Need ideas. Drove 450 miles at 55 to 65 no problem. Turned off main highway to get to campground. Suddenly lost power. Saw small amounts of black smoke from exhaust and couldn't get over 45. Turned onto another road and was at 35 max. Limped into campground. I have gone to Napa and gotten a fuel filter. Will replace in the morning. I'm running out of daylight.
Any suggestions on what else to look for. I am in Clayton, NM so there isn't much here.
Larry
Larry,
You are doing the "first step" replacing both fuel filters.
Look carefully at the old ones to see if they look gnarly.
Betting 90% it's your fuel filters. What you are experiencing is typical fuel starvation. If you don't mind a wrap on the knuckles, have at least two sets of filters. You could have been stranded further away from a parts store and having a dead coach by the side of a busy freeway in a storm.
Don't install and try to fill them by cranking on the engine. Keep the secondary a turn or two loose and then fill both with the hand or electric pump until ALL the bubbles are gone. No pump? Then hand fill both filters before installing. Don't crank engine for more than 20 seconds or so. Wait a couple of minutes and try again.
Check see through on the bottom of the primary (if you have a see through bottom) after starting and every time you stop. You could have picked up algae that will clog the primary again.
Use a large plastic baggie on the filter when removing or bleeding the secondary when installing it. Keeps the mess down.
I have even pressurized the fuel tank with the outlet of a shop vac until all the bubbles were gone on the secondary filter and then tightened it.
Follow the instructions on the box that the filter came in or on the filter itself and don't over tighten it. Don't use ether on a warm engine.
Keep us updated.
Pierce
Thanks Brett and Pierce. I didn't get a secondary filter but called before they closed and can pick up in the morning.
The fuel in the clear bottom appears clear and green. When I remove it I will look for contamination.
Thanks for the reminder and suggestions.
Larry
Did you get any warning lights or alarms? Or was it just a slow down in speed?
If you change the filters and still get a slowing down issue it could be crap in your supply line caused by crud coming in from your fuel tank.
(don't ask me how I know 'cause I do know)
No warning. Slowed from hi way speed, made a left turn and no power. I will check fuel lines and ecm cables while down there.
Larry
Nitehawk, that is one of my worries that I got some bad fuel that ruined the tank. Still got 2/3 of tank.
Larry
It's not possible to ruin the tank. It may be just clogged over a period of time. Probably not much water in the tank or you would see it in the bottom of the primary filter. Good to purchase some biocide additive and keep using it for a while. It won't get rid of the algae but will kill it so it won't reproduce. Once the tank gets low, you can take a mirror and LED flashlight and take a look in the bottom of the tank. But only if your filler neck will allow you to see the tank bottom. Sometimes algae sticks to the side of the tank but mostly will be on the bottom.
Drive a diesel long enough and you will get algae or dirty fuel and clog a filter. No big deal. That's what the filters are for.
It still could be a lift pump or clogged line but a clogged filter is the usual suspect. We will see after you bleed the system and start it.
Change generator fuel filter also.
Pierce
First place to look it the pre-screen filter. You cannot see it on this setup without taking it all apart but it should trap tank sludge before it gets to the next filter. I do not know if this one is cleanable, hope so.
Diagnostics/history on your VMSpc too.
How green is the fuel,that may be the problem,would do like the above and carry 2 or 3 sets after you fix this problem.
I'm not a believer of the "bad fuel" theroy,it's possible but everyone else would be broke down too,why just you?
After thinking about it last night l am wondering if I could have possibly shook up gunk from the very rough road that I traveled on. I have about 2500 miles on this filter. As per talking with Roger, the first thing that I will do is pull the prefilled and check it. Letting the temp to come up to 45 degrees after breakfast to start checking it out.
Thanks for the suggestions.
Larry
Lots of diesel is green in color. Algae is black. All it takes is a little water in your tank plus a little algae from a fuel station. Everyone else does not get it because they are constantly using their trucks unlike most RVs with an off season and low mileage per year. An RV with a little algae in the tank will only grow more as time passes.
Cheap fuel in the U.S. means cheap roads and no fuel inspection. In this case, you get what you pay for.
To inspect an old filter, take a hacksaw and cut it so you can separate the top and bottom.
Low micron filters like the later diesels use will clog much faster than older coaches. I had to install extra Racor 2 micron filters on all the diesels I imported as the fuel here was terrible. The 2 micron filters would clog fairly fast and customers had to carry several cartridges in the glove compartment. I finally went to a
Master Filter (brand name) as it was a larger square glass bowl with a lot more surface area and fit in the engine compartment easily.
Pierce
I just got off the phone with technical assistance at Parker Racor. If you refer to reply number 9 from Rogers post that is the old style of 790r which has a pre-filter. Apparently I have a newer version which does not have the pre-filter the fuel is pumped directly into the 30 micron filter first then through the pump then on to the 10 micron filter on the engine. The way to tell the difference is with the new filter system there is a round cap with bolts on the very top of the assembly right behind the electric priming pump. The technical assistant said do not remove that priming pump since there is no filter there. Hopefully this will save someone in the future if they have the similar issue.
Larry
Don't overlook the fuel shut off solenoid. There is a spring in there that if it breaks or hangs up the fuel rack will not fully open and provides the same symptoms.
If you want to avoid the debris left over from opening up a filter with a hacksaw, a Google search for "Filter cutter for inspection" will give you a more suitable tool. Every oil filter change on an aircraft, if you're careful, you inspect the oil filter for metal contamination.
FIT-1-G : Oil Filter Inspection Tool : GOODSON | Goodson Tools & Supplies (https://goodson.com/products/fit-1-g-oil-filter-inspection-tool)
Filter cutter for inspection
Changed the filters and got the engine running. Drove around the campgrounds up to 20 mph, seemed okay. Got on the hi way and still short on power. Turned around after 1/2 mile and came bacwe are wto campground. The wife was following and said that there was steady black smoke. The vmspc didn't show any turbo boost. Can't say if the vms wasn't reading or no turbo. The VMS has been acting up the last 2 days and Roger is helping with this.
When engine has cooled I will check the turbo and the vacuum line to it.
Any other suggestions appreciated.
Thanks
Larry
Check all the turbo boot connections. Look good at the boots for one torn. If you are losing boost pressure you will have low power. CAC could be culprit also. " charge air cooler "
What to look for on the Cac?
On the CAC, look for any cracks particularly around inlet/outlet.
But, hoses/boots a more likely suspect.
If it is hose/boot, is there a temporary work around if new not available.
Larry,
Depends on what you find.
I have had the clamps break allowing a pretty massive loss of boost.
If a hose is split, not much option, as you are talking about some substantial PSI.
Thanks. Checking now but so far they look good. How can I check the turbo to see if it is free?
Duct tape .
You can check the turbo on the"cold" side, where air comes in by removing rubber boot and checking to see if the veins have damage or the veins free spool. I attached a cut out photo. But black smoke can also be a sign off too much fuel not enough air in the mixture. Perhaps a bad injector or pump depending on engine year/model. It does sound like a lack of air somewhere, either injector or escaping from air cooler or not creating enough boost.
Best bet might be to have mobile mechanic come out.
Because it happened right away and not gradually "Drove 450 miles at 55 to 65 no problem. Turned off main highway to get to campground. Suddenly lost power. Saw small amounts of black smoke from exhaust and couldn't get over 45."
It sure does seem like a hose came lose somewhere. Check all the air intake hoses, some of them even run under the engine to the air tank inlet on the compressor.
PB
On the ISX600 it always is showing boost, from idle all the way up the load curve. At idle is may only be showing 2-4 lbs of boost but boost none the less.
I do not know if the 400ISL is the same or not. Others that may have that engine may know. If motor is always making boost, with engine idling you might be able to go around and hear or feel an air leak.
I would think to have no boost and blowing out black smoke it should be a really good leak and easy to fine.
Does that engine have a computer controlled waste gate, that may be stuck open?
Are you showing any error messages? I would think with what you are saying it should have thrown a lot of error codes.
My 2007 400ISL registers 0.3 lbs at idle. Basically no boost. So you might need a little throttle and a spray bottle of water to mist the hoses and see if there is a leak.
Mobile mechanic on the way. Phone diagnosis leaning towards turbo the turbo.
Boost sensor?
Roland
Larry I sent you a pm
I had similar situation happen to me while traveling an Interstate between Phoenix and Tucson last fall. First saw black smoke, then lost a lot of power. Temp gauges were reading just fine. I was on an uphill slope and just didn't have the power to keep pulling. Cat dealer in Tucson found a split boot. Replaced that and all was well
Wish I were so lucky. Turbo blown. Waiting for the bad news. Been a rough trip.
Larry
John, I haven't seen anything.
I don't claim to be a "turbo mechanic" but it sure seems strange to me that a turbo would "blow" when slowing down to turn into a campground. I understand that all was "ok" before, no issues with loss of power or black smoke? If you were climbing a long grade or pulling hard with high EGT's that would make more sense. Loss of an air filter or some object drawn in the turbo inlet possibly but that would be easy to determine by removing the inlet hose.
Let us know what the tech says before spending lots of $$$$$$.
Hope it's not the turbo..........
Turbo replacement could run you three coach bucks for a factory rebuilt. We replace our turbos on our fleet trucks every 60M as preemptive. Also keeping a very clean intake filter can extend life.
So just where is the prescreen filter ? I will go out and look at mine tomorrow. If I pull it out, will it let air in the system that has to be purged somehow??
Glenn, see What did you do to your coach today VIII (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=36854.msg366224#msg366224)
This is the upgraded filter system from the OEM equipment. There are other options.
I was there when the mechanics pulled the boot off. I will try to get pictures when the turbo gets removed. Of the blades or chipped up and a little bit of foam debris was found in the turbo. The only thing we can ascertain is the foam must have come off of a previous air filter and was stuck someplace until it got sucked in. The filter I have is new as of June and is 100% intact so something was in the pipeline prior to changing this filter. The vanes were not only chipped but the shaft has bent also. The bearing is fully intact very solid spins easy. I have reason to question if the damage did not occur in my previous trip to Houston when water was sucked into the intake and blew out the engine. With cold water hitting a hot Turbo it could cause metal fatigue in the veins the initial breaking of the vein and throwing the turbine out of balance continuing the further damage. That is a speculation on my part but I've worked around enough heavy machinery to see stranger things than this. Waiting for the call back from the shop on pricing and when they can get us back and running.
Foam as in the black gasket on the filter? The filters themselves are paper.
Sorry to hear of all your troubles. How did enough water get " sucked into intake of the motor" that's a lot to water! Sounds to me like poor/improper installation of the air filter.
Bruce,
I believe Roger lost an engine due to rain getting into the intake and there is a mod to prevent this from happening.
It appears to be the same type of phone as on the back of the filter. Presumably the one that I removed. I did not notice any foam pieces missing on it when I threw it away but I did examine the phone as closely as I did the cartridge assembly itself which was fine. That's why I think the phone may have been Lodge some place up in the intake pipe line and then when I drove down Highway 56 which is an exceedingly rough road it broke loose. The water got sucked in driving down Interstate 44 and virtually a flood from the heavens. It was raining 2 to 3 inches per hour very difficult to see and sucked water in. The mod for the rain deflector has not been installed. Again it is speculation on my part that the rain may have caused the damage to the turbo.
Larry
Larry,
But, that turbo damage would NOT explain the sudden, significant power loss. It either would have occurred when the damage was done or gradually over time, but not suddenly just now.
Don't understand the part about the shaft being bent,if the shaft is bent there is no way the turbo will spin,I would take every part
of your intake system apart and make sure it's clean,are you sure you have the correct filter?
That was my thinking too until a trip in East Texas last year. We went through a torrential Texas downpour. When I was plugging in at the MOT parking I noted water coming out of my air filter housing. I pulled the end and it just poured out. The filter was completely soaked. I had installed that filter and I installed it correctly. I had bought the HWDMD (Haygarth Water Diversion Modification Device) for a different coach a year or two before but never installed it. I now have it on this coach.
jor
I was just wondering on the water thing. I'm with BRETT , still doesn't explain why the sudden loss of power. I would still be leaning toward a boost sensor. I also don't know about a bent turbo shaft. Also as others have said something on the pressure side of the turbo. The fact you don't see any boost pressure on the VMSpe tells me the engine processor is not seeing it either. Even damaged if the turbo still spins it would make some boost pressure. Just check closely turbos are pretty durable, and they be pricey.
Here is the the link to the rain deflector modification if interested.
John M.
Rear Air Deflector (http://beamalarm.com/Documents/rear_air_deflector.html)
Yup, a bad signal from the boost sensor would be a lot more likely to cause a SUDDEN loss of power than a gradual wearing of the turbo.
Yes, if turbo is worn, yes, it needs to be replaced as well.
Best advice if replacing the turbo doesn't fix it-- have the engine ECU read for codes. MUCH better than guessing with your wallet.
If the turbo lost a piece or bent the shaft ,the balance goes way off and it gets very noisy /whiney.
Check sensors before replacing the turbo. If you must, check prices on ebay. I've installed a lot of turbos on MBZ and 7.3 IH/Ford and have 450,000 on original turbo on our 300SD and have not experienced any failures. If you fast idle for ten minutes after pulling hard, you won't get heat soak that produces coke in the turbo and causes it to fail. Newer big rigs have software to prevent high oil temperature shutdown. Synthetic oil won't coke.
Read the whole article: The Top Reasons For Turbo Failures | CarBibles (https://www.carbibles.com/turbo-failure/)
Pierce
We purchased a 27 foot Nor'sea sailboat in Anacortes, Wa 16 years ago or so and proceeded to drive it to Bradenton Florida. Pulling with a turbo diesel Ford Excursion. Pretty new.
On I5 in Grants Pass, Oregon, lost power on the highway with lots of smoke out the back. Finally was able to get a cell signal, and get a tow in to Grants Pass, which was just a few miles up the highway, I thought we were further back. No gps on phones then.
After a short while, and treated very well at the local Ford dealership, we were on our way. Turbo boost hose was bad and had to be changed out. Had to wait for the part.
So yeah similar symptoms to your problem.
Don't get me started on the algae in the fuel issue we had with a tayana 37 in Houston.......
Hope you get it sorted.
Dang, we got a lot of "Blow Boaters" here.
Dianne and I have had any, many over the decades, but most miles were in a Pacific Seacraft Crealock 37'
Sorry for the delay today, decided to turn lemons into lemonade. Took the toad up to Angel Fire for a road trip out of the coach. When I rotated the shaft, you could visibly see the wobble of probably 1/8". When the techs got here the first thing they did was a diagnostic tests. No codes were popped and there was no boost reading. Where is the boost sensor and how can it be checked?
Hopefully the new turbo will arrive tomorrow and can be installed. We will continue to Phoenix and change direction for our return trip home.
Larry
My last post showed up several hrs late. Internet is evidently lagging here on the plains :)
Still waiting to hear from mechanics the part are in. Where is the turbo boost sensor and can it be checked somehow?
Larry
Larry,
It should be screwed into the drivers side of the intake manifold almost over the most forward cylinder. For your engine I think the part number that you need is 492-1501 BUT go to Cummins quick serve with your engine number and make sure.
Mike
Thanks Mike, I will see what I can find.
Larry
Wishing you the best Larry!
Mike, I looked and there are 2 sensors in the area, which one is it if you know? I pulled up the part number on Rockauto and it looks similar to the front larger one of the two. What would the other one be?
Thanks,
Larry
Mike, I found my engine manual. The 2nd sensor is the boost temperature sensor.
Thanks for the guidance. Looking for engine plate to positive ID the part number.
Thank goodness for this forum and the great members.
Larry
Larry,
Your ID plate should be on the passengers side of the engine just behind the A/C compressor.
IIRC the sensor your are looking for is the one with 3 wires not the one with just 2 wires.
The one with the 2 wires is for the air in the manifold temp. you just mentioned.
Mike
Mike, found engine plate, all necessary info, couldn't log online called dealer in Amarillo. None in stock,verifying part for my engine will call me back. Good thing that I'm retired and have time but sure would like some different scenery.
Larry