surfaced and you will be better off than a new manifold in most cases due to heat warpage of the new manifold. The old one has went through untold number of heat cycles so it has most likely done all the warping it is going to do.
Mike
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on June 06, 2019, 10:11:02 am
If it's a bad turbo, you will 'eat oil for lunch' and smoke white/grey all the time; more when it's colder outside when climbing. We blew one, replaced it and it STILL SMOKED! Pulled the whole top end apart, had everything checked out and found nothing. Pulled the turbo and found the seals were shot on the new one! The REP replaced it n/c, but I ate the labor. We could only figure the 'new' one had sat on the shelf too long and the seals had dried out. :headwall:
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Old Toolmaker on June 06, 2019, 10:23:33 am
I'm in uncharted waters here. We have the operation and maintenance manual but it's not too specific. Ordering a service manual is first on the list. I'm not a diesel mechanic but would like to try and diagnose the problem. If anyone has any suggestions I would be interested to hear them.
Thank you
Let's start with a basic assumption here because white smoke is usually unburned fuel. If it was anti-freeze from a bad head gasket you can smell the antifreeze and if you rub your hands in the exhaust you'll feel the anti freeze. BTDT.
Does your maintenance manual outline the ignition timing procedure? If you have a mechanical engine, you time the injector pump using timing pin(s). One for top dead center on the engine and one for the pump.
Do the simple things first.
Art Joly
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 06, 2019, 10:58:51 am
I think the key here may be the engine rebuild in 2017. White smoke is normal during startup, especially in cold weather. White smoke during normal driving is not. The white smoke from coolant at first looks the same as startup smoke but quickly dissipates and since your coolant level is not going down, you can rule that out. Does your engine start quickly? Did they check or replace the fuel supply hose? Air in the system can cause intermittent amounts of diesel injected and can result in white smoke. A lift pump that was not replaced at the overhaul could be failing causing low pressure and insufficient fuel in the Bosch P pump. Also could be the cause of the white smoke. This is one of the reasons I installed a pressure gauge on the secondary filter discharge/outlet as it checks on filter condition, lift pump, air leaks, etc.
White smoke from other than a fuel supply problem usually occurs after combustion and since you have a four stroke diesel, there is a possibility that an oil ring might have been installed upside down or damaged and some oil is going out on the exhaust stroke. Another possible reason could be worn/damaged exhaust guides/seals. But the first think I would look at is the turbo seal after you are sure you don't have air in the fuel system. Even a small amount will produce a white smoke with a possible blueish cast to it. It usually has an odor to it and if you have someone follow you, they can do a smell test.
Injectors with a bad pattern usually show up as poor starting. Once the engine is warm, a torn injector pattern will probably only show up as increased smog emissions.
Injector timing could be off. Easy to check.
What kind of overhaul did the shop do? New set of pistons/liners. What kind of head work was done? Cummins shop?
Phone calls to Cummins and their answer was probably correct with the fuel system diagnosis. I would start there and go to engine mechanicals after that. Any diesel issues are probably due 80% to the fuel system. Since your engine is using no oil or coolant, I would lean to Cummins answers first.
Pierce
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Protech Racing on June 06, 2019, 11:06:52 am
Faulty injector. Run a balance test. Let it skip long enough for the smoke to diminish.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 06, 2019, 11:47:27 am
I have removed the intake and exhaust pipes on the turbo and there is no oil or residue. There is white smoke coming from the leaking manifold gasket so I don't think it's the turbo. We ran the generator under load to see it would smoke as well maybe indicating water in the fuel. The generator wasn't smoking but dies after about 10 minutes for some reason. I'm not sure how long smoke would linger vs steam but it doesn't seem to hang around in the air like smoke from a fire.
The engine starts and idles fine. I have ordered both the shop service manual and the related troubleshooting manual to help me visualize what everyone is talking about.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 06, 2019, 12:04:44 pm
Unless you need a new fuel filter, your generator is dying because it has air in the feed line. Our U300 is the same year and the supply line from the tank had millions of microscopic cracks that were letting air in. Tough to see without a magnifying glass. Super easy to check by substituting a three foot hose from a gallon container of diesel and then running the generator with at least one roof air on. If it keeps running, you have a bad supply hose.
Easy to change. Buy a 25 foot roll of good hose as it's much cheaper that way. Don't even have to pull the generator out. Use a long rod like a straight brake line to feed it though the bulkhead hole into the fuel tank compartment. Don't connect it to the old hose as Foretravel didn't install the OEM hose in a straight line so may get hung up if you do it that way. And don't view the Foretravel on YouTube as its wrong.
Your engine feed line may have the same problem and is allowing air into the system.
Pierce
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 06, 2019, 03:09:13 pm
If it's a bad turbo, you will 'eat oil for lunch' and smoke white/grey all the time; more when it's colder outside when climbing. We blew one, replaced it and it STILL SMOKED! Pulled the whole top end apart, had everything checked out and found nothing. Pulled the turbo and found the seals were shot on the new one! The REP replaced it n/c, but I ate the labor. We could only figure the 'new' one had sat on the shelf too long and the seals had dried out. :headwall:
Did it smoke on first start up when the engine and components were still cold? I would think the turbo would have to be hot in order to turn the oil into smoke but I dont know. I'm going to be pulling the manifold to have it resurfaced and might send the turbo back to have them check it over.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on June 06, 2019, 03:20:28 pm
I would think the turbo would have to be hot in order to turn the oil into smoke but I dont know. I'm going to be pulling the manifold to have it resurfaced and might send the turbo back to have them check it over.
Mine smoked right away. Would not hurt to have someone take a look at the turbo, though.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Protech Racing on June 06, 2019, 04:27:23 pm
If it's not losing oil , it is not the turbo . If it is not losing water, it is not gaskets. The most likely smoke source is the fuel .
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on June 06, 2019, 06:58:35 pm
Mine smoked right away. Would not hurt to have someone take a look at the turbo, though.
The tech at the turbo shop said if there was no oil on the turbine wheels then the turbo was not leaking oil. It's dry on both the intake and exhaust sides.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 06, 2019, 07:29:27 pm
Thanks for all the good info guys. I'm not sure how to do some of the things suggested so there's lots to research. I haven't had any luck finding anyone that is interested in working on it but The shop manuals will be here Tuesday.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Travelin' Man (RIP) on June 06, 2019, 07:37:48 pm
Where are you? Are there any bar rooms nearby, or a fire department? I've had good luck mining bars for both info and labor. The fire department may provide a diesel mechanic that wants to moonlight according to Pierce Stewart.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on June 06, 2019, 07:51:24 pm
Where are you? Are there any bar rooms nearby, or a fire department? I've had good luck mining bars for both info and labor. The fire department may provide a diesel mechanic that wants to moonlight according to Pierce Stewart.
X2....I found a mechanic from the local City Dept. of Public Works that did great (cheap) work for me!
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on June 06, 2019, 08:01:37 pm
I know ONE THING: with a smoking turbo you can drive from Arizona to Washington State with only pollution; no other damage. I don't think I'd drive to NAC unless I really knew what was what.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Chuck Pearson on June 06, 2019, 09:48:52 pm
Pierce's suggestion is an easy way to rule out air in fuel issues. Two gallon plastic fuel can, few feet of hose. Change out fuel filters first if you haven't already done so. No diesel tolerates less than near perfect fuel delivery.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 06, 2019, 10:27:56 pm
Faulty injector. Run a balance test. Let it skip long enough for the smoke to diminish.
I was thinking about pulling the injectors and sending them somewhere to be tested. It would definitely help with the process of elimination anyway and it's something I feel like I might be able to figure out how to do. Does having the injectors tested sound like a good idea?
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 06, 2019, 10:44:26 pm
Pierce's suggestion is an easy way to rule out air in fuel issues. Two gallon plastic fuel can, few feet of hose. Change out fuel filters first if you haven't already done so. No diesel tolerates less than near perfect fuel delivery.
I had read a few threads about changing fuel lines and was curious if this was something that I needed to do this is something I will try and attempt. There's so many things to do my head is beginning to spin. I really don't know if we're capable of doing it all.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on June 06, 2019, 10:49:11 pm
I had read a few threads about changing fuel lines and was curious if this was something that I needed to do this is something I will try and attempt. There's so many things to do my head is beginning to spin. I really don't know if we're capable of doing it all.
You are not alone: take the easy ones first: avoid the 'dark side', know when to seek a pro. Easy does it! Just in case you need a break, I'd suggest this:
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Protech Racing on June 06, 2019, 11:55:50 pm
Googlate balance test. It would be far better to determine and pick the faulty injector before sending them for testing .imho Simply loosen or unplug each injector and wait for the rpm to stabilize. Read the rpm drop for each jug. My guess is that one will slow the smoke and the rpm drop will be less then the rest . That would be the easiest and cheapest fix as we could hope for.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: wolfe10 on June 07, 2019, 08:34:43 am
I had read a few threads about changing fuel lines and was curious if this was something that I needed to do this is something I will try and attempt.
A quick check on the condition of the fuel lines, as they usually first crack where they have been expanded to fit over the metal ends:
Go to your primary fuel filter. Look carefully at the fuel lines. You are checking for cracks, usually running on the long axis of the hose. If you see deep cracks, yes, replacement is a good idea. MAY be your problem, but, even if not, it will rear its ugly head at some point soon.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 07, 2019, 09:57:12 am
I have to go with Mike on this one. Its easy for a diesel novice to chase the problem through a maze of possibilities, each failure accompanied by more and more frustration (and credit card debt).
You can loosen the nut on each injector but normally, the beginnings of a fuel restriction or air in the system fool you with a smooth idle. You could clamp off the feed hose at the tank and then put a MityVac on the engine end and watch for a drop indicating a tired hose. You can also proceed to the discharge of the primary, test again and so forth. Your generator problem is going to be hose related like ours for the exact same year coach. I'm just waiting to have to replace our main line. I've sent some coax and HDMI cables to the back so I know the tricks in getting it done the easiest way and the shortest amount of time. With a vinyl wrap cover on the cables, I was able to gently pull from about the rear wheel location and have the cable slide easily from the front center console. Try that with an uncovered fuel hose.
Our generator fuel hose was just a little damp in spots and had no apparent cracks. Only when I bent it and took a magnifying glass to the bend, did I see the millions of little cracks. A couple of years before, it would surge with the ACs going. It did that more and more even after I changed the filter. Then I installed the pressure gauge and then I could see good pressure when it started but the pressure would drop, the dreaded surge would start and then it would die.
So, installing a pressure gauge on the discharge side of the secondary filter is pretty easy and cheap. It will show the idle pressure but using Krush's idea of the GoPro, you can see the pressure when you are wide open throttle on a grade or freeway on ramp. I've even had filters try and fool me and after shutting down, the junk would settle to the bottom, running well the next day for a few miles and then returning with a vengeance. The Cummins lift pumps also cause their share of problems so a pressure gauge with a camera monitor would show that too. Yes, you can just put a sender and send the signal up to the dash through a wire in the extra wire bundle but that will take a lot more time to arrange.
A very, very inexpensive Chinese action camera (GoPro clone) works really well and the 4K versions are better than all but the latest real GoPro cameras. About 2 weeks for delivery. I think mine cost about $40 delivered but had more accessories than most. Even a remote control for the wrist. And to answer the next question, every real/authentic GoPro ever made was made in China so...
chinese action camera | eBay (https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=chinese+action+camera&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_osacat=0&_odkw=chinese+action+camerahttps%3A%2F%2Fofficial.bankspower.com%2Ftech_article%2Fwhy-egt-is-important%2F&LH_TitleDesc=0)
So, it's like gambling on a fight or football game. You figure the percentages and then start where the odds are the best. Eliminate the highest first and you have a basis to go to the next possible remedy if the first didn't work.
Pierce
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 07, 2019, 10:13:41 am
Pulled the manifold off and five of the six exhaust ports have a sticky wet-looking residue on the inside. The front two cylinders are real nasty, the third is a little better and the rest are not as bad. The collector for the first three cylinders at the turbo has a wet glazed look. I'm going to take the manifold to the machine shop and then go to Cummins to pick up new gaskets. Would fuel cause the residue or would it more likely be oil?
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 07, 2019, 10:17:21 am
Cylinder no 1
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: John44 on June 07, 2019, 10:24:31 am
First I would find out exactly what they did on the overhaul and let us know.Did they replace the head or rebuild it?
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 07, 2019, 10:54:33 am
Looks like oil to me and the cause of your smoke. Do you have the receipt for all the work/parts replaced during the overhaul? Many different levels and quality of overhauls. Did they just put new rings on the pistons or use a complete cylinder kit with new liners and pistons? How about valves, valve guides, valve seals? Was this a Cummins shop or ? Turbo seals failure are usually accompanied by lots of smoke all the time. The seal failure also means high EGTs that can cause internal engine damage.
As you can see on this ebay page, there are a lot of different overhaul kits from mail order kits complete even including valves from $888 to the Mahle kits for more than twice the money and without the valves, etc. Mahle is a German company with their pistons found OEM in Porsche, etc. cummins 8.3 overhaul kit | eBay (https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=cummins+8.3+overhaul+kit&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&rmvSB=true&_osacat=0&_odkw=132521456791+)
Hope you don't have to pull it down.
Pierce
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on June 07, 2019, 11:54:59 am
Looks like oil. Turbo seals failure are usually accompanied by lots of smoke all the time. The seal failure also means high EGTs that can cause internal engine damage.
I'd say oil, as well. I lucked out when I blew my turbo, limped back from AZ up to WA with no damage.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: oldguy on June 07, 2019, 04:29:06 pm
Water causes white smoke, a friend said low compression will cause white smoke. If you are pulling your injectors out do a compression test. Oil causes blue smoke and a blown turbo the smoke is black.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on June 07, 2019, 04:58:28 pm
Oil causes blue smoke and a blown turbo the smoke is black.
Nope; mine was blue grey when I blew my turbo; no black, which was odd since I went through the oil like crazy!
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 07, 2019, 05:14:17 pm
Low compression causes hard starting. A low compression engine once running and warm is pretty normal for smoke or fuel mileage. Over fueling causes black smoke (too much throttle on a grade with a mechanical engine). Blown head gasket causes white smoke but it dissipates in seconds. Slow starting in cold weather/high altitude causes lots and lots of white smoke that may cause rocks to be thrown in campgrounds.
P
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Old Toolmaker on June 07, 2019, 05:44:57 pm
Pulled the manifold off and five of the six exhaust ports have a sticky wet-looking residue on the inside. The front two cylinders are real nasty, the third is a little better and the rest are not as bad. The collector for the first three cylinders at the turbo has a wet glazed look. I'm going to take the manifold to the machine shop and then go to Cummins to pick up new gaskets. Would fuel cause the residue or would it more likely be oil?
If you're lucky, you need valves, valve guides and oil seals. FWIW I don't know if Cummins uses oil seals.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 07, 2019, 11:58:45 pm
Got the manifold resurfaced at the machine shop and the new gaskets from Cummins. The service guys spent a lot of time going over things with me. They both felt fairly sure that the injection pump drive gear slipped timing. They said the residue in the ports would be caused by the over fueling. They spent time showing me pictures and explaining how it all worked and how to correct the timing. If that isn't it next thing they said to check was the over flow valve. They printed off 26 pages of instructions for me ha! Ive got the engine barring tool, correct torque wrench and the injection pump gear puller ordered. Everything will be here by Tuesday and I can't check the timing until I get the barring tool to set TDC. We're keeping our fingers crossed that this is the issue.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 08, 2019, 08:45:30 am
If that isn't it next thing they said to check was the over flow valve.
I gotta say I applaud your gumption! You obviously aren't afraid to dive in and get your hands dirty. We appreciate that attitude around here. ^.^d
Of all the possibilities you mention, the overflow valve is the only one I know anything about. I doubt it is the cause of your troubles. Most overflow valve problems are caused by either a weak or broken spring, or a piece of trash on the valve seat holding the valve slightly open. In either case, the result would be LOW fuel pressure (less than 20-30 psi at idle) at the P7100 injection pump inlet. Doesn't sound to me like this would relate to your current difficulties or cause any of the symptoms you describe.
If you are interested in adding a engine compartment fuel pressure gauge to monitor the injection pump inlet pressure, it is pretty easy to do. See the thread linked below. The first post shows the pressure gauge installation. Reply #7 discusses replacing the overflow valve.
Fuel System Science Project (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=21795)
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Old Toolmaker on June 08, 2019, 09:31:38 am
Got the manifold resurfaced at the machine shop and the new gaskets from Cummins. The service guys spent a lot of time going over things with me. They both felt fairly sure that the injection pump drive gear slipped timing. They said the residue in the ports would be caused by the over fueling. They spent time showing me pictures and explaining how it all worked and how to correct the timing. If that isn't it next thing they said to check was the over flow valve. They printed off 26 pages of instructions for me ha! Ive got the engine barring tool, correct torque wrench and the injection pump gear puller ordered. Everything will be here by Tuesday and I can't check the timing until I get the barring tool to set TDC. We're keeping our fingers crossed that this is the issue.
If you have the basic mechanical skill set, you're better off taking care of this much yourself. Last thing you want to do is turn your engine over to a shop that doesn't want your business. Word of hard earned advice? If you start to experience "get thereitis" step back and walk away. Focusing too much on the end brings on its own form of tunnel vision.
Post Script. From 1997-2007 I tried to build a hot-metal "society" press. One night I was finishing up setting a job on the Linotype and my partner came in and said "It's getting late, you're getting frustrated it's time to quit for the day." I was goal focused. I brushed Lynn off, defeated a safety device and watched a cascade of type metal flow over the top of the mold and down the front of the machine. What is known in the trade as a squirt. We went home.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 08, 2019, 10:13:10 am
I gotta say I applaud your gumption! You obviously aren't afraid to dive in and get your hands dirty. We appreciate that attitude around here. ^.^d
Of all the possibilities you mention, the overflow valve is the only one I know anything about. I doubt it is the cause of your troubles. Most overflow valve problems are caused by either a weak or broken spring, or a piece of trash on the valve seat holding the valve slightly open. In either case, the result would be LOW fuel pressure (less than 20-30 psi at idle) at the P7100 injection pump inlet. Doesn't sound to me like this would relate to your current difficulties or cause any of the symptoms you describe.
If you are interested in adding a engine compartment fuel pressure gauge to monitor the injection pump inlet pressure, it is pretty easy to do. See the thread linked below. The first post shows the pressure gauge installation. Reply #7 discusses replacing the overflow valve.
Fuel System Science Project (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=21795)
The guy at cummins was saying something similar about the overflow valve actually causing under fueling. I haven't done a lot of digging on the overflow valve yet but will definitely do some more research on it. The fuel pressure gauge would be a nice addition for sure!
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 08, 2019, 10:30:41 am
The guy at cummins was saying something similar about the overflow valve actually causing under fueling.
You will see in the first post of that thread I linked, our engine fuel pressure at the injection pump inlet was only 3 psi when I started my fuel system project. In other words it was very low. I did have a mild "starting" problem that may have been related to the low fuel pressure, but our old coach seemed to otherwise run fine (no smoke). I never experienced anything like the symptoms you are seeing.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 08, 2019, 10:56:18 am
If you have the basic mechanical skill set, you're better off taking care of this much yourself. Last thing you want to do is turn your engine over to a shop that doesn't want your business. Word of hard earned advice? If you start to experience "get thereitis" step back and walk away. Focusing too much on the end brings on its own form of tunnel vision.
Post Script. From 1997-2007 I tried to build a hot-metal "society" press. One night I was finishing up setting a job on the Linotype and my partner came in and said "It's getting late, you're getting frustrated it's time to quit for the day." I was goal focused. I brushed Lynn off, defeated a safety device and watched a cascade of type metal flow over the top of the mold and down the front of the machine. What is known in the trade as a squirt. We went home.
I've had the "get thereitis" a few times. Luckily on these type of projects I have so many things to learn it keeps me from getting too ahead of myself.
I'm not familiar with a hot metal press. It sounds cool though and if it took ten years to build it must be a complicated machine! A "cascade of type metal" sounds wild! Ha
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Old Toolmaker on June 08, 2019, 12:35:30 pm
I've had the "get thereitis" a few times. Luckily on these type of projects I have so many things to learn it keeps me from getting too ahead of myself.
Anything like this requires surgical cleanliness. I used to have a friend who seemingly loved to clean as long as I did the bits that required finesse. I miss him. All the more so when I looked closely at my engine for the first time.
As far as the Linotype goes, their era ended in the 1970s with the advent of computers. A Linotype and its competitor the Intertype was a 2800 pound mechanical typewriter that composed matrices, metal type molds, in a line then cast that line with molten type metal and delivered it neatly to a galley. I can set hand type, I can even distribute hand type, I choose not to do so.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: John44 on June 08, 2019, 12:52:49 pm
Boulder,have turned my engine over to run the valves without timing tool,take the 4 small bolts off the outermost pulley on the harmonic balancer,you can then see 4 bigger bolts,you can turn the engine over with a socket on one bolt if you go slow or get 2 extra long bolts and use a prybar,go slow to allow the compression to dissipate.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Roland Begin on June 08, 2019, 02:30:57 pm
Boulder,have turned my engine over to run the valves without timing tool,take the 4 small bolts off the outermost pulley on the harmonic balancer,you can then see 4 bigger bolts,you can turn the engine over with a socket on one bolt if you go slow or get 2 extra long bolts and use a prybar,go slow to allow the compression to dissipate.
I will have to try that, it is much closer to the timing pin than the flywheel.
I have a question on rotating the engine at the flywheel. Would I need to turn the ratchet counterclockwise in order to rotate the engine clockwise? The barring tool access is at the lower left side of the block. In my mind if I turn the ratchet clockwise then the flywheel would be spinning counterclockwise.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: John44 on June 08, 2019, 10:36:28 pm
You'll be able to follow which way it turns,it's a slow process,just make sure it's turning the same direction when it's running. The name of the aftermarket overflo valve is tork tek,they have the valve and a adaptor to install a guage.The stock spring and bearing wears over time and creates low pressure.Are there any marks on your harmonic balancer that anyone made to indicate tdc?,sometimes they will mark it.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 09, 2019, 12:40:02 am
The guy at cummins was saying something similar about the overflow valve actually causing under fueling. I haven't done a lot of digging on the overflow valve yet but will definitely do some more research on it. The fuel pressure gauge would be a nice addition for sure!
Overflow valve is on the back side and next to the block on most Bosch P injection pumps. The little ball inside gets little microscopic valleys worn in it and it lets too much fuel go back to the tank and not enough in the injection pump itself. Super easy to change and not that expensive. There is just a spring and ball inside. As I recall, I just added a "T" in the outlet of the secondary filter and screwed the gauge into that. You need a gauge that is filled with liquid or the needle bounces around and hard to get a reading.
Pierce
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 09, 2019, 03:29:47 pm
Got the exhaust manifold put back on this morning, going to wait until I can properly torque the bolts before I put the turbo back on. Had to tap every bolt hole in the head because the bolts did not want to go in. There's no way I could have gotten an accurate torque reading with the how difficult the bolts wanted to go in. Tried to find TDC by using the harmonic balancer to rotate the engine. I could not get the pin to locate in the gear. Maybe the barring tool will allow us to rotate the engine more smoothly. The timing in is between the injection pump and the air compressor and is a real pain to reach. It was seized and had to be taken out and cleaned so it would slide back and forth smoothly. Any ideas on getting the timing pin to seat?
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Old Toolmaker on June 09, 2019, 04:17:48 pm
Tried to find TDC by using the harmonic balancer to rotate the engine. I could not get the pin to locate in the gear. Maybe the barring tool will allow us to rotate the engine more smoothly. The timing in is between the injection pump and the air compressor and is a real pain to reach. It was seized and had to be taken out and cleaned so it would slide back and forth smoothly. Any ideas on getting the timing pin to seat?
The barring tool will make it easier to find the seat for the timing pin. It's real easy to skip over the hole.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 09, 2019, 05:05:02 pm
The barring tool will make it easier to find the seat for the timing pin. It's real easy to skip over the hole.
That's good news! I thought for sure it was hitting it in one particular place but never could get it.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: John44 on June 09, 2019, 06:20:28 pm
Just an idea,if you still have trouble you could take the injectors out to relieve compression,not sure how easy or hard that would be.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Roland Begin on June 10, 2019, 11:32:20 am
Quote"Had to tap every bolt hole in the head because the bolts did not want to go in. There's no way I could have gotten an accurate torque reading with the how difficult the bolts wanted to go in".
I hope you were aware of what type of threads you had metric or sae. Someone had used sae threaded bolts on my exhaust manifold that required metric threaded bolts.
Roland
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Chuck Pearson on June 10, 2019, 02:07:33 pm
I hope you were aware of what type of threads you had metric or sae. Someone had used sae threaded bolts on my exhaust manifold that required metric threaded bolts. Roland
Ouch. Also best to use the specific bolts from Cummins I am told. Properly heat treated, right stretch etc. Yep, they metric. And somewhat expensive. There is some nickel/moly antisieze good for 2500 degrees. Manifold bolt wars, lived through em too.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Roland Begin on June 10, 2019, 08:33:21 pm
Ouch. Also best to use the specific bolts from Cummins I am told. Properly heat treated, right stretch etc. Yep, they metric.
Some monkey used bolts from Ace hardware on our Cummins. Yes I'm serious not joking. As a matter of fact the money broke a bolt and replaced it by drilling a hole and putting in a nut and a bolt. How's that for an idiot?
Rolls d
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 12, 2019, 08:01:00 am
Quote"Had to tap every bolt hole in the head because the bolts did not want to go in. There's no way I could have gotten an accurate torque reading with the how difficult the bolts wanted to go in".
I hope you were aware of what type of threads you had metric or sae. Someone had used sae threaded bolts on my exhaust manifold that required metric threaded bolts.
Roland
The tap size is M10-1.5, it is the same as the studs for the turbo. The bolts are not cheap either, for two exhaust bolts, four studs,four nuts and one turbo gasket was $150.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 12, 2019, 08:17:19 am
Never could find TDC with the timing pin. Pulled the valve cover and found TDC on compression stroke by dropping a valve on cylinder no. 1 and rotating the engine until the cylinder bumped it. Used a dial indicator to measure .004 of deflection on the valve and marked the spot on the harmonic balancer then loosened the valve, rotated the cylinder past the valve, turned the valve back down to the same spot and the repeated the process in reverse. Splitting the difference between the two marks on the balancer should give me exact TDC. There is no way to get a finger in the timing pin hole to try and feel for the timing slot in the gear. Going to call Cummins today and make sure that this method will work before I proceed further.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 12, 2019, 08:28:19 am
Question for my own enlightenment:
Why is finding TDC on this engine so complicated? Why can't they just put timing marks on the harmonic balancer like they do on all the gasoline engines? There may be a simple answer to this, but I have no experience with the process of "timing" diesel engines.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 12, 2019, 09:14:36 am
Why is finding TDC on this engine so complicated? Why can't they just put timing marks on the harmonic balancer like they do on all the gasoline engines? There may be a simple answer to this, but I have no experience with the process of "timing" diesel engines.
I don't know for sure, This is the first time I've had to find the timing on any type of engine. The timing pin would make it pretty simple. It seems that there is some difference of opinion out there about how precisely the timing needs to be measured.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Old Toolmaker on June 12, 2019, 09:33:52 am
I don't know for sure, This is the first time I've had to find the timing on any type of engine. The timing pin would make it pretty simple. It seems that there is some difference of opinion out there about how precisely the timing needs to be measured.
Regarding the precision of ignition timing, with the advent of computers and the search for engine efficiency, we find that ignition timing is specific for engine load, engine speed, and doesn't present as a smooth curve. Your computer controlled diesel engine is quiet(er) because the electronic fuel injection squirts in a tiny amount of fuel before delivering that which is required by power demand. That diesel knock we all knew and loved was simply delayed ignition. Cetane rating is simply a method of telling us how easily diesel fuel will ignite.
Ford's "A" model uses a timing pin to find top dead center. The Ford timing pin drops into a dimple in the timing gear. It too is difficult to find, the Cummins all the more so because the timing pin needs to drop into a tightly fitted hole. Slow and steady wins the race.
FWIW, my plans for the day are called on account of rain. I was going to work on reducing 5 32-quart containers of stuff with the ultimate goal of having everything we need stored in the bays.
Before we start traveling again, along with all of the other things you do to an undocumented used purchase, I want to: Find my engine serial number. Purchase a service manual. Confirm that the cold start timing advance is behaving properly, id est, going back to normal once the engine is warm.
My ride height is fine. Money is set aside for new torsion bars and shackles.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 12, 2019, 10:26:29 am
Location of data plate (with ESN) on my C8.3 - if you have the B5.9 it may be in the same place:
Standing at the back, looking at engine. See the air conditioning compressor - directly below that is a flat sheet metal engine cover with the "oil fill" hole in the middle. At the top right corner of this cover, on the edge, you'll see the black engine data plate. The fuel injection pump is directly behind it.
Once you have the ESN, you might like to visit Cummins QuickServe.com and Cummins Parts.com. You can register your engine for free, and find a wealth of valuable data pertaining to your specific engine. This is the exact same info the high paid Cummins techs see on their shop computer.
Genuine Cummins Parts (https://parts.cummins.com/#/)
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 12, 2019, 10:51:20 am
Injection pump timing was spot on with engine TDC. I don't know what else to do. I found a mechanic to come and loom at it today. I feel like a failure :(
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Old Toolmaker on June 12, 2019, 11:00:43 am
Location of data plate (with ESN) on my C8.3 - if you have the B5.9 it may be in the same place:
Standing at the back, looking at engine. See the air conditioning compressor - directly below that is a flat sheet metal engine cover with the "oil fill" hole in the middle. At the top right corner of this cover, on the edge, you'll see the black engine data plate. The fuel injection pump is directly behind it.
Once you have the ESN, you might like to visit Cummins QuickServe.com and Cummins Parts.com. You can register your engine for free, and find a wealth of valuable data pertaining to your specific engine. This is the exact same info the high paid Cummins techs see on their shop computer.
Genuine Cummins Parts (https://parts.cummins.com/#/)
I know that my 5.9's engine serial number is on a sticker on the timing gear cover and underneath the alternator bracket. I also know that I have a rear mounted radiator and charge air cooler.
But thanks for showing me how easy it is to see yours. Maybe someday I'll show you mine.
I have the Allison numbers, created an account then needed an hour of frustration to realize I need java script.
It's raining very well here in southern Georgia. The prediction is for 5-6 inches of rainfall today.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 12, 2019, 11:16:08 am
Injection pump timing was spot on with engine TDC. I don't know what else to do. I found a mechanic to come and look at it today. I feel like a failure :(
Trying to solve this problem, you have worked harder and done much more on your own than most of us would.
When the solution to a particularly thorny problem eludes you, asking for help is not weakness - it is a sign of intelligence.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Protech Racing on June 12, 2019, 11:41:47 am
Most modern drives are not prone to jumping timing . They may sag a few degrees due to system wear. Did you ever do the balance test? Did you pull the injectors and look for pintle/valve failure.?
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 12, 2019, 12:02:27 pm
Don't be; we all have the tendency to 'go to the dark side' and miss what is obvious to some kind soul who is a thousand miles away! That's what the forum is for b^.^d
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 12, 2019, 12:10:51 pm
Most modern drives are not prone to jumping timing . They may sag a few degrees due to system wear. Did you ever do the balance test? Did you pull the injectors and look for pintle/valve failure.?
I did not do a balance test. I was really focused on the timing and became too overwhelmed to confidently attempt anything else. My abilities are not what I had hoped they would be.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Protech Racing on June 12, 2019, 12:28:02 pm
Looks like you have the old mechanical style pump/injector system . Simply fire it up, set the idle up a little to maybe 1000RPM. and loosen each injector, measure the RPM drop . Let each hole skip for 30 seconds and see which hole/skip reduces the smoke , if any.
Keep a rag around the pump to collect the fuel that will run out and a fire bottle.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 12, 2019, 01:01:52 pm
Looks like you have the old mechanical style pump/injector system . Simply fire it up, set the idle up a little to maybe 1000RPM. and loosen each injector, measure the RPM drop . Let each hole skip for 30 seconds and see which hole/skip reduces the smoke , if any.
Keep a rag around the pump to collect the fuel that will run out and a fire bottle.
When I pulled the exhaust manifold, five of the six exhaust ports on the head had a sticky oily residue on the inside. Could all of the injectors have went bad at the same time?
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Old Toolmaker on June 12, 2019, 01:02:52 pm
I did not do a balance test. I was really focused on the timing and became too overwhelmed to confidently attempt anything else. My abilities are not what I had hoped they would be.
But your abilities are getting better all the time! Are you lucky enough to have a fuel injection service shop near you? I was thinking of something like this one in New Hampshire. Diesel's Fuel Injection Service Bow NH | Injector Testing, Repair (https://dieselsfuelinjection.com/)
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Old Toolmaker on June 12, 2019, 01:09:08 pm
When I pulled the exhaust manifold, five of the six exhaust ports on the head had a sticky oily residue on the inside. Could all of the injectors have went bad at the same time?
That sticky black oil makes me suspect the exhaust valve guides are allowing oil to get by. That's the next simplest problem. Does the engine start easily?
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 12, 2019, 01:21:54 pm
That sticky black oil makes me suspect the exhaust valve guides are allowing oil to get by. That's the next simplest problem. Does the engine start easily?
The engine starts and idles good. The smoke started all of a sudden so I don't know. Hopefully the mechanic will give us the answer.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 12, 2019, 04:42:50 pm
The mechanic just left and what a super nice guy! We tested the fuel pressure and it was good. Had to remove some intercooler piping and the two air conditioner compressors on the engine to get to the injectors. Pulled all the injectors (one did not want to come out) and did a compression check on all of the cylinders. Each cylinder had around 400 psi, the Book say 300 and up is good. No clear answers presented themselves but he took the injectors with him to flow check them at the shop. Should know by tonight or tomorrow morning what he finds out. It was really cool getting to work along side him, I learned a lot and had a really good time too!
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: craneman on June 12, 2019, 04:45:48 pm
If this happened all of a sudden the turbo should be suspect. White smoke, blue smoke sometimes hard to tell apart.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on June 12, 2019, 04:59:21 pm
If this happened all of a sudden the turbo should be suspect. White smoke, blue smoke smoke sometimes hard to tell apart.
What we have not solved (and I agree with the dreaded 'blue smoke'), is 'are you eating oil for breakfast'? If it's the seals, there will be no noise, just blue smoke and oil consumption, big time. At higher altitudes, the color will change to white; LOTSA WHITE!
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 12, 2019, 08:28:21 pm
The smoke is definitely coming from the engine, the turbo is no longer suspect. I don't know what it is but I know it's not the turbo.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: John44 on June 12, 2019, 08:34:40 pm
Never had my injectors out but now would be the time,if you can stick a dowel or something thru the injector hole and touch the top of the piston you can find TDC once and for all and mark the balancer,it will either be on the compression or exhaust stroke.If on compression you adjust ex valves 1,3,5 and intake 1,2,4 turn it 360 degrees and do the rest.Not sure what you meant by "dropping a valve"that is a mechanics term when a valve breaks and causes engine damage.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 12, 2019, 09:22:42 pm
Not sure what you meant by "dropping a valve"that is a mechanics term when a valve breaks and causes engine damage.
I made a timing reference with a piece of solid strand wire. One end was attached to a bolt on the front of the engine and the other I bent to point at the harmonic balancer. I used the lash adjustment to force the exhaust valve open, then Hannah slowly rotated the engine clockwise with the barring tool and ratchet until the piston bumped into the valve. I marked the harmonic balancer at the wire reference mark. I then adjusted the valve closed, had Hannah rotate the engine until the piston was past TDC and on it's way down. Then adjust the valve back down and rotate the engine counterclockwise until it bumps the valve again. Make another mark on the balancer. Since the engine is actually at TDC for a few degrees the two marks were about 1 1/4 inches apart. Split the difference between the two Mark's and that is exact TDC.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: John44 on June 12, 2019, 09:28:48 pm
Would just make sure all the valves are adjusted correctly.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 12, 2019, 09:37:01 pm
With the 2nd exhaust manifold gasket failure you need to check the manifold for warpage and correct that before installing another gasket. If the manifold is warped have it surfaced
After having the manifold surfaced, I installed the new gaskets and torqued to spec before we fired the engine. Before the engine started there was an immediate exhaust leak in the same exact spot. The gasket is fine but there looks to be a small gap between it and the head.
Haven't gotten word on the injectors yet. I did check the overflow valve and it is working properly. I'm not sure what to check next and without injectors it would be difficult test. Wondering about the faith I should have in the mechanic. I have a feeling this is going to be another expensive repair.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 18, 2019, 11:20:24 pm
Reading through the posts I see that several people have suggested the fuel hose could be letting air into the system. I will check the hose out in the morning and see if there is any visible damage. The engine is putting out a significant amount of smoke and there is the gunk in the ports. Could air in the line cause that?
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Dave Dunington on June 18, 2019, 11:32:56 pm
In cold weather there is often white smoke , -40 , the Reason, the fuel is not burning completely because the cylinder is not high enough, with air in the fuel system, you get the same result, Unburned fuel... get a crack in the fuel line of your aqua hot, believe me, you will see white smoke... valve adjustment will not cause white smoke, and i doubt it is -40 where you are. I would look for a air leak into the fuel system.... filter gasket, cracked line ??? Safe Travels Dave
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 18, 2019, 11:33:34 pm
Did you ever do the balance test? Did you pull the injectors and look for pintle/valve failure.?
The mechanic broke each fuel line loose at the pump one at a time. The engine reacted to each one he broke loose in the same way; it would run rough until pressure was restored. I couldn't notice a difference in the sound but he noted a slight difference with cylinders 1 and 6 I believe.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Old Toolmaker on June 19, 2019, 09:15:46 am
I really wanted too while the valve cover was off but had too many things on my mind to add one more. Still would like to take a swing at it though!
Now that you own the barring tool and have marked top dead center on the harmonic balancer: Easy Peasey.
FWIW, choose two feeler gauges. One for the minimum clearance and one for the high. Minimum slips in easily, high not at all. sort of a Go - No Go gauge if you will.
FWIW II, I'm still sticking with bad valve seals allowing oil to flow down the exhaust valve stems. That would explain the white smoke. White smoke is unburned oil vapor.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: craneman on June 19, 2019, 10:01:31 am
Why is the turbo no longer suspect? Did I miss something in your posts?
When I removed the turbo this last time the old gasket got tossed because we had a new Cummins gasket. The Cummins gasket turned out to be wrong and there's a gap on either side allowing exhaust gas to escape. The white smoke is coming from before the turbo at that gap and also from the manifold leak. There is no oil anywhere on the turbo, not in the exhaust inlet, not in the exhaust outlet turbine wheel and not in the intake turbine wheel. If the turbo was leaking oil, would we not see oil somewhere? If the oil on the exhaust ports of the head was from the turbo shouldn't there be an oil trail from the turbo to the exhaust ports? There is no oil inside the manifold. There is oily residue concentrated around the mating surfaces of the manifold and head but it's not caused from oil running down the inside of the manifold. I guess it's possible the turbo is causing the issue but there is no evidence of it.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 19, 2019, 12:02:37 pm
Did a visual inspection of the fuel lines and didn't see any obvious cracks or damage anywhere. The fuel lines are a braided aeroquip product with the swivel AN fittings at both ends. They are the original ones I believe because there is numbered tags on the ends. Also changed the fuel filter just to be proactive. The manual shows the water separator and fuel filter to be mounted next to each other on the engine but our water separator is in the compartment with the engine battery.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on June 19, 2019, 12:10:09 pm
I guess it's possible the turbo is causing the issue but there is no evidence of it.
The only 'evidence' you'll see is your blue/grey smoke. Wonder what a fresh one costs? By doing that, you'd take the turbo out of the equation. Remember I had the same thing, replaced the turbo and it STILL SMOKED! I tore the whole top end apart before I realized I had a bad (rebuilt) turbo. Replaced with a fresh one and down the road! ^.^d
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: craneman on June 19, 2019, 12:13:03 pm
When I removed the turbo this last time the old gasket got tossed because we had a new Cummins gasket. The Cummins gasket turned out to be wrong and there's a gap on either side allowing exhaust gas to escape. The white smoke is coming from before the turbo at that gap and also from the manifold leak. There is no oil anywhere on the turbo, not in the exhaust inlet, not in the exhaust outlet turbine wheel and not in the intake turbine wheel. If the turbo was leaking oil, would we not see oil somewhere? If the oil on the exhaust ports of the head was from the turbo shouldn't there be an oil trail from the turbo to the exhaust ports? There is no oil inside the manifold. There is oily residue concentrated around the mating surfaces of the manifold and head but it's not caused from oil running down the inside of the manifold. I guess it's possible the turbo is causing the issue but there is no evidence of it.
The exhaust port blows into the turbo and the turbo blows into the intake you would see more oil in the intake ports than the exhaust.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 19, 2019, 12:31:38 pm
He said the intake holes on the head had the oiley residue,so that was before the turbo and the turbo spun freely.
Bad turbo seals can effect both sides of the turbo. Overfilling crankcase, blockage of the return line, etc can also cause oil to get past the seals. This would result in both smoke out the exhaust and oil in the intake ports. Poor driver eduction and operation allowing heat sink to damage bearings and or seals is frequent.
If not the turbo, check to see if the valve seals were installed properly during the overhaul or even installed at all. Seals can be fitted or replaced without removing the head.
Next would be a piston ring problem, the most costly to fix.
Pierce
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 19, 2019, 02:49:42 pm
Bad turbo seals can effect both sides of the turbo. Overfilling crankcase, blockage of the return line, etc can also cause oil to get past the seals. This would result in both smoke out the exhaust and oil in the intake ports.
Would it be possible that the turbo is not allowing enough oil to pass through it? When you install a new turbo it's important to fill it with oil first, when I tried to it would hardly take any oil at all. I ended up attaching the supply line and filling it with oil then blowing into it to force the oil through the turbo. It didn't seem right to me. Could this cause excessive crankcase pressure? The mechanic noted higher than normal crankcase pressure and there was a new whistle coming from the oil fill on the engine.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 19, 2019, 03:00:00 pm
He said the intake holes on the head had the oiley residue,so that was before the turbo and the turbo spun freely.
There is no oil on the intake side of the head. If that is what I said then it was by mistake. There is a residue on the exhaust side of the head. There is no oil in the intake piping or on the turbo.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Protech Racing on June 19, 2019, 03:03:48 pm
Check your turbo parts picture for restrictor or check ball. Check your manual for install guide. You are correct , most turbos will take oil poured into the inlet tube. Some modern ball bearing units call for less oil .
If the smoke happened all of a sudden it is entirely possible that the shaft seal ring got stuck. The wheel will still spin fine , but oil will pass the shaft seal into the inlet on that end or the same on the hot end. Hot stop with non synthetic oil can stick the hot end ring pretty easily . If the seal ring is stuck it should oil fog all of the exhaust ports pretty evenly. Maybe the farthest ports may stay cleaner but should still show some film. The valve seals may drip oil into the jugs also and may fog some and not all. Valve seals are not an instant failure point usually . They tend to drip some over time and slowly get worse . Unless they were simply crushed on install. Happens a lot with air vavle spring compressor setups. These leak right from the start , most of the time.
RE the ballance test. Did you loosen the lines long enough for a leaking injector to clear out? May take 1 min at each for the oil to burn away and show a change.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 19, 2019, 03:53:29 pm
Check your turbo parts picture for restrictor or check ball. Check your manual for install guide. You are correct , most turbos will take oil poured into the inlet tube. Some modern ball bearing units call for less oil .
If the smoke happened all of a sudden it is entirely possible that the shaft seal ring got stuck. The wheel will still spin fine , but oil will pass the shaft seal into the inlet on that end or the same on the hot end. Hot stop with non synthetic oil can stick the hot end ring pretty easily . If the seal ring is stuck it should oil fog all of the exhaust ports pretty evenly. Maybe the farthest ports may stay cleaner but should still show some film. The valve seals may drip oil into the jugs also and may fog some and not all. Valve seals are not an instant failure point usually . They tend to drip some over time and slowly get worse . Unless they were simply crushed on install. Happens a lot with air vavle spring compressor setups. These leak right from the start , most of the time.
RE the ballance test. Did you loosen the lines long enough for a leaking injector to clear out? May take 1 min at each for the oil to burn away and show a change.
We didn't recieve a parts diagram with the new turb but I did follow the instructions in our shop manual during installation. I'm not %100 on what 'hot stop' is but the smoke did start all of a sudden. When you say that it would oil fog all of the ports fairly evenly, where is that fog coming from? I don't feel like it's the turbo or the valve seals but that doesn't count for much. When the mechanic smelled the exhaust he was certain that it was a fueling issue. When he broke the lines loose he only did so long enough for the engine to respond. The engine responded the same with each one.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 19, 2019, 03:58:57 pm
"Hot Stop" I think means pulling off the highway after a hard run and immediately shutting off the engine without allowing time for the turbo to cool down.
Google "coking the turbocharger"
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 19, 2019, 04:36:09 pm
"Hot Stop" I think means pulling off the highway after a hard run and immediately shutting off the engine without allowing time for the turbo to cool down.
Google "coking the turbocharger"
Ok, I was thinking something else. We always allow the coach to idle for several minutes before shutting the engine off.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on June 19, 2019, 04:45:07 pm
As I've said before: "Do you have MASS oil consumption?" That's the sign (other than the smoke) the seals are shot in the turbo.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 19, 2019, 04:59:09 pm
As I've said before: "Do you have MASS oil consumption?" That's the sign (other than the smoke) the seals are shot in the turbo.
We don't have any oil consumption that I'm aware of.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Protech Racing on June 19, 2019, 05:28:14 pm
The balance test , if you let the pressure bleed done in each line long enough to make a change in the smoke will find the broken injector . It may take a minute or more for the smoke to change output. Barring that, Please pull the injectors for a bench test. Bench test before swapping as to isolate the problem as opposed to throwing parts at it and hope it sticks.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 19, 2019, 05:40:50 pm
The balance test , if you let the pressure bleed done in each line long enough to make a change in the smoke will find the broken injector . It may take a minute or more for the smoke to change output. Barring that, Please pull the injectors for a bench test. Bench test before swapping as to isolate the problem as opposed to throwing parts at it and hope it sticks.
The mechanic and I pulled all of the injectors and he is supposed to be testing them at his shop. It's been a week and we haven't heard from him and we're dead in the water until he shows back up.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on June 19, 2019, 05:55:01 pm
The mechanic and I pulled all of the injectors and he is supposed to be testing them at his shop. It's been a week and we haven't heard from him and we're dead in the water until he shows back up.
Is the mechanic's name "Bubba" ?
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: John44 on June 19, 2019, 06:07:28 pm
Did he number the injectors?
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 19, 2019, 07:50:38 pm
Many years ago, I built an injector tester and rebuilt my own injectors. OK, I used a small square cab tilt hand pump out of a fire truck. The injector tester can be built from a variety of hydraulic jacks, etc. See photos below. I was looking for a nice fan pattern and about 2000 psi. Naturally diesel is used in the pump along with a liquid filled gauge so when the injector buzzes, the gauge will remain pretty steady and give an accurate reading.
Once the injectors have been removed and tested for pressure and pattern, it's easy to take them apart. With a big vise, use a breaker bar in the vise with a deep socket the size of the injector base. Then another breaker bar also with a deep socket to unscrew the top from the bottom. Some injectors require a large crescent wrench as they only have two flat sides.
OK, once the top has been unscrewed, you will find a spring and washer inside along with the injector in two parts, the body and the pintle. I would slide the pintle out and after cleaning everything, put the injector into a vise between wood, plastic or a soft metal. Then the seating area on the pintle gets a little valve grinding compound and the pintle is slid back into place with great care as not to let the compound touch the sides of the injector body. I would then chuck up a drill to the small tip on the top and spin the pintle rapidly lifting slightly once a second or so. After inspecting the pintle and injector mating surfaces, if there were any flaws left, I would repeat the process.
Once everything had been cleaned, I would assemble and then pressure test looking for about 2000 psi and a nice fan spray pattern. If the pressure was low, just using a thicker washer would allow the pressure to be brought up so all were close to each other.
This takes about 15 minutes for each injector once you get the hang of it.
Link to injector examples, diagrams: Types of Nozzle in IC Engine : Pintle Nozzle, Single Hole Nozzle, Multihole... (https://www.mech4study.com/2017/03/types-of-nozzle-in-ic-engine.html)
Pierce
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 20, 2019, 09:05:30 am
Many years ago, I built an injector tester and rebuilt my own injectors. OK, I used a small square cab tilt hand pump out of a fire truck. The injector tester can be built from a variety of hydraulic jacks, etc. See photos below. I was looking for a nice fan pattern and about 2000 psi. Naturally diesel is used in the pump along with a liquid filled gauge so when the injector buzzes, the gauge will remain pretty steady and give an accurate reading.
Once the injectors have been removed and tested for pressure and pattern, it's easy to take them apart. With a big vise, use a breaker bar in the vise with a deep socket the size of the injector base. Then another breaker bar also with a deep socket to unscrew the top from the bottom. Some injectors require a large crescent wrench as they only have two flat sides.
OK, once the top has been unscrewed, you will find a spring and washer inside along with the injector in two parts, the body and the pintle. I would slide the pintle out and after cleaning everything, put the injector into a vise between wood, plastic or a soft metal. Then the seating area on the pintle gets a little valve grinding compound and the pintle is slid back into place with great care as not to let the compound touch the sides of the injector body. I would then chuck up a drill to the small tip on the top and spin the pintle rapidly lifting slightly once a second or so. After inspecting the pintle and injector mating surfaces, if there were any flaws left, I would repeat the process.
Once everything had been cleaned, I would assemble and then pressure test looking for about 2000 psi and a nice fan spray pattern. If the pressure was low, just using a thicker washer would allow the pressure to be brought up so all were close to each other.
This takes about 15 minutes for each injector once you get the hang of it.
Link to injector examples, diagrams: Types of Nozzle in IC Engine : Pintle Nozzle, Single Hole Nozzle, Multihole... (https://www.mech4study.com/2017/03/types-of-nozzle-in-ic-engine.html)
Pierce
That's a really cool setup! If we were in a better situation I might try something like it. I'm beginning to think that the mechanic is going to flake on us.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 20, 2019, 11:05:27 am
Since I already had the pump and scrounged the rest of the parts except for the gauge, it didn't cost more than $25 at the most. With a cold engine and a torn or straight stream for an injector pattern, it makes for hard starting and lots of smoke. Once the engine is warm, there is much less of a temperature rise needed so a bad pattern from an injector or two will not be noticeable while driving. The emissions will go up though. I still have the tester but it's in a garage over 500 miles away so can't show photos but it's a lot cruder than the nice ones in the photo.
All injectors are not the same and some have a tip that can be damaged if water gets in the fuel and is instantly vaporized as it's sprayed in.
If your diesel takes a couple seconds or more (sometimes a lot more) of cranking to start and when the engine does start, one or two cylinders take a few seconds to come on line, it's usually because of a bad spray pattern in those cylinders. With a Detroit 6V-92TA, this is common because of the lower compression ratio (17 to 1) on the turbo engines. That's one of the reasons I like to run injector cleaner in the fuel.
With electronic engines, it's a different game and as I recall, there are very few facilities in the U.S. that can rebuild electronic injectors. This may be changing as most all diesels today are electronic. I noticed an ebay ad for a tester for electronic engines but it was $54,000.
As you can see from this ebay page, it's easy to spend more for a set of injectors for some Cummins engines that an overhaul kit. The high prices are not exclusive to Cummins either. New technology comes with a price. cummins diesel 8.3 injectors | eBay (https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=cummins+diesel+8.3+injectors&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_osacat=0&_odkw=cummins+diesel+injectors&LH_TitleDesc=0) . On the other hand, mechanical injectors are usually pretty cheap.
So, your mechanic probably sent the injectors to a shop specializing in injectors and that's probably responsible for the delay. I had a bad injector on an older Detroit mechanical engine and went to an injection shop in Sacramento. A rebuild unit injector (injection pump and injector in one unit) was only $50 so if you have a bad one, it's not the end of the world.
Pierce
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Chuck Pearson on June 20, 2019, 06:19:31 pm
Since you've already got the injectors pulled why not run a leakdown test on each cylinder? It will absolutely pinpoint problems with any cylinder be it rings, intake or exhaust valves, general condition including compression. A kit for this is only around 50 bucks, simple to do. Requires a compressor and that you follow the procedure. I use this device on every used engine considered for purchase. It is an invaluable diagnostic tool.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 20, 2019, 06:43:46 pm
Chuck has an excellent tip. Here is a kit for most HD diesels: 34900 Diesel Compression Tester Tool Set Alt (http://www.freedomracing.com/am-34900-diesel-compression-tester-tool-set-alt.html?___store=default&gclid=CjwKCAjw3azoBRAXEiwA-_64OsVKCjC_mAox9ee92VFD-zpXfplquwuJhibLGTWqYB5JZD8BUpXxlxoC1FUQAvD_BwE)
Along with the compression tester is a differential pressure/ cylinder leakage tester. We use these on aircraft at every annual inspection. We put 80 psi into the tester. There is a restricted orifice between the two gauges. The second gauge will drop down and show the difference between cylinders and with your ear, you can tell where the leakage is by listening at the oil fill on the crankcase, the exhaust manifold and intake manifold. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/otc-5609?seid=srese1&gclid=CjwKCAjw3azoBRAXEiwA-_64OuPwjhGIWkfgjNs_gdwKGJiFz99wHzG_ftDHFHcsVcMf3ZPLsLzuIhoCmKoQAvD_BwE
After each cylinder is tested, we write down the result. Example 80/79 is excellent, 80/75 OK or 80/40 in the case of a severe leak. So you have six sets of numbers to keep in your record book. The next time, you can see if anything has changed.
Pierce
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 20, 2019, 07:10:29 pm
Here is a video on how to do a cylinder leakdown test. The gauge is a little different than I use but the same principal. The engine must be stopped and on top dead center on the compression stroke. 2-cycles fire each time but still have to be at TDC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgrfT0LFMhc
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on June 20, 2019, 07:26:28 pm
I would be beside myself, after all this screwing around, why NO ONE knows WTF happened? :headwall:
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 20, 2019, 10:59:19 pm
Thanks guys for all of the excellent information! The leak down test sounds like it would be a good thing to try but I'm not sure if it is something we'll be able to do. If the engine turns out to be bad we're going to have to come up with another plan of action. We've already spent over 15 grand this year on repairs and with the issues that the coach still has it would be irresponsible to dump any significant amount more into it. I don't really know what other choice we might have. The machinist that did the manifold said he'd give us 5 grand sight unseen. I'm not sure if we'd take that little for it but if the engine is bad and it's 20 grand to fix we'd be worse off. There is a lot to figure out and hopefully we can get the engine back up and going.
It's difficult to move forward without injectors though. The mechanic has not answered my calls or returned my messages for a couple days. There's a good chance he's flaked on us and taken our injectors with him but hopefully he's just been busy and will get back with us soon.
I called Cummins today to try and get a part # for the injectors but all they had was the Cummins pt # and not the Bosch one. The service guy said they didn't really care to work on it but that they would if we can't find anything else. However, they definitely will not look at it without injectors. Looks like I could be figuring out how to reinstall injectors and putting everything back together again.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Protech Racing on June 20, 2019, 11:38:58 pm
Where are you and bus?
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 21, 2019, 12:07:28 am
Parsons, WV. The good news is that it's beautiful here and we're able to rent monthly. Maybe we'll just settle here in WV. As John Denver would say "Country roads, take me home to the place I belong". :)
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: John44 on June 21, 2019, 05:51:43 am
What oil are you using?Get a oil sample and see what the analisys is.Is the mechanic an independant or a shop,have someone else call him with a different number and see if he answers.Get the part number off the turbo and make sure it's the correct one.Is the oil level too high.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Old Toolmaker on June 21, 2019, 09:38:53 am
To The Soft Boulders, I imagine that most of that $15,000 went into one time repairs and deferred mainanence. So regarding your recent engine troubles, while you wait for either your mechanic to return, a trip to the salvage yard for a used set of injectors or eBay, why not begin documenting the internal condition of your engine.
John44 brought up a good point about your engine lubricating oil. Is it at the correct level? As long has you have the dipstick in your hands, and starting with clean hands, wipe the dipstick oil onto your palm. With your index finger does it feel like lubricating oil? Rub your palms together briskly to create some heat stuff your nose into your cupped hands and sniff deeply. Do you smell fuel oil?
You already own the barring tool and you've marked top dead center for #1 and #6 cylinders. Beg borrow or buy a leak down tester and check the cylinders through the injector holes. Your ears will tell you where the leaks are be it exhaust, intake or rings.
Engines that run, especially diesel engines that start well must be in pretty good condition, otherwise they wouldn't run.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Travelin' Man (RIP) on June 21, 2019, 10:14:50 am
White Smoke Indicates a Faulty Fuel System: Time for a Fuel Injector Service (https://www.pcesandiego.com/blog/white-smoke-indicates-a-faulty-fuel-system-time-for-a-fuel-injector-service.html#.XQzlvvZFzIU)
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 21, 2019, 10:37:33 am
If I was able to get a leak down tester wouldn't I still need to find the correct adapter to fit in the hole for our specific injector? It can't be a universal piece can it?
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Protech Racing on June 21, 2019, 11:19:58 am
Correct It has to screw in tight. FWIW if the engine lites right off cold, the compression is fine . The leak down will not show valve seals or guides. Only combustion pressure values.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Old Toolmaker on June 21, 2019, 11:46:16 am
If I was able to get a leak down tester wouldn't I still need to find the correct adapter to fit in the hole for our specific injector? It can't be a universal piece can it?
Protech racing is 100% correct. I was thinking that by the time you were done with the leak down test you'd feel better about the internal condition of your engine.
And regarding what I said about testing your oil with your hands, the same thing goes for engine smoke. Holding your hands in the smoke near the exhaust pipe and rubbing you palms together then a good deep sniff will tell you much about what is coming out of your engine by the feel and odor.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Protech Racing on June 21, 2019, 01:42:04 pm
I can put you in touch with a quality injection/ HD truck tech , that can come to you and get you up and running . Call me and I'll shoot his #. The transit will be 500 or so . I trust him completely and he works for me when his racing overlaps mine . He has keys to my shop .
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: John44 on June 21, 2019, 02:50:23 pm
Agree with above but now his next step is to get the injectors back from the mechanic he can't get a hold of and do all the free checks that he can.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on June 21, 2019, 02:54:44 pm
I can put you in touch with a quality injection/ HD truck tech , that can come to you and get you up and running . Call me and I'll shoot his #. The transit will be 500 or so . I trust him completely and he works for me when his racing overlaps mine . He has keys to my shop .
Thank you, as soon as we get the injectors back and I have it running again we may do that. I don't want to have anyone show up until we're at least back to where we started.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 21, 2019, 05:31:18 pm
If I was able to get a leak down tester wouldn't I still need to find the correct adapter to fit in the hole for our specific injector? It can't be a universal piece can it?
Leak down testers come with a variety of adapters. If you'll find out thread dia and pitch I'll check my kit. If the proper adapter is there I'll be happy to loan my kit to you. Only ask you return it when done. Can't be a bad thing to know condition of rings, valves and seats, head gasket and compression on each cyl. Like others say it won't test valve guides but you can eliminate a lot of variables. (But Protech's reference to a top shelf mechanic is probably the best way to go if you can swing it )
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 21, 2019, 06:23:04 pm
Leak down testers come with a variety of adapters. If you'll find out thread dia and pitch I'll check my kit. If the proper adapter is there I'll be happy to loan my kit to you. Only ask you return it when done. Can't be a bad thing to know condition of rings, valves and seats, head gasket and compression on each cyl. Like others say it won't test valve guides but you can eliminate a lot of variables. (But Protech's reference to a top shelf mechanic is probably the best way to go if you can swing it )
Thank you, Chuck! I will see what I can find but I don't believe our injectors have any type of thread on them. The adapter should look like an injector and it will be held in place by the retainers.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 21, 2019, 06:24:22 pm
Like this. I'm finding cummins pt # 3164840
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 21, 2019, 07:23:58 pm
Diesel Adapter M17 Injector - Cummins Case C Series (https://www.toolsource.com/injector-test-c-114_118/diesel-adapter-m17-injector-cummins-case-c-series-p-98866.html)
Found this but the problem is that I don't know what injectors we have. This is for the Bosch M17 injector but that might not be what we need.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 21, 2019, 07:31:12 pm
The compression tester with all the adapters posted earlier can probably be used with the leak down tester. Several of the adapters were for Cummins. You could just pull the compression quick connect and snap on the leak down quick connect and do both at almost the same time.
Did you ever check your delivery pressure from the secondary filter to the injection pump? Probably one of the first things to do. Easy gauge installation with only a "T" needed. This eliminates low fuel pressure possibilities. Need remote gauge or camera for full load readings. This is my idle pressure.
Pierce
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 21, 2019, 08:15:51 pm
Did you ever check your delivery pressure from the secondary filter to the injection pump? Probably one of the first things to do. Easy gauge installation with only a "T" needed. This eliminates low fuel pressure possibilities. Need remote gauge or camera for full load readings. This is my idle pressure.
The mechanic did check the fuel pressure and said it was good but the engine wasn't under load.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 24, 2019, 11:26:32 pm
Called the mechanic today. No answer. so I drive to his shop and spoke with him. He said he'd been in PA for training since Wednesday and that he'd have them tested and let me know tonight. No call. Have a feeling that tomorrow won't produce a call either. Hopefully we're wrong.
Found the problem with the generator, the radiator is plugged full of junk. It was getting too hot, overflowing coolant everywhere and shutting itself off. And also the exhaust is broken in half at the manifold and filling the compartment and probably the cabin with exhaust.
We made some room on the engine by removing the two useless ac compressors that were sitting in the way of everything. There was no refrigerant in the system and it was all filled with rust, and one of the lines were already broken so we just cut the other ones and got it all out of the way.
We're supposed to be in PA this weekend to see family but I don't think that's going to happen.
I don't know if this is typical of coach ownership or full-timing but this has been an insane past 6 months. I'm addicted though. There's nothing like a good old fashioned trial-by-fire haha!
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: John44 on June 25, 2019, 04:11:24 am
Others will chime in but I have a 96 with the same engine and only have 1 AC compressor,how is yours set up with 2?
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 25, 2019, 09:15:05 am
I was wrong, thankfully. The mechanic called this morning and said all of our injectors tested good and that he'd be down this afternoon to get it all back together. He is going to bring his timing kit and double check the timing on the injection pump. Hopefully we'll have a better idea by tonight what's going on.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 25, 2019, 09:20:26 am
Others will chime in but I have a 96 with the same engine and only have 1 AC compressor,how is yours set up with 2?
One of the compressors circulates (or did) the refrigerant in the basement unit. The system was designed so that the basement ac could be operated via the engine compressor and the inverter could power the fans. That way the generator was not required to operate the ac while driving. The lines to the basement unit were disconnected years ago.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 25, 2019, 09:57:50 am
Wait til you get your parts back then try Facebook as a means to get your opinion of him out there good or bad.
I'd really rather just pay him for his time, get our parts back and put the hole charade behind us. I can understand something coming up and having to postpone but it's aggravating when someone says they're going to do something and then they don't. It's really aggravating when they don't have the decency to call and say they can't make it. Oh well.
I did take some time and today to adjust the valve lash so the day wasn't a total loss.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: John44 on June 25, 2019, 10:29:07 pm
Were any valves real loose or tight?
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 25, 2019, 11:32:35 pm
They were all good. I only adjusted three and that was more to just try it than anything They probably would have been fine but now that I've done it, it's not intimidating.
I'm rethinking my opinion about the turbo not being the culprit. There was a faint but very oil-like substance around the area where the gasket was allowing exhaust to escape. I took the turbo off to have a look and one bank of the exhaust inlet was lightly damp and had an oil smell to it. I guess I don't understand how it would be causing the smoke and the residue in the head without leaving a large trail of oil.
We're about seven hours from Turbo Exchange and if they can do a warranty tear down on it Thursday I'll probably drive down and have them do it.
I'm anxious to find out if we made a wise decision on going with the cheap turbo or if the $1700 genuine Holset from Cummins was really the better deal.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: John44 on June 26, 2019, 02:35:12 am
Have rebuilt hundreds of larger turbos,all brands including Holset my point being a brand new one will last longer then a rebuilt,in my opinion of course.99% of them had an oil related problem,carboned up oil passages,that's probably one reason I use synthetic oil.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Old Toolmaker on June 26, 2019, 09:43:45 am
>They were all good. I only adjusted three and that was more to just try it than anything They probably would have been fine but >now that I've done it, it's not intimidating.
C'mon down!. I have a pair of Honda V-4 motorcycle engines. You can adjust the valves in those, and, once done, you'll be good to tackle anything.
>>I'm rethinking my opinion about the turbo not being the culprit. There was a faint but very oil-like substance around the area >>where the gasket was allowing exhaust to escape. I took the turbo off to have a look and one bank of the exhaust inlet was lightly >>damp and had an oil smell to it. I guess I don't understand how it would be causing the smoke and the residue in the head >>without leaving a large trail of oil.
What we know. The oil would need to go through the engine to foul the exhaust ports. White smoke is unburned oil. Diesel fuel is turned into a fine white fog by the fuel injector. The engine starts and runs normally.
Now we can make an educated guess. Raw engine oil leaking past the oil seals in the turbo follows the intake air. The oil boils and becomes a cool vapor in the cylinder and is exhausted, unburnt.
Part of that was my reasoning for faulty exhaust valve seals and or loose valve guides. Oil would flow down the exhaust valve stems, boil in the exhaust gases and emerge as a white, unburnt, vapor.
If your turbo is leaking enough to create the white smoke, you've been a very lucky man so far. Just as you can run a diesel engine on starting ether, you can run a diesel engine on lubricating oil from a leaking turbo-supercharger. The only way to save an engine when this happens is to use a board to close off the intake air, because you have a positive feedback loop. More air. more oil, more exhaust.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: craneman on June 26, 2019, 09:50:12 am
I have never seen a runaway except it the Detroits. The ones I worked on had the lever to block air at the blower. Not saying it couldn't happen, just never experienced it as heavy equipment mechanic.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: John44 on June 26, 2019, 10:02:30 am
Read thru some of the original posts,what exactly was done on overhaul,what fuel pressure when engine running,what oil is in the engine,if you know the answers let us know,it's mystifing us too.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 26, 2019, 10:33:01 am
Detroit 2-cycles are the only one I've heard about that could runaway. Blower or turbo seals. But, like Craneman said, you just flip the lever and there is also a solenoid on the lever that can be actuated in the cab.
The mechanical Detroits can also run backwards but only if you let the truck roll back on a hill and have a manual transmission. Not good for the air cleaner and the oil pump runs backwards too.
All diesels but especially fire trucks have to be parked upwind from a propane leak emergency.
Bad or valve guide seals that were not replaced at overhaul time can cause smoke. I had a problem with a aluminum MBZ V8 with bad valve seals. Would occasionally blow lots of smoke out the exhaust especially on trailing throttle. Only 150K too.
Pierce
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 26, 2019, 10:38:10 am
What we know. The oil would need to go through the engine to foul the exhaust ports. White smoke is unburned oil. Diesel fuel is turned into a fine white fog by the fuel injector. The engine starts and runs normally.
Now we can make an educated guess. Raw engine oil leaking past the oil seals in the turbo follows the intake air. The oil boils and becomes a cool vapor in the cylinder and is exhausted, unburnt.
Part of that was my reasoning for faulty exhaust valve seals and or loose valve guides. Oil would flow down the exhaust valve stems, boil in the exhaust gases and emerge as a white, unburnt, vapor.
If your turbo is leaking enough to create the white smoke, you've been a very lucky man so far. Just as you can run a diesel engine on starting ether, you can run a diesel engine on lubricating oil from a leaking turbo-supercharger. The only way to save an engine when this happens is to use a board to close off the intake air, because you have a positive feedback loop. More air. more oil, more exhaust.
It makes sense what you said about the oil following the intake air and being burned in the combustion chamber along with the fuel. The weird thing is that there is no oil or dampness of any kind on the cold air side of the turbo. The charge air piping is clean and dry as well. I feel like if that is what is happening then there should be some evidence of it in the piping. That's one reason I'm reluctant to blame the turbo. And if it's leaking out of the exhaust side I don't see how it could cause the smoke because there is no way the exhaust is hot enough on first startup to burn the oil and create smoke.
Could the oil make it's way to the engine through the intake without leaving a trail?
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 26, 2019, 10:46:40 am
I'm not sure on the what the fuel pressure was, only that the mechanic said it was good. As for the oil I'm assuming it is Shell Rotella 15-40 which is what the manual calls for. We just had a full service at MOT in January and they didn't use synthetic that we're aware of.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Old Toolmaker on June 26, 2019, 10:58:44 am
It makes sense what you said about the oil following the intake air and being burned in the combustion chamber along with the fuel. The weird thing is that there is no oil or dampness of any kind on the cold air side of the turbo. The charge air piping is clean and dry as well. I feel like if that is what is happening then there should be some evidence of it in the piping. That's one reason I'm reluctant to blame the turbo. And if it's leaking out of the exhaust side I don't see how it could cause the smoke because there is no way the exhaust is hot enough on first startup to burn the oil and create smoke.
Could the oil make it's way to the engine through the intake without leaving a trail?
You would think that it would leave a film wouldn't you? As far as I'm concerned tho two simplest explanations for the oil smoke are the exhaust valves and the turbo.
Modern automobiles with their construction techniques and catalytic converts have spoiled us. Once upon a time we'd coast down a hill with the throttle closed then open the throttle at the bottom to see how big an oil smoke cloud the car would leave from bad valve guides and valve seals.
As for your idea that the engine is too cold when started, to vaporize oil in the exhaust port from the exhaust valves, the air in the cylinders is hot enough to ignite the fuel oil sprayed in by the injectors. And that fuel raises the temperature even higher.
As for how fast the exhaust gets hot,if you want to see for yourself, take the muffler off your lawnmower engine, stick you finger in the exhaust port and start the engine. Time yourself with your watch to see how long you can leave your finger there before you need to save your finger. Let us know if you get past "Oh s@@t is that hot!"
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: craneman on June 26, 2019, 10:59:39 am
It makes sense what you said about the oil following the intake air and being burned in the combustion chamber along with the fuel. The weird thing is that there is no oil or dampness of any kind on the cold air side of the turbo. The charge air piping is clean and dry as well. I feel like if that is what is happening then there should be some evidence of it in the piping. That's one reason I'm reluctant to blame the turbo. And if it's leaking out of the exhaust side I don't see how it could cause the smoke because there is no way the exhaust is hot enough on first startup to burn the oil and create smoke.
Could the oil make it's way to the engine through the intake without leaving a trail?
A little oil makes a lot of smoke. If the turbo seal was completely blown out, you would see a trail and the smoke would be closer to blue instead of white. Not saying it is the turbo but just what I have experienced.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: John44 on June 26, 2019, 01:56:36 pm
When you get it back together start off with a new tank of good fuel,if your tank is close to full get some good diesel additive and put in the maximun dose and see what happens.Not sure what a warrentee teardown is but if they take the turbo apart and find nothing wrong I'll be surprized if it's no charge.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 27, 2019, 09:25:56 am
When you get it back together start off with a new tank of good fuel,if your tank is close to full get some good diesel additive and put in the maximun dose and see what happens.Not sure what a warrentee teardown is but if they take the turbo apart and find nothing wrong I'll be surprized if it's no charge.
Left camp this morning at about 2:15 and just got out of the turbo shop. They tore the turbo down and found nothing wrong with it. The seals were I good shape and there was no oil anywhere inside the turbo. They gave me a new oil return gasket and turbo gasket and didn't charge anything for the tear down. It was a long drive but at least we can rule out the turbo for certain now. Now for the drive back!
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 27, 2019, 09:34:18 am
I went and got the injectors from the mechanic yesterday and Hannah and I got them installed that evening. Once the turbo is back on we'll be back at square one haha.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Old Toolmaker on June 27, 2019, 11:04:15 am
I went and got the injectors from the mechanic yesterday and Hannah and I got them installed that evening. Once the turbo is back on we'll be back at square one haha.
Don't be so certain. The simple act of disassembling the injectors, if the mechanic did so, may have cured your problem. Luck beats good, but you have to make room for luck to occur.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: John44 on June 28, 2019, 12:40:12 pm
Did'nt research this but is it possible the injection pump could be timed 180 degrees out?
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Chuck Pearson on June 28, 2019, 12:54:25 pm
Got back from Seattle and had a chance to check my leakdown tester. No adapters for injectors, unfortunately. I'm still happy to send you the tester if you wish to obtain an adapter. Bear in mind that it is necessary to prevent the engine from rotating when you pressurize a cylinder. Dangerous if it catches you unaware.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Old Toolmaker on June 28, 2019, 04:26:45 pm
Bear in mind that it is necessary to prevent the engine from rotating when you pressurize a cylinder. Dangerous if it catches you unaware.
The Soft Boulders have already used the barring tool, so they've got better leverage than trying to hang onto a propeller while in goes the air. Art Joly Previous owner of N8772D, S/N 22-5959.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 28, 2019, 05:04:22 pm
Aircraft pressurize to 80 psi and test with two people. After we bring the prop up to TDC firing, we pressurize the cylinder and then rock the prop a few degrees on each side of TDC and look for the highest reading. Naturally, 80/80 would be perfect but until it gets toward 80/70, it's usually in good shape. There is a calibrated orifice between the two gauges. You do have to keep a firm grip on the prop as it could kill or badly hurt someone if it hit them. A borescope is nice to hook to a laptop to take a look inside. Easy to see cylinder wall scoring or a valve problem. With a Detroit 2-cycle, you can pull the air box covers off the block and look at the rings as the are visible in the ports.
In the photo below, the exhaust manifold has been remove along with the front air box cover.
Pierce
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Hammer2100 on June 28, 2019, 10:49:10 pm
Tyler, Check out a you tube video titled, Cummins Spill Timing Method B+C Model. Sorry couldn't get the link to work. Mark C.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Old Toolmaker on June 29, 2019, 08:28:47 am
Tyler, Check out a you tube video titled, Cummins Spill Timing Method B+C Model. Sorry couldn't get the link to work. Mark C.
Cummins Spill Timing Method B+C Model - YouTube (https://youtu.be/3Aucv4FC6ow)
My word! This video is transcribed from tape!
The secret to my success? Coffee.
Public comment on YouTube?
"Holy shit, i worked at a heavy truck Ford dealership back in the day when these B and C engines were used in the F7000.... When these engines came in for white smoke or breaking up at high RPM, all we did was find TDC ( the Ford engine had the timing marks ) broke free the gear on the injection pump, turned the engine back about the thickness of a paint stick, retightened the injection pump gear and assembled any other removed parts and started the engine.... Advancing the timing a couple degrees always took care of the white smoke and engine breaking up at high RPM's... I'm sure that was an EPA no-no at the time but, that's what we did to get those boat anchor engines to run properly....... God, i miss the good ole days....,"
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Hammer2100 on June 29, 2019, 10:34:30 am
I think the problem could be, during rebuild they may have missed torque on the pump. It would slip retarded. From the video cummins ignored the damper mark because poorly marking or slipped outer rings. I was shown this way of finding TDC from a man from England, been using it for 35 years. Extreme caution must be used when using the valves to stop the piston.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: craneman on June 29, 2019, 10:41:30 am
I think the problem could be, during rebuild they may have missed torque on the pump. It would slip retarded. From the video cummins ignored the damper mark because poorly marking or slipped outer rings. I was shown this way of finding TDC from a man from England, been using it for 35 years. Extreme caution must be used when using the valves to stop the piston.
reply #54 he already found TDC
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Hammer2100 on June 29, 2019, 10:47:45 am
Craneman, I had read that, but how was it done. Cummins is saying to ignore the timing pin and the marks back when the engines were first built.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: craneman on June 29, 2019, 10:50:11 am
Craneman, I had read that, but how was it done. Cummins is saying to ignore the timing pin and the marks back when the engines were first built.
He states he used the valve to piston method. I have always used that method degreeing cams on race engines.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Hammer2100 on June 29, 2019, 10:57:40 am
Yes, me to. But the post is about preforming the test, including finding TDC. He's in a pickle and just trying to help.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 29, 2019, 12:37:43 pm
We got everything assembled and the fuel lines bled. Put two cans of Schaefer's soy shield in tank and let the engine idle for 20 mins or so. The smoke was much less than before so we took the coach for a test drive up the mountain. White smoke has turned to black smoke and has all but disappeared. The engine does blow out some black smoke while under load but there is none at idle. Operating temp stayed at 185ish and the engine has lots of power. I think we're going to just leave out in the morning and try to make it to Williamsport.
I don't have a clue what's going on with the engine but hopefully it is going to be ok. A wire on the tachometer sensor broke off and the stud broke off when I tried to remove the nut so we don't have a tachometer at the moment. We called mot to try and get a new one but they didn't call back. That seems to be a trend lately ha.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: John44 on June 29, 2019, 12:40:37 pm
Just asking but since he has the injectors out is there any way of sticking a small dowel in the injector port and using that instead of a valve,thinking back on my Yamaha 250 timing with the dial indicator in the spark plug hole.I cringe when they use the valve method.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Old Toolmaker on June 29, 2019, 12:53:12 pm
I don't have a clue what's going on with the engine but hopefully it is going to be ok. A wire on the tachometer sensor broke off and the stud broke off when I tried to remove the nut so we don't have a tachometer at the moment.
And that's the way it goes sometimes. You do all the right things, find nothing glaringly, obviously wrong, yet when you put it all back together the problem is gone. Just chalk it up to your inherent mechanical genius and go for a ride.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: John44 on June 29, 2019, 01:21:49 pm
Maybe the valve lash check and like the other poster said the injectors just being taken out cured something,would still get the fuel pressure gauge down the line to see what the pressure would be at higher rpm and get the aftermarket overflo valve.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Protech Racing on June 29, 2019, 01:39:15 pm
Most likely had a small contaminant in one injector . Luck is on your side.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 29, 2019, 01:50:43 pm
Hannah and I really appreciate all of the input from everyone. We're not convinced that the problem has resolved itself but we don't know what else to try. It's definitely scary hitting the road without knowing for sure. I'd much rather be broke down at a nice campground than on the side of the road somewhere. It would be nice to be able to say that I fixed the problem but I'd settle for just knowing what the problem was and or why it is no more. HA!
Adding a fuel pressure gauge is on the list of things to do. A pyrometer and boost gauge would be nice additions as well.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on June 29, 2019, 02:36:15 pm
A pyrometer and boost gauge would be nice additions as well.
Both our Airstreams had them and I was surprised our's did not. The word I got from the Factory & CAT was, unless the engine had been 'hot rodded', there was no need.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: jcus on June 29, 2019, 03:07:23 pm
Many older trucks and some rv's came from the factory with boost gauges and pyrometers. Driving up a hill, with foot to the floor, may not cause coach to downshift, but you would be surprised how high the exhaust temps can get. If I cannot accelerate or am slowing down, with full throttle, I always manually downshift.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: craneman on June 29, 2019, 03:20:28 pm
My dad a lifetime trucker long before automatics told me "if climbing a hill lift the throttle and step back down if it doesn't accelerate go to a lower gear" I used that info on all my trucks and never melted a piston.
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: ohsonew on June 30, 2019, 04:38:40 am
Let us know when you get home safe.
Larry
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: The Soft Boulders on June 30, 2019, 11:57:21 pm
We made it to Williamsport without any issues. The coach ran really well, the temps were good, it had a lot of power, the coolant and oil levels look good and the smoke is almost completely gone. There is still a bit of black smoke when the engine is under a heavy load but it doesn't last for very long.
The exhaust manifold gasket is not leaking anymore. That mechanic ordered us a set of multi-layered steel gaskets and I spread a thin layer of high temp sealer around the mating surfaces of each exhaust port on the head. The head is pretty corroded at the mating surfaces and was allowing the exhaust to get past the gasket.
Ther was a lot of great information shared in this thread and Hannah and I have really learned a lot from this experience.
Wonder if a resonator would help,few and far between but a couple of posters years ago replaced a stock muffler and it was full of black carbon.
Usually mufflers taken off diesel have quite a bit of carbon inside. One of the reasons they don't rust out but may rust from the outside in if not stainless. Especially true with mechanical diesels where the operator overfuels on grades. Sometimes, you can see sparks out the exhaust downgrade where the engine is passing a lot of air through and it ignites some of the carbon in the muffler.
Pierce
Title: Re: Lots of White Smoke
Post by: Protech Racing on July 03, 2019, 10:57:03 am
You can prickpunch around the worn gasket area , raises the effective surface a bit and gives the gasket a little more traction .