Hannah and I are in Floral City, FL until the middle of February after that we'll be making our way to Hungry Horse Montana where I will be workamping for the summer. We'll be making several stops on the way but from here to there it's about 2,650 miles and I want to have the coach prepared as much as possible for the journey.
I changed the oil a couple months ago while we were in Pennsylvania and will be changing it again once we get to Oklahoma. I plan on changing the fuel filter and water separator at the same time. The generator could probably use a service also even though it only has like 3 hours on it.
We had a full service done at MOT last year and I plan to go through the invoice and see what all was done but I wanted to ask what needs to be done for regular service and to make sure we're prepared for the trip.
The other thing I was wondering about was updating our house batteries so that we could possibly dry camp for a few days or maybe even a week at a time on our way up there. Our house batteries are only two years old but they're some no-name lead acid 8Ds that haven't been properly used or maintained over that time. They still work but they're leaky and I have no way of monitoring or measuring their current state.
Our coach has the factory installed Taytronics 1500 watt inverter and switch panel that still works fine but it doesn't offer any battery monitoring. We also have the original 7.5amp converter/charger in the basement by the fresh water tank that functions also.
I try reading through posts about people's solar and battery systems but it doesn't take long for my head to start spinning. It all seems very complicated to me and for some reason insanely high discharge rate of batteries if they're shorted or improperly installed makes me nervous to mess with them.
I would like to update our batteries and add some sort of monitoring for them but don't know if that would be fairly easy and relatively inexpensive to do or if the entire system needs to be upgraded at the same time.
Any advice on either subject would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Several members have bought 8d AGM's at O'Reilly's I'm sure they can give more information. That would be the main thing to do. You could upgrade your inverter at this time and add solar later if you want to go that way. Don't remember any posts about solar shorting out batteries. Over discharging is the big killer. A new inverter would have a panel telling you voltage, and with new batteries you keep them over 12.2 to keep them longer.
Tyler, I recommend calling AM solar. They put in my system, both lithium as well as solar. You can DIY it but it can be complicated to the uninitiated. But you first have to know what it is you need. So start with a energy audit. Knowing how much energy you use per day in the coach and how many days you need that between recharges will go a long way I'm telling you how much you need to spend. If you can afford it, I highly recommend going with lithium ion batteries, if you're going to keep the coach for a while. It's not it doesn't make sense to invest that kind of money. Either way good quality batteries in my opinion is money well spent. There is a lot of information on these forums though and other places on the internet. But I understand what you're saying about your head spinning. Too much information can sometimes be a detriment.
Please understand, my recommendations are based on your short post, my recommendations are based on a lot of years with rvs, solar, dry camping and being plugged in. I know not how long you plan to use this rv, you may not either. So being cautious may be prudent.
So here goes. I would start out with an upgrade to your inverter/charging system. This will give you both a proper charger, a sine wave inverter, with an automatic transfer switch for under $800. You do not want to destroy new batteries, so I would start with this upgrade.
Most important, continue having fun. You are on the right track to do maintenance to help with not having as many issues on your first long trip. The gen service is important as it sounds like you may be depending on it.
The most bang for the dollar would be a:
https://www.donrowe.com/mobile/product.aspx?ProductCode=817-2080&404;http://www.donrowe.com:80/Xantrex-817-2080-Freedom-XC-2000-Inverter-Charger-p/817-2080.htm=
Second choice;
http://www.donrowe.com/mobile/Product.aspx?ProductCode=815-2012
Oriellys will change out your batteries with no labor charge, they offer 10% discount to military. It was also posted on this forum they give a discount to FMCA members, that I do not know about.
https://www.oreillyauto.com/search/2002/isuzu/rodeo?q=Agm+agm8d
Now you need a battery moniter. Easy to do complete install, mounting display next to your battery until you can run it inside. This is true because you will end up using the bluetooth to program the 712 and see its readouts, works in iPhone and Android.. I highly recommend the Victron 712.
https://youtu.be/tV055vmZgvY
Solar, I would start out with the most that fits your budget. For ten years I had only 150 watts, made it work with dry camping, running gen to get by every other day for a couple hours, had 100 amp charger with two agm 8Ds.
With todays solar that gives you more for your dollar, I would start out with 600 watts with a good controller that would take you to 1200,1400, or 1800 in the future, depending again on your needs and budget. Allot of posts here with diy systems and paid for systems, including mine on my current FT, going from 560 watts, to 1200, to 1800. Good advise is watching the AMsolar videos on installation and equipment. Many here are happy with their experience with AMsolar and Bay Marine in San Diego. It is your dollars, do your research, what works for one, may not work for you. This is true, as your needs will vary.
Best advise I've received here on the forum has been from Roger's posts. I've taken his advise, still taking measurements with the Victron 712 to understand my needs and use. After years of rving we have gone from mostly dry camping to mostly plugged in, so yes, I'm still collecting data on my use and to get maximum life from my Oriellys 8Ds installed earlier this year.
A good place to start is with some beginner instructional informatin videos from Will Prowse and, or, AMSolar. These start with the basics of volts, amps, wattsystem a very simple solar system. These will help you understand easier the AMSolar videos.
https://youtu.be/cX4s-bxn4fs
https://youtu.be/uobUwjCLfok
and....these are some well made instructional videos from AMSolar.
Solar Panel DIY Installation Help & RV Solar Power Setup | AM Solar (https://amsolar.com/rv-solar/support)
The Soft Boulders wrote:
"The other thing I was wondering about was updating our house batteries so that we could possibly dry camp for a few days or maybe even a week at a time on our way up there. Our house batteries are only two years old but they're some no-name lead acid 8Ds that haven't been properly used or maintained over that time. They still work but they're leaky and I have no way of monitoring or measuring their current state."
"Leaky" is an ambiguous term. Are they leaking electrolyte? Or are they leaking electrons? In an early Russian to English translation of the Ural motorcycle manual a warning was translated as "A great many electrons are stored in the battery. Sudden release could be dangerous."
Knowledge is power, so back to basics. Lead-acid batteries can be broken into two different classes, starting lighting and ignition or deep cycle. True deep cycle batteries are made with solid lead plates and their battery case leaves plenty of depth for the lead oxide that is shed during cycling to accumulate without shorting the bottoms of the plates together. These batteries cannot deliver very many electrons at once, they can't deliver starting current.
Now starting lighting and ignition batteries are made with lead plates shaped more light window screens. The openings are filled with a lead oxide paste and plate separators help keep the paste in place. These batteries can deliver the high current necessary for engine starting. These batteries are intended to be kept fully charged. Fully discharging these batteries causes the plates to shed the lead oxide causing a loss of total capacity and once the lead oxide reaches the bottom of the plates, rapid self discharge.
If you choose to go the Oriellys route, make sure you get the ones with the grey case, black top, as these AGMs are made by East Penn and have served many on the forum for years if properly taken care of as explained above.
Make sure to order the ones with the correct posts as they offer three different types. Mine had the automotive round type posts.
Although Oriellys does not charge to switch out the 8Ds, do not trust completely their installation, as they are not just battery people, primarily they are auto parts counter folks.
I had to replace all the military type fasteners as they could easily be turned on the posts after their installation I replaced all six, as I have three 8Ds. Do your research, you may find a better price, however these are the right ones, and they may com in negative and positive also.
Military Ordinance Style Battery Terminal Connector Adapter Kit (Pair) Amazon.com: Military Ordinance Style Battery Terminal Connector Adapter Kit... (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00W8LAO96/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_EPjgEb59FSS45)
The Oriely battery will look similar to the following, just a different brand by East Penn. The 8D specifications are identical as far as cca, ah, etc.
INTIMIDATOR AGM BATTERIES
The Intimidator AGM battery series won't have any trouble meeting marine needs, from starting performance to a boatload of trolling and accessory power.
Intimidator Heavy-Duty AGM 4D 8D (1903) - East Penn Manufacturing (https://www.eastpennmanufacturing.com/products/intimidator-agm-batteries-3/intimidator-heavy-duty-agm-4d-8d-1903/)
It's a tough crowd here, I ran in to a similar issue with an "ambiguous" term on another one of my posts. I don't know if the batteries are leaking electrolytes or electrons, I just know they're leaking fluid from the top of them.
As far as the old Russian translation goes it could've been a Constance Garnett translation which some literary scholars have complained are outdated by contemporary standards. She translated mostly Russian authors such as Tolstoy, Herzen and Dostoyevsky but may have also dabbled in motorcycle manuals. Haha
Maybe we're just not ready to upgrade our battery system. I was mainly trying to find a way to save us some money by dry camping on our way to Montana. We've spent all we're really going to on the coach as far as upgrades and comfort.
If we had another coach things would be different but as for now I'm not interested in solar panels or expensive chargers and whatnot. I like the idea of being able to run the generator for a couple hours per day to charge the batteries but i don't think the factory installed 7.5 amp charger is going to allow that.
As far as electricity consumption, we really don't use all that much because all of our lights are LED and we can run the refrigerator and furnace off of propane if need be. Other than using a laptop during the day for Hanna's job and in the evening for shows we don't use much electricity.
Your problem with your batteries leaking may only be from your charger overcharging them. You should have a three stage charger and after the charging been completed, check voltage after a couple of hours. Should be around 12.7 volts. Drive to a auto parts store and have them load check the battery.
Our solar installation is about 10 years old and working as well as the day I installed it. It's not hard to do it yourself, just takes checking others installation and ordering some parts. As you can see in our old posts, our total cost including four excellent panels and the #1 rated controller was only $1400. I got a deal on batteries so they only added under $200 but you have to be resourceful and check CL and FB Marketplace for the deals. I paid list for the controller and wires, etc. but panels can be only $0.33/watt if you watch the ads.
Anyone can make the installation. It's not rocket science but some people and shops don't know what they are doing so you have to separate the good from the bad. I've seen first hand, members that did a first rate job with outstanding results. Get a knowledgeable friend to give you a hand.
Pierce
Progressive Dynamics' 9200 series of 3-stage battery chargers also double as 12 VDC power supplies. I run a 9260, with their Charge Wizard Pendent for a pair of 8-D batteries. When dry camping for multiple days, when I'm using the generator I push the button on the Charge Wizard to set the 9260 in "Bulk" mode, 14.4 VDC. The batteries will accept current measured in amperes at whatever rate they need up to the full 60 amp output of the charger.
If you're connected to shore power with low batteries the 9260 will bulk charge for 4 hours, then drop back to an "absorption" charge of 13.6 VDC for about 36 hours then settle in at "float" of 13.2 VDC. Just enough electrical pressure to prevent the battery from self discharging.
Alot of good advice here from others, Pierce, and the Old Toolmaker above. I bought my last two 300 watt panels, two months ago, off a local CraigsL ad, delivered to my door, by him for for $330, total. I mounted in one day using AMSolar brackets and double sided 3m tape.
I like Old Toolmaker recommendation, I once used the 9280 that follows, myself. It is less than half the price of the Xantrex XC 2000, and may meet all your needs. I just find the Xantrex inverter/charger with sine wave inverter, I listed above, a must have for me, as we use the microwave almost every day, not for long, to heat water and reheat food. That being said, maybe you do not. The sine wave inverter is needed to use full capacity of your microwave, also extends life of MW., also does a better job charging cell phones, laptops, etc, on AC.
Progressive Dynamics PD9280V Inteli-Power 9200 Series Converter/Charger with Charge Wizard - 80 Amp is a quality unit with a 80 amp charger, however, for me, not as user adjustable as the Xantrex XC 2000 and no sine wave inverter.
Amazon.com: Progressive Dynamics PD9280V Inteli-Power 9200 Series Converter/C... (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GARO80/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_Q6lgEb7JXYSJB)
Sounds like a good plan Tyler, I usually recommend first useing your rv and monitor what you have, it has gotten this far, may be ok. Continue your research, and learn, for when you decide to improve something, you're more likely to be happy with your choice.
My wife once criticized what I said, thinking I was telling people I lie. "Know that half of what you are told is wrong, including from me. Thou my advice is based on years of rv experience from myself and others, still your experience may be different. It is your $$$, not the guys giving you advice. You write the check, do your research, until you feel your needs are being met."
I really appreciate everyone's feed back and their opinions.
I don't know if we'll go through with any upgrades but I'm going to start by checking our current batteries and having them load tested as suggested.
Is it safe to disconnect the batteries while we're on shore power? Should I at least unplug the charger that runs constantly?
We have the 1500W inverter behind the entry stairs, the charger/converter in the one bay, a manual transfer switch under the bed and the control panel in the kitchen: If we were to start with something like the Xantrex inverter/charger would that replace all four of those components?
That's pretty awesome if so but it's also a lot of difficult to access wiring involved to combine the four into one.
Yes, the Xanrex XC2000 would replace all. You would just have two ATSs, the FT ATS and another backing up by the internal replacement
Xantrex XC2000 inverter/charger. You would gain by getting a better charger, and sine wave inverter designed for a rv.
I believe you might appreciate this. It looks like you have allready a 75 amp, not7.5 amp charger, as original equipment.
1993 U280 Foretravel Specifications (http://beamalarm.com/foretravel-links/models/1993_u280_foretravel_specifications.html)
I would start out by finding out what you have. Do you have the original manuals and schematics?Please personal message me pictures of your current equipment and I'll be glad to assist.
We have an ATS under the bed that switches between generator and shore power but we also have a manual transfer switch that is controlled by the inverter panel. We flip the swith on the panel to select which circuit we want to use.
It is a Taytronics 1500 watt inverter and switch panel.
We had that same inverter and control panel on our coach when we bought it. We eventually replaced both the inverter and the separate battery charger/converter with a Magnum MS2812 inverter/charger. The Magnum inverter has its own dedicated control panel. Since the original inverter control panel was of no further use, I repurposed it into a place to mount other controls. See thread linked below (Reply #9):
Atwood Hydro Flame Thermostat Relocation (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=29819.msg255556#msg255556)
As far as wiring your new inverter/charger, you will have a 120v line in from your current automatic transfer switch and a 120V line going out to your 120V breaker box. Simple for an electrician, you need to judge your own skills. Caution as this is 120V. There will also be a large pair of neg and positive 12V wires going out to the batteries. Hopefully you can just reuse the 12V wires going from your old inv/charge to the batteries. You will have to check lenghth and gauge size. You will also want a remote panel to turn the unit you choose on and off. Often it is not included, on the XC2000, I believe it is. Just research before buying.
The new inverter charger may come with both an owners manual, and an install manual. You should talk to the company you buy it from about install. Their before sale info will give you an idea of their after sale service.
This link to the mfg Xantrex has links to all their info on this product and three worthwhile videos.
http://www.xantrex.com/power-products/inverter-chargers/freedom-xc.aspx
https://www.donrowe.com/mobile/product.aspx?ProductCode=817-2080&404;http://www.donrowe.com:80/Xantrex-817-2080-Freedom-XC-2000-Inverter-Charger-p/817-2080.htm?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI0JGa0e_55gIVFWKGCh3qawu0EAAYASAAEgJMhfD_BwE
After late 1997 all Foretravel coaches came with inverters that can if a optional battery temp management is hooked up that auto adjust the charging voltages per the temp at the batteries, 14.4 can be 1 volt high or more in desert hot weather.
Over and undercharging can drastically shorten battery life. Plus reduce capacity prematurely.
So a full wave inverter and adding a battery temp management hookup(easy) will give the best, longest life to a set of batteries.
We use a Magnum sw2812 and a me-arc control panel. The upgraded panel does not limit charging to timing. Measures the batteries charging rates and adjusts as needed
That's a good use of that space, our furnace thermostat is located by the couch next to the AC thermostat.
Did you guys have the converter/charger in the bay next to the outside sink and water hookups?
Did you place your new inverter in the same place as the old one? We'd have to run some heavy gauge wire to the batteries if we put it in under the stairs where ours is located.
That would be nice and if thats the case we might not have to upgrade? I'll check take pics when we get home.
Take the photographs, I don't know when the switching mode power supplies were introduced. What *I think* you have there is a harmonically regulated transformer, aka, a good way to boil batteries.
I do know the Progressive Dynamics 9200 series can be run as a power supply without a battery connected. You're original equipment Magnatek not so much so.
Regarding replacing your OE you can always do it once and do it right but do the math for your most powerful appliances.
A 1500W microwave will draw around current from the battery at the rate of 120 amperes.
The first and most important thing to do is get rid of that silver converter that changes your batteries as it will for sure overcharge them and that is why you are seeing liquid on top of the batteries. You probably have to add water quite often as well. That converter doesn't quit charging. Like as has been previously stated probably replace that converter and the inverter with a new inverter that also charges the batteries.
Our original inverter was mounted under the steps, just like yours. Our original charger/converter was mounted on the bay wall next to the main DC breaker panel (the one with the white fiberglass cover). See 1st photo below.
I wanted to move the new inverter closer to the coach batteries, so I had it mounted on the bay wall in the place vacated by the old charger.
See 2nd photo below.
If you are interested, link below to our time spent at AM Solar having our electrical system upgraded.
PV System, Installation, at AM Solar (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=26206)
This is the converter charger in the coach now. The picture will not upload but it is a Magnetek model TU-775-2 and it says 75 amps at 12v DC, 14.5 amps at 120v AC and an average charge rate of 7.5 amps.
Is this the one that boils batteries? As stated above it never shuts off.
Not sure what "average charge rate is". To maintain a constant voltage, amps could vary from 75 down to just above 0. But even 1 amp 24/7 at too high a voltage can overcharge batteries.
Basically, this is a very old technology "stupid" charger. Modern 3 stage smart chargers do a much better job of charging quickly and not overcharging the batteries.
If constant voltage can be reduced to mid 13's it should not boil the batteries, though, being "stupid" will do a less than stellar job of quickly charging the batteries.
You would be wise to upgrade to a "smart" charger if you choose not to dump money into the rv. A $200 smart charger from progressive dynamics will save you huge money replacing batteries that the magnetek is overcharging.
Spending a little more for a new combo inverter/charger would replace the taytronics antique as well and really open you up to better living while dry camping. I upgraded mine to a programmable true sine wave inverter with smart charger and my AGM batteries are going on six years and still deliver acceptable performance and I am rarely hooked to a power pole. I keep hoping these will finally die so I can get lithiums!
Did a check on the O'reilly batteries and they want $455 ea. plus a $22 core charge. A grand for batteries, plus $800 for an inverter charger, plus $200 for a battery monitor, plus cables and hardware is just too rich for our blood.
Interstate 8D batteries have a better specification than O'Reilly's and come in at $310 each including a hefty core charge. I won't get the core charge back because I'm trading in a pair of 4D if I were to trade them in.
My current plan, in this order, is to recover from my cold, wait out the rain, finish the Siata, purchase one 8D and the PD9260. Then I'll run out the 4-D batteries as a pair of house batteries, and install the PD9260 to keep the 8D chassis battery up to snuff. This rig came with a PD9160 and al I had to add was the 9160 Charge Master to achieve 3-stage battery charging.
*I think* that if you replace your Mangatek power converter with a PD9280 you'll solve most of your current battery woes.
Yes, this is a battery boiler.
14.5 VDC is good up to 80% state of charge. From then on 13.6 VDC will allow the battery to absorb what it needs, and after that 13.2 VDC will counter the battery's inherent self discharge.
Is that price for a "flooded" battery or the AGM type? The $455 O'Reilly battery is AGM, and is supposedly same as Deka, made by East Penn.
Flooded. We used the PD9260 with 6 DEKA batteries and only needed to water the batteries every 6 months. And that was running the batteries down to 12.0 V (50% SOC) daily in the winter time.
When ordering the Oreilly AGM8D at the store, do not be afraid to ask if they can give you 10% off since two are so expensive. Remember they want to make the sale, as much as you want to buy. Also, you will get the core charge back, whether you have a 4D or 8D to exchange for core. Also it is a big saving having them removing your old 160lb batteries and installing the new at "no charge" for labor.
Labor at other locations can be expensive.
I like Interstate batteries, however, their 8D is a wet cell battery, not AGM, big difference. Interstate makes two qualities of the 8D, the 8D-MHD 132 lbs and the M-8D 123 lbs, both recommended for starting battery, not deep cycle, no ah rating, still one has more lead, the Interstate distributor in Eugene told me. He stocked only the cheaper one, said he always special ordered the more expensive one for rvs, fork lift, floor cleaners, etc. commercial use as most buyers would not pay for the better one. The Oriellys AGM8D, 163 lbs., 250ah. The following is from Oreillys web site.
Group Size (BCI): 8D
Cold Cranking Amps (CCA): 1450 CCA
Reserve Capacity (min): 480 Minute
Amp Hour (Ah): 250 Ah
Marine Cranking Amps (MCA): 1800 MCA
Voltage (V): 12 Volt
Battery Type: AGM
Positive Terminal Location: Right Side
Length (in): 20-3/4 Inch
Width (in): 11 Inch
Height (in): 10 Inch
Terminal Type: Top Post
Weight (Lbs): 163 Lbs.
I started buying agm batteries 15 years ago, have them as start batteries too in my rv and my GX470 "toad". Just do not miss the corrosion, having to check and add water, like the many +'s, see following link.
Absorbent Glass Mat (AGM) Battery Information - Battery University (https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/absorbent_glass_mat_agm)
Shopping for batteries is a pain the the behind. Scott Adams coined the term "Confusopoly" and that pretty much describes the experience. Battery salesmen toss around semi technical terms counting on the ignorance of the consumer to make the sale.
I need to see the 25 amp discharge time and maybe the weight of the battery. Some of the DEKA batteries list a 1 amp discharge time.
Just something that I feel should be noted when quoting battery prices. There are many variations, and a big range of prices, in batteries. Every owner should use whatever type works best for their needs. Lots of variables - like how hard and how often the inverter will be working, how much dry camping is planned, etc. Coaches that mostly travel "post to post" put very little demand on house batteries. Dry camping for weeks at a time is a different deal.
I replaced our 2 old flooded house batteries with (O'Reilly) AGMs simply because the (clever) design of our coach's battery rack made it almost impossible to add water. (My heartfelt thanks to the chassis designers) So for me, the reduction in hassle alone made the choice a no-brainer. Other owners have other priorities, and "cost" is one of the important ones.
As you say, a flooded battery can provide excellent service at a compelling price,
as long as it is properly charged and maintained.
Both east penn and lifeline battery makers state their batteries they make require a temp controlled charger. Smart and temp controlled. You will damage and wear the batteries much faster without either one. Double? Battery life. Unless your batteries are always at 77 degrees your charging voltage is incorrect
Here is my pair of new to me 4D batteries I used to replace the single group 24. Coming soon to this battery bay will be an additional 8D. Drill new holes for 6 sheet metal screws. Sort out the lights and the Siata will be on the road. Next time I water the motorcycle batteries I'll take a picture for you.
Absolutely, battery temperature is a determinant in charge algorithm.
BUT, many inverter/chargers allow you to program in temperature which then has to be changed as your ambient temperatures change. Don't see that as a big deal. Not quite as good as the optional temperature probe, but light years better than "stupid" converters.
Old toolmaker make sure you add venting to the compartment. Your coach came with sealed batteries. Not flooded cells to my knowledge
Quite likely there are already vents-- at least the 1993 U240 had vents from the factory.
Thanks for the advice but BTDT. I have a vent through the floor and one towards the rear tire. Plus with a modern regulated voltage power supply there really isn't much out gassing. When living as I am right now with an infinite power supply, the PD bumps the voltage up to 14.4 every 27 (?) hours for 15 minutes to stir the electrolyte.
Found this on CL
Magnum Energy 2000W inverter/charger/xfer switch MS2012 - electronics - by... (https://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/ele/d/saint-petersburg-magnum-energy-2000w/7017461422.html)
I emailed to see if it was still available and this was the response:
Hi Tyler,
I'm Joseph. The inverter is still available. If you want to test it, I'll be in the Treasure Island area next Saturday; you'll need to bring your own battery(ies). You can stop by to pick it up as-is at any point though and someone will be there to help you. As-is: $500, Test with me: $700. My #
Not sure what to think but it could be a good deal.
Tyler, that's a good quality inverter/charger...I have the MS2812 in my coach. The price seems reasonable too. You'll want to buy the ME-BMK as well, so that you can monitor the battery usage and condition. Woody.
Why the $200 charge to allow you to power it up?
I don't know but it makes me wonder a little. I have a bad habit of believing people are honest and trustworthy. It's bit me in the butt more than once haha.
What wire size do you have from the battery to the charger, you will need 4.0 cable for that charger or the one I emailed you about.
I don't know for sure what gauge the wire is from our current charger to the batteries is but i don't think it's 4 gauge. The charger we have now is in the bay one over from the batteries and the inverter is under the stairs. If we ended doing anything I've got to figure out where to place the new unit and how to run the cables.
H & T
I would shine that deal on and get a new charger/inverter (for a bit more dough) with a warranty. It's an important piece of equipment and needs to be working properly. Plus they can be a fire hazard even when new.
And did I forget to say..........GO TITANS!!
In brief, wire gauge size keeps getting larger until you get to "0" then continues 00, 000, 0000, for 4-0 is read as four zero.
FWIW, welding cable is made with fine strands of wire and is flexible and costs more. So there is a choice depending on your pain tolerance.
That makes more sense, ha, I guess I've always seen it written as 4/0 so it didn't click. Brain fart on my part
More good information and advise in the install part one and install part two videos.
http://www.xantrex.com/power-products/inverter-chargers/overview.aspx
Not so much a brain fart, but specialized arcane knowledge.
Regarding you batteries it's my not so humble opinion, that you need to purchase and install a PD92XX at least 60 ampere capacity maybe 80A. That will help your batteries live their best lives. It will be pretty much a drop in replacement for the power converter you are now using.
The antique Taylor 1500W inverter you can keep using, although for serious computer use while dry camping I'd purchase a 12V power supply for your laptop. But if all you're doing is turning on the inverter for computer use it's probably a wash. Our previous RV had cigarette lighters everywhere so it was no problem to plug the 12V power supply in wherever we were sitting. The Foretravel, not so easy.
Considering the cost of a smart battery charger, versus the cost of a voltage sensing relay we're adding a second PD9260 along with the new Interstate 8D, we already have 8 years of experience with a PD 9260 and two different generators and see no need to experiment. But the chassis battery does run down from parasitic loads.
If you do decide to install a new Xantrex combination inverter charger, you can drop it in where your power converter is right now and take advantage of the 4/0 battery cables, it being easier to run the 120V wires than 4/0 cable.
Me? As soon as it stops raining, I will measure and drill 6 new sheet metal screw holes for an engine pan on the Siata then trouble shoot the lights and I'm good to go. Or rather the car will be. I'm walking on the treadmill on the 15th to get an idea about the patency of my coronary arteries. I've been to 100% occlusion once (Briefly), 80 and 90% once and I'm trying to stay on top.
I spoke with the guy with the magnum inverter today. We talked for about 30 minutes on the phone and he seemed like a trustworthy guy.
He removed the Magnum because he switched to two Tesla model S batteries creating a 48V battery bank. The magnum charger wouldn't work for the Tesla batteries.
The reason for the extra $200 is because the inverter is in dry storage that's not close to him. If he had to meet up with the potential buyer and assist in the setup for testing then it would cost extra. He has someone available to meet for purchasing if we decide to not have his assistance. Idk it might be legit, it might not.
Included with the inverter is the magnum ME-ARC remote control panel and the magnum AGSN auto generator start.
We haven't decided on anything yet because we still have to figure out how and where we can even dry camp. It's something we haven't done before so we're a little nervous about it. A $1500 investment could pay for itself rather quickly but we actually have to figure out how to get it to.
If you can spend $500 and not expect anything but a life experience either good or bad I say go to it. If you can disconnect your batteries overnight and not have the voltage decrease, live with the batteries you've got right now. It's more important to upgrade your battery charging system first.
Dry camping depends on your willingness to be awakened in the middle of the night by a knock on the door.
We're trying to weigh all of our options. I feel like the only way I really learn anything is by making bad choices and having to deal with the consequences. Unfortunately it seems like I have to make the same bad choices several times before learning to do otherwise. Haha
Do you mean to disconnect the charger and try using the batteries over night?
Whether you dry camp or not you still need a good charging system,a pure sine wave is a good choice.
They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome
Chris
That's a excellent value
The propane, smoke,and other alarms may be powered by those batteries, not the best choice to disconnect.
Close. Disconnect the batteries or at least one battery and see if it's voltage drops over night. This will tell you if it is internally shorted.
John44 made a valid point about the propane alarm being off line, but without electricity so will the propane.
The best learning comes after you break something.
The fun begins after the bad decision has been executed.
Here we go. IF you decide to do some upgrades in the future.
Having a little experience in the past with this issue. I'd recommend most of what others have mentioned.
1. Replace the old "dumb" charger with an Inverter Charger, either a Victron, Magnum or if on a budget AIMS. Just make sure it's a Pure Sine Wave Inverter. Even if you only need a charger for now, better IMHO to get it all-inclusive as you can turn off the inverter until needed
2. Buy the best batteries you can afford. My personal preference for reasonably priced batteries is Lifeline AGM's (50% Usable AH), or go with Battle Born Lithiums if you have the cash. (Escapees/Xscapers have discounted pricing) They can run 100% down with no damage (waiting for hate mail now).
3. As far as solar, I've had a great experience with AM solar authorized installer. RV Solar Solutions, who roams around the country, and I also know 2 other guys which I have trust with. I know them personally they do great work and also travel the country. Call Cameron at Lithium Battery Installation | Off The Grid Camper (https://www.offthegridcamper.com/) I think they are in Florida now. and also Andrew at https://www.facebook.com/pullensolar/ he did some final hookups for my Promaster Camper Van traveling in ABQ after I had purchased the components and mounted them on a backplane.
Good luck to you there are many resources to help you!
I've been doing some studying over the past few days. I don't think we're going to go with the CL magnum based solely on our not so stellar track record. It might be a good deal but it also might be a $500 paperweight.
If we do go with anything it'll probably be the O'Reilly AGM batteries and the Xantrex inverter/charger. We don't want to wrap a whole bunch of money into this project for several reasons. I feel like that combo will get us to a good starting point. We'll probably purchase the Victron 712 monitor as well.
We're still in research mode for the time being but I really appreciate everyone's advice.
I've been trying to figure out how long it would take to charge two 250ah agm batteries from %50 dod with the generator and the 80amp charger. Does anyone know about how long it would take?
Also does the inverter/charger use the same 4/0 cables for suply and charge? Probably a dumb question but I don't know.
If we could afford it I'd go with a pair of Tesla batteries.
Hanna and Tyler, I hope this helps. My "guess" to answer your question of how long to charge two 8ds, from 50% to 100% state of charge, with an 80 amp smart charger, is the following, 5 hrs (to 90%). In real life you will only probably go to 80-90% as the topping off would take to long. The topping off will be done when you are plugged in. East Penn is saying 4.8 hrs to take one battery from 0-90%. So let's use round numbers, two 8ds 9.6 hours, from 50-90%, 5hrs.
And so....since in an earlier responce you said,
"As far as electricity consumption, we really don't use all that much because all of our lights are LED and we can run the refrigerator and furnace off of propane if need be. Other than using a laptop during the day for Hanna's job and in the evening for shows we don't use much electricity."
I believe your goal to run the generator ⁷each day less than 2hrs is a real possibility. Especially with the Victron 712, you will easily, on your phone, see the net # of how many amps you are putting in and how many you are using. I learned along time ago, "it is difficult to improve, what you do not measure." This data will help you conserve electricity.
For the most useful information, check out the following Lifeline Technical Manual, "charging" section, page 19, of this Lifeline manual. Although not the brand you are buying, I've used this as my agm bible now for over 10 years. I'd ignore the section on conditioning or equalization as this is specific to Lifeline. The Lifeline manual recommends a 100 amp charger minimum, for two 250 amp lifelines if you plan on going below 50% depth of discharge. I think you will be fine with the 80 amps, as you stated you plan on charging from 50 to 100% charge. I charge my 3 8Ds with 100 amps and I also never go below 50% state of discharge. East Penn even gives data with less than an 80 amp charger to calculate charge times.
Check out page 3, chart B, from East Penn file 0139.pdf below. "For example, to charge an 8G8D (curve H) to 90% in 3.5 hours, 100 amperes are required; at 35 amperes, it would take 10 hours".
Double the times for two batteries.
Lifeline agm's less resistance internal connections charge 20% faster. So figure that in if using their chart?
I am hesitant to use non lifeline agm's as any long term variation from the recommended 20% of capacity or 5% charge rates would seem to damage the plates permanently.
Gels are not as affected. Hence Foretravels use of mk gels in every unicoach made.
I would love to see a capacity test done here on various batteries after x number of years use.
Obviously non used coaches plugged in would show the best life possible per the type.
I bought a couple of variable load test setups that I used to verify my prepper type battery/inverter packs(4Patriot) actual capacity that are adjustable up to a constant 20amp load.
Timing each battery separately should show exact capacity?
I have a double set of inline gauges that show exactly how much power went through them. Neat stuff.
The discharge load testers are separately powered by 12 volt plus or minus 5% for accuracy.
Some shops have battery testers that print out results but I assume these are fairly expensive?
Not sure if they work as well as an actual long term load tester? Plus the inline gauge does verify the testers loads as accurate.
You cannot be too "trick" in my mind about rv batteries and electrical systems.
The coach is a 12volt system to start with
No my tester is not UL listed. Shame on me. Haha.
I was reading an article on agm batteries that said that they could be safely charged at a C/4 rate which is ah rate divided by 4. I guess that would mean that two 250ah batteries could safely be charged at 125 amps? Idk if I was understanding that correctly but that would mean 80 amps is well within a safe zone for charging.
For a two battery setup where would the shunt go for the battery monitor?
The max charge current of any battery will be determined by the battery manufacturer and can vary dramatically from one manufacturer to the next, even when discussing similar types of battery like AGM, Gel, etc, so always defer to the manufacturer's recommended charge rates regardless of any articles that you may read (unless it's an article written by the manufacturer, of course!)
When parallel-connecting two or more batteries (assuming keeping your native voltage at 12v), you should have your positive takeoff from the first battery and your negative takeoff from the last battery (or vice-versa, just don't pull your POS and NEG off the same battery) and the shunt will go inline with one of those takeoffs. Most battery monitors of which I'm aware use a NEG shunt, so in that case your single NEG takeoff from your battery bank will go to the "battery" side of the shunt and all your other system NEGS (chargers, loads, chassis grounds, etc) will connect to the other side of the shunt (on the BMV-712, this is labeled "loads and chargers"). It will of course be very important to ensure that no system NEGs connect directly to the battery, as the shunt won't be able to "see" anything that's bypassing it.
Shunt must be between both battery negatives and loads and charging sources.
In the main line to the battery so that all the electricity going in or out goes through the shunt. Keep in mind that the shunt is a precision resistor and does get warm in use. The shunt is usually sized 2X the maximum expected continuous current.
In my last installation I installed the shunt in the charging line as I only wanted to monitor charging current. I used that and a dedicated 12 VDC led voltmeter to monitor my battery condition. Along with a paper memory taped to the refrigerator door.
Absolutely, the shunt is between the negative terminal of the battery where you connect the cable for house ground and the house ground. So, short battery cable of same gauge as chassis ground cable going from negative terminal to shunt and old coach ground wire to other terminal of the shunt.
And, as already described, the positive will come off the other battery so the electrons flow through all batteries.
I feel like such a dummy when it comes to all of this. I can read and reread the information a 100 times and come out blank in the end. Unless it's in front of me and I can physically lay hands on it it's hopeless. I've taken classes, was an electricians apprentice for a year and installed instrumentation and electrical equipment on natural gas pipelines for two years so I can understand how it works. I just don't know why it's not sinking in, maybe because there's too many variables.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88kGqI9yCV4
The videos that have been posted are really helpful. The DIY solar guy posted a video about how his income stream works and although its not related to the topic it was interesting. He said he brings in around 50k per month with advertisers and affiliated marketing!
I thought making 50k per year was good, I can't imagine making that per month. I really need to become a youtube influencer hahaha.
That Victron 712 is a great unit. Personally we don't like a ton of gauges inside (though some like the airplane cockpit look) so the Bluetooth makes it great for us. The monitor is mounted on a 4 SQ electrical box underneath. I just check my phone if I need status..Used it on a previous rig, now on our Camper Van, and I'll install on the FT once we change out our batteries, (we know they are old already) to new Lithiums
I've spent the last week studying the coach wiring schematics, tracing wires and reading the installation manual for the Xantrex inverter/charger to try and get a better understanding of what's going on with the system before we move forward. A lot of questions I had have been answered by taking the time to study the information I have, but there is still a few things I haven't been able to fully figure out.
One of the schematics I've been studying is the one for the manual transfer switch. I understand how it works and know it won't be used for the new inverter but that is where the question comes into play.
There are two contactors in the MTS powered by either the AC input from the inverter or by shore power. When the inverter is in use there is one 120v line that is split between the two contactors and depending on which circuit is selected by the control panel is the the contactor that is active. Got it.
When connected to shore power both of the contactors are active completing the path for both circuits. Simple enough. And when shore power is present the path to the inverter is broken which prevents current from back feeding into it.
When installing the new inverter is there a need to install a similar setup to prevent current from back feeding into it when connected to shore power?
I'm trying to visualize and understand how the whole system operates and it's pretty involved (at least for me) so it's very possible that I'm just misunderstanding.
Manual transfer switch?? Are you sure it isn't the standard ATS (Automatic Transfer Switch)?
And, yes, you will wire the new inverter exactly the same way. If one hot from inverter wire it to both "IN's" on the transfer switch.
If two hots, wire each to a different "IN".
As an observation the Foretravel prevost conversion uses manual switches to switch the power in that coach.
I have nothing against manual transfer switches-- that is the common type on boats.
Just have never seen one as OE on a Foretravel (or any other motorhomes where I looked).
Beavers had a large manual switch in the upper drivers side bedroom upper cabinet starting in 1989. Gen/off/shore.
They also had a marine circuit breaker panel in that same area versus replaceable fuzes in the foot of the bed.
There is an ATS that switches between shore and generator power but there is also a manual transfer switch that is part of the factory inverter system. The factory installed inverter is setup to power circuits A and B which are a specific set of receptacles for each.
I won't be using that setup with the new inverter system and am not sure how the AC line side of the new inverter will be wired in. In the manual for the xantrex it mentions a source panel and a load panel for the AC system but all we have is a single panel in the coach.
I don't plan on trying to power all the breakers/circuits in the panel with the inverter so I'm not sure on how it's supposed to be setup. In some posts about the xantrex inverter several people have mentioned using 10/3 romex to power the panel (I guess) just not sure.
If I just run romex from the AC output on the inverter to the breakers I want powered then there's nothing to prevent back feeding from shore power to the inverter. That is if I just tap into the existing circuit as is.
Like I said, it's quite possible that I'm misunderstanding how it's supposed to work. It would help if we had the inverter here for me to look at.
I'm sure that this is basically a display of my own ignorance so please forgive me. I'm trying to work this out in my head and this is part of the process.
Most everything you need to know is in the following pdf from Xantrex.
When I updated my inverter it was very simple following Xantrex instructions. Be sure to follow all their safety precautions. I just replaced the in and out AC to the new inverter as the old one was wired. I used the previous DC connection to the batteries. As has been posted the charger connects thru the same DC connection.
Send me a personal message thru the forum and I'd be happy to discuss this with you if that might help.
Please take and post a picture of your existing AC panel with a picture of the list of breakers and what they go to. A picture of your manual disconnect would be useful also.
Since the inverter/charger needs to be on a breaker, there should be a previous breaker marked as such. A 30 amp breaker will require 10awg wire.
AM Solar has a DIY page with a variety of tech manuals and diagrams. Some of them may be applicable to your planned setup.
Solar Panel DIY Installation Help & RV Solar Power Setup | AM Solar (https://amsolar.com/rv-solar/support)
Another good source
Brian Boone -got solar
He installs all over the country, at your camper !
He will dyi, if you purchase from him...
FYI, No long expensive drive to a location
Hannah & Tyler's '93 U280 should have OEM 110V distribution setup shown below (taken from the Forum Media Library:
https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=media;sa=album;in=194
This is the schematic for the manual transfer switch
Since you now have Chuck's reply #82 with your schematic, your addition of a new converter/charger is made easier. I email who your going to buy the XC2000 from, mail them this schematic and ask for recommendations.
Now what you have, thanks to Chuck, is clear, assuming you have the 50 amp breaker shown in your schematic. The only thing unclear to me is whether you have other beakers and their labels after the 50 amp breaker. If you do pictures of both the breakers and labels will help clear this up.
Since you now have Chuck's reply #82 with your schematic, your addition of a new converter/charger is made easier. I would contact first by phone, then email who you can get help from and your considering buying the XC2000 from, mail them this schematic and the wiring diagram of the RP2L (shows in schematic) you photographed, and ask for recommendations.
The help you get before you buy will most likely be similar to the help you get after you buy. This has tremendous value after you buy. This is why, when ever I can, I purchase equipment from AM Solar for solar and Victron and Don Rowe for Xantrex. Others on this forum have had good service on Victron products from Bay Marine in San Diego and AM Solar.
Chuck's schematic was just what I needed to help get a visual. We have both DC schematics but not the AC one so a big thanks to chuck for that!
After writing it out and then thinking on it a bit it started to make more since. I was forgetting that the xantrex was also a charger and that it needs the AC for that purpose. Sometimes, for me at least, it really helps to talk my thoughts out or in this case write them out. This coach is basically a solo project when it comes to the technical side.
I would post pictures of our breaker box but our upload speeds won't allow it. I could only post the last pic after driving into town ha. The box consists of one 50 amp main breaker and several 20 amp sub breakers. There is no breaker for the inverter though.
My plan is to install the xantrex in the compartment under the bed with all the other electrical components. There is plenty of space to mount it vertically and doing so would shorten the cable runs to the battery and the breaker box and would free up a lot of valuable space in our basement. Our air conditioner is in the basement and the current inverter is stuffed next to it completely blocking access to our 12v air compressor.
My only concern is running the AC and DC cables next to one another.
The compartment under the bed might not have enough circulation to keep the Xantrex cool. They have an internal fan and need air.
Agree 100%. Would need an inlet low and exhaust fan (Muffin fan) up high on that compartment. And the built in fan in the inverter could make more noise than desirable in the bedroom.
Not a problem unless you're running signals on those DC cables.
Tyler,
I know your basement storage compartments are probably arranged differently due to your 1-of-a-kind basement A/C setup.
(For benefit of our newer Forum members, the story of a UNIQUE coach: RVAC Central Air Conditioner (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=34871))
A couple of us on the Forum have mounted our (Magnum) inverters on a vertical storage bay wall. Just one possible idea...
Inverter Replacement (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=36227.msg343331#msg343331)
Inverter Replacement (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=36227.msg343348#msg343348)
Nothing a hole saw won't fix! Haha.
Ok that's good to know. I was worried about induction noise from the 120v ac wires.
One thing I still haven't figured out is the AC output of the inverter to the breaker box. The xantrex manual states to not connect the output to any AC source. That's really throwing me off.
1. If the output is connected to a breaker in the box when we're connected to shore or generator power then ther is going to be AC source power on that breaker. Unless I flip that breaker off before we turn on the generator or hook to a pedestal the ac power will back feed into the inverter. Is that correct or am I missing something?
2. If we're only wanting to only power a couple circuits instead of all of them, how am i supposed to wire it up? If there is 120v from the inverter to a breaker in the panel wouldn't it essentially power all of the breakers on the bus bar?
This is why I'm getting confused.
Best wiring is for the inverter and either an internal ATS or an external 2nd ATS to feed a SUB-PANEL.
No possibility of back feeding.
I am not a electrician, nor do I play one on TV. But I do have a basic understanding of how our coach is wired.
AM Solar wired our Magnum inverter exactly as recommended by Brett. Some photos below. I replaced our main OEM shore power/generator ATS with a high quality manual switch (following a suggestion from the very same Brett). So on our coach, AC power comes through the manual switch directly into the original AC breaker panel. It leaves the main panel and enters the inverter, where it is routed as required by the internal ATS. It then leaves the inverter and goes to the inverter sub-panel. Circuits on the main panel are powered either by shore power or generator, depending on manual switch selection. Circuits on the inverter sub-panel are powered either by the inverter (whenever shore power or generator power is NOT present) or by the pass-through function of the internal ATS (when shore power or generator power IS present). It all works great!
1. First 3 photos are the OEM (main) breaker panel, with notes showing circuit changes made by AM Solar techs.
2. Next 3 photos are the inverter sub panel, mounted under the bed platform.
3. Next 2 photos the back and front of our manual transfer switch.
AC Rotary Switch - OFF + 2 Positions 240V AC 65A - Blue Sea Systems (https://www.bluesea.com/products/9019/AC_Rotary_Switch_-_OFF_%2B_2_Positions_240V_AC_65A)
4. Lastly, photo of the installation diagram page from MS2812 manual, with circuit notes made by the techs.
Note to above info: I had AM Solar wire our front air conditioner through the inverter sub panel. This was just a "science experiment" to see if I could eventually run one A/C unit on the inverter. I have still not concluded the experiment - waiting for warmer weather to install a "soft start" module on our front A/C, and to install a new more beefy Delco alternator.
Air conditioners would not normally be connected to the inverter sub panel.
Alright, things are making sense now! :) I've been struggling with how this was all supposed to work off of one panel. Having the pictures of the sub panel it finally clicked for me! Now I just hope that FOT left enough slack in the romex for the circuits we want to move to the sub panel. From some of our other projects we've done they don't like to leave much wiggle room in the wiring haha.
That manual transfer switch looks like a nice option, but after all we'll have invested idk if we can swing another $300.
I really appreciate everyone's assistance and their patience with us. This forum and its members are an invaluable asset!
The original ATS (if working properly) is fine for its intended purpose - no reason to replace it.
We removed our original ATS was because of the noise it made. Some people are more sensitive to certain types of noise. My wife and I seem to be in the sub-group that is bothered by electronic noise of a certain frequency. The ATS would drive us crazy at night when it was otherwise very quiet in the coach. Other people might not hear it at all. Just one of those things.
And, for those who might not like the noisy OEM ATS but still desire the automatic function, they make a type of ATS with a DC powered coil, which is supposedly less noisy. I didn't bother to try one of those...just moved straight to the manual switch. Works well for us.
Automatic Surge Protected Transfer Switch (https://www.progressivedyn.com/rv/automatic-transfer-switches/pd52dcs-pd52s-240-vac-50-amp-automatic-surge-protected-transfer-switch-the-silent-ats/)
The xantrex inverter/charger that we are considering does not offer a charge rate that is battery temperature controlled. Our batteries are housed in a frame with no sides and exposed to the elements. The temperature can change quite a bit during the day and at night and I'm concerned about the charging abilities of the xantrex and the effect on our batteries.
But, I would be surprised if in the "set up" which may even be actual dip switches you can not choose "temperature range" so the charge algorithms are close.
Check in your Xantrex owners manual. Earliest models, as I recall, had the dip switches on the inverter itself, then on the back of the remote, then the remote became programmable from the front.
We left our original ATS in also. The automatic transfer switch in the Xantrex converter/charger works fine with the original FT ATS.
The dc coil ATS Chuck gave a link to is the one to get, if you ever have to replace yours.
Glad you have grasped the installation. A good diagram for a basic marine or rv installation is on page 12 and 36 of your install manual for the XC2000.
Dip switch adjustable charging voltages would obviously involve constant resetting. Hence the last 20+ years of Foretravel production using a battery temp controlled charging setup. Wrong inverter it would seem?
As I recall (Tyler, please confirm from your Xantrex manual) you can use the dip switches to choose warm (over 80 degrees F) or cool (under 80 degrees F).
Agree, not as precise as wider range of temperature input to charging algorithms, but absolutely better than none. And, then change it with the seasons-- likely only twice a year.
As Wolf10 says above, you will have no worry of ruining your batteries, from your Xantrex Freedom XC2000 inverter/charger. This will be true as long as you install properly. Change settings first to battery type and save, next go to custom battery type setting, change ah capacity to correct one, change to and set absorption at 14.3, set float at 13.3, set equalize to off, set to proper battery temperature cold setting, under 40 degrees, warm, 41 to 89, or hot setting, 90 and above, happy travels.
I prefer these conservative settings of Lifeline for all AGM batteries, even Oreillys East Penn AGM8Ds like I have.
You have 3 settings, cold, warm, and hot from the panel that comes on the XC2000. You will have completely adjustable voltage parameters with the XC2000 in addition to all the other features with smart 80 amp charger, built in ATS, load share, AC passthrough, etc. For example if you have the unit set for warm, 77 >degrees, 14.3 absorption charge and 13.3 float charge as Lifeline recommends for their AGMs, at 120 degrees (hot) correction will be approx 13.87 (down 0.043v from 14.3) and at 50 degrees (cold), correction will be approx 14.72 volts (up 0.042v from 14.3), Xantrex manual on page 48 says selecting cold from warm will change voltage charge up by 0.4 volts, selecting hot to cold, charge voltage, up 0.8 volts. See following chart from Lifeline manual. These Xantrex settings go along with Lifelines information in the chart below. Xantrex support confirmed today that at 40 degrees and below your setting should be cold, 41 to 89 degrees setting should be warm, 90 degrees and over setting should be hot, and you will not ruin your batteries. If the extremes are your constant norm (I would recommend moving, lol), just modify your absorption and float voltage setting up or down by the chart below to reflect these extremes.
From Lifeline manual.
Shared album - John Lewis - Google Photos (https://photos.app.goo.gl/YRbJhpSaanjciBYg7)
These are not set by dip switches, they are set by the remote panel that is available for $65.13 with 25' cable, or the panel on the unit itself by buttons. With an extention cable easily running to the interior, you will be able to adjust the settings from inside, with the following remote (or on the unit itself). So....yes, for less than $66 additional you will have your remote panel. For another approx $195, a great BMS in the Victron 712, with battery temperature and all the other information you will need monitor your batteries. Most all of us have a budget, so I understand that you may want to install the inverter by itself and do the $300 info panels next year, if your budget and plans dictate.
$65
Xantrex Freedom X/Xc Remote Panel W/25' Cable Amazon.com: Xantrex Freedom X/Xc Remote Panel W/25' Cable: Car Electronics (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07G8639H7/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_Em4lEb826THJQ)
$646
Xantrex Freedom XC 2000 817-2080 Amazon.com: Xantrex Freedom XC 2000 817-2080 Power Inverter: Automotive (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074V5JKLX/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_LK3lEbAA9B1N8)
This short 3 min video covers the features pretty
thorough and fast.
https://youtu.be/h2Aqa7jqRfQ
If you want to know the temperature of your battery, this is easily available on your phone with the Victron 712 battery moniter system, for approx $195, again, I suggest this if you want to monitor battery temperature, ah in and out usage, state of charge, and you are interested in extending the life of your batteries. That is with budget and needs balanced.
$195
Victron BMV-712 Battery Monitor Amazon.com: Victron BMV-712 Battery Monitor: Electronics (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075RTSTKS/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_ia4lEbPYV40DAdjusting)
Feature Settings in Configuration Mode
Audible Alarm (Audible), (Mute) The alarm beeps once every five seconds. Battery Type (Flooded), (AGM), (Gel), (Custom) (LiFePO4) The use of (LiFePO4) as a battery type requires a compatible BMS. See page vi for safety warning instructions. Battery Temperature (Cold), (Warm), (Hot) Selecting Cold from Warm will increase charger voltage by 0.4V. Selecting Cold from Hot will increase charger voltage by 0.8V. Custom Absorption Voltage . . to . The voltage setting value can be adjusted by 0.1 increments. Available only when custom battery type is selected. Custom Float Voltage . . to . Charger Current (Freedom XC 2000) to The current setting value can be adjusted by 5A increments. Charger Current (Freedom XC 1000) to Charger Ignition Control (OFF), (Auto-ON) When set to (Auto-ON), the charger operates only in tandem with the vehicle's ignition circuit. Equalize Charging for Flooded Battery (enable), (disable) This setting is only available when Flooded battery type is selected. It allows only one hour of equalize charging once. AC Input Breaker for Load Share to The load share feature prioritizes the AC load by reducing the charge current in order to maintain the total input current to less than the load share setting. Setting Name Setting Number Default Value Range of Values Description
Page 48 Freedom XC Owner's Guide
Got a big delivery of goodies today!
Xantrex inverter
Victron 712 Smart monitor w/temp sensor
AC Infinity Airplate fan system with Thermal trigger (for ventilation/cooling of compartment)
TEMCo lug crimper for 4/0 cable
Cable cutters for 4/0 cable
Military battery terminals
4/0 terminal ends
And 4/0 heat shrink
Waiting on the 3 inch vent covers to come in
Still need to get the batteries and a small sub panel and breakers but we're just about ready to go.
Getting pretty excited, I think it's going to be a trick setup once it's all done. Plus I got to buy some new tools which is one of my favorite parts of new projects! :)
Wooo Hooo! Go Big or Go Home!
You had a problem. You needed a solution. You found a solution. You chose to implement that solution.
Congratulations.
Good for you, because in this day an age we need electricity. As I sit here with my central heat, fluorescent lights, television(s) and Apple laptop(s).
Got everything installed and it's working excellent! I'm pretty pleased with how it turned out.
Now for the new batteries, ours are toast.
For anyone that's going to be crimping large gauge wire I recommend that TEMCo crimper. It's pretty beefy but it works super slick.
We've got the new batteries installed and everything is working well but I have a question on the charged voltage.
The charger seems to be doing its job and the batteries seem to be charged completely. The charger went into float and was there for a few days maintaining a voltage of around 13.4ish. However when we disconnected from shore power the voltage on both the victron and xantrex was reading around 12.6. We turned off everything we could to reduce drain on the batteries but that was the best reading we could get.
Does 12.6 sound right for freshly charged batteries? I thought it would have started closer to 13.2 but am not really sure.
If you're running some flavor of lead-acid battery then 12.6V after a 3-hour rest is a good number. If you're running one of the Lithuanian batteries, you need to ask someone else.
A resting fully charged AGM battery should be 12.75 to 12.85.
A float voltage of 13.4 would be correct at 100 degrees F as far as I know.
Seems you are not at 100 degrees so the 13.4 is at least .2 volts low as is the resting voltage.
My temp controlled charger floats the house and engine batteries through the combiner at 13.6 at 77 degrees as far as I see.
The charger auto adjusts its charging and float voltage fairly constantly during temp changes.
Enough so I think I have noticed the panel showing different voltages in hot versus cold at the battery temps.
Which seems to me to indicate the system actually works like it said it's supposed to?
The only way to really tell is to disconnect the batteries after charging, wait several hours and check voltage. Lead acid should read about 12.6-.7. Checking right after the charge has finished will always read high. See chart.
Pierce
Alright I think we're in a safe range. We ran the generator while we were on the road yesterday and when parked and shut it off we started at 12.81V.
As for the float voltage of 13.4 being off by a couple tenths I'm not sure, it might be. We have the settings on the xantrex to AGM for battery type and a temp setting of warm. The charger has preset parameters and isn't really customizable unless I set it for a custom battery type.
Thanks everyone :)
Change the temp setting to not warm?
Just in case you missed this information in your reading, here is why you don't run the charging voltage too high with AGM style lead acid batteries:
Charge voltage is critical with these types of batteries as both are recombinant batteries. This means that the oxygen that is normally produced on the positive plate in all lead acid batteries recombines with hydrogen given off by the negative plate. The recombination of the hydrogen and oxygen produces water, which recycles back to the battery acid, therefore the battery is maintenance free and does not need topping up.
The sealing vent used in the design ensures that a positive internal pressure is maintained to ensure the recombination of the gasses occur and not allow the cell ?to dry out and fail.
In addition, the valve must safely release any excess pressure that may be produced during overcharging ?(e.g. alternator rectifier fault), otherwise the cell would be irreversibly damaged. The excessive pressure that the valve is releasing is both hydrogen and oxygen which can not recombined within the battery so breaks the cycle, net result is that battery would eventually dry out.
From:
AGM & EFB Automotive Batteries Explained - Yuasa battery (https://www.yuasa.co.uk/info/technical/agm-efb-explained/)
Congratulations on the successful completion of a much needed upgrade.
The warm setting takes him from 40 to 90 degrees. The AGM warm setting he is using should be just fine. I can not remember if he has the Victron 712, if he does that will give hime accurate temp readings.
Even Lifeline says bulk/absorb their AGMs at 14.2V-14.4V and float at 13.2V-13.4V.28 de mai. de 2012
I have two temp sensors, one from Victron 712 and other from Xantrex SW200p, both always read the same.
The posters answer at one point stated a resting volt of 12.61 on a fully charged AGM battery.
Anyone think a fully charged good condition AGM's resting voltage should be 12.61?
If you were "on the road" then the alternators output may be higher than the charger and may have brought the batteries up to full charge?
If the 12.61 volt readings repeats itself I would change the settings to cold to increase the float and fully charged voltage just to test.
Like I have seen on our coach the auto temp compensating charging settings are required by the battery makers anymore.
My original heart freedom 25's built in our feb 97 produced coach was a few serial numbers below 100,000. So somewhere in 1997 all the coaches built had the ability to have a temp controlled charging system.
That's on modded sine wave units.
The warm setting may not be the actual correct one it seems. You may need to tinker with it to end up where you need the batteries to be.
For sure a desulfurization device would be on any AGM battery I owned to help keep the condition as good as possible as most cannot be equalized.
Lifeline are .2 volts lower than other agm's due to their higher capacity internal connections as far as my programs show in my magnum me-arc panel.
AGM 1 and AGM 2 are in their auto programming
I shut the main breaker off to check the batteries again and after about 3 minutes the battery voltage stopped dropping at 12.55 volts. I turned off all of the breakers in the sub panel so that there was no power draw on the inverter which I thought might be affecting the voltage and after about 3 minutes the battery voltage came up to 12.64V.
I'm going to disconnect the batteries and let them rest for a few hours and check them with the voltage meter. Is it possible that we have a bad battery or is the float voltage not high enough as some have suggested.
I have tried switching the temperature mode on the xantrex and every setting stays at around 13.4V for a float charge. The float voltage fluctuates a lot from around 13.1V to 13.6V but it stays around 13.4 most of the time.
We ordered everything from Hodges Marine and they don't have tech support so I can't ask them and xantrex says to contact the seller for questions or issues. Hahaha
Right after disconnecting the batteries one read 12.81v and the other read 12.83v. They've been sitting for a little over an hour now and they're both reading 12.94v. I will check them again in a bit.
Congrats, nice upgrade you have completed. 12.83 number for, and at, your battery matches my Orielly's AGM8D readings at full resting charge also. Also I would keep your battery settings at AGM, temp at warm, unless battery temp on Victron goes over 89 degrees or below 40 degrees, as Xantrex recommends.
Lithium's HATE cold. AGM all day long
Not a problem.. dont think you should allow any battery to freeze
Wet cells have limits, AGMs have limits. Lithiums have limits. Know your limits.
see ya
ken
I understand from a Tesla 400k mile model X service history thread that Tesla battery banks are connected to the cars air conditioning system. I would guess both cooling and heating but have no info.
Did not battleborn at the FMCA rally mention to attendees that a future product was a 8d frame with an internal heating system
Yes, I was told it would be out early this year.
I think the newest Tesla cells are a different, larger measurement and are hollow inside which would allow flow
After about 10 hours of resting, the voltage on both batteries was 12.95v. I think the xantrex is working as it should and our batteries are in good shape. I forgot to turn off the salesman switch earlier so there is probably draw from the dc side that I wasn't considering that was causing the lower voltage reading.
I think we're probably over worrying about things because it's all new to us and it was quite an investment for us. We'll continue to keep a watchful eye on things though.
Thanks again to everyone.
Well I made a mistake... we got home this evening, I reconnected the batteries then came inside and turned on the electric heater to warm it up. It ran for about two hours without shutting off and I never thought anything about because I was watching YouTube and planned on turning it down before I went to bed.
Then I heard a beeping and went to investigate. I opened the bathroom and the victim 712 is flashing, beeping and reading 48%. Instantly my heart sank and I thought what the heck happened now! I was really concerned. Then it occurred to me that I never turned the main breaker on and the heater had been running off the batteries and inverter this whole time! Oh sh*t!
So I ran to turn the main breaker back on and to check the inverter. The inverter didn't feel abnormally hot and the voltage % of charge began to come up quickly.
I started to feel a little better but now the bulk charge is sitting at 13.7 and the victron is reading 13.23 so now now I'm concerned again.
The bulk charge voltage is normally in the 15v range and the xantrex and victron usually read the same voltage. I'm not sure why the bulk charge voltage is only 13.7 and am really hoping I didn't screw something up!
On the positive side though I'm impressed with the inverters ability to run a 1500w heater for some 2 hours nonstop without overloading and shutting off.
It's kinda funny how I could get so worried about things and then do something so dumb.
Yesterday with the Victron BMV-712 showing 48%, and it was in bulk charge, how many amps did the 712 say were going in to the battery? What is your 712 saying this morning, amps, volts, and charge %?
Did you calibrate the Victron 712 as your manual says? See the following discussion and then watch the video. See page 10 of manual.
Manuais - Victron Energy (https://www.victronenergy.pt/support-and-downloads/manuals#item=manuals-bmv-712-smart)
"Ensure there really is no current flowing in or out of the battery" and "disconnect the cable between the load and the shunt, then press select"'
In your Victron settings, have you set battery ah to 500 for your two 250 ah AGM8D batteries and battery type to AGM?
BMV712- How to do a zero current calibration - Victron Energy (https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/20193/bmv712-how-to-do-a-zero-current-calibration.html)
In the following video, you can trust calibration method if you do not have a clamp meter to check with.
If readings remain strange, you might request a new cable for between meter and shunt from Victron, explaining your issue. I found Victron responds slow to email, however eventually they do respond.
https://youtu.be/7J4aPBSmGQg
I set the 712 up appropriately when we installed it. I believe everything was reading correctly because the heater was drawing up to 187 amps from the batteries which would make sense considering time frame.
I checked this morning and everything was back to normal. Just scared the crap out of me last night because I wasn't expecting it.
There is a 175a fuse inline on the + battery side and it didn't blow. The cables, batteries or inverter did not feel warm last night so I don't think anything was harmed.
I freaked out a little last night but feel much better this morning. There's not much I could have done if something had gotten damaged except fix it and learn a lesson.
At least now I know that the xantrex will handle a large load for a long period of time and that the 712 will let us know when we're down to the 50% soc threshold. All is well that ends well I guess :)
1. Great way to test the system!
2. System passed the real world test.
3. More Amps Scotty! Captain I canna give you more amperage, the charger is maxed out!
4. The batteries are usually at a higher state of charge.
5. It's called Being Human.
Correct charging voltages are directly linked to the battery temps.
13.4 bulk is good at 100 degrees F. Almost one volt low at zero degrees.