Foretravel Owners' Forum

Wonder if anybody with victron inverter and the BMV 700 or the color control has enabled the auto start generator function via the relay?

Would really like to enable this function. When the previous owner Richard had AM solar install it this was not something that he had them do. Not sure why. Both the BMV 700 series and the victron color control has a relay built in that can be used to start a generator. I would like to enable this. I emailed am solar and basically got a response at saying when things have settled down in the US to come up to Oregon. That is not an option for me at this time. I don't plan to be in the Pacific Northwest until at least 2022. Nor do I want to pay $150 an hour or whatever they're charging to do this. So on my coach are u320 there's a generator starts stop button above my head in the bed. I was wondering if I could wire that relay to that switch.? Seems like that would be the easiest way to get to the generator circuit rather than running wires all the way to the front of the coach. my color control is located just behind a refrigerator and just in front of the bathroom. So going after you the best way. Just not sure how to do it. Anybody on the forums have that enabled? I've looked on victron's website and at some YouTube videos but so far I have not been able to find out how to actually wire the thing in. Thinking about calling power tech but I got a feeling they're going to say just to call foretravel. And like most men I don't like to ask for directions 😁
Thanks
Bob

🤔 so slap me in the head.
I just realized why it's not set up for this. I don't have a automatic transfer switch on the coach. Which means that starting the generator will not provide power to the batteries without the Manuel transfer switch on generator.
So in order to allow it to work I would have to reinstall the automatic transfer switch.
But still would like to know the answer to the question.
Long day....

I do have the auto transfer switch but have not set up the generator auto start either, I want to though.
It looked to me like I could run the switch from my Victron 3000, Color Control,or BMV700. I thought the Victron 3000 was only a few feet away from where the old generator auto start was located ( next to the old Freedom 25 unit) and would be much easier to tie into.
 I could not find the generator auto start wiring on the Foretravel wiring diagrams. I plan to trace the wires from the generator back to the original switch.

Bob - mine is set up to work and is programmed by the color control GX device.  Mitchell, at AM Solar, did the install and had to custom make some electronics to make it work.  Really works well and provides a lot of parameters to choose from to start and stop the generator.  I paid the big $$$ to have it done for I do not have that skill set.  I did have the wiring diagram for the auto start that came with the coach in my owner's manual so that helped Mitchell with the install. 

Sorry I could not be of better assistance.
Oscar

I believe I read somewhere on this forum that the gen autostart control box is under a the center console of the dash and there is a pot that you can turn to adjust the start voltage.  My guess is that you could hook into the autostart around there.  You could do a search on gen autostart or adjusting autostart.

I suspect it wouldn't be as easy as I thought. Wish am solar would be a bit more helpful but we all have a lot on our plates now. Victron isn't much help either. But seems that if there is a switch jacking into that should do it. Think I have a pic of the switch wiring above the bed when I installed the back up camera. Maybe that will help.

Partly out of curiosity I have a question.

What tells the auto-start that the generator has started?

On our coaches I don't know but I suspect via the transfer switch. On the victron system it would sense the 120 v coming from it. With the color control it's really cool you can set how much or what voltage you want the generator to come on how long you wanted to stay on and when to turn it off. You can turn it on manually as well. Of course we have that function both on the dash and above the bed so it's not as big of a deal except for the fact that with the color control it's all sensory located where you can see state of charge, PV voltage and input from the solars, and what your current use is in both AC and DC. One problem though I see is that with lithium batteries the voltage usually remains pretty constant until you're almost empty and then it starts to drop off, unlike AGM where the voltage drops off continuously as you use them. So I suspect that it's not as simple with the victron lithium setup as I would hope it to be. For instance if I never wanted my batteries to go below 40% state of charge not sure how I would do that with a lithium set up since the voltage would be pretty much the same as 80% state of charge. I don't think it's until you get down below 20% that your voltage starts to sag. But in truth I haven't played with these guys enough on a day-to-day basis to tell. it may be that I'm going to have to just run it manually. And that's okay. it won't make me more involved in the process instead of a automatic thing.

Bob and Julie, Time to call AM Solar or Bay Marine and tell them you want to buy something like the following which has user variable settings for state of charge shutdown.  Victron also makes a 250 amp unit.
https://youtu.be/Cu5kRvr7dMs



Victron Smart BatteryProtect - 220AMP - 6-35 VDC - Bluetooth C. [BPR122022000] Amazon.com: Victron Smart BatteryProtect - 220AMP - 6-35 VDC - Bluetooth C.... (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07MXH2TVX/ref=cm_sw_r_em_apa_i_h-YIEbFV7EG8M)

The victron BMV and GX can both use the SOC to trigger a relay to start the gen.  If you can find where the original Foretravel autogenstart is located you could just wire into their setup.

I have put a Magnum inverter in which  has and auto start in it. I assumed that the auto start wasn't tied into the old inverter, is that
correct. I haven't used the auto start on my ski trips and it wouldn't have come on as it is set for 12.2 volts and the batteries have
never gone below 12.4. 

Found out information about the gen autostart in the media section. 

Jack I have both the 220 amp battery protect as well as the bp100. All installed by am solar.

Based on the manual you should connect your wire coming from the BMV or GX and connect it to the wire coming out of the Dynagen BCM12 terminal 5 (Start/Run Relay output) to start the generator. 

Hmm. Then how would it shut off?
The problem is when am solar switched out from the factory system to the victron system the auto generator start was inactivated. since it was no longer compatible with the type battery that it now has. I believe but not sure that the victron color control relay should go directly to the generator and not the old dynagen module.
But again I'm not sure.

The dynagen is going to the engine control module of which there are two types GS300 and the ES5X.  I believe (don't know for sure) but the start up acts like a momentary switch like on the water pumps that have multiple switches in different locations, one pulse turns it on and another pulse turns it off.  So if you were to connect it to the wire coming out of terminal 5 it should work to turn it off and on.  I think it works this way because when you manually turn on the generator it seems to works this way.

You could test this to see how it works.  Momentarily put 12v to wire coming out of terminal 5 and see if generator starts and continues to run ( you might have to wait a minute after send 12v to it for it to go through its start up sequence to see if starts) .  Then if it continues to run see if putting 12v to it again turns it off. 

The engine control board does all the real work. The Dynagen just send a start stop signal.  All you need from the dynagen is the wire that hooks into the engine control board.

With my Lithium setup I have the auto gen start and stop set by SOC - works very well.

In our 2001 and later and perhaps earlier the generator is started and stopped by one push of a momentary switch.

Automatic Generator start/stop [Victron Energy] (https://www.victronenergy.com/live/auto-generator-start-stop:start)

The Color Control GX or the battery monitor have relays to send +12v to one side or the other of the relay when it is teiggered.  These can be on voltage or SOC or other things. Delays can be set fro short term loads dropping voltage, run times can be set to shut off after time, voltage or a SOC is reached.

A simple timer switch can be set to send a 12v pulse (just like pushing the momentary switch) to start or stop the generator, the relay in the BMV or CCGX provide the 12v signal.  The timer converts it to a pulse.

Buy Multi Functional Timers online | Timers.shop (http://timers.shop/6V-28V-10-Amp-Timer-POSITIVE-OUTPUT_p_13.html)

They make a timer that connects to your phone for easier programming but this is pretty simple to do and one time only.

All that needs to be done is connect in parallel to the generator start switch wiring either under the dash or at the generator and leave the OEM autostart off.

With Lithium batteries a SOC choice is better.  If the gen starts and provides power to the charger which is set for whatever battery type you have then it will charge the batteries.  If you don't have a transfer switch to power the 120v side of the coach from the generator then something else is needed.

Roger my 1999 generator is a momentary switch.

Bob do you have the gen with a separate preheat switch?  My 97 has that older gen set.  I read carefully and did not see where the Victron could be made to  operate the needed separate 25 second preheat first then trigger the start circuit. 

The later gens have a one button start as far as I know that incorporates the preheat then start within the gen.

On the Victron blog several people asked about this issue and the moderator suggesting purchasing a magnum ME-AGS unit as it had the necessary separate preheat then start built into it internally.

If your gen does not have a separate preheat the info given here about a separate relay should get you going.

The networked magnum ME-AGSN has an included 60' temp sensor wire to allow auto gen start via temps.

With a 10 button control panel and changing the roof airs boards the networked unit can be setup to auto start the gen based on both temps and SOC.  And incorporate the aqua hot or a/c's or the heat strips if so equipped.

With pets in the coach I thought the temp incorporation was a benefit.

Newer coaches do have the temp input as I understand it.

The temp input would seem less important in a boat?

The 99's have the one button momentary switch that starts the heater then the pump and finally the starter. Bob's is a '99

Great

The stand alone unit does incorporate the temp input and includes the temp sensor wiring as far as I have seen.

Google Shopping - Product not found (https://www.google.com/shopping/product/4009397672814335533/image?q=magnum+energy+me-ags-s&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari&prds=cid:4009397672814335533,cs:1,sgro:iv&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiItoiTqtToAhXSAZ0JHfhzDHQQ-K4BegQIChBY)

Item Weight 2 Automatic Generator Start Controller, MFG# ME-AGS-S, allows Generator to automatically start based on low battery voltage and/or cabin temperature. Compatible with most Generator brands. For use with non-Magnum inverters.

That's why I had my auto start off when I go skiing as the generator won't start or start well if I don't cycle the start sequence so I
get my glow plugs hot enough. Calflashbob I have the magnum MS 2812 does it have the temperature sensor.

If your generator has the built in start up that only needs a single 12v pulse to initiate or shut down and you have the Victorn equipment it is all there, a bit of wiring and a pulse switch is all you need.

Or do as CaFlashBob suggests and spend a couple hundred bucks for the Magnum gadget to do the same thing. And a $100 bucks for the 10 button thermostat and who knows how much more for the new boards for each of your ACs to get it to start your gen when the temps get to something.  If you are concerned about pets maybe a good thing.  I would like to get that thermostat myself.  Maybe if I have to replace ACs.  We have no pets to worry about.

Or remotely monitor indoor temps, SOC, voltages, solar chargers, inverters, chargers all on your phone in real time and start your generator from anywhere, just say "Alexa, start the generator." and "Alexa, turn on the AC" or "Alexa turn on the heat". Maybe the simplest solution.

Either way works, you get to decide what works best for you

Old guy what auto start do you have?  The available Magnum ME-AGS-N auto start has an adjustable time for the glow plugs to operate.  Default was 25 seconds.  Zero to 160 seconds I think was the range.

Not sure if the auto start is smart enough to self adjust its glow plug preheat by itself?

Do the later gens with auto glow plug activation change their timing based on temps?  Or just the default?  are they adjustable themselves? Internally?

May or may not require the change to a Magnum ME-ARC remote panel versus the ME-RC panel.

My '99 started fine in 16 deg. temps at Mammoth with the preheat that was used. I think it is timed as the delay always seems the same hot or cold.

The default is 25 seconds I bet internally.  Not sure if it's adjustable.  16 is way different as you know from minus weather.  Which would require oil change in the gen.  Don't ask how I know that. As does the engine.  Cat did not like -32F

The magnum networked is adjustable as I posted

The magnum ME-ags requires nothing.  It comes with a stand alone 60' temp wire.  See the "remote" labeled  area in the picture.

If you leave your 4 or 5 button thermostat's panel on then when the temp starts the gen the function set on its panels starts up after the gen warm up.

No CC change or board change needed. 

Only if you want to complete the system's capabilities to automate both low or high temp uses on top  of SOC would the newer thermostat and/or board changes be needed.

That setup is a dual setback setup with the board changes as far as I know.

The networked unit can operate in a user setup the various heating options.  Aqua hot and/or the heat strips/heat pumps in whatever order wanted or needed.

Then switch to the alternate scenario from hot to cold as weather changes. 

True 4 season setup.  The aqua hot coaches have a temp sensor  in the bays controlled by the bath thermostat that would allow auto heat input from various power sources automatically.

In a remote use without internet WiFi and/or within blue tooth range the voice command would not work.  Needs to be self contained.

Hey, double-check that neither of those BPs are directly disconnecting the main DC supply line of an inverter and/or that neither one is in any way connected to an inverter/charger or anything else that might permit "reverse current" through them, would you? Both connections are expressly forbidden by Victron, but I've still seen more than a few come out of AM Solar (and many others, to be fair) installations connected in ways that Victron forbids... and this is a big issue because under certain circumstances these forbidden connection methods can cause catastrophic failure of the BP and/or failure or malfunction in surrounding devices.
To reiterate: Victron BatteryProtects must not be used to directly disconnect the main DC line of an inverter, and they must not be connected to an inverter/charger at all, or connected in any other way that may allow reverse current to pass through the device (Vout>Vin).
For reference, the user manual: https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Manual-Smart-Battery-Protect-12V-24V-65-A-100-A--220-A-EN-NL-FR-SV-DE-PT-ES-IT-TR.pdf

One other thing, make sure your charger comes on by default when power is applied.  If not then all is naught.

craneman when bringing the coach home the generator starter quit with over cranking, it was -9 F. I found this generator ruff starting
just below freezing so I push the start button and wait 8 seconds push the button to stop and then start and it will start up and run
smooth. In real cold weather I might do it another cycle. The Onan generator I had before would go through the glow plug cycle
at different times depending on the temperature. I called Tech and they said my generator didn't have a temperature sensor so the glowplugs are timed for about 10 seconds. I think I will leave everything the way it is. In the winter I have never needed auto start.

Here is the print if it is still needed.
John M.

Old guy the default in the magnum AGSN is 25 seconds.  Glad you figured out a work around. 

I wonder if the internal 10 second could be overrode

Btw the  magnum AGSN will retry up to 4 times automatically if no ac output is detected and sends  the systems  info to the ARC panel automatically.

Maybe it could and then it might be on for to long when it is above freezing.

Correct I don't have a separate switch for preheat on my unit. So in looking at the diagram that John posted, if the momentary switch both on the dash and at the back bedroom is pressed it goes to a startup sequence, and then the generator starts if everything is correct. Wouldn't splacing into one of those wires be like adding a third switch? And wouldn't that be the relay on the back of the color control?
I'm not sure why the magnum unit would be needed if we already have a module in the co ach for an automatic generator start?
As far as whether or not the BP connect are interrupting the DC current frankly I'm not sure. I'll have to look again. I am solar wired my whole setup, inverter, solar charger, to 300 amp batteries, and all the BMS and other parts in a compartment that used to hold the washer dryer. Some of those wires go back behind the back panel and are impossible to see. In order to do that I would have to completely pull everything out and that is it going to happen. I do have a wiring diagram that's laminated in the coach and maybe that will tell me if it is set up that way. I'd like to think that a.m. solar would not have wired the system up against victron's advice but would be nice to know for sure now.
Sounds like using this feature might be more trouble than it's worth. But I'm still wanting to explore it because there will be times when I'll either coats for several days maybe not plugged in and will want to make sure that the batteries stay topped off. I have enough solar to do that unless it rain for several days or snowed.
Thanks for all that took the trouble and time to post on this. It gives me a lot of food for thought.
Bob

The magnum ME-AGS-S stand-alone unit can auto start your gen without any other system involvement.  Made to work with non magnum systems.

Plus would add a stand alone temp start adjustable on its face. 

See my answer #23.  Click on the google link.  Shows the stand alone unit

Bob,
Wouldn't you connect your Victron auto start in place of the BCM-12.  The BCM-12 monitors your batteries and sends a signal to the ES-52 to start the generator.  Your Victron should be able to the same.
John M

Drawing A-6682 rev date 5/25/99 build number 5600 and greater

Until the next revision.

Momentary contact switches latch or release a latching relay.  Any 12v pulse to the A1 side of the latching relay begins the start process or shuts the generator off.  Easy to make this happen from anywhere, even away from your coach.  With the autostart off on the dyna gen then external devices can control run time based on SOC, time or volts.  All the basic functionality exists on the BMV and CCGX.

Since it looks like all the wiring goes through the auto start module I would think that it would be best to just wire it through that. But I don't know.
I'm thinking about just trying to run a wire from the back of the color control to the momentary switch above the bed and see if that works. I've also got feelers out to AM solar to see what they think. Right now after staff they say are out due to the Corona virus so getting back to me is going to take some time.