Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: RetiredGuns on July 14, 2019, 02:01:19 pm
Title: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: RetiredGuns on July 14, 2019, 02:01:19 pm
First off, my Batteries are 2 Years Old, but only used for 9 Months. I am now stranded in Vona Co, at the Onramp! I have called Good Sam Roadside Assistance, and they haven't gotten someone as yet after an hour, to Jump Start me! I had 2 House Batteries as wired by OEM, and a 3rd Battery fully charged, but not hooked into system. I took Jumper Cables and was able to start the Genny. I was plugged into Shore Power Yesterday, so assumed that they were fully charged. Last night, the Voltage, was 11.5 VDC for those two House Batteries. Going down the road, about 120 miles from Colorado Springs between Yesterday to today, I for whatever reason did not monitor the Voltage Output from the Alternator. I pulled over at this onramp, in Vona, to take a Power Nap. Woke up, after an hour, tried to start....No Go. Even after I hooked up that Spare House Battery, and engaged the Boost Switch, it just clicked the starter, no start!
The Service truck arrived, and we got it started. But the Alternator is only Putting out about 11.4 Volts Indicated. The Generator is putting out 13.5 Volts DC, but until I get to a Service facility 80+ miles down the Road, I do not want to shut it off!
So, it appears all 3 methods of charging both the House batteries, and now the Starting batteries is inop? Is there anything in common, Perhaps, that anyone has had issues like this with, and fixed it? I am suspecting a New Alternator, but the Confusing part is the House batteries do not seem to be charging, either?
I did reset all C/B's inside and the Xantrex Inverter seems to be fine, and no C/B issue there either!
Hopefully I gave a Good description of just what I am dealing with? I can clarify, if need be?
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: wolfe10 on July 14, 2019, 02:07:57 pm
If batteries are that deeply discharged, the only realistic way to proceed it to fully charge them and have them load tested.
Could be nothing more than a loose or corroded connection. Could be a bad alternator. Could be a bad sense wire. Could be a bad battery isolator.
But, until the batteries are charged, troubleshooting can lead to some false conclusions.
What is your inverter/charger reading (both voltage and amps) when on shore power or generator?
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: RetiredGuns on July 14, 2019, 02:14:47 pm
The Inverter is reading 14Vdc, and 50 AMPS, now, accepted Charge but took a While to do that! Now that you mention the Isolator, would that also keep the Alternator form Allowing a Full 14.4 VDC, Indicated? Hmm?
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: RetiredGuns on July 14, 2019, 02:17:23 pm
Also, the Sense Wire, is it OK, to remove the Plug, as it is running, to see if I am getting at least the 12VDC, reference Voltage, or could I fry the Alternator for sure? I have checked all connections, right off! All seem good?
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: RetiredGuns on July 14, 2019, 02:33:22 pm
So, now that the engine has been running about a Half an hour, I have not moved, and the Voltage is only 9.7 VDC on the Starting Batteries, which Indicates that I have an Issue with the Alternator. I have the Genny Running, and on BOOST, right now, is it safe to Limp it into a Service Center, for Troubleshooting? In other words is the Alternator required to keep the Engine Running, or will the Genny Provide what is needed?
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Jack Lewis on July 14, 2019, 02:38:20 pm
Tom, short in one of your batteries could also give you that voltage, even with a good alternator, happened to me once while driving. I would check individual batteries first.
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: RetiredGuns on July 14, 2019, 02:53:07 pm
OK, right now, I have 9 VDC, and a Warning Light comes on for the Transmission, and a Beeping Sound! Also, it seems like it is going into gear on it's own? the Parking Brake is engaged, of course, but the Allison Transmission is not operating, at all! It has Asterisks, and all other Gobody Goop, characters randomly displaying! I am glad I waited, before taking off, as at least I am not stranded on the side of the road! I Turned the engine off, now the voltage Indicator reads 11.6. All this sounds expensive to me? Guess I make another Service call to Good Sam! Hopefully it can be repaired here, If not, I get to see one of those Special Flatboy Trailers, to get her on to a facility, huh? Any troubleshooting idea is appreciated! I hate to turn the Genny off, now! At least I will have Constant Power. And I fear it isn't properly Charging the House Batteries either?
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: RetiredGuns on July 14, 2019, 02:55:24 pm
Tom, short in one of your batteries could also give you that voltage, even with a good alternator, happened to me once while driving. I would check individual batteries first.
The Starting Batteries are less than a Year old, BTW! Never had an Issue, I really suspect something in common with all 3 Charging Systems, at this point? Afraid to stop the Genny, for fear it isn't charging the Batteries either?
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 14, 2019, 02:56:21 pm
Remove the cables linking the batteries together and check each one with a digital voltmeter. If all are OK, you can drive with the generator running. Shorted battery can run everything down.
Use Yelp to check for electric motor/auto shops around you. They will be able to troubleshoot the problem if alternator or isolator. No need for a RV or Cummins dealer to work on the alternator if that's the problem.
Another good reason to have at least a couple of plugin voltmeters for the dash and side panel lighter plugs. Easy to see the problem coming before you get stuck somewhere. Also, you can quickly see what happens to respective voltages when you hit the boost switch, etc. Without gauges, you are operating in the dark when things go south.
Solar also gives you backup insurance too if you have it.
Pierce
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: wolfe10 on July 14, 2019, 03:00:34 pm
So, now that the engine has been running about a Half an hour, I have not moved, and the Voltage is only 9.7 VDC on the Starting Batteries, which Indicates that I have an Issue with the Alternator.
POSSIBLY. But, same symptoms if the battery isolator or wire connection is bad.
Again, fully charge both banks and have them load tested. THEN troubleshoot the electrical system.
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 14, 2019, 03:15:35 pm
I had a mis-wired isolator when we purchased the coach. I didn't realize it but left the headlights on one day and flattened all the batteries, engine and house. I just opened the hood on the toad and ran a jumper to the engine batteries and in about twenty minutes, I was on the road again.
Isolators are under $100 and a shop rebuilding the alternator should charge about $100 with bearing/diode replacements. More if anything major.
Have a toad with you?
Pierce
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: RetiredGuns on July 14, 2019, 03:27:40 pm
I had a mis-wired isolator when we purchased the coach. I didn't realize it but left the headlights on one day and flattened all the batteries, engine and house. I just opened the hood on the toad and ran a jumper to the engine batteries and in about twenty minutes, I was on the road again.
Isolators are under $100 and a shop rebuilding the alternator should charge about $100 with bearing/diode replacements. More if anything major.
Have a toad with you?
Pierce
I do, but being Sunday, it seems most places are of course closed, especially Alternator Shops! I might have to drive the 3 hours back to Colorado Springs, but first need to know for sure, what the Issue IS? I may call the Cummins Free Hotline again? Maybe they can shed some light? If anyone has a clue, as to what is in common, to all 3 Charging Systems, being Shore Power, Alternator and Generator, not charging either Bank, I'm all ears? ;)
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Caflashbob on July 14, 2019, 03:59:16 pm
Gen will provide power at the long term risk of the boost switch heating up as it consumes power to hold it together.
A auto combiner would connect the batteries without any heating or power consumption issues in a future upgrade.
I would check cabling and connections first.
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: juicesqueezer on July 14, 2019, 04:39:04 pm
Tom, we just had our alternator rebuilt and average cost is $160 for a complete rebuild. When we lost our alternator on our '98, we drove well over 100 miles with our generator running to a repair shop if the alternator is the only problem. Hoping you get it resolved with little issues.
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: AncloteJoe on July 14, 2019, 04:39:35 pm
Run on down to walmart and pick yourself up a 25amp charger and charge your chasis batteries. at 11.6 your batteries are virtually dead. get them charged up. As Wolfe said, charge them up before you try and trouble shoot. Low voltage on the allison transmisssion controller can damage it(dont ask how I know this, also, the HWH leveling system).
Rick
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: DavidS on July 14, 2019, 04:43:18 pm
Stop and buy a battery charger.. not a digital one.. run a cord and put it on high.. will or should get you where you are going...thats what I did when my alternator went out on the way to cali..
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Jack Lewis on July 14, 2019, 04:54:56 pm
Pierce's advise to disconnect cables and check voltage is good advice. Also using a charger to raise individual battery voltage is good as it will also point out a shorted battery. Checking cable connections, loose cable can also discharge a battery instead of charging. In my case of the shorted out battery, I had exactly the same symptoms you described.
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: RetiredGuns on July 14, 2019, 04:58:22 pm
Thanks All! I have been on the Phone with Good Sam's Telephone Troubleshooter, and he agrees that it may be an Isolator, but that could be because I suggested it? Anyway, if you read above, I am still experiencing the fact, that as soon as I start the coach, which the Genny Seems to be Charging now, BTW! I get it up to 12vDC, start it, and watch the Voltage drop, quickly! Within an hour or so, with the Engine running, the Voltage goes all the way down to 9VDC, the Transmission Indication Display looks like a Las Vegas, Slot Machine, and cannot be driven! So, I called and Good Sam, cannot find an RV Tech, on Sunday, but has gotten a Big Truck Mechanic calling me so I can fill him in, if he sounds like he is not familiar with RV Systems, I will wait, right where we are at, until Tomorrow, as at least I am Safe! To be Stuck on a Shoulder, is way too risky for me! The Generator (10 KW, Diesel) uses only .5 Gallons of fuel and hour anyway, right? I will still check the forum, from time to time, and if there is something I didn't try, I will try that!
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: RetiredGuns on July 14, 2019, 05:00:31 pm
Stop and buy a battery charger.. not a digital one.. run a cord and put it on high.. will or should get you where you are going...thats what I did when my alternator went out on the way to cali..
I have Both Types of Chargers with me! My very Old Sears 6 AMP Charger, is at least 45 YO, and never quits! I'll let them figure that out! Unless they seem to be inept?
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Caflashbob on July 14, 2019, 05:03:03 pm
Unfortunately any severe discharge lowers the batteries capacity unless possibly a desulfurization device is used afterwards.
My experience is that 100% perfect charging and use results in the best life.
Only way I have found that gets that kind of reliability is a solar system and a auto combiner.
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: wolfe10 on July 14, 2019, 05:11:07 pm
The smart inverter charger is programmed to NOT try to charge a deeply discharged battery.
So, as others have said, use your "dumb" charger to get voltage up to where the inverter/charger can take over.
And STOP RUNNING THE ENGINE. You are serious danger of damaging engine and transmission electronic control units!
Start with the house bank, as the inverter/charger is hard wired to it. Once amps of charging drops below 20 amps, use the boost switch to allow it to charge the chassis batteries. If turning on the boost switch does not materially increase inverter/charger amp output (indicating that the boost switch/relay is not working) there are some very easy work arounds.
Just let us know and we can help.
And, as said early on, be sure battery connections (positive and ground) are clean and tight!
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Old Toolmaker on July 14, 2019, 05:32:13 pm
The Service truck arrived, and we got it started. But the Alternator is only Putting out about 11.4 Volts Indicated. The Generator is putting out 13.5 Volts DC, but until I get to a Service facility 80+ miles down the Road, I do not want to shut it off!
Hopefully I gave a Good description of just what I am dealing with? I can clarify, if need be?
Been there, done that.
1) Until your Chassis battery is fully charged you can't test the engine alternator. If the load (battery and engine) is drawing too much current the alternator's control circuit will reduce the voltage to protect the alternator by limiting the current output.
2) Hook your known good house batteries up to the chassis and run your generator and Xantrex to power the engine and keep the batteries charged.
3) 0.5 gph for your diesel generator? Ouch. On Sunday and Monday this week past I used up 5/8 of my 35 gallon propane tank running my Onan for about 16 hours for relief from the heat.
At the end of the day, get yourself what you need to get to your destination. You need electricity to run your chassis engine and transmission.
"You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes you get what you need."
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: RetiredGuns on July 14, 2019, 06:16:38 pm
By any chance have you recently replaced the alternator?
AFAIK, it may be Original Equipment?
I just got of the Phone with Roadside Service, and he feels it is ONLY the Alternator? I will go to Isolator, to see if the Input from the Alternator is 14+ Vdc, or will have roadside assistance do it! It's above 90 degrees, at this moment, and this AC feels too good, to get out of! That's why we pay them the Big Bucks, right? I appreciate all the Free Advice I am getting, from here as well, As Usual, ALL Foretravel Owners are THE BEST! And I thank you, Immensely!
First off, the advice of the RV Tech, differed from the actual Roadside Assistance person. The problem was, as he said he knows RV Electrical Systems, he was 100 miles OUTSIDE his Service area. He was told by the Good Sam Rep I was near Boulder! Nope, no where near there! I even made the Rep, repeat back of exactly where I was, who knows how that got confused? I have another call in for another Service Tech who I can get out here to Troubleshoot BOTH the Alternator, and/or, Isolator?
Depending on what Part is bad, I would not be able to get it, until Tomorrow, so I will have them pull the part, Pay them for that, as Good Sam is JUST the Service call, of course, and not Parts and Labor (Oops, I just found out as I was typing this that No One will be available until 10 AM, to even talk to me! I will try and Troubleshoot it myself, jerk the Bad Part off, and be Somewhere as soon as they open, with bells an whistles on!!! LOL )
Then, if it is the Leece - Neville Alternator, decide if I want or can wait for a rebuild as said on here about $150.00, or nearly a Grand for a New one?
Has anyone Upgraded to a Higher AMP Alternator that will work without overheating, as the Service Tech, said he does not recommend a Higher Amperage Alternator? I do it all the Time in my Trucks, and Offroad Vehicles, without issue, so don't understand why I could not in the Foretravel? Bigger is Always Better, when it comes to AMPS, and I was considering having 2 or maybe 3 HUGE alternator, like I have seen on newer Coaches that require more power, these days!
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: RetiredGuns on July 14, 2019, 06:22:52 pm
The smart inverter charger is programmed to NOT try to charge a deeply discharged battery.
So, as others have said, use your "dumb" charger to get voltage up to where the inverter/charger can take over.
And STOP RUNNING THE ENGINE. You are serious danger of damaging engine and transmission electronic control units!
Start with the house bank, as the inverter/charger is hard wired to it. Once amps of charging drops below 20 amps, use the boost switch to allow it to charge the chassis batteries. If turning on the boost switch does not materially increase inverter/charger amp output (indicating that the boost switch/relay is not working) there are some very easy work arounds.
Just let us know and we can help.
And, as said early on, be sure battery connections (positive and ground) are clean and tight!
Thank YOU! I told Good Sam, already, that I am stranded, and need assistance, glad now that I stuck to that. Both Techs I talked to asked me if I could Limp it into a Service Center, and I refused after I saw all that Gibberish on the Transmission Display! I will work on charging those batteries with the Transformer (OLD) style Battery Charger, once things get a bit cooler! It's 95 degrees outside, and the Wife would rather I stick around for awhile longer, LOL
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 14, 2019, 06:28:35 pm
If it's the isolator and you are going to change it either yourself or a shop is, take a label machine and use it to identify which cable is which. Yes, there are factory markings on the ends but ours had long since faded out. After you have labeled the cables, take a photo of it. The PO had replaced the isolator but tied both battery banks together so when one died, the other one did too. Took me a couple of hours with the schematic and a multimeter to get it straightened out.
Pierce
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: RetiredGuns on July 14, 2019, 06:30:55 pm
Unfortunately any severe discharge lowers the batteries capacity unless possibly a desulfurization device is used afterwards.
My experience is that 100% perfect charging and use results in the best life.
Only way I have found that gets that kind of reliability is a solar system and a auto combiner.
The PO, installed a Desulfating device, which is connected, all the time! And yes, Ideally the Batteries are kept as close to a full charge as possible! Long story short, I find that Nearly Impossible, for the House Battery Bank, as in about 5 hours, or so, the Voltage has dropped, below 11.7, which of course knocks the Inverter Off - Line! The Most demand I ever put on it is the Microwave Oven, and a Few lights, or when it was cold, for the Heater Fan Motors. I have Solar Panels, but they stopped working, and I was going to troubleshoot just WHY that happened, as I have not gotten my "Round Tuit" for it, just as yet!
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: RetiredGuns on July 14, 2019, 10:27:04 pm
So, along the very same line as most have alluded to, I found this TSB from(Prestolite) Leece Neville, alternator Testing to be of interest, in my case, perhaps? http://www.prestolite.com/literature/tech/alts/TSB-1019_On_Trk_Troubleshooting.pdf
And also, beamalarm has posted a similar TSB http://www.prestolite.com/literature/tech/alts/TSB-1019_On_Trk_Troubleshooting.pdf
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Pamela & Mike on July 15, 2019, 06:20:52 am
Tom,
If you have an OEM system (isolator & DUVAC alternator) this TSB isn't for you. In step 3 if you have battery voltage at the alternator + terminal with a DUVAC system then the isolator has failed.
Mike
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Old Toolmaker on July 15, 2019, 08:39:37 am
Unfortunately any severe discharge lowers the batteries capacity unless possibly a desulfurization device is used afterwards.
What we have here, is a failure to communicate.
Whats happens when you totally discharge a starting lighting and ignition flooded lead acid battery, is that the lead sponge that makes up the active component of the battery sheds and settles to the bottom. because of the physical size change between the two lead oxides.
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Old Toolmaker on July 15, 2019, 08:46:57 am
So, along the very same line as most have alluded to, I found this TSB from(Prestolite) Leece Neville, alternator Testing to be of interest, in my case, perhaps? http://www.prestolite.com/literature/tech/alts/TSB-1019_On_Trk_Troubleshooting.pdf
And also, beamalarm has posted a similar TSB http://www.prestolite.com/literature/tech/alts/TSB-1019_On_Trk_Troubleshooting.pdf
What I want to say: The surface charge is the third chemical reaction in a lead acid battery and is mostly completed after 3 hours. After charging your battery, you need to wait 3 hours before you can achieve a meaningful state of charge voltage reading.
Welcome to civilian life, and I'm sticking my neck out here, Guns. We don't have TSOs. Most of the time we're lucky to have accurate documentation.
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on July 15, 2019, 09:38:45 am
Guns,
I just read through this whole thread, and I understand your frustration. You are getting lots of advice from different directions. You are stuck on the road, and you need to be able to move your coach to a place where repairs can be more realistically accomplished.
Not to belittle the roadside service techs, but very few of them are familiar with the complex charging systems on our coaches.
Taking all the advice from our Forum members and distilling it down to the simplist terms, my "free" advice would be this:
1. Don't attempt to run your big engine until you have a fully charged engine start battery. The engine, transmission and HWH leveling system must have proper voltage to operate. As long as your generator is running, you can get along fine for now without worrying about the house (coach) batteries.
2. You have a operating generator (115V power supply) and a "dumb" battery charger, so you have the means to get the engine start battery charged. This should be your first priority. Save the technical trouble shooting until you get the coach moving again and get back to civilization.
3. Once the engine start battery is fully charged, if you run your generator and turn on your boost switch, you should be able to drive the coach in that condition without any problem. The inverter will supply more than enough charging voltage through the boost switch to the engine battery to keep it charged as you drive. Forum members have driven thousands of miles with a totally dead alternator by using this procedure.
4. Drive the coach to a place where you can get plugged in and safe, then you can proceed with trouble shooting in a calm, logical manner.
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: AncloteJoe on July 15, 2019, 10:05:22 am
Regarding the Boost switch, I had an alternator failure and called FT support. I asked James T how long I could run the coach with the generator running and the boost switch on. He responded, til you run out of fuel, otherwise, indefinitely. So technically, you dont need an alternator as long as you run the generator all the time.
Just an FYI.
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 15, 2019, 11:14:34 am
Regarding the Boost switch, I had an alternator failure and called FT support. I asked James T how long I could run the coach with the generator running and the boost switch on. He responded, til you run out of fuel, otherwise, indefinitely. So technically, you dont need an alternator as long as you run the generator all the time. Just an FYI.
But pushing the boost switch is not a guarantee that the boost solenoid is working. The light on the switch only means that it SHOULD be working. Again, that's why I have my twin voltmeters right in front of me so when you do use the boost switch, you can instantly watch the voltage come up if the solenoid is working. Yes, you should be able to drive forever with the generator working.
Our voltages are constantly changing while driving. If I see the engine battery voltage stabilize and then start dropping, it's time for the boost switch, generator and to head somewhere safe and out of the sun where I can figure out what's wrong.
If you have solar, the generator does not even have to be running if the boost switch/solenoid is working.
Photo is early morning at a campsite with the solar controller delivering bulk voltage to the house batteries.
Pierce
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: cubesphere on July 15, 2019, 11:23:01 am
I had a similar issue with batteries discharging, it ended up a two things, bad regulator in alternator and the switch that starts the engine from the rear engine bay. Like many have said here, I chose to start with new fully charged batteries before checking anything or running engine.
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: RetiredGuns on July 16, 2019, 01:50:57 pm
Thank you for all your replies! I am now safely in an RV Park, after being put on a Flatbed, and dropped off in Stratton Colorado, off of I-70! There is an RV Tech, that has a Brick and Mortar, in this town, who is 77 Years old, and knows his stuff on RV Appliances, but not Motorhome Electrics! I would like to conquer this myself, and ways to "Work Around", on this issue, to get me back to PA, would be great, then really dig into my issues!
The Plot thickens! I will simplify my Voltage conditions as much as possible, to relate what I am experiencing, and can elaborate, any position, if need be! First off, I parked on in a town, about 2 hours or so, out of Colorado Springs for the night, as we got a late start, and sleep has been sparse! I tried to run the Genny, and No Way, would it start, with 1/2 a tank! I figured it was an anomaly, as we never had issue with it, woke up the next day, and put another 50 gallons in the Diesel Tank, and off we went! I did not sleep well that evening as well, and we pulled off the Highway, about an hour further down the road so I could Power Nap! I woke up, put the key in ignition.....No Start! I called Good Sam for a Jump, and noticed by Batteries were @ about 9 Volts at that time! The Roadside Assistance showed up, and she started OK, but noticed the Alternator was only supplying a bit over 11 Volts. So instead of continuing on, I waited, to see what would happen! Seems that Both Battery Banks were dropping in voltage, so I shut it off! I tried to start the Coach once again, and the Display on the Allison Transmission Selector went all haywire! I knew I was now Stranded! I called Good Sam, this time they contacted me with a Telephone Troubleshooter! He said that it was either the Alternator, or the Battery Isolator. After reading many posts, I determined that No Way I was going to make matters worse, and Good Sam could not find any Roadside Tech, to get me going, so I asked for a TOW, at this point! They found a Mechanic but when I called, I found out, he was ONLY going to do an R & R, of the Alternator, and if it was anything else, it needed to go several hours away, to Denver!
I then cancelled THAT Tow, as I said they'd have to do another Expensive Tow, if that wasn't the Issue! They agreed to Tow it 7 Miles to this Town of Stratton Colorado, so I'd at least be Flat, and have Electric, etc. There are 3 RV Parks here, so that was nice! Right now, the Tech cannot see me for 3 days, and if anyone has idea's I'd appreciate it! If I do get into it, I will do it in the Early Morning Hours, or Evening perhaps? I can stay as long as it takes to fix this, but of course would like to get home!
So, this morning, plugged into a 50 AMP Service pole, I read my House Batteries, and they read, 17 Volts! Not happy, about all of that, because these Batteries, are all newer, and I realize I may have toasted them all? I shut the Salesman Switch off, and the House Batteries went down a bit, but I am still going to Disconnect them!
Should I put a Load on them, right away, or wait? It's a wonder they have not exploded, all over the place, actually! The Starting Battery Bank is Stable now, at 12.4 Vdc!
So, the ONLY thing that comes to mind is my Inverter is Fried, and needs replacement? I have to unbolt it, to get to the Output Terminals at this point, to confirm it is messing up, and will try and do that tonight! It is now nearing 100 degrees outside! Gotta LOVE A/C! I have SLA Batteries, that I replaced with SLA's as well, and Sage Advice from Brett Wolfe, said that the Inverter Charger must be Set to the Proper Parameters for they Type of Battery!
So, Keep your advice coming, and if you feel, at this point, it is a Faulty Inverter, and recommendations for the best Versatile one out there, I'd appreciate it!
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: RetiredGuns on July 16, 2019, 02:01:27 pm
I want to add, that Good Sam, did the best that they can, given it was a Sunday, and I'm far from any larger sized town. Make sure you verify, by calling and explaining all issues with person they are sending out, or being sent to, as they were wrong, several times. You just have to understand that they were maybe a Bartender, before becoming a Good Sam Associate, and a few even said they were very new, and did not know RV Service, one bit! Otherwise, the Bill was well over $2K, for the Jump Start, and the Two Tows required for a Trailer, and the Motorhome! I saw the bills, and it was not cheap, but the Roadside Assistance Insurance sure was, in comparison! I give them 4 Stars out of 5! Understand though, this was the very First need, in belonging to them for many decades, so it might be Even/Steven? :) Just want to mention that you must say, or actually not be in a safe location. The Amount I saw that is covered, is only $999.00, if you are in a Safe Place! Something to remember!
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: wolfe10 on July 16, 2019, 02:17:45 pm
Tom,
As we discussed on the phone, use your small "stupid" chargers on both battery banks.
Once up to 14.2 VDC and low amps going in, disconnect stupid chargers. This may take many hours if batteries are deeply discharged and charger amp output is low.
With a digital voltmeter on the chassis battery, have Barb try to start it. If voltage at the battery drops below 10 VDC, the batteries are bad. If it is above 10 VDC, but either won't start OR Barb sees voltage at the dash for the chassis battery drop below 10 VDC, look for a wiring problem. Could be something as simple as a loose or rusty connection for the ground wire at the chassis/engine.
Again, with both inverter/charger and alternator both showing symptoms at exactly the same time, you need to eliminate the thing they have in common (batteries) before spending big bucks on other equipment.
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: RetiredGuns on July 16, 2019, 02:48:38 pm
Brett, I did charge the Batteries up with the Genny, and they now seem to be stabilized, at 12.2 Volts! Of course, I only operated the Engine 3 times since then, and the Alternator Voltmeter only showed a charge rate, a bit over 11 Volts! I shut it down after my Service Air Brakes were up to Snuff, maybe 5 Minutes. I checked voltage, 12.2, after shutting it down. The same when I loaded it on the Flatbed, and off! So about maybe a grand total of 30 Minutes, of operation, seemed to be fine! I still did not want to Limp it 7 miles, because the Gremlins are running rampant in my electrical system! I will isolate, by turning off the Cutoff switch at the Starting Batteries, and monitor them as well! Remember, I had Issues though with the Genny Charging them, with the Dumb Charger, although, when I put each battery, separately on the Dumb Charger, they did an Initial reading of about 3 AMP Draw, which Indicates the Batteries are in good shape! I was going to, at that point, hook all 3 portable chargers I had with me, when the Genny Died!
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: RetiredGuns on July 16, 2019, 03:05:30 pm
So, even after disconnecting the Salesman Switch, I just saw 17.5 Vdc, indicated, it's been several hours, now, so I unbolted my House Batteries. I have a Digital Temp Meter, with the laser pointer, and surface temp on the Left Battery was 120 degrees. The Right battery concerned me at 140 Degrees. I installed the same Brand/Spec Batter in the Shelf above those two, to the Left of the Inverter. I have the Wire ready to plumb it in with Terminals etc., and a Boat/Marine Quality selector switch, I have, but did not install, as yet! I jumper that battery in from time to time to keep them on a relatively same charging/discharging cycle. Not the best method, but I know I need to wire it all up, soon! The spare battery was reading 117 degrees, and I am keeping the Bay Door open, to cool things down! I shut the Inverter off, as it read about 132 Degrees. The Fan seems to still continue to run, which is good! As said, I am taking that inverter out, to verify, Input Voltage and Output! So now that component is Suspect?
I see No Work Around with these conditions, but if there is, again, I am willing to try about anything. If a component needs replacement I will just stay in place, if need be, order and Install, any component, needed to fix this properly! When all things settle down with the battery though, I will try the two workarounds suggested already!
One is to find the Terminal that comes from the 3 Starting Batteries, and tie it directly to the Alternator, at the Battery Isolator, ....and see what happens, and also try and just Run the Genny with the Boost Switch on. Question there is how does one verify that the relay is in fact good, and it's location, please?
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: wolfe10 on July 16, 2019, 03:12:50 pm
Question there is how does one verify that the relay is in fact good, and it's location, please?
Very easy.
Measure voltage at chassis bank, then at house bank. They will be different (at least very highly likely they will be different).
Now, turn on boost switch.
Check again-- they should be exactly the same.
Note: easy to do this at the battery isolator outer lugs (one goes to each battery bank).
You can also temporarily hardwire the two battery banks together. Just move one of the cables from an outer lug on the battery isolator (goes to one battery bank) and ADD IT to the lug with cable going to the other battery bank.
Now batteries will all charge AND DISCHARGE together as one large battery bank.
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: turbojack on July 16, 2019, 03:48:51 pm
I am wondering if your volt meter is any good and giving bad reading? 12.2 Volts is too low, 17 is way to high, unless the volt meter is showing the wrong voltage which is possible.
Tom, Lets keep this simple to figure out what the problem is. First do what Brett has said in the post above this and then report back your answers.
I would add that after doing Brett's tests go and disconnect all batteries from each other and then check the voltage of each one after they have sat for at least 1/2 hr not connected to anything. Then come here and give us the voltage at each battery, coach and chassis. Since you also have temp gun it would not hurt to give us the temp of each battery when you are checking the voltage.
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Caflashbob on July 16, 2019, 04:27:52 pm
The Cummins as far as I know can run at 9 volts. Not sure on the Allison
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 16, 2019, 04:41:46 pm
After doing above, you can simply take the alternator off and take it to a shop to have tested. NAPA/Autozone/O'Reilly's can test for free. Use the internet to find the closest store and call them. If they can't do it, they will have a recommendation.
Pulling the alternator off only requires the most basic hand tools. Seems like that would be a lot easier than all that you have gone through. Do you know how to check the isolator and boost solenoid? What kind of voltmeter are you using?
Pierce
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: wolfe10 on July 16, 2019, 04:50:29 pm
Agree with Pierce that pulling the alternator is pretty simple. But, first I would verify that the alternator, not batteries, wiring, battery isolator, etc IS the problem.
The isolator is a good place to do your troubleshooting with a digital voltmeter as all the places you need to check are within a few inches of each other and any good clean metal there makes a good ground:
With engine off, generator off, inverter off, shore power disconnected: Record voltage at the two outer lugs of the isolator (each representing a battery bank.
Start the engine and raise to 1100 RPM or so.
Check and record voltage at the two outer lugs AND the center lug coming from the alternator B+ terminal.
Post the results.
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 16, 2019, 06:28:49 pm
Brett,
He may not know where the isolator is located. Probably different than our U300. You probably will have a better idea than I do.
Pierce
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on July 16, 2019, 07:42:03 pm
Reading the statements by OP above, he seems to think that 12.2 volts indicates a fully charged battery, when in fact it is actually only about 50% SOC, depending on battery type. The generic battery SOC chart below may help clear up any confusion?
If I am incorrect in thinking there is any question about what constitutes a fully charged 12 volt battery, then I apologize to Tom.
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 16, 2019, 07:52:04 pm
Yes, Chuck! Batteries are fully charged at about 12.7 volts. They will start to sulfate at 12.2V and below. See attached for voltages for conventional, AGM, GEL.
Pierce
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: RetiredGuns on July 16, 2019, 08:02:35 pm
Yes, I know just where the Isolator, is, and it has four Lugs. Labels are gone, but I can determine what each Lug is, by looking to where they go. So, the B+ as an example, as a Lug by itself is not labeled . I will label them, as I trace their source, easy enough! My multimeter is Brand New, as I misplaced a Lead to another known good one!
I have a Napa, within Walking Distance, and one of the reasons I picked this location, to figure this all out! That's all they have along I-70, in these parts and they are nearly in every small town, to support the Farming Industry! They cannot test, the Alternator on the Bench Here, but in the coach, they can!
Is it possible to just remove the connector on the alternator, while running, without harming anything else? It has External Excitation, With a Reference Voltage, that's just why I ask?
I really wonder though, if I have fried one the components, due to being plugged into shore Power Now, and getting over 17 Volt Charge, and with the Genny over 15 Volts! That concerns me, and points More to the Inverter/Converter, being the actual Issue, if it controls the Alternator, and making it charge at a lesser rate, going down the road? Again, something MUST be in common here that is causing all these Voltage Swings, in differing conditions! Running, it is a Massive Draw, whereas Charging, a Major Over-Charge! So, Alternator Low Charge, and diminishing the Batteries to 9 Volt, and then the Charge Cycle with Genny, and Shore Power, goes through the Roof!
Even with usual workarounds I have as an Option, Something, Somewhere is causing all this? And I fear going down the Highway, till it is right! So if anyone has ever experienced this exact issue, please elaborate, what it took to get it right again! Again, IF the Inverter/Charger, which is the Original Equipment Xantrex unit, and Display in the coach, actually can Draw a Huge Load, under Engine Power, maybe that is the actual Culprit in all of this? What am I missing?
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 16, 2019, 08:44:57 pm
Your alternator has a built in voltage regulator. It should deliver roughly 14.5 volts if the batteries are low tapering off as the batteries are charged. The isolator sends the alternator voltage to both engine and house batteries. If the inverter is turned off and not supplying 110V, there should be no draw. Don't confuse the inverter with the converter/charger. It converts 110V shore power to 12V to charge the batteries. It should be a 3 stage smart charger with adjustable settings.
If you have solar, it will have a controller to send just the right amount of voltage to the house batteries.
Go to YouTube videos to get a primer on RV charging systems.
Pierce
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Old Toolmaker on July 16, 2019, 08:49:27 pm
Again, IF the Inverter/Charger, which is the Original Equipment Xantrex unit, and Display in the coach, actually can Draw a Huge Load, under Engine Power, maybe that is the actual Culprit in all of this? What am I missing?
Basics. If you draw enough power from the alternator, the regulator will reduce voltage to protect the alternator from over current damage. If your Xantrex is running something by making 120VAC then yes it will stress the alternator.
Basics. If you draw enough power from the alternator, the regulator will reduce voltage to protect the alternator from over current damage. If your Xantrex is running something by making 120VAC then yes it will stress the alternator.
Never mind the details, That same 1500 watts = 12VDC X 125 Amperes.
Running your rooftop AC through the Inverter puts a serious load on the engine's alternator.
FWIW, coming back from Texas, and our recent run up to Clarksville and back we noticed that any load on the electric system dropped the DC voltage.
I've ordered a new serpentine belt for the Alternator.
Basics First.
Understood, Fully! And what Brett has Provided, makes sense, as well. I have had the House batteries Isolated for several Hours now, and will see what the Voltage is, and report back. What I cannot get through my Brain Housing Group, (Marinese ;) ) is how and why it is Fluctuating so much?
Not that it is a Complete Fix, I did see this in another Post! Could it help me? Maybe??? I do not want to kill $2500, Worth of Batteries, at this point, so anything that works to protect them, at all costs is worth it to me! The $39.00 one is what may work, but need to figure out how to tie it into the system, to protect and fix my issue! I hate Band Aids but whatever can work, is good to me!https://www.progressivedyn.com/service/shop/
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: RetiredGuns on July 17, 2019, 05:36:32 pm
Brett, just understand I need someone to Hammer, my Head, till the Lightbulb goes on! LOL I called Jeremy, @ the Factory, and explained the Whole ordeal I have been dealing with, and he feels that it is completely the issue! The Isolator has to be the Culprit, as a Bad Diode would allow a Higher Voltage for Charging, and for the Alternator to not Charge. With any luck, that is the Bad Component. I can go out and tie my Chassis Batteries with my Alternator, and also Isolate the Xantrex Inverter / Charger so it does not continue to Overcharge my House Batteries! So, at this point, it does appear I fried my Isolator, and Inverter / Charger? Hopefully that is the only things I have to replace? We shall see?
I am STILL relying on a Roadside Assistance, RV Tech, that Good Sam has just Contracted. He will be here sometime Tomorrow afternoon! I want him to actually FIX the issue, if Possible? Too many anomalies in this whole scenario still does not add up, to me! If I have to, I will Wire it up as suggested, but since Good Sam will help, I will take that as well! Just to let you know, they were ready to NOT Assist as they did get me off the Roadside! I asked to speak to a Supervisor, and he listened, to my plight, and approved a Technician! I just want to get a Complete Fix, if I can!
Good Sam, has spent at least $2,000.00 so far, and have been Pretty Cooperative, given the Circumstances! I give them a 4, out of 5, , as well! All I can say, is don't leave home without some Roadside Assistance plan, unless you can handle Thousands in being safely off the road, at least! I will ask what he will charge them Tomorrow for their Mobile repair Service, as well! I am a Member of FMCA, but do not have their Roadside Service Plan! I may get that as well, as a Backup, possibly?
So, I will check for resources on here, but does anyone possibly have a NAPA replacement Part Number for the Appropriate Isolator?
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: wolfe10 on July 17, 2019, 05:49:56 pm
But, can't quite noodle through how a bad battery isolator could cause an inverter/charger to charge at extreme high voltage.
Brett, I totally Agree! You are not here, and offered that Absolute Best advice you could! The Technician, Tomorrow, will Hopefully be Competent to actually Fix it! I will report all his findings and conclusions to share with all, of course! Thanks for that Part Number Sir!
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: RetiredGuns on July 17, 2019, 06:23:02 pm
OOPS I have a 4 Pole. That one is a 3 pole! The P/N they gave me, was 7821268 rated at 120 AMP, and was the Highest they offered. If I have 160 AMP Alternator, would it just FRY that one, eventually? If not, I will order it ASAP, as they have Overnight Delivery, and I'd like it here for the Tech to replace! Thanks!
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: wolfe10 on July 17, 2019, 06:47:41 pm
So, look at your wiring diagram/actual wiring. What is the "extra" lug connected to?
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on July 17, 2019, 08:14:59 pm
Brett, I totally Agree! You are not here, and offered that Absolute Best advice you could! The Technician, Tomorrow, will Hopefully be Competent to actually Fix it! I will report all his findings and conclusions to share with all, of course! Thanks for that Part Number Sir!
The other thought is to simplify. Take the battery isolator out the the system, throw away the ability to charge the house batteries while you drive and use the engine driven alternator to charge only the chassis battery and run the chassis while you drive. If you're dry camping, your generator will top up the house battery(s) with four hours or less of run time. So if you run the genny to power your microwave or convection oven you get a two-fer. Battery top off and hot food.
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on July 18, 2019, 12:34:32 pm
You and Brett are of similar mind - he often advocates for the advantages of replacing the isolator with a simple manual switch. This would be the same basic setup as you describe, but with the added capability of combining both battery banks when desired.
Either your idea or Brett's would work fine, as long as the coach owner is willing to carefully monitor the SOC of both battery banks.
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 18, 2019, 12:51:21 pm
You and Brett are of similar mind - he often advocates for the advantages of replacing the isolator with a simple manual switch. This would be the same basic setup as you describe, but with the added capability of combining both battery banks when desired. Either your idea or Brett's would work fine, as long as the coach owner is willing to carefully monitor the SOC of both battery banks.
With the twin voltmeters right in front of you, you cannot miss a reading that is different than it normally has. It's like an oil pressure gauge, gets your attention in a hurry. Since they draws so little current, I keep them switched on 24/7/365.
Isolator was a good idea at the time but like so many things on our coaches, just one more complex item to go wrong.
Pierce
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Old Toolmaker on July 18, 2019, 02:52:37 pm
Isolator was a good idea at the time but like so many things on our coaches, just one more complex item to go wrong.
Pierce
It's not that the original battery isolator is complex, far from it. But it throws the concept of junction voltage into the mix adding a source of confusion. Once you grasp the fact that the voltage coming out is going to be 0.7V less than what went into the diode no matter how high or low the current flow, you're on the path to true knowledge.
I'm faced with either figuring out the current path between my batteries, the power supply and the engine driven alternator or replacing the original isolator with a bi directional relay disconnect that senses the voltage on either side. But first I'm installing new drive belts. Just to see what happens.
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: wolfe10 on July 18, 2019, 02:56:50 pm
Another issue with diode-based isolators is that they can take out the alternator if the "inlet" diode fails. Alternators will put you in time out if you ask them to feed an open circuit!
That is why there is a warning on marine battery switches: "STOP ENGINE BEFORE SWITCHING OFF": PERKO Inc. - Catalog - Battery Switches - Heavy Duty Battery Disconnect... (http://www.perko.com/catalog/battery_switches/99/heavy_duty_battery_disconnect_switch/)
As has been well covered here many times, there are other options, ranging from virtually bomb-proof (simple marine ON-OFF switch with alternator B+ and chassis battery to one lug and house battery to the other lug), to solenoid-based isolators/combiners to a new diode-based isolator. The battery switch above is rated 450 amps continuous, 1200 amps intermittent-- no it will not raise a sweat in our application.
IMO, the critical part is properly diagnosing exactly what is wrong before throwing parts at it. Anyone who can tell you that the alternator is bad without checking the isolator is, well ............................... in no danger of being drafted to be a rocket scientist.
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on July 18, 2019, 03:24:15 pm
Isolator was a good idea at the time but like so many things on our coaches, just one more complex item to go wrong.
I'm not gonna argue for or against isolators. I think every coach owner should equip their coach as they see fit. There are certainly MANY ways to skin the multi-bank battery charging cat, and they all have merits. As always, DWMYH
But I do have to say the OEM HEHR Powerline isolator that was factory installed on our old coach seemed to be remarkably robust. Last year, when I electively replaced it, it was still working fine after 25 years and 180,000 odd miles of service. Even mounted in the exposed location under the coach and behind the rear wheels, it was in great shape cosmetically after I scrubbed off years of grime. With no moving parts, and just 2 or 3 diodes completely embedded in potting resin and housed in a finned aluminum case, I would also have a hard time categorizing a classic isolator as a "complex item"...but that's just me.
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Caflashbob on July 18, 2019, 03:45:55 pm
Shall I again mention the industry standard auto combiner no loss no error system.
Tell me again why it would not be better?
Versus damage battery systems that are many times more expensive?
I am not that stubborn myself.
The manual requires no mistakes. This is auto /manual
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 18, 2019, 04:18:30 pm
But I do have to say the OEM HEHR Powerline isolator that was factory installed on our old coach seemed to be remarkably robust. Last year, when I electively replaced it, it was still working fine after 25 years and 180,000 odd miles of service. Even mounted in the exposed location under the coach and behind the rear wheels, it was in great shape cosmetically after I scrubbed off years of grime. With no moving parts, and just 2 or 3 diodes completely embedded in potting resin and housed in a finned aluminum case, I would also have a hard time categorizing a classic isolator as a "complex item"...but that's just me.
While it has no moving parts and yours has been trouble free, when it does fail as ours did, it becomes complex as you can't just throw a knife switch and get back on the road. Diagnosing the problem and installing a replacement that may take a day or three are what I was getting at. Our coach's PO replaced theirs but incorrectly and was a real headache until it was sorted.
And yes, what was Foretravel thinking when they put that electrical panel under the coach where it would get all the road salt, etc.?They must have hired retired Lucas employees. I'm amazed anything works from that panel.
Pierce
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Caflashbob on July 18, 2019, 04:40:19 pm
Cheaper shorter wiring runs. Beaver had the stuff in a bedroom eye height side cabinet. And a manual large switch from shore to gen. And a resettable flip breaker marine grade 12 volt panel in the same area.
For some functions beaver used auto reset circuit breakers on the firewall under the hood. Everything corrosion coated
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: RetiredGuns on July 21, 2019, 03:16:20 pm
Latest, and Greatest! Been in an RV Park, here in Stratton CO., for exactly a week, now! The Temps have made it Impossible, (101-106) until today, to actually go out and try and troubleshoot this! The Isolator is located on the Frame, in the Left Wheel Well, and I cannot reach it effectively to get ANY reading whatsoever! This Morning, the Chassis Batteries depleted to 11 Volts in a weeks time, plugged in to Shore Power. I purposely disconnected the Coach batteries, all because of the Charging @ 17-19Vdc, going on! I did not want to blow them up! I charged the Starting batteries up, and was able to Start the coach. It's been running for about an hour, and the Dash Gauge, still reads 11 Volts of Charge. So about 30 Minutes ago, I put the Generator on, and now reading 12.7V Chassis Batteries, and 14.3V House Batteries.
I have exhausted any way of getting it troubleshot, for sure, here, being so remote, so I am going to roll, with my fingers crossed, that the Charge doesn't go back up to 17-19Vdc.
I do have a Rebuilt Alternator, which crossed to a Leece Neville 160 AMP, at NAPA, but I am keeping the Hehr/Prestolite, PN# 25-15 ($60.00 Core!!!) 190 AMP, and try and rebuild it, or get it rebuilt? I have rebuilt Alternators in the past, but cannot find a new Regulator for it, nor a Rebuild kit? If anyone has a resource for it, please post it up?
If, at this point, the system starts going all squirrelly on me again, I will tie the Isolator wires all together, and change out the Alternator I have too! The reason, I do not want to do so, is if ANYTHING else is in the System, causing an Issue, I do not want to burn up a $500.00 Alternator! I will keep this one as a Spare anyway, for future issues!
Thanks all for your Patience with me! This past week has been really hard, as we didn't know when we'd get out of here? I am going to chance it all, and head East, in a few hours, or rest, and leave early tomorrow! With the Generator Running!
I promised the DW, I will learn where every wire goes, what should do what, and also fix all the wires that the 7 Mice I killed at the beginning of this trip caused! CB #1 has not worked, for 8 months now, because of them, and other small issues arose from those critters as well! We now use 1/4 Pieces of Irish Spring Soap, throughout the coach, in Lower Storage Compartments, everywhere, throughout the coach, and have not had an issue since! I know there is a Wire they ate that caused that issue!
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: RetiredGuns on July 21, 2019, 03:32:34 pm
I want to add, it did not seem to be charging the DC Circuit, while Plugged into Shore Power, and we refrained from using it the whole week, too! But now seems to be charging it on the Genny? That's truly what does not add up to me, and why I am hesitating Changing the Alternator! The DW, wants to wait until Tomorrow, now to shove off, as I have been out trying to figure this all out, before braving another possible Breakdown, over this! BTW, NAPA only had a 120 AMP Isolator, and I'd want at least a 200 AMP model, to replace this one!
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: rbark on July 21, 2019, 04:06:09 pm
1/4 pieces of Irish Spring? I use 2 or more bars in each bay. Love that smell😁
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Old Toolmaker on July 21, 2019, 06:24:34 pm
I want to add, it did not seem to be charging the DC Circuit, while Plugged into Shore Power, and we refrained from using it the whole week, too! But now seems to be charging it on the Genny? That's truly what does not add up to me, and why I am hesitating Changing the Alternator! The DW, wants to wait until Tomorrow, now to shove off, as I have been out trying to figure this all out, before braving another possible Breakdown, over this! BTW, NAPA only had a 120 AMP Isolator, and I'd want at least a 200 AMP model, to replace this one!
You don't *NEED* and isolator. All the isolator is there for is to keep you from discharging your chassis battery when you leave your reading lamp on all night.
If your Xantrex is charging when on the generator but not while on shore power, check to see if the AC is making it to the Xantrex while on shore power. You could have a bad contact in the change over relay.
And FWIW and not being snarky, are you certain you're measuring 17-19 VDC and not 17-19 millivolts?
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: red tractor on July 21, 2019, 07:40:13 pm
To Retired Guns when you are driving without the generator. Do you have the inverter turned on? The reason I ask is If the inverter is on then that would keep your refrigerator from switching to gas and to power the ac part of the refrigerator takes a lot of 12 volt power.
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: RetiredGuns on July 22, 2019, 01:25:19 am
You don't *NEED* and isolator. All the isolator is there for is to keep you from discharging your chassis battery when you leave your reading lamp on all night.
If your Xantrex is charging when on the generator but not while on shore power, check to see if the AC is making it to the Xantrex while on shore power. You could have a bad contact in the change over relay.
And FWIW and not being snarky, are you certain you're measuring 17-19 VDC and not 17-19 millivolts?
I took the front panel off the Bottom and did not detect incoming AC, onshore Power. Are you referring to the ATS, under the Bed, left side? I swear, I should have changed that out, a while back, suspecting that to be an issue, than determined it was not! I physically checked it this time, seemed OK, but will actually clean the Contacts, with 1000 Grit, maybe? Whatever I seemed to mess with, fixed it....temporarily, I am sure! The Alternator still isn't charging over maybe 11 Volts, but I am keeping the Genny running while rolling anyway! Need the Air Conditioning!
I wish it was 17-18 Millivolts, Shore an Genny power, first seemed to draw power, then changed to Overcharging! The Gremlins galore have kept me busy, without a doubt! Never a Dull Moment on this trip, for sure!
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: RetiredGuns on July 22, 2019, 01:33:21 am
To Retired Guns when you are driving without the generator. Do you have the inverter turned on? The reason I ask is If the inverter is on then that would keep your refrigerator from switching to gas and to power the ac part of the refrigerator takes a lot of 12 volt power.
Actually, I believe I do! True, but on or off, the Alternator may still be toast! As said I want to ring out all the wires, and may be investing in what we call a Megger. (Meg Ohm Meter) It can locate Shorts, Opens, and High Resistance in wires! Great Tool, just don't know anyone with one to rent? The Mice did a Number on me, and that is the only device that can actually tell me what and where the damage is!
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: John44 on July 22, 2019, 07:22:40 am
Generator repair shops will have a megger.
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: RetiredGuns on July 22, 2019, 11:32:04 am
True, actually the heat got to me again! A TDR (Time Domain Reflectometer) is the best tool for wire issues! Hey as I age, it seems the more I try and use my OLD Skills the worse it gets! I truly haven't thought about my Electronic Skills in decades, now! As they say, rust never sleeps!
So, I have a Theory for the Voltage Increase! It's nearly a day now, and my Coach & Chassis Batteries are stabilizing, at 14.2 Vdc, once again! A big sigh of relief, as I believe I have at least caught the errant charging, before complete destruction of over 2 Coach Bucks of Batteries, got fried, in the process!
When I took the Lower Right Bottom Panel, of the Xantrex Panel, off, to check incoming voltage, I noticed the wire nuts were semi-loose! The Solid Conductor was green on each of the 3 wires and the Stranded wire, that went around the solid conductor, had Corrosion that caused dust to just come off it! A wire brush, made short order of that! I cleaned all that off, and securely tightened the wire nuts, back on! I then used electrical tape to seal it better, from that happening again! A dab of dielectric grease, would have served the same purpose, as well!
Conclusion : The resistance increased, then followed by a Voltage increase, caused it to read 17 Vdc, and spiking to 19Vdc!
It would not hurt, for those with issues, or even Preventative Maintenance, look at your wires there! Make sure ALL power is off, and Isolated from any Batteries, as well, before you do, that, of course! The incoming House Battery cables in the rear, are better sealed, but I still took the Twist Locks off, and spun the Large Leads, a bit, as well! Who knows how many people have tossed their Xantrex, Inverter/Charger, because of the same Issue, perhaps?
Anyway, that is MY conclusion, on that! Hope that can help someone in the future, as well?
As always, thanks for sticking with this 'ol Jarhead! I feel confident to head back on out now, on my journey home! It sure has been an experience, in all this heat! In a few short months though we will all be complaining about the Cold1 ;)
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Old Toolmaker on July 22, 2019, 05:55:00 pm
Actually, I believe I do! True, but on or off, the Alternator may still be toast! As said I want to ring out all the wires, and may be investing in what we call a Megger. (Meg Ohm Meter) It can locate Shorts, Opens, and High Resistance in wires! Great Tool, just don't know anyone with one to rent? The Mice did a Number on me, and that is the only device that can actually tell me what and where the damage is!
Do you want a Megger that you crank? Or one that looks like a multimeter built to fry electronics?
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: RetiredGuns on July 22, 2019, 08:11:19 pm
Do you want a Megger that you crank? Or one that looks like a multimeter built to fry electronics?
I am looking for the Cheapest one that actually works! Same with a TDR. I do miss having electronic Gizmo's that make life much easier!
I do believe my coach could use them, too! LOL
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: jcus on July 22, 2019, 09:13:08 pm
VC60B+ Digital Insulation Resistance Tester Megger MegOhmmeter Meter 250V... (https://www.ebay.com/itm/VC60B-Digital-Insulation-Resistance-Tester-Megger-MegOhmmeter-Meter-250V-1000V/372487061044?epid=19024652250&hash=item56b9f57e34)
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: RetiredGuns on July 23, 2019, 12:32:32 pm
VC60B+ Digital Insulation Resistance Tester Megger MegOhmmeter Meter 250V... (https://www.ebay.com/itm/VC60B-Digital-Insulation-Resistance-Tester-Megger-MegOhmmeter-Meter-250V-1000V/372487061044?epid=19024652250&hash=item56b9f57e34)
Thank You Sir! I will ordering that ASAP! Excellent...if it works, of course?
I have been searching for TDR's as well! While a Megger has it's use, it does have limitations, that a TDR, solves! They are Dead on for troubleshooting wire issues!
I do appreciate that link!
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: RetiredGuns on July 23, 2019, 12:51:38 pm
Do you want a Megger that you crank? Or one that looks like a multimeter built to fry electronics?
So, are you saying that the Multimeter type, Above can Fry Electronics? I might have to buy the Crank style , I have used before, that is all I ever used anyway! We had issues with digital Multimeters, Frying Circuit Boards, on the A6-E, Intruders in the 'Corps, we had the Top of the line Fluke 77's at the time in the late 70's - 80's! So some circuits required the Old but great Simpson - 260, Multimeter! You also NEVER used a Digital type on an Armed Rail of any Aircraft, as stray Output Voltage could Pickle a Bomb or Missile to actuate and go BOOM! ;) The 1967 USS Forrestal historic epic fire was possibly the culprit of such uses of a Digital!
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: jcus on July 23, 2019, 01:06:53 pm
I have never seen a megger, either battery operated or crank type that not produce a current. If it doesn't , wouldn't it just be an ohm meter?https://www.marineinsight.com/marine-electrical/construction-and-operation-of-megger-explained/
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Old Toolmaker on July 23, 2019, 01:39:17 pm
Lynn bought one of these for use on the last real job we had.
The problem comes in when the un-initiated try to use the multimeter functions and "push the button." You can do damage to electronics with a regular ohm meter, the high voltage necessary for a mega-ohmmeter is guaranteed to fry electronics.
As a gifted but sometimes slow witted toolmaker, Lynn relegates me to using VTVM, crank type meggers and any oscilloscope he doesn't care about. Giving me time to realize my error before frying stuff.
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Jan & Richard on July 23, 2019, 01:49:43 pm
Who knows how many people have tossed their Xantrex, Inverter/Charger, because of the same Issue, perhaps?
Anyway, that is MY conclusion, on that! Hope that can help someone in the future, as well?
Count me as one who could have used this information years ago.
Ten years ago I burned up a thousand dollars of house batteries with charging voltages spiking up to 27 volts . After talking to techs at ProSine I concluded my inverter/charger was badly malfunctioning and replaced it for another coach buck. Now, after reading about your experience I probably could have saved myself many headaches and dollars by simply tightening a couple of bolts.
Thanks for sharing, and like you I hope this helps others.
Richard
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: jcus on July 23, 2019, 02:53:01 pm
Have never used a megger on electronics, always on motors, generators, big transformers etc. As they produce 250, 1000 or more volts I can see why it would be a bad idea. A multimeter also uses voltage to measure resistance, but is usually far less than 10 volts.
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: wolfe10 on July 23, 2019, 04:48:21 pm
For 95% of electric diagnosis on a motorhome's 12 VDC and 120 VAC system, a simple digital voltmeter is all you need.
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 23, 2019, 05:50:48 pm
I have all of Klein's digital meters including the true RMS clamp meter. They have saved me a ton finding a shorted knob and tube fault when an electrician and two assistants could not find it but charged me $250. I did have to drive 500 miles but.
The meter I use most is the Harbor Freight digital multimeter for $6.39. Reads the same voltages as the Klein and I give them for stocking stuffers at Xmas. https://www.harborfreight.com/7-function-digital-multimeter-63759.html
Pierce
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: RetiredGuns on July 24, 2019, 12:34:36 am
For 95% of electric diagnosis on a motorhome's 12 VDC and 120 VAC system, a simple digital voltmeter is all you need.
Fully understand that, Brett! My issue is short of Rewiring the Entire Coach, I want to Fully determine that those Vermin, didn't destroy even more wiring, that is an Unknown, to bite me in the future! Meters are handy, but knowing what can and will happen, when wires toast themselves, I want to bring out the Big Guns, to ensure that any issues like I have been having are not shutting me down again, like this! I removed 2 nests in the Under Floor Conduit!!! Insulation breakdown/EATEN, can be quite a Show Stopper, and I have quite a chore ahead of me! I like challenges, so it's all good! It has been a pretty Harrowing Experience I do not wish to repeat, soon, though! All the help, so far, from folks like yourself again, has been quite the Godsend! Someday, perhaps, I too will reach your level of Expertise on Coach Issue Resolution, till then, I read, read, and do more reading about systems I have little knowledge of, and gain confidence, the more I delve into my Unknowns! All this would been enjoyable, if this Journey itself wasn't so long and protracted, as it has become, as well! As I said to my wife, every endeavor becomes an adventure, for me! ;)
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Jack Lewis on July 24, 2019, 02:38:32 am
Regarding Pierce's comments. I like to at least have an audible continuity tester. https://www.harborfreight.com/11-function-digital-multimeter-with-audible-continuity-61593.html
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: wolfe10 on July 24, 2019, 08:24:06 am
Fully understand that, Brett! My issue is short of Rewiring the Entire Coach, I want to Fully determine that those Vermin, didn't destroy even more wiring, that is an Unknown, to bite me in the future! )
Yup, for tracing wires (vs solving charging problem) you are exactly on target.
Title: Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 24, 2019, 10:15:46 am
Regarding Pierce's comments. I like to at least have an audible continuity tester. https://www.harborfreight.com/11-function-digital-multimeter-with-audible-continuity-61593.html
That's why I have a drawer full of Klein testers in the coach.