Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Renovations => Topic started by: DavidS on April 05, 2020, 10:52:26 am
Title: Radiant floor heating
Post by: DavidS on April 05, 2020, 10:52:26 am
Ok so :))
I an thinking of replacing the wood in the coach again.. (long Story). I am not happy with it and everytime I look at it.. it bothers me so Out it is going..
I am going to remove the tile in the bathroom also.. So while I am in those areas I am thinking of adding the Radiant heating..
Thinking of a 3/8" PEX made for radiant heating.. I am thinking of connecting this to the Aquahot with its own pump and use the heat off the aquahot for the heating as the aquahot is used on electric or diesel almost always..
So questions
1) can I router a line in the flooring (after I remove whats their now) approx 3/8" to 1/2"? Without any issues? How thick is the floor in the living room/ Kitchen/ Bath room?
2) Anyone familiar with these? Home/ Office/ coach?
After taking the aquahot out and replacing everything on it and rebuilding it.. I think I can tie it in pretty easily.
they make some type of metal track that houses and helps spread the heat.. Wonder if those would be ok to use if nailed down or a problem with movement? I am thinking just router the floor with a groove for the pex to sit in and loop it where I want and tie it all in at the aquahot.
What do you guys think or if you have done this? My only real concern is the movement of the coach twist and vibrations.. but with them being built solid I think maybe it wont be a problem.
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: Brad Metzger (RIP) on April 05, 2020, 11:13:30 am
David , my coach came with it new . Good , no ----very good . If another coach gets in my vision ----it will have floor heat . Out of the sack each morning and place your feet on a warm floor when it is 30 degrees outside , well kind of hard to beat . When I was a young buck it would not have much difference , but now . ;D ;D ;D Brad Metzger
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: John Haygarth on April 05, 2020, 11:15:53 am
David, if I remember correct the ply floor is 5/8" so not really good for putting a groove all over it. If you have put another layer of say 3/8" on top of this oem floor, maybe. We use a few mexican hand made rugs in main areas to help with cool floors but even on the tiled portions it never feels that cold to consider doing what you are considering. I personally would just think a bit more about what you are considering,and along with some rugs just buy a few pairs of really good lined slippers instead. Sounds like you guys walk around barefoot to have thought about this at all. JohnH
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: jor on April 05, 2020, 11:24:29 am
Quote
How thick is the floor in the living room/ Kitchen/ Bath room?
This would be a neat project. I say, why not! John may be right but I thought the flooring was 3/4". I remember Ernie posting awhile back that he hid the 120v wiring that runs up the right side by routing a groove in the plywood to hide it. jor
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: DavidS on April 05, 2020, 11:31:51 am
Thinking maybe Bob will chime in on the floor thickness ..
Thinking the 3/8" Groove would be ideal ... If I used the metal channel I would screw it to the floor and I think it would help mitigate the groove moving or at least help it.. seen a video where the guy did his 5th wheel... Pretty sure the Foretravel floor structure is more solid than any 5th wheel built. Thinking if it worked for him .. it should work for me but.. Wondering!!
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: Woody & Sitka on April 05, 2020, 11:49:02 am
David, the only drawbacks I can see to your plan are the added weight along with the complexity/breakdown/maintenance issues of a hydronic in floor system. If you can afford the excess weight, go for it.
Concur that routering grooves throughout the existing flooring is probably not the best option from a structural integrity standpoint...as well built as these coaches are, they do flex more than you realize going down the road. The in house systems I've seen pour thin-set over the tubing as a heat sink, and install flooring on top of that. Now that would be a ton of weight...literally.
How many 20 year old 5th wheels do you see on the road? Most are on blocks in mobile home parks. Apples and oranges.
I looked at electric in floor heating for my bath when I redid the flooring in there, and passed only because I couldn't find a kit at the big box stores when I was doing my work. Wish I'd done it now, as I love the tile, but need to preheat the floor a bit before showers. Woody
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: DavidS on April 05, 2020, 12:05:27 pm
David, the only drawbacks I can see to your plan are the added weight along with the complexity/breakdown/maintenance issues of a hydronic in floor system. If you can afford the excess weight, go for it.
Hardly Nothing in the grand scheme of things..maybe 100lb max? figured with what I saved on battery weight with the lithium.. hmm not such a bad decision now... and if I routered the weight would counter? Hmmm maybe?
Concur that routering grooves throughout the existing flooring is probably not the best option from a structural integrity standpoint...as well built as these coaches are, they do flex more than you realize going down the road. The in house systems I've seen pour thin-set over the tubing as a heat sink, and install flooring on top of that. Now that would be a ton of weight...literally.
No thinset involved just tube/coolant and the exchanger and maybe an added pump.
How many 20 year old 5th wheels do you see on the road? Most are on blocks in mobile home parks. Apples and oranges.
It wasnt parked.. its being towed so if it an last the test I am sure my foretravel can do a little better if not.. maybe I was sold a bill of goods that wasnt so true after the fact?
I looked at electric in floor heating for my bath when I redid the flooring in there, and passed only because I couldn't find a kit at the big box stores when I was doing my work. Wish I'd done it now, as I love the tile, but need to preheat the floor a bit before showers. Woody
That tile is real cold in the winter.. even with the aquahot on in the bath the tile seems to collect the cold.. you can stick some meat on that tile in the winter and it will hold for a month
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: dsd on April 05, 2020, 12:32:33 pm
David. We used radiant heat in our house. Solar heated. Probably 4$ a month heating bills. Why can't you use two pound polystyrene foam to elevate for tubing and heat sinks. Sheet over that for flooring. Scott
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: Caflashbob on April 05, 2020, 12:36:47 pm
We have vinyl tile in our bath. Original owners ordered it that way. Looks like tile. Never cold
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: OurNest on April 05, 2020, 01:26:07 pm
Dave, perhaps calling MOT service dept & ask Derek's advice. Also, adding a quarter inch to the floor plywood before routing will compensate for any loss of structural integrity. Where the newly finished floor meets bedroom and living room carpet will join by using metal carpet border. Good luck Harry 2005 U270 Bronze Bordello 36'
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on April 05, 2020, 02:40:13 pm
David, I have also thought about this quite a bit. Our entire home and my woodworking are in-floor hydronic heat. I really like it. I would be very reluctant to cut grooves in the existing subfloor to add aluminum heat exchangers and and tubing without adding a compensating layer on top. A 1/4" (6mm) layer of baltic birch plywood would replace some of the lost structural integrity. Probably need to glue and staple it. At 6'2" I am really not willing to give up any net headroom at all.
You have to be careful of where cabinets are, will doors clear? Same with the slide.
With only 3/8" PEX tubing the grooves would need to be closer together than with 1/2" PEX To get the same amountbof heat per square foot. 1/2" PEX guidelines are 6" from a wall, " to the next PEX line and then 12" in the field. With 3/8" this might be 4" and 8". Be sure to do a 24 hr pressure test.
Doing a heat loss analysis will let you know if heating the floor will be sufficient (enough BTUs) to heat the coach. Some combination of in floor and heat exchangers might be the best bet. AH coolant is much hotter (170-180°) than a typical in-floor heat system (120° or less) so a mixing valve might be needed. In our home the return lines mix with the in feed line to push 90-120° through the floors based on air and floor temps in each zone. Max output from the boiler is 135°.
Before you do this make sure the PEX and manifolds are compatible with the automotive antifreeze in the AH. Both our house and the shop have a specialize antifreeze in them and I am pretty sure it is not automotive.
What are you thinking of for a finished floor? We have been looking at FLOR carpet tiles for awhile. They are vinyl backed, floating, work over heated floors (some styles do) and are about 0.34" think for the softer feel tiles. These plus a 6mm baltic birch subfloor add on would be about 0.58" thick. Maybe workable. Create Custom Flooring with Carpet Tiles & Area Rugs | FLOR (https://www.flor.com/)
Keep thinking on this, a workable solution is probably out there. Keep us in the loop.
Brad's coach is special and it may actually have hydronic in-floor heat but most of those coaches and the newer ones have electric in-floor heat.
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: DavidS on April 05, 2020, 02:55:52 pm
My biggest concern overall is the slide... in the open position I have about 3/4" clear(maybe less).. in the closed position the imprint of the roller wheel is left on the floor (one reason I dont like the flooring).. Maybe I will call Foretravel and see what they say..
I thought Bob would have known the thickness of the floor off the top of his head..
The pic I posted here shows what I have to play with... looks like they used a subfloor maybe? not sure if this will need removed also to do this or if this can be part of the depth if I decide to router..
Off topic but on topic... anyone know what they used to run the tube inside the coach for the aquahot (what holds the coolant)? Look at the top left of the aquahot pic...PEX but I will dbl check the rating to be sure. I can always put in a flat plate heat exchanger with a tempering valve to the PEX also.. wouldnt be to hard either. So I think we have options.
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on April 05, 2020, 03:02:33 pm
It looks like PEX in my coach but it may be different from water line PEX, much higher temps. What kind of PEX to use in this application is a good question,
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: folivier on April 05, 2020, 04:17:48 pm
I used an electric heated mat in a previous coach then had cork floating floor over it. Nice! and very easy to install. Where's Rudy? I think he put in an electric heated mat in his coach recently.
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: Rudy on April 05, 2020, 04:23:16 pm
120 vac heat strips sized for the space from Warm Zone Inc. Works great on dedicated breaker in circuit breaker panel.
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: Journey, Roam, Explore on April 05, 2020, 04:39:36 pm
David when I pulled up my flooring in the coach someone previously had used a circular saw to remove the old wood flooring in the kitchen area. They dug down a little bit maybe 3/8 of an inch I didn't measure it. Didn't seem to affect the stability of weight-bearing of the flooring. I've drilled several holes through the flooring to bring wiring up for the pioneer amplifier I put underneath the jackknife sofa. I can't remember what that depth was now but I think it was more than 3/4 of an inch. The one area I can be sure that I saw was under the toilet, or actually the hole that goes down to the black tank. I'm pretty sure I clocked it at an inch and a half. Like two 3/4-in sheets of plywood together. But I am not sure on that one. I think I took a picture of the opening when I was trying to gauge the depth of the pipe and I will look for it. As far as the hydronic heating system is concerned, it sounds like a great idea. Although I'm not sure that it's the best idea to retrofit into our coaches.I think the heat off the aqua hot would be a little bit too much although I guess you could put a tempering valve in there to bring the temperature down. I know I saved quite a few hundred pounds removing the tile and thinset from my coach. I wouldn't want to have to put it back in. Otherwise almost any other flooring that you put on top of there might have issues with it. I know the LVT flooring I just put in and said it was okay for that application but the temperature max was not very much.
I looked and couldn't find a photo of it. But removing the toilet will tell you quick the depth of your subfloor.
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: John Haygarth on April 06, 2020, 11:27:20 am
The reason I said 5/8" was because I put down a 3/8" ply subfloor on top of it as I know that 1"is a minimum standard needed for ceramic tile floor layment. I also checked in a few areas by drilling small holes as a test to find out what that thickness was. I cannot remember see any doubling up as Bob mentions. David's picture by the step well shows he has a sublayer under his vinyl flooring and this is standard practice when putting a new floor covering on especially one of the sheet or vinyl flooring tiles. It is to get a new smooth level surface. Putting down a levelling cement is another way but you really need to have done it before to get good results as it sets up rapidly and lots of troweling to make a decent job. New ply is easier and it must be 100% glued down with lots of staples, which is what I did. The ceramic tiling in our coach has proven this system out as it has been down 11 years and to this day not one crack in either tile or grout. I actually just bought some more sealer for it yesterday after cleaning the grout and will give a few coats on it today to reseal. The job looks like the day it was installed. JohnH
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: turbojack on April 06, 2020, 11:57:19 am
My newer coach has electric floor heat. It does not take long before the floor starts feeling warm after you turn it on. As Brad says it is really nice to get up in the morning and have warm floors. With the electric the floor is evenly heated. I have a good friend has a 2019 Entregra Cornerstone. That coach had pex run through the floor from a loop that is off their aquahot. They say it takes forever for the floor to start getting warm and that there are warm spots and cold spots. Floor temperature is very uneven.
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: DavidS on April 06, 2020, 09:52:07 pm
My newer coach has electric floor heat. It does not take long before the floor starts feeling warm after you turn it on. As Brad says it is really nice to get up in the morning and have warm floors. With the electric the floor is evenly heated. I have a good friend has a 2019 Entregra Cornerstone. That coach had pex run through the floor from a loop that is off their aquahot. They say it takes forever for the floor to start getting warm and that there are warm spots and cold spots. Floor temperature is very uneven.
Wonder how that works with the heat not being even... heaters only take a min to heat the living room and its the same heat from the aquahot to the floor(I assume).. Think I am going to modify the aquahot for the pex .. havnt decided on the 3/8" or the 1/2" ..
Still waiting on Bob (Caflashbob ) to Chime in on the floor thickness.. Cmon Bob stop holding out..
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: Caflashbob on April 06, 2020, 10:02:46 pm
If I had been at Foretravel past 1993 you are correct I would know. Being a nerd. To buy our 97 was a trip. Never drove a new U320. Total crap shoot. Bought it anyway based on my knowledge of Foretravels build quality.
I had demo assembled pieces of floors, sidewalls and roofs to show customers and personal videos of my walk down the production line and videos of my coaches going up the local grades out of so cal
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: DavidS on April 06, 2020, 10:04:51 pm
If I had been at Foretravel past 1993 you are correct I would know. Being a nerd. To buy our 97 was a trip. Never drove a new U320. Total crap shoot. Bought it anyway based on my knowledge of Foretravels build quality.
I had demo assembled pieces of floors, sidewalls and roofs to show customers and personal videos of my walk down the production line and videos of my coaches going up the local grades out of so cal
Educated guess? what did they have? I am sure they didnt make them thinner over time.. Guess I will have to break down and call..
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: Caflashbob on April 06, 2020, 10:59:01 pm
No wood or tile floors back then
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: DavidS on April 06, 2020, 11:17:40 pm
They had to have had a base of some sort? what did they attach the carpet and cabinets to?
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: Caflashbob on April 07, 2020, 01:34:12 am
3/4" marine plywood? Vacuum bonded to the welded steel and foam floor structure. Unicoaches had fiberglass on the bottom side of the floor? This IS 30 years ago. I had an almost eidetic memory but for some reason the true answer eludes me at this time.
All the assorted pieces were vacuum bonded individually then bolted together.
Floor, side walls, roof, compartment dividers, bottom floor.
Ask James T. He knows.
I never sold Unicoaches. Only Unihomes, GVF, FTX, Travco's
The removed plug pieces shown here from Unicoaches seem to look different than the original grand villa's
An extra layer?
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: bdale on April 07, 2020, 08:54:26 am
Could you measure the subfloor thickness at a point where there's an accessible penetration? Maybe at the steering column?
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: DavidS on April 07, 2020, 09:47:02 am
Could you measure the subfloor thickness at point where there's an accessible penetration? Maybe at the steering column?
Great Idea... I need to get another boot for that area anyway so I will look at it today.
Ordered the laminate I found I liked.. So it will be here in a week approx .. Ill order the pex today also once I figure out the depth.. thinking the 1/2" will be ok but..
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: juicesqueezer on April 07, 2020, 11:48:59 am
David, we just removed and installed our new flooring less than 6 months ago. The flooring at the seating area was at least 3/4 inch thick. I was having a hard time finding the right length bolts grade 8 for the captain chairs. I put in all new at the time. On the laminate flooring showing marks when you bring slide in and out; I covered the teflon slide runners with ceiling cloth, thank you Chris Lang for supplying material, but it still left some marks, so I keep 3 pieces of the flooring and lay them down when I bring in the slide and the slide rides over them. You also have to make sure that there is nothing on the floors, as anything will leave a mark. I lay the 3 pieces perpendicular to the slide and the slide glides run over them with no issues. Hope this helps. I also would consider the electric mat that you lay down before installing the tile or flooring. This heats the whole floor evenly! I personally would not worry about weight, as these coaches don't have a power to weight issue, in my most humble opinion! Good luck!
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: csw on April 16, 2020, 10:47:14 pm
Hi! Just saw this post... do not kerf the deck. The tile will crack over top of the kerf line, and the grout will pop as the deck flexes. The deck is already as thin as it should be for its application. If you already kerfed the deck, glue in a piece of solid wood with epoxy, then sand it flush and you will be back to 100% compression load spec. (no more flexing) Then use the same method the factory used to lay the plumbing. Give them a call. Warm floors are mos def worth it.
Chris Wolle, Master superyacht builder, marine electrical systems contactor, engineer, newbie Foretravel fanboy.
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: Jack Lewis on April 17, 2020, 11:11:17 pm
David's, I hope you listen to C Wolle, his advise is spot on.
It is sometimes hard for me too, to not reinvent the wheel. This being said, if your going with laminate, and no grout, I will continue to follow your post, and good luck.
I did luxury, glue down vinyl tile in my last rv, never again. I thought I had prepped well using self leveling concrete, etc., I did not.
This summer, I will have a better experience in my FT, using a different product, much thicker, and the floor will be better prepped. What Is Coretec?: Learn About Our Flooring Technology and Story (https://coretecfloors.com/en-us/our-story)
I had heated electric floors in my first Monaco Signature from the following company and that is why the following link. Gold Heat: Indications of a Warming Trend | MotorHome Magazine (https://www.motorhome.com/tech/gold-heat-indications-of-a-warming-trend/)
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: Caflashbob on April 17, 2020, 11:47:15 pm
Jack talk to me about your 92 sig? I sold 91's. Monaco did not heat the floors. You did? Two speed rear axle? To go back a little Kay and page and Enoch hutchcraft stumbled on my unihome display at the la dodgers show in 1988. Had the front tire pulled and had the suspension system exposed, had the right front end on a jackstand under the hub. Black painted parts, and a looped video with chairs in front where the video monitor was in a large recessed black enclosure where the folks could watch a 12 minute Foretravel story video. Great tool. Sold hundreds off the presentation in total.
So they told me they were going to build a copy. Shook my hand. Thanked me. Lovely.
I told Foretravel that Monaco was going to copy the design and they told me they were not worried about Monaco. Word for word.
Monaco got NYSE listed if memory serves me. They died hard in 2008. Old competitor buddies. Long ago on a different planet. Fun fun days. We were all drinking buddies. Then competitors. The buddies. Endless cycle. Exciting. Fun to win selling Fotravels vs pretty coaches
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: Jack Lewis on April 18, 2020, 01:54:19 am
Jack talk to me about your 92 sig? I sold 91's. Monaco did not heat the floors. You did? Two speed rear axle? To go back a little Kay and page and Enoch hutchcraft stumbled on my unihome display at the la dodgers show in 1988. Had the front tire pulled and had the suspension system exposed, had the right front end on a jack......
Above question from Caflashbob: answer below:
Your memory is good, here below, at the end of this reply, is a picture of me shaking hands with Kay Toolsen Dec 17, 2009 along with some pictures of prior rvs.
My apologies for the long reply, my strole down memory lane, the long answer to your question about my floor heat in the 91 Monaco Signature Crown Royale.
Yes, copy FT they did, even the 8 air bag chassis, took them about 18 years though to catch up with Foretravel, so yes 2006, 2007, 2008 were great coaches, and 2009, not the later built 09s as employees saw the writing on the wall. In March of 09, when they filed bk, they got me for $2,000 on a wrong part they shipped me that winter to AZ.
"They purchased Monaco Motorhomes Inc. from Eugene, Oregon mayor Brian Obie and changed the company's name to Monaco Coach Corporation, with Kay as president and Bill Warrick as chairman of the board. It was 1987."
If you ask Kay, he joked that, if he were smarter, he would have retired in 2005, before the American economy ruptured. "I would have retired with a lot more money," he said, chuckling. "No, I'm obviously fine. I've had a great life and a great career, but I'd be lying if I said the last few years were a breeze."
The 1991 Sig had Cummins L10 Power rated power at 300 hp @ 2100 rpm. Torque. 950 lb.ft @ 1300 rpm. Two speed diff, 4 speed Allison, the 1992 Sig a huge improvement with the 300 hp 8.3, 6speed. Got rid of a huge weight difference going to the 8.3 Cummins. As far as the heated floors, previous owner put in new full tile with electric heat, spoiled me on those cold winter nights doing shows in Yuma and Quartzite. Funny story probably around 04, 05 I'm doing a small show at the new casino in Florance, OR. I'm parked in the parking lot dry camping. A big dark sedan starts circling my 91 Sig, a big man, happened to be black, steps out of the sedan and walks towards my rv. I'm thinking best to step outside now, and meet him outside, to protect my wife. He says, I think you have my 91 Sig, I traded off in 1993, mind if I step inside and take a look. No problem I said, inviting him in and much relieved. He said "no, this is not mine, thought it was, I special ordered mine with black marble floors", and this had light colored marble flooring. I laughed, said it is yours, showing him the original MSRP with an add for custom "black marble floors".
My previous rv to the two Signatures, my 1990 Barth, also had the L10 with 4spd and two speed diff.
Shared album - John Lewis - Google Photos (https://photos.app.goo.gl/3zWJTXZgqWdJeiYx8) Shared album - John Lewis - Google Photos (https://photos.app.goo.gl/kQDk4jkqB4XKS3Xk8)
1992 Monaco Signature Crown Royale Same full body paint, now with improved 6C8.3 and 6 speed. Shared album - John Lewis - Google Photos (https://photos.app.goo.gl/Aw5MErSQGgFGQsa59)
My 1990 aluminium bodied Barth with outside washer/dryer. Shared album - John Lewis - Google Photos (https://photos.app.goo.gl/ggLd6xFNAJYUvFjV9)
My 1990 Barth Shared album - John Lewis - Google Photos (https://photos.app.goo.gl/fBTrFGptotzJMWRR6)
Picture of me shaking hands with Kay Toolsen at Monaco, December 17, 2009, after they filed for BK in March, 2009, and before being bought out of BK in June of 2009. Shared album - John Lewis - Google Photos (https://photos.app.goo.gl/zto4aR3He7pjTYBH8)
Title: Re: Radiant floor heating
Post by: DavidS on April 18, 2020, 07:08:41 pm
No worries.. with the new floor skin I am adding I won't be into the main flooring at all or if I am.. just a skim.. we will be ok.. hang tight as I am getting closer..
I did find a problem with the guide blocks. One is broken and the rubber insulate piece is worn out. So I will fix it as I get to them