Bulkheads I am trying to understand the procedure To put bigger bolts in The front and back of the bulkhead I can see the heads of the bolts going through the angle iron but where is the nuts do you have to cut the fibreglass underbelly or try to disassemble the inside of the compartment I am try to find pictures of this operation or fix there are 17 bolts going across this crossmember what is the procedure to please a nut and washer on the other side it seems like a big job to remove the big fibreglass underbelly and I see that there is insulation above the underbelly is there a step-by-step procedure anywhere that I can follow
If only a couple Rolocks need to be replaced with through bolts, easiest to find a waterproof plug (see my write up on Bulkheads) and drill from underneath through the fiberglass. That gives you access to the "back side" of the Rolock. Double nut it and remove the Rolock. Use OE hole and drill it out oversized to accommodate the new bolt.
But, if many are broken, yes, you will need to cut out all the way across the coach to open that area.
And, if many are broken, very high likelihood that the box beams have lost their structural integrity (rust jacking is what broke the bolts and can very easily compromise the box beam.
SO, how many broken bolts do you have? How much rust jacking-- separation of the bulkhead? Protrusion due to rust jacking of the box beams under the wet bay (compare with how "proud" they are compared with further toward center of coach).
I don't have any broken bolts yet that I see but I do have rust Jack I have grind all around the bolts and and angle iron from one end to the other and I've tried to put a screwdriver where the rust jack is to dig out all rust particles that I could now I am attempting to re-torque at 250 inch pounds butPresume that I will break some bolts I'm trying to do as much research on this before tackling the situation far as the rest of the underneath everything looks to be in very good shape and I am debating if I should just leave left alone but there is rust Jack where it is separating And on the right hand side under the water pump compartment where you can drain the lines to winterize I See a piece of plywood above 10 x 10 that seems to be rotten out I believe it is a Peace just to screw down the water pump and air tank to hold it in place everywhere else is it a solid as can be everything seems to be very solid The underbelly seems to be well attached and I believe that it's glued to the insulation
Minor correction.
At 250 inch-lbs, you will NOT break any of the Rolocks-- they are grade 8 bolts.
By torquing, could you remove the bolt heads of already broken bolts-- sure. And likely that the break will be 4-5 threads in and the broken end badly rusted (i.e. you did NOT break them-- they have been broken for a long time).
Said another way, if you break one (a clean break, no rust) I would be shocked.
I have tried re-torquing them they did not break but I do see separation with in about three bolts in a row so I am going to do like you said and cut a small hole in the belly and probably put a bolt long side and try it I shall try this if I have any problem I'll contact you back what size hole do you usually drill so needy I'll be able to find a plug afterwards
Absolutely, locate a proper waterproof plug first. Heyco 3837 is what I used:
http://www.heyco.com/Liquid_Tight_Cordgrips/product.cfm?product=Hole-Plugs§ion=Liquid_Tight_Cordgrips
You are right they are broken what do you replace them with 3/8 or 5/16
Rust jacking will break bolts plus hydrogen embrittlement will have weakened the bolts. I pulled about 6 or 7 bolts and then used a chisel to open a gap behind the angle iron and then a Sawzall to get as much rust out behind the big angle iron. Roloks were a poor choice to begin with. I replaced a bunch with stainless with nylocs at the far end.. Hot dipped galvanized would also be a good choice. Like Brett says, you can drill a vertical hole up and the install 3/8" bots with flat washers, locknuts and nuts at the far end. If any Roloks break off, you will have to drill fresh holes to the far side so will need a longer bit than normal. Think it's about 3.5 inches to the far side.
I replaced a couple with 3/8" grade 8 bolts and torqued without deforming the rectangular tubing at all.
Photos below show the amount of rust behind the big angle iron in about a 18" to 24" area from the right rear of the coach. Never use a Rolok to make any repair.
Pierce
Bulkhead Repair-- A Comprehensive Look (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=8645.0)
If you do have to drill new holes, a conventional drill may not have enough room in some places. A 90 degree drill like HF sells will work.
Here is a 3/8" diameter, 4-1/4 (cutting length) extended bit to reach the far side. I like to use a lube as I'm drilling to extend the bit life. Chicago Latrobe 120 High-Speed Steel Long Length Drill Bit, Black Oxide... (https://www.amazon.com/Chicago-Latrobe-High-Speed-Length-Conventional/dp/B000LEZZQY/ref=sr_1_17?keywords=3%2F8%22&qid=1576710662&s=power-hand-tools&sr=1-17&th=1)
Inexpensive right angle drill: https://www.harborfreight.com/search?q=right%20angle%20drill
At used tool stores/ebay, a 1/2" Milwaukee Hole Shooter is a great drill for HD use. They are fairly small but can easily break your wrist so you do need to be careful. Use the screw in grip they come with or buy one. Milwaukee hole shooter | eBay (https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313.TR6.TRC2.A0.H0.XMilwaukee+hole+shooter.TRS0&_nkw=Milwaukee+hole+shooter&_sacat=0)
Good to practice drilling a wood 4x4" to see if you have a tendency to drill off center at the far end and how to correct for it. Not that easy to drill a perpendicular hole at a 3-1/2" distance.
Pierce
I drill a hole in the Belly of the bulkhead and it looks the crossmembers are in bad shape anyone know what the price is to rebuild a bulkhead frame just wondering how expensive of a job this is I'm in a small town to find a welding shop that can take this size of a rig in May be a problem
Again, read through all the links on rebuilding. Pretty simple for a good welder. This AIN'T ROCKET SCIENCE!!!
It looks very scary
Don did it without knowing anything about welding, etc. And he didn't have a shop to work in. You can do it. Rectangular steel tubing is cheap. Buy it from a supplier as compared to a welding shop. It comes in 20 foot lengths. You will then need a metal cutting band saw (64-1/2" blade) about $200. Look for one on CL or FB Marketplace. Then a wire feed welder with CO2 tank. 0.032 wire will be about right. Our FD master mechanic was one of 6 certified to weld the big strap on the side of Liberty ships in WWII. I hired him but he said his eyes were bad, too old, etc. I asked him to try and within 15 minutes, it looked like a machine had made the welds. So, it's much easier than stick welding and much, much easier than gas welding. Plus, you can weld uphill or downhill, no flux, no big deal. Then a few tools, grinders, Sawzall, etc and away you go. Contact Don to get his input. He is a talented guy and teacher. PM me too. There are a million little tips to save time and having to do something again.
I bought one of these in the 1970s for about $1400 with tank. I welded Friday night, Saturday, and by Sunday night, it had paid for itself. It still works as well today as it did when I bought it. Cheaper Chinese welders available now from HF or used off CL, etc. Like I said, easy without much of a learning curve. Check out the YouTube how to do it videos.
Pierce
You make it sound so easy tomorrow I'm gonna make a few phone calls and I'm gonna take the whole underbelly off and see exactly what I'm looking at I have a friend that's a welder he's got the wire welder and CO2 I could ask him if you wants to work on it with me is just the thought of tearing the whole inside a part that's the problem and it's winter I don't know if I can get a garage to work in.
Rick,
As I get older, I'm less and less able to function well in cold weather. And I'm talking days in the low 50s and nights in the high 20s. Since our coaches are so big, you do need a large garage to do any work in winter. If you can, I would suggest you wait until spring arrives. Now, I have to come inside and take a hot shower or bath where once the temps get into the 60s, it becomes fun again with a BBQ and a beer at the end of the day.
Using a smart phone camera to document each step in detail makes it so much easier to put things back together again. With a little thought and research, you can do a much better job than the factory did.
Again, before going too much further, contact Don https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1716 as he has direct experience on a coach like yours. He KNOWS all the details and tricks. I welded miles of tubing but for DOT compliance in the grey market so don't have the knowledge he does for your coach..
Your friend sounds like a great resource.
Pierce
Question for those who know more than I.
When discussing rust jacking, how much is a sigh of trouble? My rear bulkhead has some jacking, but I don't have a reference to know if it is a problem or if it is just normal amount on a 20 yo coaches.
Does anyone have pictures of different levels from "not too bad" to "OMG don't drive any further"??
Have It checked out I thought I had minor rust jacking I just bought this motor coach ,it was kept in climate control garage most of the year that was the prior owner told me and I believe him. Went down from Canada to Florida and back every year. I checked under the fibreglass belly and the cross members are rotted out I can put a screwdriver right through.
Really excellent question. Our coach was really clean underneath and showed almost no sign of corrosion/rust. I noticed a couple of Roloks missing and when I tried to back of a few more, they fell off. You could see how much rust was behind the angle iron. Check past advice for checking the tubing, etc.
This is just one sign of a bulkhead problem. Some coaches have had a wet bay leak that caused extensive damage to the rectangular tubing well forward of the bulkhead. The front bulkhead is also susceptible to damage.
Coaches only driven in dry climates are not immune to damage as it may come from leaks, etc.
I did drill several of the tubes and used a borescope to inspect the tubing interior. No rust found.
Pierce
Assuming it is just the rear bulkhead area, start with removing the FG from the back and peel until you get to solid, un-damaged box beams. In many cases, just forward of the wet bay you will find good, un-damaged beams.
Feel free to post pictures.
Some good reads:
Bulkhead Repair (Partial Floor Replacement) (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=31694.msg280564#msg280564)
Rear Bulkhead Repair (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=30114.0)
Before, During, After (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=16653.0)
Don starts buttoning her up (split from Re: What did you do to your coach) (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=17450.0)
Chassis construction photos from Don and welding on your FT - Page 2 (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=14530.25)
A couple of months ago we had a leak in the manifold area.
We turned on the water (outside source) and after about 10 minutes realize it was leaking very badly in that area.
We immediately turned the water off and dried that area and saw that it was leaking underneath.
My question is, is a one time issue like that of concern.
On Facebook, Chris Stump Allen did just this repair this fall past.
It is posted in the group Grand Villa Motor Homes.
Here is the beginning of the project.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3008251505858245&set=pcb.425174748119492&type=3&theater&ifg=1
It was warm.
Yes, it is a concern, as water that gets into the basement sandwich/bulkhead area really has no way to get out.
Were it mine, I would peel back the fiberglass coach bottom until you get to areas there were not soaked. Replace any water-logged insulation. Let it dry out. Then evaluate whether just a wire brush and treatment with rust killer is adequate to repair.
The mild, untreated steel IS susceptible to damage when water gets in there.
I found water in the pump area yesterday and it looks like it is coming from under the tank. I will try and find it this afternoon
when it quits raining. Any ideas would be appreciated.
A week ago or so I too found a bit of water behind the pump and by tanks and thought the pump may be leaking, and as I check all areas every day when we are using the coach I thought ok it has just started, so removed the pump and installed a new one I have had for 2 yrs as spare. All seemed fine for a day then uh uh some drops of water so this is not a pump issue. I had Ruth run the pump and water system while I sat watching it all and saw a drop come down from back of the water heater. A quick check thru the hole in the vertical wall of middle bay showed that the hot line coming from top of heater had a drop of water every 5 seconds or so. It seemed tight at the fitting but was able to get about 1/4" rotation on that fitting and leak stopped right away. So, luckily as I check as mentioned there should be no issue with residual water as I dried what was there up.
Oldguy, maybe you should just for safety check that location too.
JohnH
John, you might consider changing those fittings. Mine where doing that tightened them up several times. The one Sunday tighting up one split, you guessed it in the middle of nowhere. I used watts fittings on them, as you don't have much room.
With respect to bulkheads, a little bit of water dripped on the basement floor is not cause for ripping the bottom of the coach open, or get gray hair worrying about it. I would venture a guess that all of these coaches of the older vintage have some water damage on the structure. If you open it up might as well be prepared to do what's necessary to repair it. As always JMHO.
Yes, but not just of older vintage. Borescopes that plug into a laptop or iPhone/Android and are a cheap and easy way of looking inside the tubing. Small hole and in they go. Plus, this is a bad time of year to even think about it. If you have interior rust, your problem may be severe depending on how far it extends. No interior rust may mean no rust or only exterior rust that may be treated without replacing sections. Amazon.com: borescope (https://www.amazon.com/s?k=borescope&ref=nb_sb_noss_1)
This is also another reason I would not consider a northern coach to purchase used. Many cars are protected and look what they look like in Michigan.
Pierce
I just finished mine up here is my write up. Take a lot of measurements before cutting or unbolting anything
My basement rebuild (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=37910.msg366629#msg366629)
In answering a couple of PMs about borescopes, here are a couple of tips.
It's been a few years but I remember one end being open and then I used a 1/2" drill (I think) on other places in the bottom and then put a plug in.
Read the reviews as some are color and the resolution should be as high as possible. They all have LEDs but the brighter the better. You would probably want to be able to save the video or still file and if a photo, print it also. Probably good to have a USB plug at the end. I do remember that I had to do a bit of searching to get the right software for the best resolution. I will post it when I find it. I have a couple of borescopes but my tools are like my glasses, I lose them only to find an old pair a year later.
A stud finder should locate the tubing through the bottom cover. I also used a stud finder on the roof to screw down my solar panels.
We use the borescopes a lot at aircraft annual time for cylinders and also to check the muffler interiors as the stainless sometimes deforms with age.
Think I either filed or drilled at an angle on some so the borescope would slide in as the very end does not bend much.
If you replace any/all of the tubes, use Tubeseal ( MIL. SPEC. L-21260) to rustproof the tubing interior. Drill a small hole and use a cow syringe to inject it. It will climb the tube walls. Almost all aircraft builders use it. May be available with a different name but needs the MIL. SPEC L-21260. Folker Aircraft went with a synthetic on their engine mounts but after significant corrosion and several hundred thousand dollars spent for new mounts, went back to the old standard. It is similar to boiled linseed oil but climbs tube walls better. Tubeseal Poly-Fiber - TS - Quart (http://spenceraircraft.com/pfi9-ts3-tubeseal-quart.html)
Stump, NICE job and photos.
Pierce
If you are using a Mac or PC, here are the apps to view, record, etc the video or image from the borescope/endoscope:
Downloads - Oasis Scientific Inc. (https://www.oasisscientific.com/downloads.html)
Could anyone advise the years of Foretravel that had the bulkhead issues.?
I do know the late nineties and early 2000's were plagued, as was my 1998 U320with this issue but did the Nimbus models (2006-2010) also have the issues.
I presume Foretravel would have solved this by the time the IH45 came along..
IH-45 came out I believe in 2012. It, the Phenix and Nimbus all three had stainless steel line utility bays.