Heading to Nag and MOT for a list of repairs and updates, my DW mentioned that the bedroom pocket door was vibrating (this would be a new feature!)
After three and a half days at MOT they were getting to the end of the list, they had done their 40 point inspection to which I said make it 80 or 100 points, if it needs fixing it needs fixing. Yes they found more stuff like pitted plungers on the brake calipers (low mileage is not all it's cracked up to be).
I asked the service manager if I could have (as in pay for) 15 minutes with Keith Risch to do a quick walk around and explain a few things to me.
As we were looking at the primary fuel filter he turns his back and walks off (strange) returning with a 25" angled tip pry bar which he proceeds to insert between the chassis member and the transmission damper ( looks like a flywheel at the rear of the engine) the "flywheel" moves 3/16" with no real pressure and Keith says "hate to tell you, but you got a problem, possibly expensive"
There should be no play, he says to check this regularly especially in the 96/97 thru 2000 coaches.
Asked if I could drive back to Ohio and he said you won't make it!
Called Stewart and Stephenson in Longview who are very familiar with this Foretravel issue, they have worked on a lot of this age group coaches and they said if caught early and with minimal movement when tested possible it may be tightened for $1000 or if it requires a new outpost bearing about $4500.
The repair is less than a day if they have parts in stock. Should be fixed by the end of the week. Surprised I had not heard of this Issue on the forum , found some old posts.
Keith said once it manifests itself it deteriorates quickly.
Picture is the pry bar he used
Have seen posts on this issue where transmission replacement was necessary.
I say that was money well spent.
Shared album - mark hubbard - Google Photos (https://photos.app.goo.gl/nPDsBkj3R6gcfVwV7)
(Do a search "1999 U270 " for my issues)
Make sure your transmission temperature gauge is working. The sender is located as you look thru drivers side hatch, straight ahead. On the elbow coming from transmission. It is a vdo sender. Very easy for tech to break it off. They did to mine.
Your Rv will be on the fancy lifts. Best to be there. Because then you can take pictures of underside of your coach. Check steering for leaks, back of generator, damage to any underbody. I took expensive pictures as I walked 360.
Transmission fluid will be in small jugs. Watch how many you are charged for/used.
Good time to check air system for any issues in the dark places you normally will not see.
Tires, brakes. On and on.
Hotel rates can be gotten for very low cost. I stayed behind Panera resturant with Lowes on other side. Easy drive from Ss.
I went with Allison factory rebuild transmission. 2 yr warranty. Can extend. Also had airbags changed, generator checked, Vr replaced. Any questions. You have my gm in pm.
Mark
Mark
Thanks, I will call them on Monday and talk with them. Unfortunately we had to leave the coach in Texas and flew back home to be back at work on Monday.
I always prefer to be there and see what is been done.
Thanks
David
I have to agree with you a low mileage coach is not a great thing.
Could someone explain the function of the "damper?" Also, answer the following questions...
1. Is it part of the transmission and thus serviced by Allison trained techs or part of the engine?
2. When they fail, what goes wrong? It just looks like a flywheel of some sort.
3. How often do they fail?
4. How does one check the damper for problems?
Thanks in advance,
George
reply #10
U295 Driveline vibration issues (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=16848.msg109779#msg109779)
My recently learnt information is that it is considered part of the transmission and serviced by Allison.
It is there as a balancer to stop vibration
It has been an ongoing fail point in 96/97 thru approx 2000 U series Foretravels according to the repair facility in Longmont Texas.
Once movement is detected there is only a short window before it starts to deteriorate seriously.
Will usually vibrate the rear of the coach unbeknownst to the driver
They say often less than a 1000 miles before it strands you on the side of the rd from when movement is found.
I am sure there are others with more knowledge than me.
Checked my damper play,it has play,looks like near 3/16",will try and find a shop around Memphis tomorrow,any ideas for shops
in the Memphis area.
My memory says that the 5:13 rear end gears may contribute to this issue as was reported here.
Regearing to 4:68 after the trans fix seems to have helped others here in the past.
I think FOT changed the ratio in later years
Does this apply to the U320 models, or is this a U270 & U295 model only issue?
Not 100% positive, but believe it is a 3060 issue, not 4060
M.O.T. reported a similar issue of vibration about a year ago, they test drove my 1999 U270 and reported a vibration issue, suggesting possible harmonic balancer bad.. They referred me but the Cummings shop which was booked for another 3 days. So they told me to keep the speed down around 55 MPH on the way back to Hot Springs AR. I went to the Cummings Dealer in Little Rock (near my home) and they told me it was a Allison transmission problem. I was referred to a Allison shop same day. They wanted to take the retarder and trans out to check the harmonic balancer. I told them to try to do a temp fix since I had to go on a trip. ( It was about 100 deg also.) The mechanic said he tightened a nut for the harmonic balancer or trans / retarder, also changed the transmission oil. If there was no further vibration on the way home I should consider it fixed. Cheap fix! You may save money if they don't pull the trans! I drove to Albuquerque and back to Arkansas for the balloon fest and all went well.
If my memory serves me right (sometimes I don't trust it), it was a 36' issue (read short drive shaft angle). I did install a few of those balancers as a tech on those early gen coach's. I remember a few going to Allison also. Don't remember why. This was in the early 1990's
Our 36' coach has a slight (hardly noticeable) harmonic vibration at 64-70 MPH. I never drive it that fast anyway towing. 62-63 is the sweet spot for mileage. Doesn't bother me. Have driven it 70+ not towing, but never for very long periods.Not enjoyable for me. Mileage gets ugly fast!
I might add, correct ride height is very important on 36' coaches
I would venture to guess, if you drive them ( a 36') in that MPH range, it may cause some of this havoc. Just sayin, just my opinion. Our coach has 119K miles on it, with no play.
Chris
Perhaps some one in the NAC area who would like to get theirs checked at MOT can get an inspection by Keith Risch and ask him permission to take a video of it to post on YouTube for the education of all of those who may have coaches affected by this potentially expensive issue. Even better, have him point out where it might help to tighten a fastener if there is play. Probably, most of us can figure it out on our own, but it could be very intimidating for a novice coach owner.
Don
As of now my gameplan is to call Longview shop in the morning and see if he can reccomend one of the Allison shops here over the other and go from there.
Hey Folk!
When I first posted as I was driving my new to me Rv had this same issue.
1. Vibration in butt as I passed thru and increased speed from 63 - upward.
2. Aubrey and Keith both lay on creepers, with pry bars to show me the dampener movement with them prying between dampener and transmission. There was very visible movement. Also I observed a light leak at front of transmission.
3. Then began my saga of living at Mot and Fot to be able to get service at SS in Longview. (James is SM).
4. Short version. Found bellhousing cracked, replaced transmission with factory rebuild, transmission temperature sensor was broken off, not told. (Thats why I have posted part number VDO 323-050).
"I was told by Mot staff that this was a common issue with late 90 RV".
Drove home to Uvalde finally July 13 after June 7 purchase. Having spent excessive CB. Between Mot, Fot, SS.
See photos on my first post this thread.
Ouch Texhub sorry to hear that. Expensive.
I would like a picture of where you would use the pry bar to check for the movement. Anyone have that?
Thanks
Place the pry bar between the flywheel/ balancer and chassis member below it
You can see also if there is wear on either side from it walking around.. I am sure that is how Keith saw it.
Chris
Don't have any crossmembers near the back of my trans. I did check end play and up and down playing using a block of wood and pry bar all is good no noticeable play. I would of think with a 1/4 3/16 play the rear seal on the trans would be showing some signs of leakage
I would say "pry bar" between trans case and balancer
That would give you end play,I put the pry bar between the bottom of the damper and the 1 inch elbow coming out of the bottom
of the trans,it's about an inch away and without too much pressure got at least 1/8th inch up and down movement.
This might be a completely different issue but the symptoms sound a lot like the well documented P3 Carrier Bearing issue that late 90's FT's had. It was a design issue with a recall that expired a long time ago. Ours had to be fixed more than 10 years ago, outside of the recall period. You might read through some of the threads on that issue. Here's just one of many examples:
Replaced P-3 Carrier and Bearings (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=28863.msg242137#msg242137)
What is the length of your coach? So far the problem seems to be with 36' coaches.
Craneman, that is exactly what Stewart & Stephens the Allison dealer said : P3 Carrier Bearing
YES ours is a 36" foot.
40 for my 1999 U270. 82,000 miles indicated. I have no records. Wish I could figure out prior owner (S).
Am I reading this correctly?-- is this a problem with 270 and 295 and NOT a problem with 320??
Clarification PLEASE!!!
Thanks
Chris
I think it was any coach of that era with the Allison MD3060R transmission, regardless of trim level.
Chris,
All 320s of that era have the 4060R which didn't have the balancer.
Mike
I got out my logbook today at the RV garage. This is what it costed on a hot day 6/12/18 Little Rock AR. American Shifty Corp. $416.65. Replaced seal new trans fluid, tightened nut . Harmonic balancer good. Still running good.
Give us updates on your situation.
That's what I am hoping for, with luck it will not require the BIG repair since the vibration only started on the way down from Ohio on our "pilgrimage" to Nag/ MOT/Foretravel/Infinity/Xtreme
- The economy there is evidently booming according to my check book and credit cards!
Looking back at the records for our coach, the previous owner noted vibration that cleared up above 60 mph. The "P3 bearing" was subsequently serviced by W.W. Williams in Brunswick, OH (~80,000 miles). The shop notes show the following was done.
"Checked driveline found output flange very loose. Disconnect driveline and remove output flange. Trans Dampner rear seal. Found spanner nut retainer broke and spanner nut backed off. Installed output bearing. Spanner nut and lock. Torque to spec. Install output flange, seal, dampner and driveline."
George
Update on repair,have appointment at G and W diesel on Nov. 6th,will post results.
Dave, did they give any idea if they'd have to drop the trans if a new bearing is required? From what I can tell it looks like there's a planetary around that bearing, is that right? Hopefully they can just tighten yours up, don't spare the Locktite! ;D ;D
The service manager at Longview told me worst case is to replace bearing and carrier at $4K.Think we caught mine early because
of no extra vibration,just up and down play.
Checked mine today and it is fine as no movement in any direction, and I used abigger prybar to really put some leverage on it.
Now I most probably have jinxed myself and on way south in 3 weeks it will fail.
JohnH
All this discussion created enough anxiety had the coach held over at the shop an extra day. No signs of any movement, abnormal wear or vibrations!p. Hoorah! Add in to the regular monitoring list as we go forward.
How do you check these for movement? Thanks.
jor
Copied this from first post:
with a 25" angled tip pry bar which he proceeds to insert between the chassis member and the transmission damper ( looks like a flywheel at the rear of the engine) the "flywheel" moves 3/16" with no real pressure and Keith says "hate to tell you, but you got a problem, possibly expensive"
There should be no play, he says to check this regularly especially in the 96/97 thru 2000 coaches.
Rear of engine or rear of transmission where it attaches to the Yoke for the drive shaft/U joints?
It is on the transmission tail shaft.
Mike
Maybe someone could post a photo of the dampener............. As Gary B. said in an old Yahoo post that the dampener was placed only on the "Unicoach" of 95 and later and not on any of the GV's as his 95 U280 did not have one installed.
Does anyone know of a GV with a dampener? Ours does not have one either................unless it was removed by a PO
I worked for Foretravel as a tech during this time and don't remember any dampener on the Grand Villa but we did install them on the u270 and u295 coaches.
It looks similar to the damper on the 8.3 engine only bigger,is at the end of the trans between the trans and driveshaft,someone
will post a picture but if you look there you'll know if you have one or not.
I recall from a discussion of this issue some years back that there was a spec stated for allowable free play. (I think this was from S&S.) As I recall it was small, noticeable by eye but not zero. At that time I crawled under, did the check and noted a very small amount of play. Have periodically checked it over the subsequent 70K miles and nothing of concern. Anyone else remember this?
Of course now I'm afflicted with "automatic rough", and every sound, road texture change is noted. Guess I'll crawl under it tomorrow and see what's what.
Here you go
We would unbolt the drive shaft, bolt it in between yoke and the drive shaft . Was a pain, took two people. Was really heavy and awkward.
Chris
Heard that damper is oil filled, not solid steel like it looks.
And, I have to believe that running much out of correct RIDE HEIGHT would materially increase stress/wear.
Anyone have a conciliation on that?
I'm sure that the ride height primary parameter is drive shaft angle. Maybe FT had a miscalculation of engine- drive shaft angle and found a driveshaft speed variance that produced a vibe .
Once the trans locks up in the taller gears , the crank speed variance is absorbed by the driveline and tires . Any flywheel mounted , must be held firmly with enough fasteners to resist the speed variance or it will come loose and wallow out any mounting areas.
I see a rear mounted flywheel as a bandaid at best. Maybe the later buses changed the engine angle enough to get the drive shaft dynamics right .
Look under the same year buses that dont have the wheel and compare them to those that do.
Properly designed rear axle to transmission installation should allow different operational heights without incurring any undue transmission or U joint wear. Using a conventional driveshaft, three degrees is considered maximum for normal operatons. Normally, -1 degree is designed in to insure the U joints move and are lubricated. Our coaches may be raised to the top of the airbags and moved for short distances without incurring any damage.
For off road or other installations where the angles are greater, double Cardan or C.V. (constant velocity) joints are frequently Incorporated. .
Good link for understanding the relationship between transmission and rear end pinion angle: Drive Shaft Harmonics (https://www.hotrodhotline.com/md/html/drive_shaft_harmonics.php)
Pierce
Remembering some folks had engine mounts adjusted by FT to correct an alignment problem. This would most likely be necessary if centerlines of trans and rear end aren't parallel=vibration. Makes me wonder....
Crawled under the coach this morning, prybar in hand. Pried on the harmonic balancer, movement is max of 1/32". No change over 70 k miles driven, no weeps or seeps of oil. 36' coach. Total mileage now 155K, most of it towing 5K lb toy trailer. Officially off the worry list at this point. No indication in records that any repairs were ever made on driveline prior to my ownership.
Dodged the $4.5 CB bullet yesterday, Stewart and Stephens in Longview finished repairing the transmission damper vibration repair. The P3 carrier bearing had not been damaged, the bolts which I assume "hold the bearing in place" did need tightening and new seals were required, total cost $1,140. A whole lot better than it could have been.
With the air ride suspension you will not feel the vibration from the drivers seat, if your DW says there is a vibration in the bathroom doors when driving remember to check the transmission damper for more than fractional play.
So happy Keith Risch found it before it turned into a bigger issue, the pilgrimage to NAG was worth it just for that! It's what makes the forum so fantastic, The info on where to go for repairs!
Irish! Congratulations on your self made good luck!
Update on trans repair,took to shop Monday picked up Tuesday.They found the nut holding the bearing loose,inspected race,all
ok,installed new seal and put back together.Total charge was $900.00.The shop is G and W diesel service,in Memphis,they
are a Allison repair shop AND a Cummins repair shop,the shop foreman Eugene is very familiar with the retarder transmissions as
they do many fire engines,been to alot of shops and this one is spotless.
G and W Diesel Service (Memphis TN.) 901-948-1625
Special thanks to Irish for posting the thread.
Just a thought here, If one has this problem, could the retarder be removed and a longer drive shaft connected to the transmission? I do not know if I have this problem as I have never checked, but I do not have any leaks at the transmission, and have not felt any abnormal vibrations. I have looked at a few other 40' coaches with larger engines than mine and the drive shafts are much shorter than my 36' with the 8.3 Cummins and 3060R transmission. To me it seems that a shorter drive shaft would be more likely to be associated with a damper and bearing problem. I always thought that the retarder was just a bolt on to the transmission extra piece of equipment, but maybe there is a difference between the main transmission cases with or without a retarder. I once had a phone conversation with an Allison tech rep and he said that the retarder does cause a slight loss in mpg as compared to the same transmission without a retarder.
I had no leaks and no vibration but the nut holding the bearing was loose,it's easy to check Jerry.The damper should have no play.
I will check it as soon as the weather improves.
Jerry we have the same coach as you, there was only a slight vibration of n the bedroom door. From the drivers seat with the air bag suspension you will not know that there is a vibration. Just happened the DW walked back to get something from the bedroom while we were driving.
Might be worth checking the driveshaft using a pry. bar
UPDATE:
Was concerned about the slight play in our trans dampener on our 1997 U295 36' 3060 trans. After reading this blog, I was only slightly concerned with the play I felt (maybe 3/16th's" or less)
Talked to S&S service manager in Longview. Super nice guy, and very helpful. Explained what may be going on with it. I could have done the job myself, but it requires special tools. He steered me to RWC in Spokane Washington. They are the only Alison facility that has the tools do this work. Service centers do not. Only reprograms and oil changes.
I took it RWC, which is also an International dealer. After inspection they didn't feel it had that much play (1/16th"), but was willing to do the job.They removed the drive shaft, dampener, and yoke, to find the locking tangs and nut tight per Allison spec's. They replaced the rear seal while in there. Our trans just had the transynd oil changed/conversion for the second time 1000 miles ago, so they buttoned it up.
I hate taking stuff into shops, but this was a good experience. Whole thing with tax (Washington state has 8.5 % tax on labor). $610.00 out the door. Well worth the money for the peace of mind, as we are leaving in February on a 3500 mile trip.
With that said, unless your feeling heavy vibration, or your drive dampener is flopping around, with heavily leaking, I wouldn't be that concerned. In my opinion, a certain amount of this is normal wear. But always better to be safe then sorry.
Cheers
Are they the only Alison shop in the area that can do the work?
Our coach is on the safety stands for the next week or two or three. Any thoughts about the validity of the prybar test while the coach is raised to the max?
Don
I asked Western States Cat 1st. They said they could do it, but didn't have the special tool to tighten P3 bearing. S&S said there is a special tool.
From my understanding per S&S in Longview Tx. yes, RWC would be the only dealer in my area. The other 2 shops are frieghtlinner, and Cummins NW, but S&S said they are only Alison dealers, can only do oil changes and reprograms.
When FT was here, I thought there was a Alison shop.
I asked RWC in advance if they had the tools to do this.
Chris
Don
When I checked mine the 1st time, it was at ride height. I checked it again when the coach was raised up while I was servicing it. It seemed tighter, which would make sense because the drive line is at such a radical angle. I may have been just over thinking it.
One would think, you would still see the up and down movement .
Personally, if the seal is not leaking, I would say everything is OK, because with radical movement, it is going to mess the seal up fast. But that is just my opinion.
Chris
I believe that the three pieces of that style of damper are : outer container donut, a very, very, very viscous oil, and the inner vibration damping donut, the inertia ring.
All I can add is,the bottom of the seal is above the fluid level and mine was not leaking but loose,must have been not far from
getting looser and leaking.
Both S&S and RWC said very little oil comes out. I actually ask if the trans needed to be drained, when I was going to do it myself.
I would imagine that the retarder holds the oil back. But don't know that as fact. Just guessing.
When I pulled my retarder temp sensor last winter, very little came out.
Glad you got yours fixed
Chris
Update:
You can read all above, so I don't know what they did, but I no longer have any harmonic vibration at any speed.
Just finished our 3400 mile trip, was awesome to drive at any speed above 62, all the way to 80 MPH, and didn't feel/ hear the annoying faint harmonic vibration.
All they did was replace the seal, and inspect. So something happened. Maybe the drive shaft got rotated 180, maybe the seal took some play, maybe the yoke is tighter now. Maybe because I greased the heck out of the joints.
Not going to cry over it, I will take it. Best $600.00 I spent on the coach.
Chris