Hi there,
We can't seem to resolve this sensor issue. Cummins OEM They said they did not add it. Foretravel also says they didn't add it. Ronnie is checking with engineering to see if there's a way we can manage it through software. We have already tried replacing it with a new one and we're getting the same red Engine S error on the dash.
Any ideas?
Have they said what type of sensor it is?
ETA a Google on one of the numbers (5462277) indicates it's a crankcase pressure sensor. What codes is it throwing?
Which engine do you have?
Found a thread on RV.net
https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/26969800.cfm
Look at the crankcase breather filter or housing
It was a fault code 296 Auxiliary input - high pressure sensor number one. We have Cummings Diesel 400 ISL
We will thank you!
Other things I'm finding for high crankcase pressure (although not with a stop engine light, just a check engine one) are excessive blow by. There was possibly a Cummins service bulletin related to valve seals or guides. I'm still digging to see what years....
Wasn't there a service bulletin to add the Hi Crankcase pressure sender signaling driver of imminent engine failure with wrist pin-pistons issues? Seems I read about that on the SOB Monaco ISL mid-2000? was a Cummins Service Bulletin and seemed was just a patch to the problem rather than repair. Emergency vehicles received the real repair.
Scott
Found this
but I cannot find any online info on "Troubleshooting Fault Code t05-296" that the document refers to. Must be a Cummins QuikServe or some other service document.
Initial thoughts are given a sensor replacement produced exactly the same fault code, either the pressure is indeed out of spec or the ECM continues to interpret the signal as being out of spec.
Hazarding a guess, the troubleshooting tree might include (but definitely not be limited to) having the tech measure actual voltage on the ECM pin (or pull it from a diagnostic readout) and comparing to a chart to see what the sensor is actually reporting vs. what the ECM thinks it sees.
This is an easy fix. Chip it. Remove the input or set it permanently off.
Of course you might want to check if there really is too much pressure in the crank case first.
You know, the sophisticated stuff depending on your oil fill location and angle, use the cap, a tennis ball or a piece of paper to see if there really is lots of blow-by.
There was a while back where the pin on the ecm was corroded, loose or disconnected and was giving someone fits. I think they unplugged and plugged in the harness to the ecm and it fixed his problem.
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2007/RCDNN-07E033-6307.pdf
So Cummins told the Associate Administrator for Enforcement at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration,
"6. Remedy program. Cummins will recalibrate the engine control module. Additionally, Cummins will enhance the Engine Protection System enabling it to provide early detection of the failure mode and avoid more serious engine damage and resultant safety hazard. This will involve installation of a new valve cover with a crankcase pressure sensor. Prior to failure, the new crankcase pressure sensor will provide a signal to the dash with a red light. A red lamp gives an indication to the driver to stop the engine as soon as it can safely be done The campaign will be completed without charge to engine owners. Cummins notes and emphasizes that all covered vehicles involved in the campaign were sold with a 5- year or 100,000 mile warranty and are estimated to have extensive warranty coverage remaining on these engines to cover future repairs as needed."
Ain't that special! If Kath and Mike Reinert's engine is indeed toast, now is the time to talk to a good lawyer. It never hurts to ask.
Art
I am trying to understand how a wrist pin design or manufacturing defect would be mitigated by installing an additional sensor. Are they saying that a sloppy wrist pin on one or more pistons will cause wear allowing combustion gasses to escape into the crankcase, and that this sensor will sense the increased pressure allowing the driver to safely come to a stop so that their rig can be towed? Hardly a fix for a flaw which will result in a very expensive rebuild! Foretravel apparently used only 9 of the affected engines. What did Cummins do to make the problem go away for engines of a later build number than those in the affected range? I wonder if this defect had anything to do with EGR requirements added around that time :o
Don
Wrist pin problems were on 2005-2006 engines.
It doesn't cure the root problem artfully described as a manufacturing defect. This is all guess work but a "manufacturing defect" could be anything from a too sharp corner acting as a stress riser to a too tight wrist pin. Either one will cause the piston or connecting rod to fail catastrophically.
In the automotive industry the company that produced the defective component is on the hook for the recall. I don't know anything about boutique truck engines.
Don as I have read this failure is caused by a tight wrist pin damaging piston to the point of failure with the connecting rod exiting the engine block causing massive oil loss and possible fire. I have no first hand information other than one SOB I was looking at that was outside of the serial number group. Also recall that there were failures outside that group and warrantee was difficult or impossible. If involved myself I would be proactive for myself and conduct a in frame tear down to examine for damage and repair, rebuild as necessary. It would not be a deal breaker for me prior to having a thrown rod. I would think that once the piston is damaged the blow by would present itself prior to compleat failure. Hence the pressure sensor. This is a great example of how good records can take the guess work out of a problem, or create it.
"IMO" Scott
So with the help of this forum and Scott's research it appears we may be impacted with this engine issue. We know that Foretravel was identified to have 9. Our engine year is 2005 and serial number is 46584387 which seems to fall within the parameters and our odometer is at 82k. Monday we will follow up with Foretravel and Cummings. Our initial thoughts are to have it towed to Atlanta Cummings for service. We are closer to Savannah but we think Atlanta is better since their Southern Corp headquarters are located there and the reviews are better. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated...
"All ISL CM850 engines in the subject population are covered by this recall. The ISL CM850 recreational vehicle ESNs eligible for this campaign range from 46543077 to 46603939. A complete listing of the subject populations by vehicle manufacturer is attached in Appendix A.
2. Identification of the item: Connecting Rod Engine Make: Cummins Model: ISL CM850 Part Number: 3971 393 Function: Transmit energy from the piston to the crankshaft"
Engines in FT's can be a year or more earlier than the coach "model year"
There are 2013 IH's out there with the "last buy" 2010 "Red Eggshell" ISX ....
Quote; Cummins notes and emphasizes that all covered vehicles involved in the campaign were sold with a 5- year or 100,000 mile warranty and are estimated to have extensive warranty coverage remaining on these engines to cover future repairs as needed.
I fear that they will seek the Five year coverage has been completed. I the unknowing would think that (or) would include any miles in the five years or up to 100k miles regardless of time. Trucks could put many miles in five years and coaches could be considered at the end of there life at 100k. (Not my view, just getting broken in) Much better to resolve prior to failure if possible. Looks to me that it actually did what they intended as a patch and they knowing (it was only a patch) would resolve it. I really hope they take care of it either way. I guarantee if it was mine it would have 101k on it.
Scott
Have you VERIFIED excessive blow-by which could indicate a scored cylinder or bad piston caused by seized piston ring (i.e. the subject of this discussion)?
Most failures of this kind occurred very early in an engine's life. Unusual for one get to mileage normal for even RV use times 13 years and THEN fail.
BTW, how many miles on it?
We will let everyone know how it goes. We have only recently begun our education in Diesel engines and learning all the terms and conditions on the fly. We will see if Stephens can confirm the "blow by" The mobile mechanic that we saw first also mentioned that it could be blow-by.
Mike, the term is blow-by as in combustion gasses that low by the piston rings, or in some cases through the piston.
IF everything should all go south on you, I wouldn't threaten to sue, but I would talk to an attorney and ask him to talk ever so politely to Cummins.
FWIW A long time ago living in our garden style condominium, we had some very nice neighbors, and when they finally married he learned that she had a "Dime Mortgage." He asked my thoughts on the matter and even though the enrollment period had ended I suggested that he give the law firm a call, play dumb and tell them he just learned about the matter, something that is not a lie. Later on I asked how things went and I learned that they were in luck and were included in the settlement.
It's ancient history but you can begin your reading here: https://www.nytimes.com/1994/12/16/business/us-fraud-inquiry-into-dime-s-mortgages.html
All I'm trying to say is maybe Cummins will step up and do the right thing for you.
All diesels have a significant amount of blowby. It's the nature of the beast as the high compression ratio (15-1 up to 23-1) forces gases past the rings. Before you assign blame on faulty piston pins, you should put a blowby tester on the engine to make sure it is greater than what is normal for your engine.
If it is, the cause may be that the piston rings are not sealing as they should be. This can be caused by cylinder bore wear from poor maintenance by the PO. Blowby will introduce particulates and unburned diesel into the crankcase causing acids to be formed. They may reduce the oils ability to lubricate the cylinder walls resulting in enough wear that the piston rings can no longer seal as they should. The cure here is expensive.
But there is an excellent possibility that the problem lies elsewhere. The bore may not be worn but the rings just stuck. Rings may be stuck for a variety of reasons. Turbo wear may cause aluminum dust to stick a ring. Detroit blowers have been known for the vanes of the impellers to slightly touch in the case of lack of oil changes with the aluminum dust finding its way to the piston rings. Varnishes and carbon may also be formed caused by the owner with the prolonged idle mindset. No matter how many times all the engine manufactures put out bulletins to try and discourage this practice, it seems to fall on deaf ears.
But as the varnish/carbon is formed and caused the rings to lose their sealing power, the process may be chemically reversed. First, make sure the blowby is excessive and if it is, investigate alternative solutions to an expensive rebuild. It's been years since I did this kind of work but it was effective then for both the injection (gasoline cars) and diesels for excessive blowby. Good page to start looking: blowby fix - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=blowby+fix)
Link to building a $2 blowby tester for a 5.9 Cummins: Checking Blowby - Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum (https://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/94-98-engine/232657-checking-blowby.html)
So, check how bad the blowby is and don't idle your engine for more than about 5 minutes.
Pierce
Any Update?
Kath and Mike, sorry about your issue. Around the time of your motor another mfg, Detroit Diesel, owned by Mbz, revealed in their research, 70 % of the error codes of all mfgs, were leaving truckers stranded and were from false codes. This to the point they started putting gps communications in their equipment sold to truckers and the rv industry to at least disable the disabling code if they thought it prudent to enable a trucker to go on to the next service center. This system let them check on parts availability, shipping of necessary parts, coordinating repair with their route.
One of my customers with Monaco and Navistar, under warranty, had Navistar spend over $50k, trying to fix an error message that was stranding him and his family, every time he went over 15 miles away from home. After replacing the engine, Navstar 10, transmission, and coach wiring harness, found a bad ground, that went to the harness, that went the length of the 36' Diplomat.
I look forward to you getting this resolved, as I know you and others are too.
Maybe we are the ones mentioned in earlier post re ecm pins as we had a bad an incident with a couple of ecm pins that were causing the coach to either stop on its own or cause a run away. Cummins in Phoenix tried all fixes but it turned out to be this and has been fine now for 3years. Those pins have on only 5 volts on average so can easily go out of wack.
Maybe or maybe not be your problem but they can cause problems.
JohnH
Hi All,
Thank you again for all your time and valued input. We were towed to Cummins in Savannah today. We expect our Blackstone Oil report tomorrow and Cummins initial inspection. So the process begins - we will keep you posted on the findings and resolution.
See ya down the road!
Kath & Mike
Read through, forgot where we started, think about a 2007 ISL. 400?
At some point close to there the breather was replaced with a Re-generation system, the 1st key to this system a "filter" sits on top of the "rear" to us, valve cover, if it is "clogged" a new one is needed, maybe 35.00 maybe if this engine has same that could fix your problem.
Again i remember SSS [stuff] that is strange to my new life with a 99 295.
This is a sad memory from a Newmar with the 8.9.
Lost more on that POS than I have in the current, & tow car & say 2 yrs travel.
JUST A THOUGHT, agree not time to change the rest pins??
Lynn and I want to send our heartfelt condolences on your loss. I'd buy a lottery ticket every week if 3.8% of the tickets were winners.
Have you considered purchasing an early pre-computer U225? You could use it for a guest house when the Nimbus is running.
Art & Lynn
I'm actually hopefull that Cummins will say that they operated there coach within the limits of the installed patch to alert of imminent damage. Shut it down and as one of the unlucky 3.8 percent or possibly lucky and will repair there defective engine. Because this was what the patch was intended to actually do. Costs a lot less to repair than replace if the rod is laying on the street. I fear they will see it differently.
Scott.
As am I DSD, but sometimes it takes a little nudge in the right direction before a corporation will do the "right" thing. I think I'm a little more cynical than you are, but as always, plan for the worst and hope for the best.
Although I would like to see a U225 used as a Toad by one of the big rig owners. Look at it, torsion bar suspension so the "key" doesn't need to be left on, and they already have air brakes so it's a simple extension of air lines from the tow vehicle.
Imagination is something that needs to be exercised regularly.
Certainly may affect my choice if ordering new if they proudly stand behind there outstanding product. Really.
Scott
Hi All,
Cummins located the issue. We had water build up where the air filter lies - apparently the holes became plugged and as a result - water was sucked into the engine. Their engineers reviewed the most recent oil analysis and determined that all findings were within normal wear.
How fortuitous for us - with the help of this forum to find out we have one of the recalled engines then to take it to Cummins to be assured that the piston pin is not the current issue and there are processes in place with Cummins should it ever become an issue; "Your engine is in great shape." A baseline with Cummins has begun should we have any issues in the future.
We had them change the oil and do some work on the remote stop on our generator.
Cummins in Savannah has an outstanding shop - we are working with Kevin Fox the service manager and Leslie the lead tech. Now is the time to take your coach for any servicing needs - theses places are almost ghost towns due to Covid-19's impact.
In the mean time we rented an airbnb in Savannah for two weeks and are enjoying the house we are in (17 months on the road in our coach.) Thank you again for all the input and help.
See ya down the road!
That is outstanding news. I'm really glad to hear.
Scott
Plan for the worst, and hope for the best. Congratulations on your good luck.
And before someone else's gets to this, there are posts on this forum regarding the water incursion issue.
Art & Lynn
I just did a quick search on water incursion issue and I did not receive any hits. I also have the ISL engine and would like a little more information on the problem and how it happened. What did you have to do to correct the problem?
Thanks and if I messed up the search feature sorry.
I remember a discussion on the air filter getting wet and coming apart. Might be a good time to change the air filter
So glad not major engine failure.
Certainly change the filter if it ever got wet.
BUT, also determine what caused it to get wet and fashion a means of preventing it from getting wet again.
A wet filter element will fall apart and allow the engine to be DUSTED. An expensive overhaul follows shortly. Yes, engines are very picky about eating dust.
I didn't do anything because "I", ducking the board eraser, "we" own a U225.
But Google also has indexed the Forum and brought up this:
Possible water in air filter? (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=30332.0)
AIr Filter Failure Warning! Don't get Dusted! (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=25391.0)
Possible water in air filter? (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=30332.0)
Water in U270 airfilter canister (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=37860.0)
Great news about the filter. Did you check your restriction gauge? Ours had reached the maximum the gauge indicates. Any coach with a behind the rear tires air intake is a prime candidate for sucking anything the rear tires throw up including twigs, leaves, water, etc. Our had partially collapsed but not far enough to allow dirt in. See photos in old post. I replaced it with a Donaldson. Their construction is MUCH better.
Pierce