I just got done installing cork flooring in the coach bedroom. Looks good. Then I washed her up and got ready to bring her to a big barn where we keep it during our stay here on the lake in Maine. Before I left for the storage site, I ran the Aqua Hot and generator. Then I hit the pump switch to cause " demand " for hot water. NO LIGHT!!???? at kitchen sink switch.. Went to bath. NO LIGHT on that switch either. Went outside to wet bay. NO LIGHT on switch ??!! I DID NOT check fuse. Is there a dedicated fuse for the pump?. I did NOTHING to the water system during the floor install. How do these things " just happen" ???? Any suggestions would be welcome.
This sounds like a set up to a punch line.. cork floor and no water? ^.^d :))
Check your latching relay.
John M.
Here's what the latching relays look like if yours are original. They are behind that flat white fiberglass cover in the big compartment. Lots of threads on replacement.
jor
Latching relay?? Which is it in that picture?? Where do I get one?
Thanks, all
My water pump has an inline fuse at the pump. Probably not factory, but have a look as the instructions on the new pumps want one at the pump.
intellitec. 00-00189-000 I got mine off Ebay for 45.00 but I don't see any with that part number. Someone else may be able to tell you if it crosses over to a new number
Chris
Glenn you might google it I found this one PDXRV warehouse 78.68
Glenn,
The water pump circuit breaker is behind the white panel on the driver's side front wall of the main bay. The latching relays are on the lower right area behind the panel. They are white, not like the picture above. The latching relay provides power to,the pump and the indicator lights. The momentary switches close a ground path that causes the relay to latch or release.
Roger
Our water pump latching relay is on the electrical panel with the isolator, etc on it. Foretravel used a VW headlight latching relay on many coaches but not sure if it's the same on yours. Here is the VW part it's also available for much less with a different part number and from an Asian supplier. vw headlight relay latching - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=MYwRXbP6N8G0tAaml4u4Cg&q=vw+headlight+relay+latching&oq=vw+headlight+relay+latching&gs_l=img.3...20913.24187..24567...0.0..0.126.1054.0j9......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i30j0i8i30j0i24.6erJgLA6ENg)
Here is the schematic for our U300 showing the water pump relay on the top of the schematic on the right side. https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=media;sa=album;in=194;nw;start=35
From there, you have to go to schematic B-2126 to see where the relay/water pump gets it's power from. If I can find it tomorrow, I will send it. As I remember, it's from the same electrical panel it's mounted on and is CB protected. Again, this may not be the same for your coach.
Pierce
Here is the part VW Headlight Dimmer Relay for 12 Volt Cars (5 Prongs): VW Parts | JBugs.com (https://www.jbugs.com/product/111941583.html) . Not a OEM Bosch part at this price.
Check for 12V at the relay before ordering one.
Pierce
The photo shows the stock latching relays on our 99 320. When they went bad I replaced them with ones that looked quite different and were white in color. Foretravel probably switched to the white ones after 99. Here's a photo of my replacement and a link. You can also get them from Foretravel or use one of the other suggestions. Relay (http://www.ieknox.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3444_1234_1287_1288_1290_1715&products_id=17562)
jor
John,
Is this a picture form one of your previous coaches? Our 99' U270 had just one of these latching relays on that breaker panel for the water pump. It has a second one of the same relays for the light that is switched over the kitchen sink and by the door.
Don
Glenn
Here are pictures of the relay on my 99 U320. Hope this helps
Mike
For a 2001, U320
The White Panel
Water Pump CB and Latching Relays
Latching Relays. Finder type 20.21, NO, 12v coil
The button on the relay latches or releases the relay.
Not all coaches are the same.
Thanks, everyone
I would like to test the relay to see if it is getting power. All the above pictures show wiring a little different. Some have white wires coming into the top with green below, some have red......
How do I check for 12 v? Will I be able to just switch out the existing wires into a new unit?
I see A1 and A2, but don't know what that means
Electrical is not my strong point, but want to learn from y'all
Thanks
You need a volt meter or at least a 12 volt test light. If you don't show any voltage on any of the wires going into the relay, you need to address that issue first.
Why would there need to be 2 of the latching relays for the water pump, is there a practical limit to the number of momentary switches that can be used for one latching relay? I know there are two switches for the central light fixture in our coach, but I haven't looked closely at how they are wired.
Don
what color wire is the "hot" side? White or Green or red??
Don,
One for the three places where you can turn on/off power to the water pump and one for the two places where you can open/close the fill valve solenoid.
White B29 provides power to the relay.
Switches momentarily short to ground causing the relay to latch or release.
The fill valve and the water pump are wired the same, power goes to different devices.
Glenn, In your coach B29 goes into 1 and A1. The ground loop comes out of A2. Latched power (white) comes out of 2 and feeds the pump and the indicator lamps.
These drawings (as are most FT drawings) are specific to a range of build numbers.
Yea. It's our 99 320. Like Roger said, it had two. One for the pump and one for the fill. One of mine failed so I replaced both with the white Finder deal.
jor
I went to the coach today. Wasn't sure how to check the latch relay to see if it's getting 12v. Pressed the reset switches....they clicked but didn't stay "in"????
Still three dead switches. I am not sure which is to pump and which ti fill. Also not sure how to remove from the board. There seems to be two silver posts. Are they pressed onto the posts. Where should I get replacements.? The BEST place.??
Is it normal for the switches to work fine one day and then just " die"??
If the reset pops back out it is either bad or you have a short. Wish I could help you tell the difference.
If he is referring to the button on the relay it is not a reset button, it latches or unlatches the relay.
Glenn, the white wire labeled B29 powers both relays and connects to the A1 and 1 terminals. The grounding switch circuits connect to terminal A2. Terminal 2 connects to white wire labeled C8. On the other relay terminal 2 connects to white wire labeled C28.
There is a button on the top of the relay (on your coach the top of the relay it oriented down) works just like pressing one of the switches. Press it, the latch latches or releases. If you have power at terminal 1 and the latch is latched you will have power at terminal 2. If you short terminal A2 to ground the latch will latch or release.
The 15 amp circuit breaker for the relay power (White B29) is the bottom one on the right column on the left side of the panel behind the white cover.
Start there. Do you have power here? Do you have power at the relays? Does the button on the relay make something happen? Do you have power at terminal 2? If you ground (momentarily) A2 what happens?
It is very unlikely that the latching relay has failed. It is even more unlikely that all switches failed at the same time. The most likely thing is that somewhere the ground circuit is open.
FINDER - 20.21.9.012.0000 - RELAY, SPST-NO, 400VAC, 16A | eBay (https://www.ebay.com/i/273819170034?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=273819170034&targetid=474380974024&device=t&adtype=pla&googleloc=1016367&poi=&campaignid=1669934846&adgroupid=65058350619&rlsatarget=pla-474380974024&abcId=1139296&merchantid=101557299&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvoTWz7iX4wIVh-NkCh0S-wAsEAQYBiABEgJFRfD_BwE)
thanks, again. I will give it another go in a few days. Always something new to learn.
Glenn,
The ground wire on the pump itself was causing an intermittent stoppage on ours. I moved the ground to the compartment light switch in the front where I could see it and the problem was solved. I just put a spice on it to extend it a few inches.
Put a test light on the hot wire to the pump and see if it comes on with the switches. Latching relay makes a little clicking noise when switched on/off.
This was in Bill's "hanger" in Texas. Thanks again.
Pierce
Indicator lamps on the switches and the pump are powered by same circuit from the latching relay. The ground wire to the pump doesn't have anything to do with the indicator lamps or the pump switches ability to close a ground path to trigger the relay to latch or release. All of this began while doing the floor. Verify the power side of the circuits. Then trace the ground control side.
Correct but if the lights come on and the pump does not work, 12V at the pump and the ground are good places to check. It only takes 30 seconds to see if you have juice at the pump or a bad ground. Our latching relay is a lot harder to get to.
Pierce
OP says no lights. Start at the source.
I did have a strange occurrence this last winter. We had a few freezing days in a row and I was going through the coach and decided to turn on the pump make sure the water heater was full before I lighted it. No light on either pump switch. Tried repeatedly but no joy. Left it for other projects but when I returned a week later, pump worked fine and has ever since.
Pierce
I went to the coach today to start her up and run the Aqua Hot. Got underneath with a voltmeter and tested the B29 cb....I have power there. I am not certain how to test the latch switch. I put positive at A1 and negative at A2...nothing. Same A to 2. The fill switch also doesn't light up or work.
Is it even possible both latch switches went bad at the same time?
If it is the switch, they are attached to the board with two silver pegs. I have NO IDEA of how to take them iff the board. We need the pump to work. What is my next step??
I must ask again.....how do I remove the latch switches from the board? I can" jump " the latch switch a lot easier if I can remove it from the board. Do they just PRY out, or is there a trick to it ?
I believe they are mounted with Velcro or similar, but it has been several years since I replaced mine. The back side of the Finder is flat like the visible side, no place for screws
Glenn,
1. If you measured between A1 & A2 you will have nothing. You need to measure between A1 and a known ground.
2. This leads me to think that you have loss of power.
3. Not likely
4. Are you sure that you have checked the proper beaker that feeds the water pump relay. On our coach that breaker not only feeds water pump relay but also the fill valve relay.
Those silver pins on the relay hold it together. Some coaches the relay is held on by the wires, some by Velcro, some even have a tray that they are clipped into. From your 1st. pic yours may have a spring clip holding it into the tray. It is hard to tell because we are on the road and don't have a big screen to give a good look and see.
Mike
Thanks Mike,
What breaker am I looking for??? Roger told me about B29 cb on the board. Is there another breaker? Where do I look?? maybe the fix !!??
Glen, behind the white panel.
Water pump breaker is the bottom right side. Test wire B29 on the post to the left side of the bus bar. Should be 12 v. This powers both relays.
The latching relays are helld on with double stick tape. Use a thin flat bar or scraper and carefully pull then off. The two relays are probably stuck to each other the same way. On my coach and likely yours the outside relay is for the fill valve and the inside relay is for the water pump.
The wires are held in by small Philips head screws.
Press the button to latch (red indicator) or release t(no red indicator) the relay.
+12 volts goes into A1 and 1. When the relay is latched the two wires coming out of 2 will be 12v. One goes to the indicator lamps and the other goes to the pump or fill valve)
The green wire connected to A2 is the external trigger. A momentary connection to ground latches or releases the relay. There will be continuity from this connection to ground only when the momentary button is pushed. You can check continuity from here to one side of the switch and from the other side of the switch to the common ground bar in the space at the foot of the bed.
If there is power at the A1 and 1 side of the relay and you latch the relay manually there will be power at the 2 terminal, your fill valve will clunk and lights will be on at the fill valve switches. Same with the pump relay.
It is very unlikely that both relays failed at the same time. If you have power on the 2 post when the relay is latched but no fill or pump then you have a pair of broken wires, also unlikely.
Follow the 12 volts.
Roger.....you rock !!! will look at it this weekend. Thanks, much.
Update:
The B29 cb is tripped.
When I press the reset button on the cb,
It pops back out
With my limited knowledge, that means:
1) bad cb. Where would I get one and what is the replacement proceedure?. Do I have to undo and remove the copper buss bar?
Or 2) a short somewhere. Since I recently r/r'd the bedroom flooring, there is a POSSIBLE spot where I pin nailed quarter round under the drawer stack. There are ac ducts above the floor there, so this is unlikely....????? BUT I don't know if I can jump the cb to hot wire the latch switch, or what??!!!
When I hit the reset AND the manual latch switch for BOTH pump and fill, I heard a distant clunk. Hope this turns out to be an easy fix
I would , first unhook the load, ie the wire going to the circuit breaker and reset the breaker .. if the breaker resets , then you know the breaker is good... I would disconnect the pump wire from the relay, if after resetting the breaker, if you have 12 volts at the relay after pressing the button on the relay, I would suggest checking fuse at the pump, if no fuse is present, un hook power from the pump, reset breaker , have some one push the button on relay and check for voltage at pump wire, it should be min of 12volts.. if you have
12 volts I would think the water pump has failed. Circuit breakers rarely fail, the latching relay sometimes fail, but a fuse at the pump, or the pump is more likely...in my humble opinion.
Safe travels,
Dave
Under coach today
I disconnected load side of both latch switches
The CB held AND the buttons on the latch switches held
I pressed each external switch
Each one lit up....for 2 seconds... then tripped both CB and latch
I do not see any fuse or reset at the pump
I do not know what to do next
Have you followed Dave's directions?
Back at coach
Disconnected all outgoing wires
The pump wire tripped the CB
Disconnected pump hot wire
No trip at CB
PUMP !!!???
New Flojet pump almost $200
Does Flojet repair pumps??
Thanks for all the help and support
The only parts are for the pump, none for motors. Many pump options for much less than $200.00 I carry a new spare on the coach as their failure can ruin a trip.
what brand/model did you purchase?
does it compare to a Flojet?
The Shurflo 4008 is a popular replacement water pump. Search this Forum for many positive reviews. The pump, strainer and "silencing kit" (white flex hoses) in my photo altogether cost about $110 (2 years ago). Search online for best current prices.
Shurflo 4008-101-E65 Revolution Water Pump (https://www.rvupgradestore.com/SHURflo-Revolution-By-Pass-Pump-p/86-8398.htm)
The PO of my coach had installed a second water pump next to the original and valves to quickly switch over. I added a switch to make it easier to switch. Came in handy the other day when the pump was continuing to run on (probably trash in pressure switch?) and I just switched over to the 2nd pump. A good upgrade to consider. Sorry no pictures but should be easy to figure out.
Could you post a pic of your pump installation? I don't see how I fill another water pump in that compartment.
Just curious....the Shurflo gives 3.0 gpm, the Flojet 4.5 gpm. Doesn't this effect things like taking a shower, etc?
Glenn, Max shower flow rate is 1.5 gpm
If you're running off the pump most likely you're boondocking. The less rate would be beneficial since the pressure on both is regulated around 40 lbs.
Kinda tight but 2 pumps will fit. The switch at top along with the valves on the hoses switches to either pump.
Don,
I just read this thread, hence the delayed reply. There's no limit to the number of N.O. momentary switches for this, and like, circuits. They're wired in parallel.
Thanks Greg, that is what I figured but I was confused by the pictures showing two of these relays not realizing that the U320's have a relay for the solenoid fill valve, as well as one for water pump. Ours U270 has a manual water fill valve.
Don
We have another latching relay in (near) the bathroom. A switch in the bedroom and one in the bathroom turn on a ceiling light in the bathroom. You can hear it clunck. These are a good way to have multiple switches to control one thing. The part that makes these circuits a bit hard to figure out is that the switches close a path to ground. The power switching is at the relay.
and latching relays consume power themselves 100% of the time they are "latched" - so I tend to avoid the big oight in the main salon and the latched relay light in the bathroom, since there are so many other ligths in the coach. quick entry and exit, that latched switch by the door gets used, but if not connected to shore power, we don't use the "latched" lights or the microwave counter light (cant find an LED for it, only halogen)
Microwave LED Bulbs
Tim try these out for the MW,
KINDEEP Ceramic E17 LED Bulb for Microwave Oven Appliance, 40W Halogen Bulb... (https://amazon.com/KINDEEP-Microwave-Appliance-Equivalent-Daylight/dp/B01KX765TE/ref=sr_1_5?crid=XVWFSOYJVENF&keywords=120v+microwave+led+bulb&qid=1564938662&s=gateway&sprefix=120v+led+micr%2Caps%2C233&sr=8-5)
Amazing difference.
UNLESS they are magnetic latching relays. Magnetic latching draws no current in "ON" or "OFF" state, only draws current when changing state of switch. I'm using a Blue Sea 7701 ML Solenoid in place of the conventional "boost" solenoid on our coach.
Do they make "lighter duty" ML relays for applications like controlling lights or water pumps? Yes, they do! See below for one example:
Magnetic Latching Relays (https://ab.rockwellautomation.com/Relays-and-Timers/Magnetic-Latching-Relays#selection)
Our coach has, at least, 4: The 3 mentioned, and one for the 3 lights in the dining/galley/front hallway, operated from stepwell and galley switches. Great to hear these switches are sinking to ground. I hadn't gotten around to checking that, but it will save me from having to pull wires for some LED dimmers that switch, via sinking. Thanks for the info, Roger. ^.^d
Getting back to the original topic...
I just received the pump today and will be going out to the coach to install. I have a question, though...
My fresh water tank is full. When I disconnect the existing pump, what do I do at the inlet? Can I shut off supply at the plumbing manifold, or is there another approach? I need a reply very soon, as it is raining, and a perfect day for this project. Thanks
Glenn, as I recall there is a valve on the forward wall of the pump bay to shut off the water from the tank to the pump. Get a bunch of towels anyway. There will be some spillage.
Thanks, Roger
I tried to bypass the pressure switch, hoping THAT was the problem. No go.
Looking at old pump, on the left, looks like corrosion at head of pump. I'll be taking it apart, just for grins, but think the old pump seized up. Will report back later
Just to make sure, connect the new pump to the electric wiring and run it momentarily without plumbing it in to make sure the breaker does not trip. It can run dry. THEN if it does not, plumb it.
It was the pump