Since we have decided to keep our coach I decided - Hey why not spend thousand of dollars more...
I've ordered a Victron Mulitiplus, 4 Battle Born Group 31s, new Cerbo GX, new GX Touch Screen. I also have a Progressive EMS-HW50C that I will install.
Inquiring minds want to know...
1. Does keeping the Power Watch meter from 1934 make any sense now?
2. Should the Progressive be installed after the shore power? I had intended to install it behind the wet bay panel above the dump valves with the remote on that panel above the new See Level panel. It is super easy to grab the main line coming in there. Does it make more sense to install it after the switch so it monitors both shore power and gen power?
3. Where have you mounted the Victron? Upside down on its back in the old Freedom 25 spot?
Thank you all in advance. It's great having so much help to spend money...
Don't throw the power watch meter away.
I'm sure some one would want it.
Be careful how you mount your Victron Mulitiplus. In the owner's manual I believe it specifies how it must be mounted. My Victron had to be mounted vertically for proper air flow for cooling. Yours could be different being a newer model than mine but be sure to check.
Good luck, sounds like you are building a nice system!
Since our Progressive Industries EMS protected main breaker panel from a failing generator voltage regulator AND displayed the very high voltage on the EMS monitor panel, we choose after transfer switch.
Years later, hearing about the possibility of high shore power damaging transfer switch and then backfeeding the voltage to generator, we installed a 2nd EMS on the shore cable before the transfer switch.
We still think the after transfer switch location covers more anomalies that are more likely to happen. We do love the inside monitor panel with its reporting AC amps, volts & frequency from EACH leg of 50-amp, even more important when connecting coach to 30 or 20 amp shore power pedestal.
"Coastalbuilder", and anyone installing an EMS, you might check out the following thread, it really helped me when I installed mine. I am so thankful for Barry and Cindy's recommendation for placement of EMS to protect from both shore and generator power issues.
I also have the park post Hughes PWD50-EPO Power Watchdog smart bluetooth surge protector with emergency power off, auto shutoff, that will protect the wiring in front of ATS, and ATS from faulty voltage from the shore post to my onboard Progessive EMS.
By installing the EMS on the cable between the transfer switch and the main breaker panel, you are not only protected from high or low voltage from the shore pedestal, you also are protected from high or low voltage from the generator. An issue here can destroy your upstream appliances just as quick as shore power to your tv, microwave, residential refrigerator, inverter/chargers, cpap machine, fans, etc. that run on 120V. Many have documented not only the danger from shore power issues, but also from generator power going bad.
I repeat, if you only put your EMS protection at your 120V input, such as at the wet bay or shore power post, you are unprotected from run away voltage from your generator.
See reply #6 from Barry & Cindy
Install Progressive Industries EMS-LCHW50 (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=37607.00)
Amazon.com: Hughes Autoformers PWD50-EPO Power Watchdog Smart Bluetooth... (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PRTZCF5/ref=cm_sw_r_em_apa_i_o2qPEbQX2YPPS)
My victron multiplus is in the bathroom cabinet where the washer dryer was. My color control is next the refrigerator. My EMS will be mounted in the wet bay before my manual transfer switch.
Here is what I did with my BB batteries. Adding disconnect switches in the battery bay is convenient and safe. I added a fuse here as well.
600 AH Lithium Battery Installation (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=37729.msg363953#msg363953)
The only change was to a 60 amp Sterling Battery to Battery charger from the 120 amp. Victron makes a nice one too but smaller. With 4 BB this is a better size for that capacity as well. I added a switch and a delay timer to the ignition power wire to the B2B. There are times when I want the ign on but don't want it to start up and I want a sufficient delay before it starts (more than the built-in delay) to get the engine started. Thus is important if you have solar or other charge sources for the start batteries.
This is where I installed the Victron Multiplus, color CCGX controls and more. The Multiplus is on the forward wall of the main bay on the passengers side where the old inverter was, close to the white panel that covers all the big 12v wiring.
A Second House Battery Bank, Solar Panels, 2 New Inverters (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=31957.msg284051#msg284051)
I remade the panel in the cabinet to hold the control, the Victron BMVs added two digital voltmeters to monitor voltage on each leg and later added the B2B monitor and controller. The panel has handles and is mounted with velcro to make service easy. Your original panel will quickly find a new home.
I put the progressive display in the closet in the bathroom. I only need to see it if I need to see it. I added a second display in the wet bay as well.
Was so glad I listened to Barry & Cindy's recommendation on installing our Progressive system. It protects both the shore and gen issues and it save our bacon, when the gen regulator went bananas and could have fried all our electronics! Thank you again, Barry & Cindy!
Have you checked with AM Solar, or previous owner, to see if you have any EMS protection? I am surprised in such an expensive system, professionaly installed by AM Solar, there is not already an EMS, if nothing else, to protect the Multiplus.
Previous owner had a small plug-in between the shore power cord in the coach. That was all. I bought a 50 amp progressive industries unit but haven't installed it yet. Was going to put it in between my manual transfer switch and the circuit breaker box to cover both Genny and shore but will use it to connect my new 50 amp reel and the coach.
Why? Do you not have a fear of high voltage from your generator, or do you plan to never use your generator again?
Since you have the ability to protect against both gen and shore with the one unit you have, from Progressive, why give up one of the two sources you can protect from?
Good question Jack. Mostly I am more concerned about the shore power issue than the generator. Plus It would serve as a good way to connect the new power cord reel with the existing power cord going to the transfer switch.
Might put one in line with the generator output later. If I did it would be next to the generator.
Now, I understand your reasoning for putting one there. You might also consider the following Hughes EMS for that.
I wish I had placed a Hughes EMS unit there. Instead, for my own reasons, I went with the same as the following Hughes unit, only in a portable model. I also have the Progressive EMS unit below my bed, between the ATS and the circuit breaker box, protecting against both gen and shore power, and doubling the amount of joules protection against surge.
For me it is much easier monitoring voltage, with a glance at my cell phone from the Hughes EMS, than glancing at the Progressive readout.
I suggest the following to use as your junction box for your cord reel. It accomplishes what you want, has bigger and user replaceable surge protection board, bluetooth readout of voltage to phone, etc. This would then allow you to place the Progressive unit where you want. If you choose to put the Progressive EMS between the ATS and the circuit breaker panel, then the the Hughes unit would also double the amount of joules surge protection in your rv, and help protect your Progressive unit against failure form surge, and protect you against both source issues.
Amazon.com: Hughes Autoformers PWD50-EPO-H Power Watchdog Smart Bluetooth... (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PMJ2K95/ref=cm_sw_r_em_apa_i_8xSPEbEPWEG6S)
Jack I heard about this unit soon after I purchased the Progressive one. Would have prefered this one by Hughes. Maybe next year....
True, I have 2 rigs with Victron Multiplus units (freaking best out there IMHO), just follow the guidelines. I have a 3000 in the Foretravel Vertical replacing the old Xantrax like for like, and in the new Van build a 2000 in a horizontal position.
So after way too much thinking I am ready to start. Could someone put an eyeball on this and see if I am missing anything? Sorry it's not the greatest drawing as I was playing around with some online software.
I plan to mount the Multiplus (vertical) on the curbside bulkhead in the basement area behind the propane tank. I think the original cables will reach across there from the old Xantrex location. I have racks built for a total of 6 BattleBorns to go in teh battery compartment. I only have 4 to put in right now. I'm not sure where to mount the BMV 712 Smart display. There are too many wires coming out of it to snake them all up to the area I plan to put the new GX Touch 50 so maybe in the battery compartment since in theory the Touch will show me everything (and the Smart is bluetooth).
Thank you a million in advance.
Let the smarties chime in, but my recollection is everything has to pass through the shunt. It looks like the multiplus is parallel with the ground cable.
Negative to the shunt then loads on the other side.. it needs to read all the loads so it has to be the first thing off the battery neg cable.
Yup, anything that doesn't go through the shunt "didn't happen" or at least did not register. Wait, that sounds like Las Vegas???
Thank you all. Here is try #2. And getting a tad better with the software. Any other issues you see? And I can remove the Power Watch correct? I also plan to install my Progressive Industries unit under the bed after the ATS. I may add two more Battle Borns later. I may also add solar and the starter battery and alternator connections later as well.
Looks OK to me. I would suggest putting the BMV inside. Maybe you can read all of the data on your phone but maybe adjusting setting would be easier inside. Maybe you can adjust all of the settings from your phone.
The big fuse behind the white panel (in my coach) ia a 400 amp fuse. I added another fuse just after the switch big enough for the high current possible from six BBs. Bigger than the 400 amp OEM fuse. Slightly different protections for different sub systems.
I also added bus bars to which each battery connects both plus and minus. And consider a switch on the negative side between the bus bar and the shunt as well. If you need to disconnect batteries you can just open the switch.
Because of the li-ion batteries ability to output extreme amounts of current if shorted somehow using as much marine fire retardant cabling as possible would seem a good safety idea? Batteries to inverter comes to mind for sure,
Not sure if li-ion batteries work the same as std batteries but to equalize normal batteries use having the batteries cabling being the same length from each terminal to a central block of some kind for both the positive and negative circuits was a way to have every battery in the bank to be used load wise the same. Versus the end batteries putting out more work?
After a couple back and forth with Justin at Bay Marine this is the final drawing.
But I thought the OEM cable was 3/0 from what I read but I just started looking to get ready to install and the OEM cable is all 2/0. The fuse behind the OEM white panel is a 300AMP fuse. I could add an additional 2/0 cable for + and - from the OEM panel to the new Victron. And then I could change the 2/0 from the batteries to the OEM panel to 4/0 or add another 2/0 cable but I don't have much more room on the studs in the OEM panel. The other jumper cables on the OEM panel are 2/0 and the cables running back to the BOOST module for the starter batteries is 2/0. What is the downside of just leaving all the 2/0 cable in place?
None. Other than it's not fire retardant.
You keep mentioning fire retardant when asking about adding components, especially cables. All the old OEM cables run around, next and through a bunch of stuff that is also not fire retardant. The batteries sit in a compartment next to a fill cap with almost 200 gallons of diesel fuel. All the OEM stuff is bolted to a wall that is next to all your stored items. Tons of electrical system components are under the bed in a wood box. And I have a diesel burner directly under my coach. If the coach has not had a fire in 21 years how will new cables cause a fire? I am respectfully asking my friend.
The original cables in your coach may have been 2/0 based on the size of inverter and charger size. And the length of the cables. You probably have a 3/0 cable from back in the engine compartment up to the main common post behind the white panel.
If you are using Battle Born batteries I would suggest upping cable size to 4/0 from the batteries (I would use a bus bar) to the common positive post behind the white panel and then to the big fuse and then 2 - 2/0 to the Multiplus
See wiring diagram in post# 20.
I agree ,as built, risks were smaller. How much more energy is capable of being released with li-ion batteries?
All the makers warn of dead shorts.
Side crash into the compartment?
Thousands of dollars in expensive parts to not use safer, possibly lower resistance tinned, non corrosive group three copper flexible cables?
$100? The batteries and inverter are right next to each other.
If memory serves me there were 2 different sizes in 4/0?
Not sure on the marine UL 1426.
Not my business whether anyone uses this or not.
Hard to be too safe. As a brag point you would impress anyone.
As a selling point it would add credence to the engineering would it not.
But it is a few dollars more.
CoastalBuilder,
In your application a high quality fine stranded EPDM welding cable will work fine, be fire retardant and meet the same UL requirements for wire safety as PVC covered cable.
Bob believes PVC jacketed cable is better. Maybe more fire retardant? I respect his fire concern and he can choose the cable that fits his needs in his coach when he replaces all of his cables.
PCV covered cable is sometimes used in new RVs now because it is cheaper. Maybe not if you are using marine grade tinned PVC cable but that is not what the RV builders are using.
But quality EPDM welding cables you buy today are also flame retardant.
When a lot of bends are required to complete the wiring of an application, welding cable is often preferred due to its flexibility. The flexibility of welding cable is a result of its construction using finer strands of copper and EPDM insulation. Because of the finer copper strands, the amount of copper per foot is greater in welding cable than battery cable, which allows welding cable to handle higher voltage applications.
EPDM welding cable resists grease, oil, and water, as well as protecting against abrasion, cuts and tears. However, welding cable is also flame resistant and meets the UL-1581 standards. This UL rating gives it an edge on battery cable when it comes to protection from the elements.
EPDM Welding cable is ideal for installations with exposure to colder weather because of its construction with thinner stranding which allows increased flexibility and usability.
the amount of potential energy that you're going to be pulling from those batteries leads me to say that you should if not must use 4/0 cable. I would use marine cable tinned. But welding cable would be sufficient as well. The small price to pay now. if you try to pull too many amps through two small of a cable it's going to generate heat. generate too much heat it's going to melt.
Otherwise glad you are keeping the coach and looking forward to seeing your lithium install.
Yes some kinds af epdm have formulas that are fire redardent. Expensive and rare. Are you willing to bet the welding cable MAY be fire retardent. Unless identified as such I would be suspicious.
Versus labeled cabling.
To save $50 difference on a many CB system.
Are you all that frugal?
"Well it never gave me no problem."
Changing the amount of amp around the coach versus the oem wiring.
Probably capable of many times the amps if a failure occurs?
I'd like to think this has not happened to me a few times as a Foretravel sales manager.
Hence the above quote. Did I hear this here?
Take this as an advantage in a optimized low idle amp power consumption system.
Wanna' bet if you went to tinned tiny stranded group three cabling you would pick up the power lost per foot from the higher resistance cabling. Every cable has a loss per foot number.
Heats the cable. Stealing from your systems capacity and charge rates.
Any of you ever checked your cable temps? I bet not.
Every degree over ambient is suppling your energy to heat a wire.
Yet you would use more resistant non retardant cabling?
This is like old Foretravel days. This is great. Convince me..
Less expensive does not cut it normally in my rv experience.
The same exact quality for less money is great. Less money. Less quality? Not me.
Been there
For others, down the road that may be reading this. Here is the TEMCo welding cable specs. Thank you all for the comments.
OK, please, lets "agree to disagree" and move on.
This discussion/argument is appearing in way too many threads-- most unrelated to the original topic.
Both sides have been well discussed.
PLEASE REFRAIN FROM INJECTING IT AGAIN INTO THIS OR ANOTHER THREAD! They will be deleted.
THANKS.
Brett/moderator
So.... I'm finally knee deep in making this change. The old batteries weigh 1,200 each. At least that is what my back says. One negative terminal post was loose and and another one was broken. These really, really needed changed out. No date code punched on them so I have no idea how old they were. One quick question - Doe the Multiplus E (T sense) - wire go to the bus bar, to a battery - terminal or to the down stream side of the shunt? Other than praying it all works that is my big question right now. Thank you!
I would say that the temperature sense goes to the negative terminal of the battery
From the Multiplus manual ...
4.4.3 Temperature Sensor
The temperature sensor supplied with the product may be used for temperature-compensated charging (see Appendix A). The sensor is isolated and must be mounted on the batteries minus pole.
If you are also installing a Victron BMV 702 or 712 with the optional temperature sensor it goes to the PLUS battery terminal