Foretravel Owners' Forum

EDIT - fixed. Read last post for details.  Thanks all!!!!

VERY low water pressure and flow at shower head, kitchen sink, bath sink.

We have wintered in Texas in multiple Thousand Trails parks, with what seems to be hard water.

We always filter all incoming water both shore and to tank at 1 micron (oversized filter).  We do always have good flow even with a one micron filter (over sized water filter).  We do not have and have not used a water softener - but previous owner did. We have owned this coach since November 2016.

Troubleshooting so far:
Removed incoming water filter - same
Removed outside water pressure regulator - same
Shut off shore water - ran on pump from tank - same
At water manifold, rotated shut off valves on manifold several times, rotated easily - same flow and pressure inside coach

Pulled filter screens at kitchen sink and bath sink - both screens full of hard water deposits. Cleaned and re-installed - still low flow and pressure.  Soaked shower head in vinegar.  Got some hard water deposits out. 

This is not sediment/sand in the system as incoming water has always been filtered.  It has to be hard water deposits. 

Since it occurs with both shore water and with onboard water pump - it "should" not be the back flow preventer on incoming shore water.

We only use the on board tank and water pump about every 2 weeks to refresh the on board water tank.  Water pump filter screen is clean with no deposits.  (we normally run on shore water)

I was going to start disassembling pieces parts in the water bay by the water manifold to check for blockages - but I currently have a full tank of on board water I will need to use and/or drain first.

Local grocery store was out of vinegar on last shopping trip - will try again tomorrow in case I need it to help remove deposits.  Will buy several gallons if available. (Whitney Texas right now until 2 April).

Suggestions on where to start in the water bay on passenger side?  Any screens between shore water AND water pump before the water manifold? (don't think problem is after the manifold since low flow is at multiple points).

 I am pretty sure I have a significant hard water debris blockage somewhere before the water manifold but after both shore water and water pump.  And I doubt vinegar bath alone (by intaking it via water pump) will be able to dissolve it all.

We are trying very hard to avoid campground restrooms and showers  right now with the virus.

Any difference between all hot and all cold water?

There is some info on the forum about the AquaHot coils developing hard water deposits - vinegar being the answer there.

Same flow both hot and cold.

Any dollar stores near you?  They usually have vinegar.

I'll check tomorrow.  I'm sure I can find some somewhere.  I still "think" I will have to do some disassembly to attack deposits directly - this is REALLY low flow.

Added note: I also made sure water fill switch is off and cycled it a couple of times. 

If the problem is post-pump, you can use a winterizing hose set-up to suck vinegar into the water lines for all the taps (run each until you smell vinegar.  Thinking it was about 5 gallons to winterize that coach including the Splendide, so 5 gallons of vinegar - run it through each tap hot and cold (and the TurboTurd).  Let it sit over night.  You can put the toilet into "low refill" mode with the toggle switch on the circuit board if needed.

Another thought, albeit a very remote possibility.  If the fill valve seat is not making good contact or if the solenoid is not working properly and not closing the fill valve it could short circuit the water flow.  There is both a solenoid on that fill valve (the switches operate it) and a manual control (the cross-knobbed handle on the top of the fill valve itself.  Can you tighten it down gently and see if the flow in the coach improves?

 

Since the low flow is at every tap, hot and cold, on-board water or city, the restriction should most likely be from the Tee where the pump discharge and tank fill valve meet, and the Tee where that supply line splits to the Cold side of the distribution manifold and the Aqua Hot. If the pump doesn't cycle with no water demand, you can rule-out a leaking tank fill valve. I recently went through our pump/tank fill plumbing and discovered a slight leak in the fill valve, and leaky inlet valves on the pump.

Edit: Possible places to look for blockage might be at the PEX fittings where the transition in plumbing ID might be a place for loosened pieces of deposits, or an old valve, pump, or washer part, might get hung-up.

Greg

I've been outside until I just lost light (and it just started raining). I was tracing water lines and checking what is what.  And I also "suspect" the same valve Michelle pictured.  (I even just took photos a few minutes ago to ask about when I came in).

I did screw down the manual part, then back up, but I did not try flow with it screwed down.  And now it is raining pretty good.

The pump does not cycle with no water demand.  Back at it tomorrow in daylight if no rain.  And vinegar treatment at some point even if I resolve it directly.

Just a thought, possibly the fill valve has a little bit if trash in it causing it not to close completely when off.

Jim

2002 U320

Pics of where I was checking.  I did unscrew 2 connections on the water manifold - no buildup at all.  And I have cycled the water fill switch inside the coach a couple of times.


Now raining hard and some hail so no go tonight (at least right away)

That's what I thought as well - and why I screwed it down and back up. Unfortunately I did not think to try it while I had it screwed down.

Looking at the disassembly, I'm thinking the solenoid operates a piston to shut the fill flow similar to how an HWH plunger works.  The cross-handle closes off the flow completely.  They appear to operate separately.


The fill valve is actually a sprinkler system control valve.  It's not a unique RV part.  The tough thing is it's a 12Vdc solenoid-operated one and most now are 24Vdc so there isn't a drop-in replacement should you need it.  You'd need to do a solenoid transplant.

Great photos. I assume I will need to empty fresh water tank, water pump off, city water off to remove and disassemble?  Edit: and does Foretravel no longer have stock?

Oy - I can't remember...  Let me see if I can find the old post from when we replaced that valve.  FOT might have stock, but you'd have to ask them.  Of course, if you can get the valve out you might be able to R&R it just with a little cleaning.

In some models there is a shut-off valve ahead of the solenoid/fill valve.
Jim

2002 U320

BTW, here are the specs on that valve

Spartan Scientific

PN 4600-01-8212
3/4" NPT / 2-2NC
25MM / 150PSI
12VDC / 10Watts
NITRILE

Went out in the rain and manually screwed down the valve.

No improvement. Still worth dis assembling to look for debris?  (There could be hard water deposits in it).

Highly doubtful that it's the problem then  :( 

Was it a fairly sudden change in flow or a gradual one? 

It's been getting slower flow over the past week.  Pretty good mineral deposits on the faucet screens when I cleaned them today - so probably a buildup somewhere between shore water/water pump and water manifold (with lesser chance in the water manifold).

If it is a manual valve, depending on its internal design, it could be coming apart (older screw and washer style design). So when you tightened it down did if have a regular sill-cock "harder" stop when it seated/off or a somewhat softer feel? If it is coming apart inside it might feel different than usual and not be sealing as it should - hence leaking water pump pressure.
Jim

Moved to Tech Talk for better technical assistance visibility

The PEX should not have any build up in those lines, but every place that has a copper fitting, I would check those for sure for calcium build up.  Over time, that can completely close off an opening to reduce the flow.

Tomorrow depending on rain I'll get back to it.  If it is raining I will go on vinegar search.

Any chance it could be in the pump itself?

I opened a drain valve (on the output side of the pump) with the pump on, and volume was great out the drain valve.  So I need to look past that point.

Plus flow is low inside the coach on shore water with pump off.  I don't think shore water passes through the pump?  (Or does it? I'll check tomorrow).

Resolved.

Some last night and some this morning, I had cleaned the screens on the output side of the bath sink faucet head, and on the kitchen sink faucet head, finding many mineral deposits.

 I had removed the faucet head on the kitchen sink and cleaned the inside where the hose attaches (input side) .  I had removed the shower head and soaked it in vinegar, and removed deposits on the input side, and scrubbed the output side of the shower head. 

I just did all that again - and all of them once again had heavy mineral deposits.  Freshly cleaned for the second time in less than 24 hours,  water flow at both sinks and shower head are restored again.

My theory is a bunch of mineral deposits were indeed in the basement water system, somewhere between the check valve and the faucets/shower head,  blocking flow.  If so, much of it has  now broken loose,  working their way out.  I might have broken it loose by turning the water manifold valves on and off, or the fill check valve manual  shutoff on and off twice.

I will clean these faucets and shower head daily until deposits stop showing up.  And sometime in the near future, I will acquire 5 gallons of vinegar, use the input side of the water pump, and pump vinegar to every faucet, toilet, and the washer lines, both hot and cold, and let it soak a few hours.

Based on what I am seeing, I bet a great deal of mineral deposits will come out the lines after vinegar soaking.

  I am a bit embarrassed that it was clogged again at the faucet heads, and that it was the cause of low flow even after cleaning once. It never occurred to me it could plug up again in less than 24 hours, since we always use a filter at the spigot.

Thank you all for the help and advice.  Once I vinegar soak I will update this thread.  It may be a while based on where we are, and we are trying hard to socially isolate due to the virus right now.  Thankfully, we can now still avoid the campground restrooms and showers (hard surfaces in them).

Any type of water heater is another place that mineral deposits can accumulate.  When I cleaned out our OEM Atwood propane water heater, I was surprised at how much "stuff" came out.  No telling how long it had been since the last cleaning...if ever.  The little CAMCO plastic tube water hose clean-out device was a big help in removing the loose minerals.

Those mineral deposits are coming from the hot water side.  With the Aqua Hot system off and cold, the coach hooked up to city water, open the low point hot water valve.  I put a large pan under the drain to recycle the water in the garden and placed a screen under the drain to catch any debris and out came some sand looking grit and mineral deposits. I kept doing this till it came out clean.  I was surprised on the amount of garbage that came out.  For now no more garbage in the faucet screens. The flushing works better with the city water connection because of the constant water pressure.  I would like to put vinegar in the Aqua Hot system hot water line but I haven't figured it out how to do that yet.

John M

I remove the faucet screens every fall before putting the coach in storage. Come spring I flush the lines.
Our hot water was getting cloudy and had an odor (this about four years ago) so I filled the water heater & all the lines with 5% vinegar and then turned on the water heater for 24 hours. Amazing how clean the water has been since.

See my post above, but just "winterize" the closest hot tap (by plumbing length) to the AquaHot with vinegar. 

Any suggestions on full strength vinegar versus diluted to some degree with distilled or tap water to clean deposits out of water lines?

When I clean our electric tea kettle of deposits, 50 percent tap water to 50 percent vinegar cleans it in two boil cycles.

I drink it full strength, no reason not to do the same in your water system or tea kettle.

There are water softeners for Rv. You hook it up inline as you are filling. You can use other then salt. Potassium to soften. That takes the worry of salt out of the operation.

Yeah... full strength, and don't be in too big of a hurry to rinse the vinegar out... 6 hours of soaking wouldn't be too long. When you rinse, remove the aerator/head, do one fixture at a time for maximum flow, and don't shut off the fixture until the water runs clear. Closing some valves when there's chucks of crud flowing will tear-up the seals/o-rings.

Great to hear you found the problem ^.^d

How about the use of a boiler descale solution.  Is that too strong for our system?
John M.

Approved for potable water systems?

Still getting debris out at the faucet heads (on hot water side).  Must be a bunch breaking loose at once.

 I'll vinegar wash sometime fairly soon.

On a positive note - if it's breaking loose without intervention, it won't take you as long to descale the rest of the system  ;)

You need to let the vinegar soak for 24 hours, not just a couple hours.  If you add it while leaving a hot water faucet open until you smell and taste vinegar, you will have filled the Aqua-Hot with the vinegar solution.  You should regularly open the hot water drain until the water runs clear.

Full timing, so 24 hours would be tough.  I can do 12 - 16  hours,  twice if need be -  a week or two apart.  We are avoiding campground showers etc right now.  We are really serious about social distancing and avoiding public area hard surfaces.

Probably do first batch next week after getting vinegar and 3 - 4 foot of hose for the input side of the water pump.

Check the spares/parts that came with the coach for the hose we used for that.

Whoaaaaa

That is NOT atypical for a water heater that has not been serviced in a couple of years.

And, I use the "cheap fix"-- 5' of cheap clear vinyl hose from any hardware store.  Fill water tank, turn off pump, open faucet to depressurize, remove drain plug, insert hose, start siphon and "vacuum" the bottom of the tank.  Repeat until no minerals come out.

Yes, this is for a propane water heater,

Vinegar flush fresh water system:
Over a period of time I was able to acquire 4 gallons of white vinegar. (it was in short supply due to corona virus supply chain issues).

Symptoms before flush:  Kitchen sink faucet, bath faucet, shower head clogging quickly with mineral hard water deposits.  Hot water low point drain on passenger side by water manifold running slow, low point drain on drivers side at Aqua Hot running normally.

 I did not know how many gallons of vinegar I needed, so acquired 4 gallons (when I was actually searching for 5 gallons).

First on the under kitchen sink water filter, I turned the valve off to ensure no vinegar would reach the filter.  I had the AH off for about 1.5 hours prior (both electric and diesel)

In the basement, I  shut off the valve next to the fresh water tank that feeds to the input side of  the 12 volt water pump. I removed the hose on the input side of the water pump, and attached 3 feet of 1/2" hose, putting the other end into the first gallon of vinegar.  Turned on water pump, opened hot water side of outside faucet in the dump bay. The pump successfully pulled vinegar.  By second gallon pure vinegar was flowing out the outside faucet and both low point hot water drains.

With gallons 3 and 4, I ran vinegar to  cold water drain points both sides,  cold water outside faucet,  hot water side kitchen sink (faucet head removed), hot water side bath sink (screen removed) hot water side shower hose (shower head removed).

At  hot water drain points and the faucets, blue colored vinegar was flowing out. I "assume" this is a chemical reaction of vinegar to copper in the AquaHot.  That blue vinegar stains, so keep that in mind.

With vinegar remaining, ran vinegar to hot water side washer.  Ran vinegar to cold water side kitchen, bath, and shower.  Vinegar in the 4th gallon was nearly gone, got small amount to toilet, and "maybe" a tiny amount to cold side washer.  Turned on AquaHot both electric and diesel, left it on for the duration of cleaning.

Left vinegar in cold side faucets, cold drain points, cold side washer for 2 hours and flushed it out with fresh water.  No debris from faucets.

Left vinegar in hot side for 18 hours.  Flushed all points (starting with low point drains)  with fresh water.  Lot's of blue vinegar and mineral deposits flushed out.  Flushed all points (faucets etc).  Water volume to all greatly increased. Water volume to low point hot water drain on water manifold side greatly improved.

One piece I had missed was the backflow preventer on the shower. Removed it to get mineral deposits out.

Lessons learned:  2 gallons is enough to do only the AH to outside faucet hot side, and both low point drains.  4 gallons is enough to run vinegar to hot AND cold, all faucets and low point drains.  A 5th gallon would be enough to run vinegar to washer hot/cold, and toilet, with enough left to soak faucet screens and shower head etc.

I will probably now vinegar wash the AH to outside low point drains and outside faucet yearly.  Probably add the hot water side to indoor faucets as well.

Not sure any need to do the cold water side as well, but vinegar is pretty inexpensive overall.

Key words for future search: acid wash vinegar flush AquaHot

Vinegar washing the cold side is unnecessary.  Deposits are in the hot side.

Reading this post interests me as I too have lower pressure on the shower while using the tank and shore water. Listening to the pump while on tank water only it cycles off and on constantly while showering. I would think while the shower is running it would stay running. Is this correct?  The pump is a shurflo 4008. I am currently out in the boonies and to do a complete vinegar flush would not work properly. Any suggestions??

You probably have an expansion tank. What you describe sounds normal.

Water pressure while connected and using shore water would vary with the pressure coming out of the faucet.

Water pressure using the tanks and pump should be pretty constant. It will cycle on and off while using the water until the expansion tank fills up.

Thanks. Yes we do have an expansion tank. Good to know!

Checking the expansion tank is EASY.

It has a valve just like your car tires.

Release pressure on the pressure water system:  Shore water OFF.  Pump OFF.  Open a faucet and bleed off water pressure.

Unscrew the cover on the tank end. Start by pushing in on the valve for just an instant.  If water comes out-- it is toast (rubber bladder perforated) and needs to be replaced.  If air comes out, put your tire gauge on it.  PSI should be your pump CUT-IN PSI less 2 PSI.  So for the common pump with 25 PSI cut-in PSI, it should be 23 PSI.  If lower, I just use a regular bicycle pump to inflate it.  If using coach air system PSI, be VERY careful-- volume is small.

With my old shower head, the pump would cycle while showering.  This resulted in a shower stream that was low-high-low-high, etc, as the pump ran and built pressure, then pressure dropped and the pump ran again, etc.  No accumulator in my system.  With a new, higher flowing shower head (restrictor removed), the pump now runs continuously when showering and pressure is constant.

With Dick having low water shower head flow on city water & water pump, the issue is not the pump. Remove shower head to see if water flows ok. If this is a long-time problem there could be an original water restrictor in the shower head. If shower head is clogged, soak it in vinegar may help.

How is water flow at bath & kitchen sinks?

Shurflo 4008 is also our pump and is not likely the problem, and only cycling because of shower's low flow.