Happy Travels All!
I recently purchased a 1989 Grand Villa Coach. There is delamination under the windows. The rig was stored in an airplane hanger until 4 months before I purchased it. When I did the inspection I was aware of the delamination and thoroughly checked the rig..My question is if I have sealed all the windows and seams and am sure no water or moisture is coming in is it safe to drive the rig until June when I can do the repairs? Will I damage it more by driving? I know on the cheap motor homes it's usually soft behind the delamination but when I press on the 'warp' the surface behind it doesnt move at all...very solid. Any words of wisdom to share?
How about some photos? Easier to have an opinion then.
Pierce
June isn't far off and since you're going to repair it then, I say, "Cleared for takeoff."
I agree. You need to post some photos. What you think is delamination may not be.
But the fiberglass on these coaches is relatively thick I think comparably. About an eighth of an inch maybe.I cut part out to install a keypad for the new door locking system. That's what it seemed. Underneath it is a foam. And then another layer of fiberglass I think. Didn't look at the inside part. And then there's plywood panels covered with either wallpaper vinyl backed or wood with veneer.
As far as repair you might have to grind down all the fiberglass to the foam and re-glass it. But the pictures will tell a story. We all like pictures. We also like signature. In your signature fill in what your coat you have and what model. It helps when you ask questions. Good luck.
Unless the fiberglass is cut away what is a picture of a delam blister going to tell you?
Do a tap test. Take a quarter and tap on and near the delamination. Listen to the tone. If it has the same tone it may be warped, but not delaminates. If it sounds solid it probly would live it entire life happily. If it's dead sounding you have a delamination, but if the window is secure and you reduce your max speed to under say Eighty you probably will be fine. If we come across delamination in honeycomb materials at work generally they can be continued in service with regular reinspections for sometimes months. Also sometimes the engineers require covering with aluminum tape to prevent moisture from entering and causing more damage do to repeated freeze cycles. I wouldn't myself worry till the windows start moving. IMO.
Scott
I had a couple places that started to delaminate. I drilled a hole on the inside of one compartment and injected some resin and then wedged a post from a car to the outside of the compartment. The other one just required pushing on the outside after drilling a hole and again, injecting resin. A photo might give an idea the easiest way to fix it perhaps without even a shop.
Pierce
Looking back I think the OP's question was related to whether he could drive the coach, not how to fix the delam.
Anxiously awaiting photos.
Been trying to upload but the site keeps crashing.
It does seem to act more like warping. It's much more visible late in the day after the sun has been on it. The only thing I am worried about is the bottom of the panel popping out of the trim.
Here are a few pics.
1 more
The wave/warped behind wheel? That's the symptom to structure moving. If I'm seeing picture correct. Put a straight edge alongside to give reference. Circle damage with grease pen.
Scott
That does look suspicious. Take a look at the rear bulkhead. The "delamination" is right above where the big angle iron bolts to the middle struction. You need to make sure the bulkhead is secure before driving. Take a photo underneath of the bulkhead and big angle iron. One member had it fail while underway.
Do all of your compartment doors open and close correctly?
Pierce
have you already purchased this vehicle? search for Acoutsticarts bulkhead repair thread on the forum
If it worsens when the sun is on it, most likely delam. JMO.
Yup, post a picture of the rear bulkhead. We can then help you determine if this is structural or a "mostly" cosmetic delam of the side wall.
Where do I find this to.take the picture. In front of wheels or behind. How do I get at it.
BULKHEADS: In front of the rear wheels, behind the front wheels.
You are looking up from the ground. For the rear, the very back of the white fiberglass underbody. The bolts come forward through the 1/4" angle and into the box beam that is above that white fiberglass that you see.
Is.this it?
2
There is next to zero rust on this rig. Everything I have encountered is visual...and I figured if it's not structural I can fix it...its my new project.
2nd picture is of the bulkhead. Looks like you might have an issue with the way the fiberglass skin is wrinkled.
Yup picture #2 is the bulkhead. Verify that wrinkled FG on the same side with the concave side= driver's side. Spills in the wet bay are a common source of water into the bulkhead leading to RUST!
So post a picture of the drop down door area of the wet bay as well.
IF, repeat IF you have safety stands in place and/or you drive up on 2X 12's so you have room below if an air bag failed, put a torque wrench on the Rolock bolts. 15 ft- pounds is enough to tell if they are good. You will find they either unscrew with well less than that torque or that they hold. If they don't hold, you will find that the bolt is broken 4 threads or so in-- where the bolt goes into the first side of the box beam.
If broken, the "fix" isn't too difficult or expensive. Plenty of writeups going back more than a decade on this. Here is one from 11 years ago: Bulkhead Repair-- A Comprehensive Look (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=8645.0)
We need a photo of the other side of your second photo and as much of the bottom skin distortion as possible. The Roloks on this side look OK with only a small separation under the second fastener. So, initially, I would say the problem lies just where your photo flash cannot reach.
The damage could be in the tubing forward of the driver's side bulkhead angle iron. This would be around the wet bay and could be caused by a leak. So send photos of that area. I suspect the bottom white Glas area may have to be removed to see the extent of the problem in that area. Do your compartment doors have even space between them back there?
Pierce
I.dont see anything wrong.
This looks a little suspicious tho
Something "ain't rite". You should be seeing bolt HEADS with the bolt going forward through that 1/4" angle. Someone has been in there doing work-- probably not good work.
And, definitely the next picture of the bottom shows what is likely major issues.
You will need to pull that FG down to determine the extent of the damage.
You didn't see that before buying it??
What do you mean forward?
I mean in the picture immediately above you should see bolt HEADS going through the 1/4" angle. They self-tap into the two walls of the box beam forward (inside that white FG sandwich formed by the under side of the coach and the floor of the basement (wet bay section in this case).
What you are describing is not a part of nor does it look like it ever was a part of my coach. I have a 1989 Grand Villa Private Coach Cummins/Allison.
When I got underneath the floor guard (yeah...just figured out what FG was) I knocked on it all over and other than a loose side and some flake rust underneath it it was solid and the piece covering it just has some soot between the panels.
Is this a U280/U300 or ORED?
Does this answer that question?
4000 Series
Assume the info on the owners manual matches what is on the plaque outboard of the driver's area.
The numbers indicate a unihome not an ORED. Plus the frame is a unihome.
The outboard air bag in the picture in post #18 confirms it is a Foretravel "chassis". Everything we have been posting is correct/accurate.
Here's the plaque. U300. I guess I will need to have more info. I think if what you are saying is true I would see a hole where that bolt you are talking about is supposed to go. It seems strange to me that someone would go through all the trouble of replacing that whole beam and weld the angle brackets...I have a lot of service paperwork I'll look through but I know the person I got it from and this was his baby until 4 months ago when he bought a new one.
Oops
Wet bay
Here is the other side.
The oem charger appears to still be in the coach. Boiled the batteries dry. 31 year old technology needs updating
Are you talking about the Power Guard? Do you have a recommendation? I think the inverter is also original.
Don't know your coach or your situation. But looking at your underside photos looks to me like you do have a issue there. As Brett has said you should see bolts heads coming out from the bottom. I don't see them there looks like somebody glassed over them. also from one of your pictures looks like there's a bulge in the middle. That shouldn't be there I don't think. Think we should stay on topic on this one not going off with battery chargers etc. His post is about the bulkhead issue and that's what we should stay on topic for.
Remember it's over 30 years old so there's going to be issues. You said that your project now you have one. Join the club we all do. With that said you're in the right place to get the help that you need. If in fact you do have a bulkhead issue you'll find plenty of help here to help you get it done. There are both recent and remote threads on this.
Good luck
Bob
Bolt heads from the bottom of what exactly. And what do you mean 'glassed it over'? He said they should be on the end of the 1/4 inch angle...I dont know what that means...Im not a mechanic.
Another way to tell what may be amiss is to take a roll up 100 foot tape and measure from a front suspension point on each side back to the big angle iron on each side. If the distance is different by an inch or even a little less, that can easily be the reason for the "delamination."
Unfortunately, I think you are in for a structure repair and a few feet of the tubing may have to be replaced. This can be DIY as several members have done. Just requires some space and a welder, etc. See old posts as mentioned earlier.
Pierce
Go back to "REPLY 19"
See the bolt heads. That is how it should look all the way across that 1/4" angle on both front and rear bulkhead. The bolts are special grade 8 self tapping bolts by Rolock.
The 1/4" angle is overdrilled. The bolts tap into the box beam just toward the center of the coach. They are what hold the two ends of the coach to the center structure.
You (or someone else) will be removing the fiberglass bottom of the coach-- looks like it is already loose. You will then examine the box beam structure and replace bad metal. Not cheap, but not major either. Lots of good pictures of what the structure looks like.
Here is one of many, many excellent posts on this on a 1991 U300: Bulkhead Repair (Partial Floor Replacement) (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=31694.msg280564#msg280564)
This is great info. I'm starting to understand after reading other posts.
Where do I look for the separation specifically. I'm not seeing any gaps from underneath in the back. And if there is can I just put steel tubing next to the bad sections and drill new holes or do I have to drop the whole box and make a new frame?
I am in the process of moving into this RV full time. I'm a complete novice but figured when I bought the rig for as cheap as I did there would be some issues. I saw the delamination but since it was only under the windows I thought the window seals just needed replacement and that was indeed true. I'm wondering if I can wait until June to do this repair because I will be in MI and have access to a pole barn (live in FL) but now I'm wondering if it's too dangerous to drive?
Study the link I posted just above. It shows what the structure looks like and what would need to be replaced if rust has rendered it structurally unsound.
Again, pull down the FG bottom until you get to clean, solid box beams. Then we can give you better information.
BTW, where are you located-- there may be someone nearby who can help you evaluate what is wrong and what needs to be done once the box beams are exposed?
Until you open up the bottom to see the condition of the structure, none of us or you will know.
I live on the Nature Coast. Just north of Crystal River in Inglis.
It's a wonder what daylight can help you find. Looks like someone attempted a fix at some point which is why I didn't see any separation last night but as you.can see the side has a gap. Fronts are solid but I have to check the torque. Rear drivers side looks like it was bolted from both sides and filled with sealant.
As Brett noted, you can't know for sure without getting the fiberglass out of the way but it doesn't look from your photos that you have much separation. One telltale is the rear compartment to fender line. When the bulkhead starts to fail and pulls apart you can see it in this line as it will no longer be parallel.
jor
Looks pretty straight to me.
Can't really tell on the left one as it's open.
Yeah I am docked in an inconvenient spot. But it lines up when I close it and doors dont rub on each other.
I would like to just 'watch' it until June or July when I can drive it up to MI where there is a pole barn and welder to use. I would hate to pull the fiberglass and not be able to put it back up without going through a project when I'm just going to tear it all down in a few months.
I do believe most if not all of the delam is from the windows and I have resealed them on the outside until I can pop them out and replace the weather stripping properly. I had already planned on being in MI june and july to do that and fix the delam. Now I can do it all at the same time as long as I know I'm safe driving it.
Now that the pictures of more than just a delam blister have been posted I think it's difficult for anyone to say whether you're rig is safe to drive without seeing it in person. But others may disagree.
So for now, departure clearance cancelled, hold short of the runway.
Am I going to.have enough room without jacking it up.to drop the fiberglass enough to see? I dont have a pad to park it on currently.
Buy and cut some 2X12's sized to allow each side of the rear tire's footprint to be on the boards and drive the rear wheels up on two stacked= just under 4" more ground clearance.
JMHO, the bay door alignment doesn't necessarily indicate an issue with the bulkhead. Mine where out of alignment when I bought it 14 years ago. I have since drilled and bolted the bulkheads and had MOT inspect and do a minor repair On the rear 2 years ago. The only way to know for sure is to open the bottom up and look. The bottom line you need to get the coach where you can repair it.
In addition to putting it on blocks be sure and raise the coach up and put you safety stands in as well.
You are driving the coach up on the boards= under the rear tires.
And a common safety stand, though a 1/2" or so longer than ideal: http://www.harborfreight.com/class-iii-12-in-x-2-in-standard-receiver-tube-69879.html
With a potential "weak rear" (no personal reflection) you will need 4 in the rear-- one inboard of each of the rear air bags.
Here are some pics today. Temp is 65 and cloudy. Musch less noticable on drivers side when the sun isnt out and its cooler. Either that or it's an optical illusion
I am assuming I can place these on some kind of flat piece of board? That link looks like a hitch extension bar? Again, I do not have a pad currently and the rig is parked on a gravel driveway...not level.
No, they are place inboard of the air bags between the upper and lower "H" frames. This, after using the air leveling to raise the rear to its highest position (engine running so you have air pressure).
You could also do a search here on the Foreforum for "safety stands".
If you cut a 8" strip off in front of the angle iron ( only about 1/8" deep), the width of the coach, with a grinder, you should be able to peel the fiberglass off and get a good look. The fiberglass on the underside of the coach serves little purpose other than cosmetic and to protect the insulation. Removing a 8" strip will not effect anything if you leave it off and decide to drive to Michigan. You could buy a sheet of fiberglass at a home improvement store and cut it to fit the 8" gap, screw it in place with some caulking on each end.
From the look of the pictures my guess would be that the box beam(hidden under the fiberglass bottom) that attaches to the angle iron has rotted out. The lack of structure has transferred to the outside walls of the coach causing the side walls to buckle because they are not meant for structural support. I would guess that the rot under the coach is extensive. This is probably why the previous owner patched it like it is to hide the rot and sell it.
I would NOT attempt to drive the coach any significant distance until a full inspection of the FRONT and REAR bulkheads are examined. If the rear is rotted that bad I would also be suspicious of the front bulkhead.
If you jack up the front or the rear, where you put stress on the bulkhead joint, and it is compromised, you will see the gap widen at the angle iron joint.
The coach may have sat in high water for an extended period of time, saturating the insulation next to the box beam and causing the rust problem. This would translate to the entire box beam structure under the coach to be compromised.
I hope I'm wrong.
Here's a photo of one installed on the front. If you make up the 2X12s as Brett suggested you should have plenty of room under there. Nice to have the rig raised up with the air but probably not necessary for your purpose.
jor
Pretty typical of late 80s Foretravel to have the de-bonding issue of the sidewalls between steel frame and fiberglass skin. I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that the outside walls are being stressed from the bulkhead. My understanding is that the adhesive they used was not much more than your regular contact cement. My 89 U280 had similar issue with the sidewalls and the bulkheads were perfectly tight.
Most of our comments are NOT based on the pictures of the coach side, but pictures of the rear bulkhead and the real mess of patchwork of the FG underbody just forward of it.
I offered to survey it earlier . Offer stands. Need some lead time for that space at the shop.
Currently have an old 35ft GM bus waiting for Gen set repair .
Just thinking ... if the coach has a tag axels, it might be a very good idea to put 2x12s under those tires too to keep the air bags from bring over stretched.
Jim
No tag axle.
It sounds like you're not in a spot where you can work on it. If this is the case would suggest not checking torque on bolts, they will almost certainly break. Were it me, I would ease down the road to my shop, avoiding rough or unpaved roads. If separation increases too much, some emergency welding might be called for. I would expect there are other possible emergency solutions, possibly chains and load binders to keep the two ends of the bus pulled together. I think it's safe to say some repair is called for.
An aluminum shop might be investigated to make overlapping sheets to cover the belly after the repair is done. Our Sac shop has a big shear machine to make any size needed.
Pierce
In inspecting many, many bulkheads over the years, I have found this to not be the case. These are grade 8 bolts. Torquing to 15-20 ft lbs doesn't come close to their stretch/break point, even if not at OE strength.
And, from torquing many hundreds of them, I have NEVER broken a Rolock. What I find is that they either torque up or are ALREADY (the critical part) broken with the end badly rusted (vs clean metal break). The break is generally 4 or so threads in where the bolt starts into the closest wall of the box beam.
I have seen many many people tell me all their Rolocks are just fine (looking at the bolt heads). It can absolutely give a very false sense of security.
Let me state it a different way-- if a bolt will not torque to 15 ft-lbs, it is not doing you much good holding a 30,000 pound coach together.
I have broken several Roloks trying to torque them. I've even broken a couple when I tried to remove them. They would not move so tried to tighten/loosen a tiny bit and then repeated this several times before they broke. Yes, the bolt breaks just where you said. They have two primary places to rust in place, in the threads just on the far side of the angle iron in the threads into the tubing and at the far end where they are threaded into the tubing again. So, in trying to remove them, you are fighting the rust at two places in the threads and also a fastener weakened by the reasons below.
While Roloks are somewhere between grade 5 and 8 when new, rust and hydrogen embittlement plus rust jacking weakens them from a smaller amount in a bulkhead in great shape to ZERO in a rusty bulkhead. The only thing holding them in the worst case scenario is the rust between the body of the bolt and the angle iron. In other words, few Roloks in older coaches are anywhere near their original strength.
Roloks were never intended to be used in this application but rather in quick metal building construction where there is no moisture. They have zero rust proofing/coating and were a TERRIBLE choice that Foretravel made for this use. This whole design along with the way it was implemented is the achilles' heel in our coaches.
Replacement with hot dipped galvanized or stainless fasteners is the only way to make the joint half way secure. Even then, moisture behind the angle iron will create more pressure against the fastener. Spraying the area with sealer is not an answer either. Forcing the angle iron away with a flat chisel and then mechanically removing the rust and then coating the back side with something like spray galvanizing followed by a specialized frame paint should do the job the factory didn't.
Pierce
Pierce. You are absolutely correct. But this was a design flaw know and repeated without any build design changes. All metals can be properly sealed to prevent corrosion, yes they must also be maintained. This type of fastener was easy and quick. The box they go threw should of been sleeved for every fastener. More money. IMO the corrosion preventative measures could of been much better. Lapping two Major structures together with self tapping bolts is not correct. It's easy. Properly sealing structure takes time, money, and preventative maintenance for the life of the coach. Hum maybe we have extended beyond what a builder would want. No end date. No new sales. Acid etching, epoxy primers, powder coating costs. We are not building them, we're maintaining our investment and attempting to use some of there useful life during ours. IMO
Scott
Totally agree with this assessment. But, with "care and feeding" (mostly keeping water out) and replacing the occasional broken bolt by thru bolting they can last many decades.
Neglect them and we have all seen what can happen-- even to where coaches separate when driving, fuel tanks fall out on the ground (front bulkhead failure) etc.
I may be off but I think if I had to rebuild the bulkheads and frame instead of bolting the fiberglass bottom on why not urethane foam the whole bottom. It's a better insulation then Styrofoam and it would completely stop any water from the bottom and it would
insulate the steel tubing's. I have used urethane foam under coaches before and even in wheel wells and it wears really well. It's
just a thought.
I had thought of that and you are quite correct that a spray insulation company could insulate the bottom nicely. I was thinking of a rigid waterproof foam only because the spray foam would make future maintenance more difficult if any welding, etc. had to be done.
As our coaches age, this becomes more the rule rather than the exception. For many, the coach they have purchased has already seen several owners. It then becomes difficult to determine what maintenance the coach has had, where it was driven, etc. So, this sudden delamination or bulkhead problem comes as a ugly surprise when the coach seems otherwise to be in great condition.
As the forum grows with new members, it's especially important to have them aware of the potential problem and how to check if their possible or existing purchase has the problem or the extent of it in these veteran coaches. If bulkhead work was done previously, was it rebuilt carefully like Don did or a shade tree patch job as seen in some of the old posts.
Pierce
I should have said that when you remove a Rolok that you think you may have broken, if the broken surface is all rusty, it had previously failed and was only held in place by rust on the angle iron. If it shows any fresh metal, it failed when you tried to torque it or remove it. I had a couple with a little shiny metal at the broken end.
Pierce
Pierce,
An idea how much torque you are applying on the ones that have broken?
:D That was about 10 years ago. I had 3 or 4 missing total. A couple on the curb side, both in front and back. Several others were held in place by rust and showed the classic rust jacking failure with rust on the broken surface. I had the idea that I would remove the rest and just replace with long all thread stainless. When I tried to remove them, they would not come off so I shot liquid wrench around the head. When they still would not move with a little force, I tried to tighten and then loosen. This was with a 3/8" ratchet so not a torque wrench. Anyway, this worked on several and they came off but others broke off with not that much effort and showed the fresh metal at the break.
To check how strong the tubing was, I found a section of rectangular tubing up by the fuel tank on the passenger's side where there was access at both sides of the tubing. I drilled it out to 3/8 and installed a grade 8 bolt, flat washers and locking nut and torqued it to grade 8 specs to see if there would be an deformation in the tubing. As I remember, I torqued to 33 ft lbs for the coarse threaded bolt with no discernible distortion in the tubing. This is almost twice the recommended torque for grade 8 in 5/16"
To be honest, I had no idea what the bulkhead structure looked like or the tubing between the bulkheads. I had several ideas that once I actually looked at the construction, were not going to work. Those of you that have been on the forum for a long time probably remember the huge amount of rust behind just a couple feet of the angle iron that I removed with a Sawzall and metal blade once I forced the angle iron away from the bulkhead with a flat chisel and single jack. All in a coach with no visible rust on top or bottom of the big angle iron and a HWH six pack that looks like it was installed perhaps a year before. I had also looked inside with a borescope/endoscope and had no interior rust in the tubing.
That is the reason I would like to have a removable bottom in sections on the belly of the beast so it would be easy to make any kind of inspection or replace any fasteners. You just don't know what is happening until you take a careful look.
Pierce
My point in suggesting the op not check torque on rolocks was since he is unable to work on it at present location, and has to drive it to the shop...there's no percentage in doing so at this time. Better to hope inertia prevails for a bit more.
Pierce I agree that spraying is hard to get off and yes I would only do that with a proper rebuild that was meant to last as you said
like Don did.