I have been busy the last few days cutting out my basement floor. I have a sister coach to JohnFitz. A while back he posted a write up of his issue and rebuild. In 2014 when I got this coach I had issues under battery box area and made repairs to support. I had found rot then. I have been watching it and recently noticed more separation. I opened up the bottom and after seeing what I saw I decided to go ahead and fix it for good. I have been in contact with John and am going to try and follow his footprints in this repair. I have the bottom cut out and will pick up material tomorrow. My semi is in suspension shop for more days so I'll work on coach. Anyway here are some pictures, because everybody likes pictures..
WOW is all I can say.. Just Wow.. Great undertaking.... Wow. ^.^d ^.^d ^.^d
Mad skills Stump. Best wishes for a fast, easy fix.
Was gonna come up and see if you needed help.....keep in touch...
I don't envy you, but I'm certainly glad that you're doing it right!
Stump- another person who did a basement rebuild is Don ( Acousticart). He is another resource for DIY rebuilds.
Best of luck buddy, that is a big project, but I know you are a big man and can handle it. ;)
Best paint I've found for rust is Rust Bullit,better then Por15,check them out.
I will check it out, Thanks. I have everything covered in OSPHO now.
Holy smokes!
Good luck with that. I don't envy you right now, but better to do it yourself than have someone else mess it up.
I found a severely rusted bolt on one of my bay slides the other day. My basement was done by a not to be mentioned repair facility in Nac. Not sure why one or more of these big bolts should be fully rusting out after only a few years after the job was done. But I suspect I know why.
Go Stump.... I imagine most 91 motorhomes are headed ( or in) the bone yard. Good on ya for keeping a classic alive.
Yes, OSPHO has been the standard rust treatment for deep sea sailors for many years.
And remember,OSPHO is good but it's a primer,it's only as good as the top coat.
Really looking forward to seeing your progress on this project, Stump. You, Don and a few others set the bar pretty high! Thanks for posting the photos. In looking at the first one showing the entire structure I was reminded of my time in Nacogdoches when I got mine done by Motorhomes. I was down at the welding shop watching them work when one of the guys showed me pieces large and small of others they had worked on. Most looked much worse than yours. It will be great to have all new.
jor
I was turned on to it by a fireman on one of the fire boats at Long Beach Harbor. Have used it for years to stop the rust and because it becomes the primer just painted over it. On my boat trailer used Rustolium epoxy after the Ospho
30 + years ago when I worked at a chemical dipping company ( friend started it to clean his own 55 Chevy parts) they used ospho to coat EVERYTHING when it came out of the acid Dip tank. It immediately stopped all surface rust and I also learned how good it was for attacking general rust.
Basement Floor
I picked up my metal today and brought it home. I started on the rear bulkhead box tube . I measured and cut it to the old one. I fitted it up and secured it with clamps adjusted it side to side and clamped it tight. I took my hand drill with a 5/16th cobalt bit and drilled into it to mark the locations. The holes by the tires are too close to get the drill in so I marked each one I could took steel off and over to my drill press setup and drilled those holes. I then took it back to the coach and bolted it up on the backside of the bulkhead. I then drilled the remaining holes through the opposite way because now I had room for the drill and bit. Tomorrow I will pick up new 3/8 grade 8 bolts and nuts and fasten it all back in. Then I will start on the bay divider wall stringers and get all those holes drilled. This one piece was 4.5 hours of work. It doesn't look like much progress but in this repair it is a big milestone!
At my shop we use a solution that put a micro etch on the material and anywhere it touches the metal.. it has cut my rust service calls to almost nothing.. Might be worth making a plastic dipping tank with visqueen plastic roll.. with a rust inhibitor for the inside of the tube.. considering where its going... 2 2x4 on the ground with the plastic laid over it with the solution you can set the pieces of tube in to soak.. just an idea.
Interesting But I think this repair will suffice. We are looking at a 28 year old coach also. I think this will last as long as I use it.
Dont think this would be for you for the most part... would be for the next guy.. if any ^.^d
Thats how I would do it just because..Dont think these really rust from the outside "in"... think the water gets through the bolts and water sits in the tube and rusts from the inside "out".. Just a guess.. Also, do what you feel is correct.. in 20 years I dont think it will matter as you say.
Basement Floor.
More progress made this afternoon after spending the morning chasing semi truck parts for the suspension shop.
I got all the 3/8 Grade 8 fasteners and mounted rear bulkhead 1/8 box tube. Next was to cut and drill the first divider wall to proper length and then the holes to match up with existing holes in wall metal. The metal looks structurally good with nice clean threads. I will use new rolock bolts again on these walls as Foretravel did. I will use red locktight on final assembly and use my torque wrench to tighten them up.
What I am finding is the metal in old bottom is so corroded the measurements are not working out check check and check again. I am in a way having to reverse engineer this as I assemble it mounted on the coach. I ran a piece if box tube from the rear bulkhead up to the front cutoff and clamped it.this gave me a accurate reference point to measure over to divider wall holes and make accurate marks for the holes. My plan is to get the last divider wall stringer cut and drilled. Once it is mounted my plan is to check my original reference point measurement and if that is all good I will tack weld all this up on the coach bolted in position. Then drop it back out and cut and tack weld the box webbing in place. Then reinstall it making sure nothing has tweaked if still good make a couple good welds then drop it back out and finish weld it....
For metal airplanes ( and old race cars)we blow hot linseed oil into the tubes.
Really nice job Stump. I assume that you have the bus on jack stands for the entire length? Well done.
I have it sitting on. 2x6 blocks i used levels and got it pretty dang level side to side and front to back. I then put 8 4x4 blocks cut at 8" between upper and lower frame rails and dropped air bags.I made some measurements from rear bulkhead forward past where I cut so if anything shifted front to back i would know and be able to correct it. So far nothing seems to have changed.
In the Aircraft world, they use AV40. Ardrox AV 40 is a heat resistant, colorless, corrosion inhibiting compound (CIC) that forms a tack-free, firm film. AV 40 is applied as a corrosion-inhibiting coating to protect metals commonly used in airframe structures and in aerospace components. AV 40 is designed for use in areas of the aircraft exposed to elevated temperatures. Typical applications include engine components, pylons and cowlings. AV 40 will withstand continuous temperatures up to 150°C (302°F) and short term exposure to temperatures up to 210°C (410°F). AV 40 is colorless and can be applied to aircraft exterior surfaces exposed to high temperatures, (for example, adjacent to auxiliary power unit (APU) exhaust systems where hot gases are expelled).
AV 40 is not affected by contact with alkaline cleaning chemicals or high pressure hot water cleaning.
Everything is coming together. Just about ready to drop the frame out and finnish weld joints. Then coat everything with Rust Bullet . Reinsulate and add skin. More to come....
When you mix the rust bullet remember to stir not shake,keeps the air bubbles down.
Basement Floor.. I got the frame all welded up and the top and bottom welds ground flat. I got a good coat if rust bullet on it and will flip it over in the morning and coat other side.I also coated the rear bulkhead 1/4 angle and the bottom part of my filler plate. I will rust bullet that once the too edge is welded in.
As I have been in and under my coach doing this repair I see where there were design issues that allowed this to happen. I got this in 2014 so it was 24 yrs old then. But this rot had started much earlier. I see what I think is the main culprit for this. The fresh water tank has a overflow tube. It is a green looking ribbed tube. It runs behind the water heater over to the back bulkhead wall. If you look in your waterpump heater bay you should see it. The problem is when you fill your tank most of us wait until we have water running down outside just in front of rear wheel. Well I usually do. So you fill water tank and off you go.Well that water overflow runs from the top of the tank and back to that bulkhead fitting. When your tank is full or near the top whenever you start to slosh water driving down the road or turn left water runs out that pipe it works it's way back and runs out. Where, right down the back wall and seeps down into your rear bulkhead flooring. Over all those years that uncoated metal got wet.
I am going to run a PVC tube from that point down to the bottom below the bulkhead area. This is just my opinion after doing all this repair. Here are some pictures! Because Everybody Loves Pictures!!!
Way to go Stump......Great work !!
Stump,now would be a good time to redo those torque rod bushings.
Nice work, Stump. It's really shaping up. ^.^d
That overflow pipe has been the topic of concern for this to happen for a few years. I read the posting years ago and changed the location after reading it but I never fill the tank more than 3/4 anyway so should not have been an issue to me..
Never needed a full tank as water is available anywhere, even if you have to buy the big bottles at a Wally world or so.
JohnH
Great job Stump ^.^d
Nice job👍👍
Great job! Impressive to say the least!
Quality work.....Great job.
Incredible work Stump. Let us know when you can go camping.
Yeah the overflow is poorly designed. As is much of the plumbing system imo. Should have been led to below the coach.
When I see the abilities of the people on this forum I feel like a second grader in a high school chemistry class. You folks are amazing.
I have a question about the rusty surface on the steel bulkhead plate. I guess that's what you call it. Just what needs to be done with that surface ? Apparently it doesn't need to be ground down to bare metal, then primed and painted. Because I'm sure if that was necessary , Stump would be doing it. I'm guessing that most of the coatings that are mentioned here will stop that rust from spreading and / or neutralize it. And if that's the case, how about the joints or seams that you can't get to. Which coating is better at penetrating into those areas.
The one I'm most familiar with is Ospho but even it needs to be painted for proper protection. Living here in the Pacific Northwest rust is a constant concern cause it rains so much and although they don't use much salt on the roads YET , if you just ignore water intrusion it will still rust. ESPECIALLY if you've recently spent some time on the Texas gulf coast where I hear it's some of the most corrosive conditions of any coast. I now have some light surface rust on our coach that wasn't there before.
Last year when we were there ( Mustang Island ) I sprayed some stuff on the undercarriage of the MH and the Jeep so the surface rust is no worse than before. I am just super paranoid about any rusty situation advancing.
So, I guess two questions. One is , the best solution for established rust that your not grinding off and the second question. A solution for arresting surface rust.
Or I could do like one of the guys on the Jeep forum. Once a year when he rotates the tires then rattle cans the heck out of the wheel well area ( has since new ) and it still looks great. Sorry about the long post.
I sprayed undercoating on the whole width of the angle iron, covering the Roloks also. The work to check torque the Rolok is a small price to pay to keep all water out of that side of the bulkhead
Bob I did gribd and flap wheel the 1/4 bulkhead angle iron. It was then ospho coated which stops and neutralizes rust. Then it was coated with a product called Rust Bullet
When everything is back together I will rust Bullet coat that area in back of the bulkhead.I then plan to something like Flex Seal sprayed along the back seam on the rear bulkhead angle iron.
In my opinion I think the cause came primarily from the fresh water tank overflow. It is at the top right backside of the bulkhead and water runs straight down onto the bulkhead seam. I think a good sealer along that seam will help tremendously. Jmo. Everything back there on mine will be sealed anywhere it even looks like a drip of water can seep in. :thumbsup:
Had some rust a couple of years ago in back of the front tires at the level of the basement floor,fixed and painted but then made some mud flaps to keep water away.
Stump.
I'll pick up some of the rust bullet stuff and give it a try. Thanks for documenting everything so well.
I put the basement back in today. I got the rear bolted up loose and finagled the front in place. I got clamps on it and started some divider wall bolts in holes.
I tack welded it in and then went back and finnish welded them. The old tube is being a pain to weld as it wants to blow out. I have a couple of horizontal supports that go in next. Ill get my neighbor Dennis to come and finnish the bottom welds. He is a pro. But it is all coming together. Not bad for a one man show....
Please tell us that we could bribe you to do others?
Maybe he mad a jig? or a template?
No jig no template. A lot of measuring. Let's see what happens when I take the jacks and blocks out. The damn thing might buckle in half and drop to the ground.if that happens.........I'll need a drum roll ...
And a drink.. a big drink .. very potent drink
Project has been going smooth. Everything is welded in and bolted up.I got the wetbay back wall metal coated with paint and the original fiberglass sheet reglued. Yesterday I cut opening for sewer hose and got waste and water tanks back in place . Now to get all the plumbing reconnected and the tank level wiring reconnected. I am going to build a new battery tray for the 8Ds that will bolt into the new framework. Hope to get that done next weekend. Have to go trucking now
Golden Earring - Radar Love (1973) HD 0815007 - YouTube (https://youtu.be/Zf53Pg2AkdY)
stump, what did you use to bond the FRP?
Thanks,
Greg
Loctite® PL Premium® FAST GRAB Polyurethane Construction Adhesive (https://www.loctiteproducts.com/en/products/build/construction-adhesives/loctite_pl_premiumfastgrabpolyurethaneconstructionadhesive.html)
Thought I'd update on my project.
I got water tanks, heater and sewer plumbing all back in. I welded up and bolted in a tray for the AGM batteries. I still have to skin the cut in the bottom splice and reinstall siderails. I have some painting to do first. All in all its going smooth. I got semi back and am hauling freight so this will be my weekend project for a few more weeks.
Rolok bolts are still made, easy to find.
Rolok® - Semblex (https://www.semblex.com/technologies/rolok/)
I bought some the other week for my bay wall from MOT they said they use them a lot
Stump, I've got a question for you. It looks to me like the basement framework is relatively light weight. Are the weights of tanks, batteries, cargo etc supported by it? Or is load transferred to the main coach frame by the bulkhead dividers between compartments?
Yes chuck weight of tanks, batteries etc is all supported by basement framework. Divider walls attach also so its pretty stout. I used 1/8 wall tube on rear bulkhead and the 2 side to side ribs inder divider walls and 1/16 wall for sides and short connect pieces. Actually the 1/16 wall looked thicker than what foretravel used to my eye.
The basement drawing I found calls out 18 gauge tubing, with the exception of ⅛" for the bulkhead joints.
Don
Your 1/16" is heavier than the original 18 gauge .0625 vs .05 good eye to see that difference.
what is the name of this solution and can it be bought over the counter ?
Are you talking about Alodine?
Alodine cannot be used on steel or it will corrode the steel. Made for aluminum only.
JohnH
I always like 0.125" A little heavier but no big deal. Let me know the size/thickness and I can give you a price per 20 foot length from the supplier I use. Good to get an idea of what it's going to cost.
An Alodine conversion that works so well on aluminum does not do the trick on steel. A mix of gallic and formic acid followed by spray galvanizing gives good protection. Rust-Oleum has 20 oz for about $6 while other brands can cost up to 8X as much like Rust Proof Coating For Metal | Prevents Rust & Corrosion | Superior Industrie... (https://www.superior-industries.com/zin_kote_601_product_199.html) Don't know the advantage of one over they other. I used one of the following last year on a trailer. Had to wear a mask but it is chip resistant and dries hard as a rock. About $100/gal delivered. Brush or spray. If you get the black on your hands or anywhere else, it has to wear off. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/kco-57001. Summit racing gives quick service.
Pierce
The Summit link gives a message that it can't be found.
Thanks. How about this one: https://www.summitracing.com/paintandbody . I just tried it with Chrome and Firefox and it come up fine for me.
Pierce
Rust Bullet undercoating/primer is another great product.
What thickness of tubing do people rebuild their bulkhead with it looks like the manufacture used 3/16 i am think of using # 8 bolts What type of insulation i have other people try for example spray in foam
CapeBretoner, if you check into Reply #57 you'll find tubing wall thickness.
My basement rebuild (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=37910.msg369958#msg369958)
" I used 1/8 wall tube on rear bulkhead and the 2 side to side ribs inder divider walls and 1/16 wall for sides and short connect pieces. Actually the 1/16 wall looked thicker than what foretravel used to my eye." Chris Stump Allen.
What I want to add, to ease your mind about the load carrying capacity of your frame is a picture of someone else's coach, a U320 where the frame work is showing through the skin. This is the load carrying frame of your coach. The boxes and bulkheads below are there to keep the frame from twisting.
FYI,
Ospho is a rust converter, not an inhibitor. It converts iron oxide(rust) to hard, inert iron phosphate. A rust inhibitor, or paint, must be applied over it. It may also be Bondo'd over, as it etches and adheres very strongly to the metal surface. Heavy rust should have more than one application.
I use phosphoric acid on corroded aircraft aluminum, alcoa wheels, rusty steel. It may be necessary to constantly brush it on as it's not that strong but I try to wear gloves. https://www.homedepot.com/p/reviews/Klean-Strip-1-Gal-Concrete-Etch-Metal-Prep-Rust-Inhibitor-GKPA30220/100406369/5. Ospho is also contains phosphoric acid and great to prep surfaces for a primer or paint. Amazon.com: Ospho 605 Metal Treatment: Home Improvement (https://www.amazon.com/Ospho-605-Metal-Treatment/dp/B000C02CDG)
This is for light rust. Heavy rust needs mechanical removal.
Good but out of date primers can be found online from Boeing. Deft is one of the companies that produce it.
Muratic Acid has some really nasty vapors and don't recommend it.
Pierce
Check out Acid Magic,same as muratic no fumes you can touch it with bare hands,can get at Ace hardware,about $12 a gallon,
dissolves rust,we use it for the pool salt cell.
we use it for the pool salt cell.
John...how do you use it we have a salt water pool
Thx
Hans
Not John, but when we had a salt water pool one of the maintenance items was to dip the catalytic cell in a jar of muriatic acid to remove any salts that had built up.