After spending two days at MOT and spending mucho dinero, we thought we were "good to go". We drove three hours to our RV park, plugged in my Progressive Industries EMS and it read 120 each leg. Amy said we were reading 101 and 150 inside on our power line monitor. I moved to another spot...SAME THING!!!! ??????
NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE.
What do I need to do??? Don't want to hurt anything on the coach. PLEASE respond asap !! Thanks
Glenn,
I don't suppose you have a Kill A Watt meter, do you? If you do, you can plug it into any of the 110V outlets in the coach, and read the voltage and hertz. Good way to check on what is really going on.
You can usually find them at most of the home improvement big box stores (Home Depot, Lowes).
Kill A Watt Meter - Electricity Usage Monitor | P3 (http://www.p3international.com/products/p4400.html)
First suspect is a bad NEUTRAL. Without a neutral, voltage on 50 amp service can "float" all over.
Start by checking cord end, where it attaches to the coach/cord reel all the way to the ATS.
Yes, do check CG outlet as well.
Does your EMS show any error codes? If it is working correctly then the problem could be in your power cord or somewhere inside the coach. If 1 leg is really 150 volts, your EMS should have cut power off to the coach. Try a 30 amp plug and see what happens.
If still getting bad readings have the campground maintenance person check the power pedestal.
Best of luck Glenn.................. ;)
Thanks
The "round" prong of the coach's power cord broke off. I did not think it would effect anything....electrical isn't my strong point....
Looks like it sure does. Ordered a new plug. Be here tomorrow. Hope THAT is, indeed, the culprit.
No error code.
We'll see.......
Glen- make sure you connect the wires carefully. This is heavy gauge wires and hard to work with, but you need to have the connections wired to the right pronged and no extra wire filaments sticking out that could cause a short or arc in the plug.
Best of luck.................. ;)
Had same thing happen a while back. My EMS is built in under the bed so wouldn't allow power into the coach. Found the ground plug on cord had become loose and was broken internally. Changed out plug and worked fine.
Sure that will do the trick. How long before you cross the border? I just joined a new Facebook forum, ontheroadinmexico that seems great with over a hundred posts a day. https://www.facebook.com/groups/ontheroadinmexico/
I just received a campground advertisement from a CG owner that read the route I was recommending and posted an ad for his CG so lots of people read this forum.
Have a good drive,
Pierce
Amy knows about that site. We are in the Dallas area for a week or so, and then will drop into Mexico. We were hoping that someone would want to caravan with us...strength in numbers...more fun to share the experience. Just ask Twig.......
Likely you will find more than a problem with the ROUND prong. That is the ground.
The center straight is the neutral.
Doesn't really make any difference, as a missing ground is certainly reason enough to install a new end.
Do you have a cord reel.? If so the problem could be in that.
Do you have a cord reel.? If so the problem could be in that.
[/quote]
How so?? What could be causing the weird voltage display ??
I thought that the round prong was a ground. The Progressive industries reads 120 each leg. The problem is within the coach. I am about to go five months into Mexico. I am just outside of Dallas. Is there someone out there who can talk me through this, after I install a new plug tomorrow? I have no idea why one leg reads 105 and the other 147 to 150. Surely there is a logical reason.
Glenn,
1. Do you have the OEM Power Line Monitor that Foretravel installed? If so it may be the problem it's self.
2. Remove the (4) mounting screws
3. You will find 2 male extension cord ends plugged into a single split duplex receptacle. (the 2 female plugs are reading different legs of your coaches electric system)
4. Unplug the 2 cords and take a voltage reading at both of these female plugs with a quality volt/ohm meter.
5. If they read about 120VAC on each one, then it is the Power line meter has lost its neutral. It is a common and known problem to loose the neutral on one of the printed circuit boards.
6. When the neutral fails on the Powerline you will get the symptoms you describe.
7. To try to help you understand what you see 101V+150V=251, divided by 2= 125.5 which is about right.
8. If this is the problem your coach will run just fine with out the monitor hooked up until you can get it fixed. As a side note Jim Frerichs (a commercial member here) fixes them or did in the past, so you might want to check him out.
Mike
Glenn,
The neutral is being lost somewhere between your Progressive and your main breaker panel. Not that many places for a failure:
Male end of shore power cord
If reel, connection between cord and reel and between reel and house wiring
ATS
Main 120 VAC breaker box
Take it a step at a time.
will do. Of course it is raining hard all day....just to make it more challenging.
Oh, and probably understood, but do NOT plug in until this is resolved. You could "let the smoke out" of a lot of your electrical appliances.
Check when running the generator-- if all OK, that suggests that from the ATS "out" side everything is OK and the problem is before that (including the ATS "in" side from shore power.
Thanks Mike for that info. Might come in handy one day. Since our electrical system is no longer stock, tracing some of these issues becomes a issue.
But if that went down, I think I would replace it with the Blue Sea Systems 1838 monitor. Will monitor both AC channels with alarms, monitors both voltage and current. 2 would monitor both generator and shore. Can also use it to activate a relay, or external alarm.
The other day using a vacuum cleaner, my shore tripped and I didn't know it. No alarm. Would have been nice. Only knew it cause the vac lost some power so I knew something was up.
To add what Mike said.
If your coach is only being feed with 120v then you will not have items have any power at all if you have a bad neutral. Where the problem comes in is when your coach is plugged into the 50A outlet it is getting 240V. You coach only has 120v items in it. Some are on phase A and some are on Phase B. With the neutral missing the phase with less load will have a higher voltage and the phase with greater load on it will have the lower voltage. As was stated items do not like high or low voltage and tend to burn up.
I was having similar problem. My portable EMS was tripping out from low voltage. I saw 105 volts on EMS and 122 volts with meter on bottom plug of EMS. I used my spare EMS and everything seemed find till the EMS tripped again. I finally tore into the pedestal and found that the top of the 50 amp breaker on one side had discolored and wasn't making a good connection. I replaced the breaker 3 days ago and haven't had it trip out any more.
Check the easy stuff first.
Just my two cents
Ron
Update:
While waiting for the plug to arrive, I ran the generator. As stated above, it displayed the normal stuff, i.e. around 120, each leg. That made me think there was nothing wrong with the display meter. After working on the plug for two hours, I finally got it put together (working with that size wires isn't any fun at all ), and plugged it into the EMS. EMS displayed both legs were 120, so I went into the coach with fingers crossed. After a minute of nothing showing, the meter is displaying 123 on each leg. I can relax for a little while.
I didn't realize that not having the ground would effect the system in the way it did. Lesson learned.
Thanks for all the help. I didn't know where I would have taken the coach to, if I was unable to repair this, myself.
Had a loose neutral and if loads were the same the voltage would stay the same. Once you have a imbalance between the two legs the higher loaded leg voltage would go up and the less loaded leg voltage would drop. Spent months looking for the culprit and ended up finding a loose but in contact neutral. Re-torqued the neutral lug and all legs stay very close to the same and now have small voltage drop under load, no longer using the other leg as a neutral. So any time you see a increase above normal voltage it's a neutral. By the way mine was in a three Phase panel and drove me crazy.
NO, the ground should NOT be the "reference" for the two hot legs.
While it can function as a neutral if neutral and ground are bonded, that is NOT the safe way to do it.
You still need to trace the neutral circuit from male end of shore power cord to ATS.
RV Safety | No~Shock~Zone (http://noshockzone.org/category/rv-safety/)
With years working on electrical systems this is a very good read for any owner as previously stated
I was reflecting on this incident and was really glad that it happened while we were still in the States. There aren't any Camping World type stores in Mexico. I'm sure I would have been able to find a standard 50 amp plug in a Home Depot or a hardware store. What I would like to know, with my very limited electrical background, is....
let's say I had to temporary rig up a 30 amp plug and splice it into the 50 amp line. I believe that I would have to "cap off" one of the wires. Which one? The red?
I'm sure we have all used adapters to plug into 30 amp. I may have even had to kick down to a 20 amp, just to keep the batteries charged.
Obviously, you couldn't run two ac's on 30 amp. 20 amp would preclude most anything.
What can be safely run on 30 amp? The refrigerator? Microwave?
How about when on just 20 amp. I KNOW you shouldn't....but I have been in RV parks with minimum electrical supply.
Please remember to answer my question about splicing in a 30 amp plug. I just might need to know what my options are, if this ever occurs again.
Thanks
Glen you could get one of these (https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?name=marinco-locking-pigtail-30-amp-female-to-50-amp-male&path=-1|328|2290035|2290037&id=1032255) which will take you from a 50 amp plug to a 30 amp. Or this one (http://www.nwrvsupply.com/142/55175.html) which is a lot cheaper as its made for a RV. Here is just a 30 amp plug. (https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=8041&familyName=30A+Locking+Male+Plug+and+Cover) Look around you can find it cheaper I bet on RV stuff, but for my money, I go with marine grade. Better built. You get what you pay for.
30 amps. one ac, battery charger, fridge, no problem. If you want to run coffee pot, or microwave or any other big draw unit, would turn ac off while it is running.
50 Amp To 30 Amp Adapter | etrailer.com (https://www.etrailer.com/search/50+Amp+To+30+Amp+Adapter)
You're missing my question. I know there are adaptors. Bob, the 30 amp you show doesn't have the correct prongs. What I am asking is, IF I had to "rig" the 50 amp line, cut off the plug, and see 4 wires, red, black white and green, and then take my 30 amp pigtail and cut off the female end, which wire would not be used? This is not an ideal fix. It would be undertaken in desperation.
Either the red or black, doesn't make a difference.
You need to give us a situation where you could not use the adapter. If you just had to wire a 30 amp plug to 50 amp cable, you could take either black and white or red and white, and of course green for ground. This would give you the same 120 volts that a 30 amp would normally supply.
Using a 50 to 30 Amp RV Power Adapter - RV Basics .com (https://www.rvbasics.com/techtips/50-to-30-amp-adapter.html)
You will have to scroll down to see it.
Glenn
If you "cap off" either the black or red wire you will only have power to certain appliances and receptacles in your coach. Capping off may not allow the appliances u need to be working to work. Everything in divided up on each hot wire {red/black} based on the load of each appliance depending on the amp draw of each one and split between the black and red wires. The 30 amp to 50 amp pigtails combine the red/black wires together on the single hot wire on the 30 amp so everything will work in the coach. You, as the owner must make the choice of what will be turned on without overloading the wire and breakers. Just as a side note, breakers are only rated for 80% of the stated load for continuous load.
I hope this helps
Ron
We have been in several RV parks with only 30 amp service. We were able to run 1 air, coffee pot, microwave and most any of our lights, which are LED. We also had the electric side of the water heater on, however, it did trip the 30 amp pedestal breaker, so shut the electric side down and ran the Aqua Hot instead. No other issues and we were there for 21 days.
In "desperation" and having to wire a 30 amp plug with just 3 connectors to your 4 wire 50 amp power cord you could wire the grounds together, the whites together, and wire both of the hots black and red together to the black hot on the 30 amp plug. Probably would be easiest to get a junction box to do the wiring inside of. This would give you power to everything in your coach but still be limited to 30 amps. This is basically what a 50 to 30 amp adapter does.
At least I think this would work, any other thoughts?
To convert your 50 amp cord to a 30 amp RV plug, do this.
Connect both of the cord's hot leads to 30A hot. The 50A common lead to to the 30A common and the green earth ground to the round pin. That's all a 50 to 30 dogbone adapter does anyway.
Other than just looking at AMP consumption the other variable, particularly in some of the older RV parks in Mexico with only 15/20 service is WHAT IS VOLTAGE WHEN HEAVIER LOADS ARE RUNNING.
Said another way an a "good" 20 amp service, you can run one A/C as long as other loads are off. But when you turn it on, observe voltage carefully. If it drops to 108 VDC turn it off. This can happen, even if voltage with no load is 120 VAC due to use of small gauge wire, poor connections, etc.
"It depends"
What do you want to be able to run?
What phase of the 50 amp is it on?
OK, now, which wire, black or red, feeds the phase you want to run? (this is a bit more challenging to determine, as you might guess)
If you have something on one phase and something on the other phase you both want to be able to run, cutting one of the hot wires is not an option. You can only run things on the phase that is still wired.
50 amp wiring in the coach is TWO mains of 50 amp, 120 VAC each, ideally out of phase with each other. Normal 30 amp RV wiring is ONE main of 30 amp 120 VAC.
RV Electric (http://www.myrv.us/electric/)
50 to 30 (and 50 to 20) adapters tie the 2 50 amp hots together. Using them, you are now sharing 30 (or 20) amps across both phases, instead of having 50 amps available on each phase, but at least it is a simple, temporary change and not a power cord modification. And it allows you to run things on either phase as long as you don't pull more current (amps) than the service breaker and adapter is rated for.
OK to answer your specific question:
30 amp end Function 50 amp end
Green Ground Green
White Neutral White
Black Hot BOTH Black and Red
Putting the two "hot" lines together is the answer I was after. Thanks to all. I hope I never gave to modify anything other than using a pigtail.
Learned a lot, and hope it was helpful to others.
Brett
It is possible that at some point the neutral and ground conductors could have been swapped on his cord plug and the "round" prong was his neutral. ?
I agree that the broken ground prong could not have caused this problem on a properly wired system. That or his monitor is measuring voltage to ground instead of the neutral bus.
The factory power line monitor sometimes shows the same voltages as Glenn saw, on our coach. It seems to just be the monitor as none of the voltages are off at the outlets. Next time I plug in it is back to normal.