Time to replace the house batteries in my 2000 U320, and I would like to switch to lithium-ion for the longevity. I found a source where I can acquire them for a reasonable price, but can't seem to locate any information as to what changes will need to be made to coach charging system. Has anyone done this yet or can you offer advice as to where I can locate such information?
Many forum members have received information and products with good after sale service, that you will find most important, from AM Solar in Springfield, OR., and Bay Marine in San Diego. Ca. This is not the time to go with the lowest price seller.
RV Solar Panel Kits & Camping Solar Panels, Batteries & Chargers: AM (https://amsolar.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI-IbZ2LP85gIVQIFaBR1UEguWEAAYASAAEgIL2PD_BwE)
Bay Marine Supply (https://baymarinesupply.com)
The most information I've gained has been from this forum's members by doing a forum search and AM Solar. The following installation of Rogers should be of use to you.
600 AH Lithium Battery Installation (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=37729.0)
When you say Lithium ion, what chemistry are they?
Lithium Iron Phosphate, LiPO, are what most of us are using and are considered the safest chemistry.
Also What type of batteries? Are they drop in replacement like Battle Born or homemade ones. The answers depend on many different factors.
Post up what your coach has as in inverter and any solar or what nots..
We can start with the basics. What size bank are you planning and have you done any measurements of use? Do you have a monitoring system now?
Start us from the beginning and we can help you move forward economically .. and help you do this correctly the first and only time
A lithium bank has to have a good bms to work. Or it could be a short visit in your coach. I looked for a long time at them, planned on building my own system, then bought a coach that already had a professional install with Victron in it. AM solar did the install and its very good. One can do their own system if they know what they are doing. But the key is a bms. Cheap batteries might not cut it, but hard to say. Do your homework. They are typically not drop in replacements for agm or lead acid.
My system is 600 amp hours of which 480 is usable. I have 1500 watts of solar on the roof as well as a good solar charger to keep them charged. Victron bms. Victron inverter charger. My guess is around 15 coach bucks went into the system, or more with labor. They put it in the space the washer dryer was. Keeps them warm and there is good airflow with the louvered doors. I don't miss the washer. Yet....
I know I could have built a system for a bit less money. Others have too. But I like Victron's stuff, so I'll keep it, hopefully for a long time.
Bob
I did everything myself
1200w solar with 2 victron Charge controllers
1200ah Lithium Bought off Aliexpress with internal BMS for under and over currents (100% usuable) (400ah each approx cell or individual block)
Victron inverter multiplus 3000 with color Monitor
Battery monitor
Ran the wires/ made the brackets bought the electrical boxes and such at home depot
Ran#4 wire for future upgrades and ran 2 positive and 2 negative wires from top to basement
Probably have Half that cost in it but a few hours to put it in..That is what costs.. Guessing between $7-8K approx (guessing)
with new battery cable also..
IT can be done pretty cheap if you can do it yourself.. Take your time and buy supplies on sale ( everything was new that I installed).
"Lithium Iron Phosphate, LiPO, are what most of us are using and are considered the safest chemistry."
Just to clarify the technical details, LiPo is lithium polymer (think cell phones, "hoverboards", etc.) and is known to be somewhat unstable in that it's prone to thermal runaway when charged incorrectly. Lithium Iron Phosphate is LiFePO4, or LFP to abbreviate, and is far more stable and is what we're discussing when referencing drop-ins (with an internal BMS) like Battle Born, Victron SuperPack, ReLiOn, or indeed most component packs (with an external BMS) like the Victron Smart LFP banks that several here on the forum have.
...I generally try not to nitpick, but the details are important when referencing battery chemistry.
You don't want to create a Frankenstein rig like I did. Home brew rigs are not as maintainable due to the non-standard configurations. It is harder to sell a rig with a home-brew electrical system. That said, I just purchased a lightly used Tesla Model 3 module for my Sprinter Van build. It was $2,500 for a 20KWH, 96volt battery. That's the equivalent of 1,666 amp hours of 12VDC batteries. What a value!!
However, I had to use Chinese inverters to convert the 96VDC to 120VAC and 220VAC. Long story.
After all my research and experience with a few manufacturers, I'd have to say VIctron Multiplus Inverter/Chargers is a really great way to go. Probably a 3000 for your rig. Which is what we used in our 2003 U295, A very simple swap. If you're an Escapees/Xscaper member Battle Born in Reno will give you a nice discount too. For the $39.00 for an Escapees membership even if you don't use it for anything else.
You can use it easily with Lifelines AGM/Gel/Lithium...I'm a Battle Born Fan because of the service and support, (not a Fanboy yet) other good Lithiums are out there, but the support...meh. I have at least 20 friends who have installed Battle Born Lithiums and not one issue? Battle Born have super nice folks and they will pre-program your setup before shipping. I've been out to Reno 2 times and have had nothing but great experiences and a factory tour.
I also outfitted our new 2019 Camper van build with Battleborn/Victron, all Bluetooth, the stuff works awesome. Nothing wrong with Magnum or others, but Victron is easy, has great support, and Sean at Battle Born has shown they are in it for the long haul.
OK, enough of drooling over Battle Born, whatever you decide I'd recommend getting Marine Grade components! Forget all that e-bay no name junk. Good luck!
A friend also did the Tesla thing, with 6000W on the roof (Prevost) he's a very dangerous mad scientist, not for my faint heart
Me too, running a 21 kwh leaf gen 2 battery pack at 48 volts. It's in the S&B garage so I can monitor it. Much easier on the 7.2 kwh BattleBorn 12 volt system in the coach, set it and forget it.
But used EV batteries are getting so cheap, hard to pass them up. I am using 5200 watts solar to charge Nissan Leaf batteries to charge a Tesla. Go figure.
See my Tesla battery video at:
https://youtu.be/Ly9qbCge-5o
Don't do it! AGM's are better in cold and cheaper. Lithiums are still not there
Here is real world experience.
My Battleborns (600 ahrs) are charging and discharging down to -17°, (minus 17) that is as cold as it has been so far. With my $10 per battery battery heaters they stay 40° or more above ambient and since they are powered by the batteries themselves the batteries are active which helps keep them charging. The low temperatures stated by the manufacturers are for static inactive batteries. If your Battleborns are doing nothing and it is 20° they will not accept a high charge but they will accept a small (maybe 6 amps) charge and slowly start to warm themselves internally.
In the last couple days we went for about 36 hrs running everything in the coach, residential refrig, Aqua Hot, lighting,TV and everything else with very little solar input and no other external power sources (no generator) and went from 100% SOC to 52% SOC. About 290 amp hrs. Then we plugged in and the Victron Multiplus had them back to 100% SOC in about 5 hrs splitting 100 amp charge between 6 batteries.
Price points make them not for everyone but considering you should get 10 yrs out of them and you will save more than 400 lbs of battery weight they are worth looking at. And prices will keep coming down.
So real world experience with them set up right says they work for us and will for you as well. Understand how they work and solve the issues to make them work for you.
Just finished installing 2 Lithium pro 100 AH batteries in the coach,talked to them and Battle Born extensively at the show and went with them,the alternator will not overcharge them,we don't boondock,so far so good.
Well I'm not really sure where you get your information from, but I can assure you that lithium's really are quote there unquote. There is no doubt that lithium-ion batteries are more expensive. They're also is no doubt that lithium's have some difficulty in the cold. However as many of us already know, the expense, over their lifespan, make them cheaper then a good quality AGM battery. And there are ways to deal with the cold issue to make it a non-issue. On Rogers coach, he installed the Battle Born heaters. On mine they're installed inside. Since my body doesn't like the cold either I keep it warm inside when it's cold outside. I also have a battery management system or BMS, that will prevent the batteries from being charged if there below a certain temperature. The other thing that I really like about these batteries is the weight reduction, and size reduction. They don't take up much space and they don't weigh very much. On these coaches that can mean a lot. They also can accept a really high rate of charge, and can be discharged rapidly without damaging them. And there cycle life is far beyond lead acid technology.
Batteries like wives are to each is own. What one person may love another person may not. If you're the kind of person that goes from RV park to RV Park then the expense of these kinds of batteries is not needed. You can get by with AGM's from O'Reilly's and be fine. If you like to be off the beaten path a little bit more then this kind of technology will really shine.
My last sailboat I put in thin plate pure lead battery technology. At the time that was Hi-Tech. Lithium's were beyond the reach of most people. These these days though lithium's are the hi tech. And are available to anybody with the pocketbook to afford them. I don't think there's any doubt in all of that. Are they really needed in your coach? Only you can decide that. Let us know what you do decide.
Also to answer the original post, my batteries are not charged via coaches alternator. The charge strictly through the solar controller which is the largest Victron makes, as well thru the Victron multiplus inverter charger. At some point I may look into putting in a larger alternator and a dc-to-dc charger. But at this point I don't feel I need it. So the batteries are charged by solar, by the generator, or by plugging in. I have both a victron battery monitor as well as their color monitor. It gives me a really good idea what's going on with the system.
I can only speak of my own recent experiences with my 300 amps of Battle Born batteries along with 400 watts of solar. We spent from Sunday to Friday morning at Q with the group. Had 2 days of cloudy weather so didn't get a full charge back those days. Even so we did not have to run our generator to recharge. We did get down to 20% Friday morning but that didn't even concern me. On our Alaska trip last summer we spent 1/2 the time dry camping and didn't need the generator there either.
For us these work fantastic and I wouldn't consider going back to lead acid.
Talked extensivly with the president/owner of Lithium Pros and he assured me my 160 amp alternator at 13.8 volts all day long is
OK.
I have just ordered 6, two volt 600 AH silicone batteries. They don't lose any power in the cold so I thought I would try them. I boon
dock in the winter and with these batteries I might be able to run the generator less as they will take a charge faster. They take
less space (I will be able to put a shelf above them) and weight less than the AGM batteries that are in there now.
Silicone?
Does anyone make UL listed li-ion batteries yet? Other than just the cells?
Silicone Batteries (http://www.siliconebatteries.ca/gs.html)
Oldguy,
Please keep the forum updated on your silicone 2 volt batteries. They sound intriguing.
Richard
I choose the 2 volt batteries as they would fit the best and yes I will keep forum up to date. It will be awhile until they arrive.
Battle Born batteries can be mounted in any orientation. I layed them on their sides and stacked them 3 high. 600aH worth in the space of 2 8Ds.
Just a few minutes to find...
Battle Born Batteries "All of our cells are listed to UL 2054 standards.
BB10012 batteries listed to UL2054 standards, IEC 62133 and UN38.3"
Battle Born batteries are LiFePO4, one of several lithium ion types.
Lifeline AGM Batteries " UL Recognition. All Lifeline® AGM batteries meet the requirements of UL® 1989 (Standby Battery) and are UL recognized under UL File Number MH-17983."
Different batteries, different specs.
Here is some newer info from UL
https://msc.ul.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/UL_WP_Safety-Issues-for-Lithium-Ion-Batteries.pdf
If someone has a link to the battle born post showing their statement of being listed under various testing standards that would be appreciated.
It does not show on their website or on the batteries themselves.
Did I miss this?
Just another couple minutes to find ...
The most recent BB spec sheet. Look on the first page.
My coach is right at GVWR, so in an effort to shed some weight (around 400 pounds worth) without tossing "my stuff", I followed Roger's lead and took the Battle Born plunge...BB had a good discount going at the Q big tent, which iced the cake to get 6 of the 12v standard packs. Configured much like Roger's install using buss bars and direct, equal length battery connects, but decided to lay them on their sides and stack them instead of manufacturing a new tray and opted to do the drop in replacement vs. adding a B to B charge controller for now. The slide wall truss was a pain in the arse to work around during upper rack removal, cleaning, and prep. Spent a few days getting layout board, and buss board built, but total time power off to replace everything in the battery bay was just 4 hours. Per BB's tech support advice, placed some of that rv anti skid mat between each battery and strapped them to the rack with cargo straps. They're not going anywhere. Sealed up the bottom vent holes and drilled a few holes through to the adjacent aquahot chamber to allow air to circulate in the battery compartment. It sure was nice to wake up to 13.0 volts the past few mornings! JWID.
Lithium Pros has their show special until Feb. 9th,20% off,same warr. as BB.
Looks good Woody,
I used the GC2 BB variant because I could get at all of the wiring on all batteries even with the slide truss on out 2001.Easier to secure as well. The 6 GC2s were very attractively priced which helped.
I cut out most of FRP sheet covering the truss for easier access and painted it all to look nice.
The switch is for the battery heaters and a digital voltmeter too.
What was the source for your "$10 per battery battery heaters"?
Battery heaters are designed for snow mobile or motorcycle hand grips. Come with wiring, heat shrink tubing to mount them on the handle bars and a high/off/low switch. $5.77 each for six sets now. I got an extra set. They seem to be working fine, power use is consistent, they were on for more than a month before we headed south. They attach to the batteries with an adhesive backed foil faced foam pad. The photo is on the bench set up where I was measuring temperatures. Final wiring has disconnects in the wiring for each battery and a common set of controls for all of them. I can measure power use in watts. Any significant change would tell me if a heater is not working. These easily keep battery temperatures measured at any of three terminal sensors 40° or more above ambient.
Electric Motorcycle E-Bike Heated Hand Grips Handle Heater Warmer Suzuki... (https://www.ebay.com/itm/173849777397?ViewItem=&item=173849777397)
We just finished 52 hours disconnected from all external power other than solar. We are in TX. One day was very cloudy, one day was sunny. We are running everything in the coach including the residential refrigerator using only our 600 amp hrs of Battle Born batteries. At 52 hours we hit 50% SOC. Pretty cool. I plugged in and turned on the small 40 amp charger. It is going to rain all day Tuesday.
In your picture in reply #31, I see 3 batteries. Are the other 3 behind these three?