This is one I'm not sure how to search. I'm looking to your experience for guidance. Here's the scenario:
-- Assume a person does the best due diligence they can in buying a given coach...inspections, records of service, etc.
-- Assume little / no experience with RV systems and no skill with electrical trouble-shooting. Good understanding of drive lines and structural.
-- For the purposes of the discussion, this person has a budget of $70K to be divided between purchase and repair over 3 years.
-- One hears to "buy quality, it's best in the end", but as a vehicle ages, it's systems may have low miles, but those systems are still "old". Example: wires, switches, pipes. etc.
What would be the guidance of our knowledgeable group: Spend more on a newer coach and hold back a smaller reserve for repairs or get and older coach and have more reserve of repairs?
My apologies for not discovering a way to search for this. Guidance in the key words to use in the search bar for this would definitely be welcome.
I can only relate our personal experience, from which you may extrapolate as you wish.
We were determined to buy our "Last coach First". No interest in trading 2 or 3 times before we were "happy".
We earmarked $60K to buy, including a $10K emergency repair fund.
We looked at "newer" (1997-1998) coaches, but did not find "The One".
A 1993 U280 popped up on the Forum for sale by well respected long-time members. We went to look at it, liked it, wanted it.
Made a deal for 1/2 our purchase fund and could not be any more pleased with our purchase. Our "old" coach has been totally reliable and never let us down. It purrs down the road like a Cadillac, and is a joy to drive and live in.
Plus, since we never had to use the other half of our purchase fund, we felt comfortable spending it to update the coach as we saw fit. Stuff we wanted to do - not stuff we were forced to do.
Older coaches may have simple "mechanical" engines with fewer troublesome electronic controls. The air suspensions are just as comfortable as newer coaches, and without slides the air systems have fewer potential problem areas. Older coaches are easier to work on, because there is less "stuff" to go wrong, and what does go wrong is easier for the average person to trouble shoot.
The key is to find a coach that has been cared for properly. Look carefully before you leap. Don't buy a pig in a poke.
Thank you. This information is the type of guidance I'm looking for as I attempt to develop a strategy on how to approach such a momentous (to me) purchase. The big step to reach the long-awaited multi-year touring of our continent.
The cash involved is a little mind-bending as I approach retirement. Getting some parameters to think about in this decision process is much appreciated. Don't worry, I don't hold anyone responsible for the resulting purchase strategy (or quality execution thereof) I come up with :) I'm just looking for thoughts to consider.
Additional benefit of getting a FT! Working on it will keep me out of the DW's hair and off her nerves in retirement. Yep, I have too much of a "gotta have something to do" drive for my own good.
One of the most critical points: "for sale by well respected Forum members". To me, this would be a huge benefit to any coach I may consider.
I can relay my situation if that helps.
My dilemma, purchase large HD truck and a 5th wheel/etc. for a family of four or purchase a Coach of some sort. This is where I started my journey. I did not want to daily drive an HD truck, as I commute in stop and go Dallas traffic. I like my Ecodiesal as it's comfortable and gets great fuel mileage.
I could have spend around $75 to 100k on a new truck or bumper pull/5th.. This is how I came to a budget for comparison. I decided that if I could find a coach that met my needs under this cost I would make sense, as we already have a Jeep Wrangler we can tow.
My next decision then was should I find something newer,
but the prices rose quickly. This is when I found a 2000 U320 for 50k. I liked the Cummings ISM engine, but the cost was low as it was stored outside and the fiber shell is a bit rough. I decided to have airbags, tires and front windshield, house batteries, and all oils, lube/etc, aquahot services done. This was around 6k. The engine and generator are running strong, and all other systems work well, other than the usual no tank monitor, minor issues.
My goal is to run the coach for 5 years and hope nothing major pops up. After that it's sell or re-invest....
Our coach is pure white, has a little fiberglass damage around the headlight, but I'm okay with that, and going forward other than oil, fluid, belts I found a place nearby with very reasonable labor prices. I could have perfect paint for 20k more, but that was not important to me.In my mind the major risk components/systems that can cost you are as follows:- Engine $20k: If you have major issue with fuel or something major happens that requires a rebuild, I'm thinking that's 15 to 20k for a rebuild. I'm hoping that Cummings ISM legendary reliability comes through on this one.
- Electrical $3k-6k: Besides batteries, the most likely major issues would be the generator, or the original power inverter/charger. (I already have a replacement picked out if this happens). I uses a good surge suppressor. If it were to fail, this might be where we differ, I would do any electrical myself, as I'm very comfortable....
- Plumbing$??: Aqua hot failure, major pipe burst, leaking, water pump. Most likely any major damage would be from freezing and I live in Texas so not much risk. If that did happen I would chalk that up to my stupid tax.
- ACon $3-$6k: I've seen these go out in newer 5th wheel's so this is a risk of owning any RV, I consider this a push. Mine are original but super cold and work great.
All of that said I know I have to be prepared for a major expense if I have engine issue, and I'm prepared to do that if needed. I would expect with Oil, transmission, and ad hock repairs you should budget around $4K per year to be safe, not including fuel. (that is the careful number).
$70k for own and operate would be optimistic for a 2000 + model, but that's really all I can speak to.
For me I don't care to work on engines, but electrical and plumbing are fine, meaning I'm going to pay to have fluids changed. That's just me...
As for age, wires don't really age. It's really about millage. I would be more inclined to get an older coach with less usage than a newer one with heavy usage. Tires and Batteries are more affected by age than other components. IMHO.
Thanks. I expect to put in at least $8K before I hit the road (tires, airbags if needed, all filters, many hoses and fittings), so this all makes sense. I hope to have an emergency fund of $20K + on top of initial repairs set aside and waiting.
Thanks for the guidance on which older systems to keep an eye out for.
Whatever you end up with you'll end up spending a bunch of money on it and workin' on it all the time so both you and your wife should be happy. Regarding relying on forum member status and posts I would go with Reagan's Trust but Verify.
jor
I'm with Chuck. The older mechanical coaches are less of an investment, less likely to break down but only if you find one in good shape. That means zero corrosion. You WILL need to get it inspected by an Foretravel owner if you want a better chance for a lower trouble coach. Engines don't cost $20K at the shop to be rebuilt, it's more like $30K plus by the time towing, motels, etc are included.
A $20K investment can easily cost another $30K-$40K if things go south or you might only have to spend on insurance and diesel. No matter how well the coach is inspected, it's still the roll of the dice. Now, take a $40K investment and double the cost for possible repairs.
In my view, the later the coach with all the emission additions, the greater the chance of a problem. Also remember that many shops don't like to work on motorhomes because of the engine/transmission access. A breakdown could involve a longer distance tow to a shop that will do the work.
Unless you have a good DIY ability, RV ownership can be very expensive. Even then, it's not cheap.
Pierce
"RV ownership can be very expensive. Even then (with good DIY skills), it's not cheap". An excellent point. It's a common thread on the other site I'm following (Wanderlodge). I am considering my purchase plus repair budget as fully expended when I buy a coach...in essence, I expect to spend it all in return for a long-waited experience. I hope to get something back when I sell it, plus when it goes it'll be in the best shape I can get it, as it will have been our home for two+ years.
"Trust but Verify" I live with that phrase (I'm in pricing for the oil business). Glad I'm communicating with people who understand and remember that advice. With luck I'll be able to find someone close and experienced to inspect the coach. I recognize that I don't have the knowledge to do that myself.
Keep this great advice coming. Thank you all.
Newer or older is like going to Vagas, you may or may not be lucky, My brand new Suburban three years ago was so bad, I traded it after three months and 2900 miles.
I have had an equal mix of new and older rigs and I have spent money on them all within months of buying.
We bought a 99 U270 last April that was in good mechanical shape, but with 50,000 miles had suffered somewhat from not been driven.
Some folks would have been really happy with it and probably never done anything to it but drive off happy going from campground to campground. But I like my stuff to be in perfect working order and we have now spent $1000 on servicing engine because I don't know what the PO really did, $5000 on mechanicals shocks, airbags etc etc that I think is better spent up front, $4000 on things that really needed repairing because it's an old coach. This does not include things I have replaced because of looks, window seals, upholstery, captains chairs, insulation, replaced all the brass for a more modern look, added lighting, TV,'s etc etc and don't forget fuel line replacement and fuel tank cleaning.
It's now heading in for a headlight conversion and roof paint and stripe replacement.
Before buying we had read in the forum that you needed 20CB in reserve, had it and now don't.
Are we unhappy? no! It is what we thought it would cost us, we love the simplicity of the coach, the accessibility of the infrastructure, the retro looks.
We toured the FT factory and were awed by the features and mammoth size of the new rigs, but were happier stepping into our cozy, simple coach that does not scream you got money (even if you don't)
We think this is a much better coach than the 6 year old one we just sold that had stripes deteriorating, fiberglass delaminating, underpowered, smaller tanks all round. All this Foretravel for less than a new Forest River 24' class C !!
Good luck, the hunt for your new coach is as much fun as owning it.
David
Your on the right track. I see too many people wanting an older gen FT, and asking how to get it financed. IMHO they are in trouble already, because they are already in over their head with the purchase.
You are carefully planning it all out, and counting the cost. Only thing I would say is, you probably won't see a profit from what you may think of as an investment. RV's are not an investment. Only unto yourself. To quote Bob, "you have to drive the value out of them"
Everyone here is probably sick of my quote:
"You have an RV, so you have a problem, you just don't know what it is yet"
Cheers
Chris
I was in your shoes 4 1/2 years ago. I owned and drove big rigs for ten years, So knew a bit about the engines. The engines are usually the least of a new buyers troubles. The M-11 is a truck engine designed to pull 80,000lbs for well over 500,000 miles. The lack of mileage and extremely light loads help. It's the same with the Allison 4060R transmissions. They are used in city buses and garbage trucks that see the worst type of driving conditions. I.E. Stop and go with an hourly employee that doesn't care at the wheel.
I bought our coach from a not very active forum member in Canada. It did sit for at least two years while he was dying of colon cancer. (RIP Reg) In our case we figured that with the cost of a good diesel pickup and a 5th wheel. We could expect to spend at least 70K. So we opted for that Canadian $48K 36' 1998 U320. And we started down a very frustrating road of repairing a great many minor to medium things (Batteries, Tires, Shift pad, airbags, shocks, Alternator, new house pump, New manablock) and one major one. The aqua hot blew up and we spent $10k on that alone. We had to totally redo the brakes because of stuck slide pins.
We were not expecting that much to happen so quickly and I put myself under a lot of stress and it shows in some of my old posts. Yet with time we grew more knowledgeable and realized that with a travel Trailer or 5th Wheel. We would be throwing good money after bad.
In the end we have just met (actually a bit over at $84K) the expected purchase expenditures if we had gone the 5th wheel, pickup route. So we did make the right decision on buying an older Foretravel. We just didn't realize it at first.
This is what we did to our 99 U270:
We know you are handy and you will grow into it! (chuckles)
VMSPC: Ask Roger for one. Great stuff!
Shower roof plexiglass bad @ Foretravel
Electric refrigerator when propane one went out. (self $600.)
Air leaks repaired as needed in valves. @ M.O.T and Little Rock AR.1K
Engine and Generator insulation replaced @ M.O.T. 2K
Harmonic balancer nut tightened in Little Rock, AR.
Step air leaks repaired @ M.O.T.
Door closer assy replaced @ M.O.T. (removed again looking for a Country coach style door closer.)
r&r all fluorescent bulbs in coach. (Led lights in all fixtures!)
Toilet repairs. (self)
House Batteries AGM (Oreileys) Hot Springs Village 800.00 self
Engine batteries 250.00 self Ohio Oreilys near Noah's ARK
Future upgrades: Pure Sine wave inverter, (1.5K) (Tires, 3K) Air Bags,(2K) Muffler,(1K) Wet Bay mods, (?) 2 new roof airs (1,500 on line)
This is hot rod, Sailboat, right?
Thinking back over the last 2 years, i've spent a lot in repair, upgrade and remodel. With an older coach, you should expect this to varying degrees. If you are able to work on the various systems, you will save a large sum of money. Case in point, if I would have fixed my turbo problem myself instead of using the mobile mechanic, I could have bought a good compressor, air powered tools and parts, not broken a stud from the manifold costing me a new manifold from Cummings, and saved probably around $4k or more. I also wouldn't have sat in Clayton NM for 13 days waiting for the proper parts (yes I know that my frustration is showing, sorry). With the VMSPC which I had just gotten prior to leaving KC, I saw that I had lost turbo boost, (as confirmed by the mobile mechanic for a $100 diagnostic charge). With the advice from this forum, I would know that the turbo boost sensor had evidently broken and I would replace it. I could have had all this delivered within 3 days and been on my way.
All that being said, with all that has been spent, I have gotten a very good coach, with a fantastic ride, true livability and a great deal of it is now brand new. With a couple more items, I will have a nearly new 1996 coach which will take me anywhere I want or need to go. As with some other members, I want my coach to be in the best condition that it can be, preferably by preventative measures, but you never know when some part 20+ years old will fail. It isn't a matter of if, but when it will happen. I do believe that the older parts were built to better quality than the newer ones, so I felt that the break down time would probably be around the same date and time ;D
As always, this is my opinion, you get what you paid for it and your mileage may vary.
Larry
You could take a more jaundiced view and say "Don't use any money you might need." But operating older equipment is more of a different mindset than purchasing new with maybe a warrantee.
When I met Mr. Shackelford some 30 plus years ago, we were each driving "interesting" automobiles as daily transportation. I was in my "summertime" 1950 Chrysler Windsor, and he in his summertime 1964 Plymouth Valiant convertible.
FWIW we finally sold the Windsor in 2013 as we downsized. The current project for a new daily driver and towed is a 1968 Siata Spring, digression ended.
When you purchase someone's older rig, you're buying into deferred maintenance and the little things which the previous owner had learned to live.
There are pros and cons to living with machinery that is pre-computer, all of which involves more operator education and effort than would be required from newer machinery.
If you want the romance of a Detroit 2-stroke diesel, that pretty much demands a vintage rig. But it will run forever with a well trained operator.
Me? I was bewitched by the chassis and suspension. All of the systems are well within my skill set and only took a few weeks to set all of the major systems, heating and refrigeration, right. Everything else is something to do tomorrow.
Right now I have to research repair parts, and properly fix a new found leak under the bathroom sink. Luckily 4 rolls of toilet paper gave their all.
Oh, and finally the horsepower wars. If life is considered as a journey to an end point. Why hurry to get to the end? Or as my late friends used to say, well the first time, "Are you telling me you drove that 1926 Ford 300 miles here?" Yup! And back.
One BIG mistake many learn the hard way: Thinking "NEW" is "BETTER". Buying a new (or almost new) RV does not mean you get a trouble-free ride. Our Forum (and others) are filled with sad tales of new coaches needing many trips back to the dealer/manufacturer to "make things right".
Sure, you might get a "limited" warrantee that covers some of the cost, but what is your time worth?
My "first" father in law (and best friend) was involved with the RV business from the early days and knew the Corson brothers (they owned Coachmen) when they were working out of their garage. He declined to go into business with them, but consulted for years in exchange for being able to buy coaches at cost, if he wanted. Dick preferred to design and build his own coach, one of which the Corsons copied. He did a conversion on a Sprinter chassis before the RV industry started using them. Since the '70s, he owned two new coaches (one was his design that Coachmen built, previously mentioned), and he said the same things about the new coaches. His recommendation was to buy a coach from a reputable manufacturer that was a few years old, since, hopefully, all the issues would have been resolved.
Unfortunately, Dick died a few years ago from vascular dementia, as result of not being careful with Coumadin.
After using the '81 FTX for 18 years with minor issues to me. Decided to get a newer coach with air ride. Didn't know about Fore forums and being on the west coast found a '96 Monaco Signature 40'. Used it for 3 years and was not happy with too many issues to mention. Started looking at ads for Foretravels, still not knowing about this Forum. Found one in South Carolina, after phone negotiations, pictures and videos sent to my computer, took off in the '01 Grand Cherokee with the towbar in the back along with many tools. After arriving and checking the coach found some issues with the Aqua Hot and small items. Renegotiated, paid cash and drove back here to Los Angeles. found the Forum while looking for parts and the rest is history. Very happy to have sold the Monaco and bought this one.
Exceptional input. My hoped-for plan and approach to home-and-vehicle care/maintenance reflects the guidance given here, so that's good to see.
Keep the knowledge coming (or am I being too greedy / demanding?).
Goes to show you may have to go a long ways for your Foretravel. Thought no one was a crazy as we were but we bought ours in Love Valley, North Carolina and drove it back to California. We took a commercial flight to Charlotte and the PO picked us up. Bought three start batteries/belts at Autozone, $100 tools at HF, sheets and towels at WalMart and drove home. It had not been started in over two years. 8D house batteries were bone dry.
If you like the Old West but don't want to drive out here, visit Love Valley, pop you lation is 104. Links: love valley north carolina - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYBGNQUppf5pBIUuXX2dCQhUnXSrzz2Sg%3A1572378877017&ei=_Zi4XZtdyLSzBZSEqpAF&q=love+valley+north+carolina&oq=love+valley+north+carolina&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l8j0i30l2.5079.5670..7463...0.1..0.446.1029.0j2j1j0j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i7i30.VF-e-PHSYRI&ved=0ahUKEwjbz6rjn8LlAhVI2qwKHRSCClIQ4dUDCAs&uact=5)
Pierce
My plans was always a sailboat 36 to 40 ft sail anywhere preferably the Orient. Having had other sailboats that's where I've come from. Then Right before retirement my plans changed and I started looking at RVs. My idea of an RV was always an airstream towing it behind something like a Dodge power wagon or a Ford excursion with a diesel like I used to have. In my search and research I found the foreforums this was a few years before I bought the coach and I read through a lot and I realized that these forums had a wealth of information. I also joined the IRV2 forums and read up on other RVs and coaches. I knew I couldn't afford a new one wouldn't even dream of spending that much money on something that would depreciate from day one. Same goes for boats.
I believe that there's a diminishing depreciation return on these things when you first buy them there's a huge amount of depreciation but as It gets older it slows down and sometimes even reverses. In terms of boats if I was to buy a 40-ft 20-year-old boat now I would probably pay close to what the original cost. That's not the same with these things though. Still for what I paid for my 1999 U320 was similar to what I would have paid for the sail boat that I was looking at. each of those I figured would require anywhere from 20 to $40,000 and upgrades and other work to make it what I would want. So all in any words from 80 to 90 to 100,000. I'm okay with that. Whether or not you are it's up to you and your wife spouse girlfriend or significant other. As others have said you never know what you're going to purchase. no amount of pre-purchase surveying will tell you all the things that you're going to find once you start really digging. When Brett did my pre-purchase survey he did not take the trim work from around the window and the door or would I have expected him to. He didn't find the corrosion there. He briefly look for corrosion on the bulkheads but again you going to have to really look for some of that stuff to see if there's an issue there and you may not be able to do that on a pre purchase survey. You're not going to know if the aqua hot is ready to give up a ghost and needs to be rebuilt for 8K. You're not going to know if the air conditioner is about to die or that you have extensive water damage underneath your tile floor. you may look at the tread on the tires and say they look good by 6 months down the road find out that you have a big bubble on the sidewall and all of them need to be replaced. So it's a crap shoot as others have said it cost money to own one of these things which is why I almost sold mine this year.
Thought about buying a sprinter van and doing a conversion. But the more I looked into it the more I found out that older Mercedes-Benz have their issues and their cost and the newer ones cost a lot of money so it's back up to pretty much where I was with this coach so I might as well just stay with what I have. And for now I'm happy with that. after a few years with this coach maybe I will pass it on to someone new and do something else. The only thing we can tell you for sure is that if you do buy a Foretravel these forms will be here and the knowledge of all the previous posts and the new post from here on in to help guide you in diagnosing fixing repairing replacing upgrading and generally spending your money to do it needs to be done, plus you'll make friends. Good luck.
Use my microphone on my cell phone to write this so any typos sorry about that.
I laugh when I hear someone stating they are going to invest in a motorhome, and I reassure them that it is not an investment it is a lifestyle. We all get to make the choice of how and what we do in retirement. We have been blessed and fortunate to be able to enjoy this lifestyle while hopefully helping others along life's highway. I appreciate all the information on this forum and the members who take the time to participate.
Just My 2c worth
Chris
For every action there is and equal and opposite reaction. I read all the posts on problems that came up after they bought their coach. I figured that there are probably many that don't post because they had very little issues. I have not had any failures unless you count the non skid on the roof, one very small window creep and vacuum generator that I rebuilt. All money spent has been for tires, headlight conversion, step conversion, air bags, fuel lines, solar and other upgrades. Bought for $45k $15k in all the upgrades. I hope I didn't jinx myself, but thought a potential buyer should know all is not bad with an older coach.
Like Chris mention a few posts ago, if it wasn't for this forum and the members who give of their time and expertise, we would be high and dry and lost in limbo! So thankful! Also nice to be able to do some of our own work and save some $$ to boot! Like I explain to those who are contemplating this lifestyle; "an RV is a depreciating asset" !
As has been said, an RV is a "depreciating asset" but if you buy the right older one it HAS been depreciated and has plenty of miles (and years) left.
As others have also said, it is a lifestyle, especially if it becomes your home. The freedom of being able to relocate to -- and be comfortable -- in basically any area/environment is something that is hard to imagine until you do it.
Obviously one's available cash will determine whether buying a new or even older coach makes sense and, as has been pointed out, being able to do your own maintenance and repairs makes a huge difference.
For me, an older coach made sense not only because of price, but because of it's ability to be lived in while off the grid for extended periods of time -- with large water, waste and fuel tanks. Adding enough solar equipment to meet my needs was a great investment.
I think of it as: no rent, no utilities, no property taxes, no association fees, no water bill and no trash bill. If you migrate like many of us snowbirds, you can keep your heating and cooling needs and costs to a minimum.
PLUS, in this day and age there are many benefits of the internet including being able to research and purchase virtually anything from anywhere.
I guess the answer to Older versus Newer will depend on the individual but the posts made by this forum's members is good solid advice and the existence of this forum makes it a great idea to buy an older or newer Foretravel if you are going to buy any motorhome.
Bob,
You probably made a wise decision. Boat ownership on the far side of the planet (or this side) can be more expensive that you can imagine.
Having had a boat built and then sailing a lot of Asia, I can tell you that it's a lot more work and many more things go wrong on a new boat than you can imagine. Some countries like Japan are a pleasure to sail in their waters plus customs and immigration are a pleasure to deal with. Other lands I can think of may have wonderful people but their officials have their hand out big time for everything. Tales of pirates are not just stories as I met a couple of boats hit hard. Fortunately, not by the savage pirates in the Sulu Sea where they board your boat, kill you and sink the boat, all in 15 minutes. Do a Google search for "Sulu Sea." Check the world map for piracy: Live Piracy Map (https://www.icc-ccs.org/piracy-reporting-centre/live-piracy-map) . This does not include fishing boats that get hit every day in places like Manila Bay. Despite all the crazy things that happened, some of my best memories are from blue water cruising. On the other hand, I could have never gotten insurance for the boat so there was always a risk and I was really lucky quite a few times not to have lost the boat.
RVs are a lot like boats where a new RV may need quite a few trips to the dealer before all the glitches have been worked out. Then, the RV should have a reasonable amount of time before systems start failing if a normal amount of maintenance is done. Winter driving can age a coach quickly and the used market for RVs seems to fall off a cliff after a certain age is reached. The cheaper quality coaches seem to last the least as you might expect while the professional bus conversions may keep their value the longest. Our Foretravels can keep a fair value but some design shortcomings (all brands have some type of achilles heel) do require attention to avoid becoming almost impossible to sell.
With an RV, the amount of adventure is only limited by what kind of outdoor life you are looking for. Like a boat, you can't put a price tag on the experience. For those looking for a weekend trip or full timing from plugin campgrounds to the next, good for you. Others may want to use the coach for coming back to "home", tired in the evening after exploring more exotic destinations. All of it sure beats watching Wednesday night wrestling on TV while drinking cheap beer or wine in a carton.
Pierce
David, this is today's experience with our new to us Foretravel.
We suspected that we had the original upholstery, and with use it did indeed explode from sheer age.
I started in on my dinette chair this afternoon, and when I turned it over I found a piece of aged masking tape with my build number and stapled to the seat bottom was a Made by Foretravel label. It's not exactly an F.L. Wright house but it will do for us.