The alternator is charging the chassis battery normally but is not charging the house batteries. I have checked both of the large outputs of the "isolator" and the chassis side has 14.5V at idle but the house side has no voltage. That's about the extent of what I know to do for trouble shooting.
The DC side drawing we have shows the isolator board wiring but what we have in the coach looks a bit different than the drawing. The components on both look similar but there is a lot more wires in the coach than what is shown. I'm not for sure if what I checked was the isolator, the start solenoid or some combination of the two.
In one of the pictures it shows where I took a voltage reading from.
What is it that i'm looking at in that picture? Is checking the voltage there a good way to check the voltage output or is there a better way or place to check.
Thanks in advance,
Tyler
That is the BATTERY COMBINER/BOOST, not battery isolator.
If you turn on the boost switch on the dash, voltage should be the same on both large lugs.
The battery isolator, if OE will be approx 4X12" with fins. The OE isolator may be entirely gone-- may have been where the two screws are on the upper part of the board.
Trace the wire from the Alternator B+ terminal and see where it goes.
above the solenoids is a colored bar with 3 or 4 studs the 2nd one is alternator the left looks like the house batteries and far right is the coach(motor) batteries I believe if u don"t have the same voltage to ground on these 3 posts your isolater maybe bad
this bar is to charge the batteries by the motor and prevent back charging from gen or house current
hope I did not confuse u
Will the B+ terminal be labeled on the alternator?
Yes. And the wire will have a number on it-- see your wiring diagram: B19. 2 Gauge red wire.
Tyler,
Photos below show the original red finned battery isolator that came with our coach. My photos show the same panel as does your first photo.
If you still have a OEM isolator, it should be mounted on your panel just above the two solenoids (the 2 round metal objects).
The factory isolator is no longer there. I tracked down the B+ cable and it is the the top red cable on the right side in the picture.
Does that mean the boost switch has to be on to charge the house batteries?
Yes.
Is that ok to do? When we first got the coach, we had to use the boost switch to charge the chassis battery from shore power and I thought there was a lot of agreement on here about not doing that for risk of damage.
On your photo it clearly shows the shadow of the isolator above the two screws, I wonder why it was removed?
And what else has been removed?
Using the boost switch to charge the coach (house) battery is OK as a temporary solution, until you get around to replacing the missing isolator. We understand if money is a little tight right now - we've all been there at one time or another.
Remember: when the batteries are tied together by the boost switch, it would be
possible to run
both batteries down so low that you would not be able to start the engine. You must pay attention to the voltage readings when they are combined.
The boost solenoid may get a little warm when left on for long periods, but it should not be damaged if it is correctly sized and rated.
In your photo, the boost solenoid looks rather crusty. I suspect it has been is service quite a while. If you decide to keep using the boost solenoid to charge the coach battery, I would at least recommend you replace it with a new one. It is important that the boost solenoid be
continuous duty rated, and also of sufficient capacity to handle the required amperage. The Cole Hersee 24213 has been used by many Forum members for this application. It meets the requirements, and is not too expensive.
Shop around (online) for the best price.
Cole Hersee 24213 12V 200A Continuous Solenoid - Boat and RV Accessories (https://www.boatandrvaccessories.com/products/cole-hersee-24213-solenoid?gclid=EAIaIQobChMImO-V69LX6AIVnv_jBx2iHAFsEAQYBCABEgIzqvD_BwE)
Amazon.com: Cole Hersee 24213 Hose: Automotive (https://www.amazon.com/Cole-Hersee-24213-Continuous-Solenoid/dp/B01LRIQYYO)
That solenoid consumes 3 amps of power to make it connection. Gets warm.
Everything metal on Pearl is crusty and that's always a considering factor when it comes to spending money frivolously on her.
Would buying a new isolator be the correct way to fix the problem?
Would something like this work?
Cole Hersee 48090 Battery Isolator 90A 3 Stud (https://www.waytekwire.com/item/77053/Cole-Hersee-48090-Battery-Isolator-90A-/)
Only it needs to be about twice the size (amp rating) to be able to handle the output of the alternator.
Mike
As Mike says, a replacement isolator should have a rating of around 180-200 amps. (Allows for future alternator upgrade)
The original isolator on our coach was rated at 190 amps. See photo below.
SO, looking at the offerings from the supplier you linked, the Sure Power #2002 would be a better choice.
EATON's Sure Power 2002 Multi Battery Isolator | Waytek (https://www.waytekwire.com/item/80053/EATON-s-Sure-Power-2002-Multi-Battery-Isolator-/)
Some Forum members tout the superiority of a "smart" battery combiner over the original diode-based isolator. For example:
Cole Hersee 48530 200A Smart Battery Isolator (https://www.waytekwire.com/item/77051/Cole-Hersee-48530-Smart-Battery-Isolator-200A-/)
The Cole Hersee 48530 could actually take the place (physically and functionally) of your old boost solenoid. It would work as a "smart isolator" and as a "boost solenoid" (using the optional start assist mode).
There are several different products that address the automatic management of dual battery banks in RVs. Search the subject on this Forum for many opinions before you make your decision.
You can also do away with the automatic function, and take matters into your own hands with a manual switch.
Correct. You have a 160 amp alternator and diode-based battery isolator needs to be rated at that or higher.
If you go that route, you will need to be sure the wire from the alternator SENSE TERMINAL goes to the chassis battery lug of the new isolator.
And, if you are a KISS theory guy, you can replace all that with a simple, marine ON-OFF switch. Alternator B+ and chassis battery to one lug and house to the other. Sense wire to chassis battery lug or any other place like the boost switch with good connection to chassis battery. Here is a good one-- rated at 250 amps continuous: PERKO Inc. - Catalog - Battery Switches - Medium Duty Battery Disconnect... (http://www.perko.com/catalog/battery_switches/150/medium_duty_battery_disconnect_switch/)
With that switch:
OFF-- alternator charges only chassis battery bank.
ON-- alternator charges both banks. Also, allows on-board charger to charge both banks with zero amp draw from solenoid,etc. A very good high amp battery combiner/boost.
All the new coaches are equipped with an auto battery combiner as far as I know.
Blue seas ACR?
ML-ACR Automatic Charging Relay with Manual Control - 12V DC 500A - Blue Sea... (https://www.bluesea.com/products/7622/ML-ACR_Automatic_Charging_Relay_with_Manual_Control_-_12V_DC_500A)
If you do not run a wire from the relay to the switch it works fine just no light up in the switch.
The switch replaces the boost switch. Magnetic latching. No power consumed.
Either bank gets a charge the relay connects them. Auto disconnect if a draw occurs.
Separate post on relay to add a starter sense wire to auto disconnect the relay combining function when the starter engages.
Batteries can be manually connected.
The start sense optional hookup shows the start batteries true condition if hooked up.
My auto combiner works perfectly from our small solar panel setup
Thanks for pointing out the proper sizing of the isolator, I probably would not have thought of that.
I'm not fully understanding what's all going on so I need to do some more research.
I like the idea of a manual on/off switch but am having trouble picturing how it works.
To ensure that you never have a run down start battery is why the ACR is installed where the isolator was. 100% reliable.
One mistake resulting in discharged start or house batteries can permanently damage them. Replace
That's why the industry changed to the auto combiners years ago.
Auto-combiners are fine as long as both battery banks have the same or similar nominal battery voltage. AGM house & AGM chassis....great. Wet Cell....great. If you have, or ever think you might have, lithium house batteries the auto-combiner may not be so great. The higher voltage of the lithium bank will not combine well with AGM or conventional chassis batteries. Yes, you lose a volt going through the isolator. So what. That's what the sense wire is there to correct. And there is something to be said for being able to choose when to boost. Auto-combiners can mask a weak battery bank by combining without you being aware that the boost was needed. The isolator and boost relay arrangement is a pretty reliable design that does not limit your battery options the way a combiner does. Both have their place and, as is frequently the case, there is no single perfect solution for everyone, regardless of what the industry says.
Good points. I figured someone would post about lithium.
AGM to gels work fine in my personal experience.
Foretravel uses AGM optima start batteries and mk gels and an auto combiner in their new coaches and probably a small solar panel for 100% reliable charging if under the sun and probably wired up the starter sense wire to prevent the auto combining of the banks masking the battery banks condition.
I second your thoughts on this subject. Each owner should look at the available technology, and decide what
they want to use.
When I rebuilt our isolator panel, I elected to retain the original factory battery management concept, but upgraded to more modern components. I was able to correct the deficiencies of 25 year old design, but I didn't toss the baby out with the bath water.
'93 U280 Isolator Panel Upgrade (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=34743)
I started the engine and turned on the boost switch but there was no change in voltage to the house side of the solenoid. Maybe the boost solenoid is bad also.
Right now all we're really needing is a simple but quality way to chare the house batteries with the alternator.
Right now I'm leaning towards a new, properly rated isolator to replace the missing one, but that could change. I appreciate hearing everyones opinions.
With dash BOOST switch OFF, there should be no voltage at either of the small terminal posts on the BOOST solenoid.
With BOOST switch ON, you should see 12 volts at
one (either one - doesn't matter) of the small terminal posts on the BOOST solenoid.
If you are getting 12 volts at the small solenoid post (with boost switch ON) try tapping lightly on the top of the solenoid to see if it frees up and closes (percussive persuasion). If so, it is probably corroded inside (or weak coil) and needs to be replaced.
If tapping on it doesn't work, it is toast.
The fins on a isolator shows it consumes a lot of power. Makes the entire system work harder. Longer gen run time.
If the boost relay is toast, you can easily bypass it by connecting both large battery cables to the same terminal on the relay. Either side is fine. That will create a jumper around the relay and directly connect your 2 banks, which should restore charging until you get it fixed. Note that as you drain your house bank, you will also be draining your chassis batteries. Not good to leave it this way any longer than you have to.
I'm looking over the drawings that we have and trying to get an understanding of what all is happening. I don't really understand what each component does or how it does it.
We are getting 12v to one of the small posts on the solenoid but tapping on it didn't produce any results.
On the drawings we have they show both the start and boost solenoids with only one small post instead of two. Do both small posts have the same function?
And are these solenoids or relays? Everything says solenoid but they seem similar to a relay to me.
A solenoid is a type of relay.
If one small terminal, the solenoid grounds by its body being connected to chassis metal If two, one small terminal is wired to ground.
The isolator has nothing to do with the generator as it feeds the batteries from the main engine's alternator.
Tyler,
Think of the isolator as a swinging gate. If it sees one set of the batteries (whether it be coach or start) low it swings the gate open to feed that side more juice.
Mike
I think he was referring to the power consumed by the isolator, which means the generator has to run longer to make up for any charging that the alternator can't complete. A few seconds extra generator time on a typical charge cycle, I would imagine. In reality, I think the small amount of power wasted by the isolator just means a little (very little) extra work for the alternator.
bdale,
What I am saying is if the system is working properly the batteries should be fully charged or close to it after you have had the engine running down the road. The voltage regulator makes up the difference in the isolator.
All this discussion about mili amps really has nothing to do with helping out with the OP problem.
Mike
Let me state it a little differently. The sense wire tells the alternator the voltage on the battery side of the battery isolator. So, if the "target voltage at the battery" is 14.0 VDC, the sense wire communicates that to the alternator. The alternator must put out about 14.7 as about .7 VDC is lost to heat in the diode-based battery isolator.
Just out of curiosity, if someone had a decent sized solar setup could an alternator be eliminated all together?
NO. You would have to have a very large solar system to keep up with day time driving and ?? night driving???