Thinking about getting batteries and trying to compare the life of the O'Reilly AGM's to the lithium. I can buy 3 sets of the AGM's (9 batteries) for the price of 4 lithium 100 ahr batteries. How old are the O'reillys on the forum that are still going strong?
Not much time on mine, but going strong one year later.
Just replaced my 10 year-old Deka / East Penn AGM batteries that we're going strong up until a couple weeks ago with O'Reilly's, same battery. One developed internal short, sold the other for $100 on Craigslist that was in good shape.
got 10 years out of mine before they ballooned up....replaced with same 3 years ago...all good
As I'm sure you've noticed, Craneman, many here have used their batteries with great success.
My chassis battery is from O'riellys and it's starting it's 8yr the coach battery I replaced last fall after 7yrs. Both batteries are sealed 8D wet cell, the new one cost $219.
Have seen many posts of them being installed but was looking for their lifespan to make a decision. Personally turning 76 this year I didn't think putting out 4K for lithium would be a benefit to me, and was hoping for around 8 years for the 3 O'reilly's. I am sure the lithium group will mention increased coach value with lithium, but probably would not regain the cost.
Craneman I have 8D AGMS from ORileys 5 years old and going great
X2 what Bruce said.
6 years old and no problems whatsoever.
Pretty Good Price on AGM8D? (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=20565.msg150562#msg150562) (Reply #16)
While the info is nice it's all anecdotal. How about actual capacity at what age. Any AGM not perfectly charged will lose capacity. Not equalizable. Except for Lifelines supposedly.
So the quote that I got so many years before I HAD to replace them has no info as to how much capacity was lost at so many hours.
If you took any battery into a shop they hook up a meter that tests the battery and prints out a small piece of paper with the measured capacity.
Somewhere along the line these AGM's had started losing capacity. More gen run time. Quicker voltage drops from the same uses. You used to use a 100 amp hours and be at 12.6 volts for a random example and are now at 12.4....
East penn discharges every battery it makes a set amount then recharges them. I have zero proof but my feeling is the top rechargers are sold as east penn/mk's. The slightly less strong ones are private labeled?
That's what I would do wouldn't you?
I notice no private label east penn Gels. Not that I can find.
The gels can be partially discharged then not fully recharged quite a few times without damage when finally fully charged.
East Penn states that the Gels are the least expensive battery they make on a per cycle basis.
Lots of ten to twelve life's on oem Gels per here and my conversation with mk's engineer.
He mentioned that east penn had made additional plate separator mods and adopted a way to pre charge the plates before installation that might allow 20 year lives. His words not mine.
My issue is the steady loss of capacity. It would irritate me to not have at lest 90% capacity.
Solar recharging every day limits some capacity loss. Still much shorter cycle life versus gels.
If I were selling a Unicoach I would absolutely install new mk gels and optima redtops in the coach. Period. Just like new.
Eliminates the prospective customer asking any questions on the batteries.
Just me after selling hundreds of used high line coaches over the years. Wiper blades. belts. Coach water pump.
Every coach. Way more easy to sell profitably.
But heck what do I know.
If you had tested good gels I would not discount my buy price for a coach personally.
P.S: a good desulfurization device on any AGM battery should greatly extend its service life and may restore lost capacity cheaply
Craneman everyone has to make they're own decisions when you're thinking of AGM versus gel cell versus lithium batteries. I think that if you're just looking at cost then hands down AGMs are the way to go. No question. However batteries are more than about cost. And lithiums are more than about cost. I think that when you consider the additional value of a lithium battery setup versus an AGM setup they win in every category hands down for full-timer. For someone who uses the coach on a vacation type basis or once in a while they don't make as much sense. And if you stay plugged in when you get to your destination they don't make as much sense either. Nothing new for people interested in this type of technology and I'm about to say. Lithiums Excel in the weight category. Hands down not only will your coach weigh a little bit less but if you're the one that's lugging those batteries around it makes a huge difference. Lithium is Excel in a size category. Their footprint is just smaller. That really comes in handy on a small boat or RV, or even a van. Lithiums Excel in their ability to not only accept a large charge quickly meaning less generator runtime, but also in their ability to deliver large amounts of power quickly. So if you're not all electric coach for instance and you're running a microwave while also using an induction cook time a lithium battery setup will give you much better performance. Lithiums Excel and a cycle category. AGMs will never deliver the same amount of cycles that a lithium battery will be able to do. That's where the cost benefit can really play out with a lithium setup.
All those factors are more or what led me to my desire to have lithiums in my coach, or my boat. I'm not saying that you can't get good performance out of AGMs cuz you can. Or gell cells.
The only downside on the lithium battery setup really is two fold. And that is initial cost and their inability to charge in cold weather. The initial cost of them are high and if you're not full timing you will not get the benefit of this technology. In my opinion anyway. Then not accepting a charge during cold weather is easily mitigated in several ways. In my way they're installed inside the coach. And a BMS make sure that they are not chargeable when the temps get low. Lithium and I am batteries do not like cold weather when charging, and neither does my body. So when it comes time to travel and some cooler weather I'll make sure I have my aqua hot on and running.
When I toured the foretravel factory I asked them why they weren't using lithium-ion batteries. He told me they weren't ready for prime time yet. Frankly I totally disagree with that statement. Thousands of people have used these batteries and every type of way and most have no issues with them.
Personally if I was in your situation now, I would just get the AGMs and be done with it. unless you think you're going to be driving your coach into your '90s, then I get the lithiums. 😁🤔😎
Each of us have to make her own choices on things like this.
:D Chuck, Just getting ready to reply to your PM... I bought our four O'Reilly AGM's the summer of 2015, almost summer of 2020 now (feels like it anyway!). So far, they seem just fine. I don't pay a lot of attention, I generally am able to keep them above 85% and I can't recall them going lower than about 75%. I only currently have about 400 watts of solar, and we boondock or dry camp occasionally for a week or two but try to pick the time and places so the temperatures are as comfortable as possible without too much generator time for A/C. I will replace them with lithium someday (soon?), and if they still have life left then ( I suspect they will), I will repurpose them for our trailer or possibly my CONEX box shop. Overnight with the compressor based marine fridge and various computer use etc., we are typically around 85% to 90%
Don
I agree with what Bob says in the above post. I believe the Gel would be a better choice, than an AGM. That being said, you must also weigh your needs, how you use your rv, budget, etc. That is how I ended up with the Oriellys AGM8D batteries over Gel and Lithium.
I also enjoyed Oriellys 10% off to veterans discount. They also did not charge to help me installing them. At approx 160lbs each, I disconnected mine, they took the old ones out, placed the new ones in place. I took pictures to make hooking the new ones up worry free.
https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b/fleet---heavy-duty-5000/marine---boat-30733/deep-cycle---marine-batteries-17354/409e0a64fe51/super-start-fleet-heavy-duty-group-size-8d-battery/agm8d/4742645
8G8D | MK Battery 12v 225 AH Deep Cycle Gel Cell Battery with Automotive Post (https://www.batterystuff.com/batteries/mk-battery-12v-225-ah-deep-cycle-gel-cell-battery-with-automotive-terminal-posts-8g8d.html)
No body asked me but if I were a prospective coach buyer on my list would be does the coach have an auto battery combiner like every new coach made. Nearly impossible to be perfect. The odds are that any engine batteries have lost capacity.
So minus for new batteries. Minus for a new combiner installed. Minus for used AGM's.
I have learned the hard way than any prospective buyer needs to only nod his head up and down. Never sideways. Never.
Cannot overlook and detail if you want retail.
Any defect(s) start at $5k discount and go up from there.
Just me but if I had a slideout painted coach for sale on my lot it would have gels, optimas, new Michelin's.
absolutely would get back in the selling price those costs. Plus centrimatic balancers. Koni FSD's.
Demo drive would be better. Coaches that shine on demo rides sell for more money. Duh
JackL will chime in here I assume. These are highline coaches. Any deviation from top of the line features and equipment will cost dearly IF you are selling
Exactly Craneman........who will live longer......you or the batteries. Save money.
Looks like the Oreilly's are what I will buy when the time comes. The Lifelines that came on the coach are dated 2013 and I have no history on them before the end of '15 when I got the coach. They got through the night last year in the Sierra's in Oct. charging on solar and 1 hour charging time at 9:00pm. I will add desulfators to the O'reillys and the 2100 watts of solar should keep them going when not at home and plugged in. The cost of gels or lithium are not a financial problem, just feel I would be throwing the money away unless the difference could come back when we sell, if we sell. Could get passed down and kids could get lithium much cheaper when that time comes.
Probably a major reason Foretravel used Gels is that the last 10 to 15% of the charge cycle takes twice as long in time versus going from 50% to 85-90%.
Partially charging then discharging seems to permanently damage agm's.
Not easily fixable if at all.
Gels or li-ions can take the non full recharge cycles best
Bob,
That won't be a problem for us. At the Q in Jan. the solar put the batteries in float by 2:00 with my Xantrex SW3012 in the AGM setting. The Q is the only time of the year with the short days that we use the coach. If there is no sun I will just have to use the generator that's why the coach has one.
Good for you. And anyone else with large solar systems. You have more money and/or time invested in the solar system which I envy than what 3 new mk gels would cost. Am I not correct?
I would sure add the auto battery bank combiner to guarantee 100% reliable charging of the engine battery side.
If you already have done that I am done.
I, as a motorhome appraiser hundreds of times, would deduct for used agm's and non optima's. Too easy for a buyer to knock the coaches battery to work me for a discount.
And after having used countless rv's with old flooded cell and battery boiler charging systems I am paranoid about having the best batteries in perfect condition. Too many times stranded or having to run the gen excessively long ago.
Putting customers out in less than perfect batteries had a percentage chance of costing me a repeat 2-3 year customer. Stupid not to give them the best possible experience for as long as possible.
Same reason why Foretravel put the best batteries and tires. Pennies versus another sale.
I replaced good flooded cell house batteries and interstate group 31 sealed batteries when we got the coach 8 years ago. House's are still there. Engine optima's died from accidental discharge.
Added solar and a combiner and new optima's to fix this.
Then replaced the heart 25 with a BTMS capable and run Ms 2812 to govern the charging profiles better.
Exactly like a new coach has as far as I know.
My guru was afraid to go past the low 20 volt solar rv systems as he worried about danger to a fireman on the roof in event of a fire from the high voltage systems
Hummm, never seen a fireman dumb enough to get on top of a motor home on fire, by the time they get there no need. Just saying! My 850 watts (72 volt panels) and 3 AGMS Work great for me. Course we are Fulltime and boondock 70% of the time.
Like I said HE was worried. All the rv panels are less than 30 volts. He understood that the higher powered residential systems are higher voltage. I wonder if any rv manufacturer installs higher voltage residential systems?
Are higher voltage legal on rv's? Never asked. Wiring has to be in conduit as far as I have read?
Can a cracked panel discharge voltage to anyone on a roof?
This is a choice you get to make for yourself. Make it with all the correct information you can get. Choose based on what is important to you. No one else can say your choice is right or wrong.
Solar cost.
My self installed 1200 watts of solar using commercial grade solar panels and a Victron charge controller, cables, fuses, switches and custom made panel mounts cost me less than $1700. On a nice sunny day I get more than 6,000 watts of production.
Lithium battery charging at low temperature
A common bit of misinformation here. Lithium batteries will charge and discharge at very low temperatures (below zero here last December) with very simple battery heaters. Once the batteries are in active use, charging and discharging, low temperatures are not an issue.
Some considerations
3 O'Reillys will have a new capacity of about 735 amp hrs (+/-). At discharges to 50% SOC and recharge to 100% SOC every time you will get at about 1000 cycles. That is 367 usable amp hrs. At discharges to 75% SOC and recharges to 100% SOC every time you will get about 2100 cycles. That is 184 usable amp hrs. Every time you do not recharge to 100% you lose a bit of capacity. After a while that loss of capacity is permanent. Getting to float is not the same as 100% SOC. O'Reillys have a 3 yr warranty.
Battle Borns have a 10 year warranty and if you recharge at a maximum of 20% capacity you can get close to 5,000 cycles. Battle Born considers one cycle from 100% SOC to 0% SOC and back to 100% SOC. 80% to 30% and back to 80% SOC is 1/2 cycle.
So 2 100 amp hr Battle Born Batteries have 200 amp hrs usable capacity, more than 3 8Ds at at 25% use cycle and 2-1/2 the number of cycles, likely all under warranty.
All of these numbers are just numbers. For many the only consideration is dollars so O'Reillys before Lifelines. For some the prospect of probably never buying house batteries again is appealing. I suppose if you sell your coach a very well done Lithium battery system might make you coach more desirable to a buyer but I wouldn't expect to recover your difference in front end cost. Some will like the 500 lb weight savings.
There is an argument that can be made that lithium batteries charge easier than AGM batteries and do not have to go to 100% SOC. And AGM batteries get hard to charge in that last 5-10%. And not getting the AGM batteries all the way to 100% is not good for maintaining capacity over time. So if you do a lot of off grid camping (fishing) then from a system point of view Lithiums might have a performance and operational advantage.
This choice is one only you can put a value on.
Bob, weather or not an RV manufacturer installs something or not makes no difference. We are talking about basically an unregulated industry, no construction standards, no fire codes, overweight vehicles before they leave the lot. As to weather a higher voltage panel is legal in n an RV who you going to ask, in the above non standard industry. Just saying. Oops sorry to head off topic. Deca, East Penn, O'REILLYs AGMs have been working for us for 5 years and still going.
So some of us are on a budget for what ever reason. so say 1500 for 3 AGMS that take care of our needs for say 6 years (at least), with no up grade of existing charging equipment. Verses 3-4K in lithium+ up grading charging equipment say 3K or so, and at the end of the day they still do the same thing my AGMs do, for my needs. All the the 10 year warranty, and 5000 cycle stuff remains to be seen. Not saying lithium is the Not cat's meow, but lead acid batteries have been working for years, shoot many 6volt golf cart batteries are going strong in RVs. Just my point of view, as always your $$$ DWMYFG and makes you happy.
We have been using the O'Reilly's for 5 years now. No issues so far.
As far as asking someone that's a good point. RVIA or your insurance carrier might be good starting points?
Home stuff on rv? Any codes? The manufacturer question relates to legalities that they may have researched.
Can you order a high powered residential solar panel system on any new coach?
Do not take this wrong. I am in favor of putting on a much larger solar system on our coach.
That and adding the gen auto start also based on temps come to mind.
Oriley start and coach batteries. 2 1/2 years and strong
OK
(3) O'Reilley 8ds 250 ah agm $455 or
(4) or (6)? 6 v 225 ah flooded batteries Trojan $193 ea Interstate $ 162 ea
Currently have (3) Lifelines
How about differences in recharge time? A buddy suggested separating (4) banks in order to "rundown" one bank at a time for faster recharge time, using an a, b or ab switch
I keep hoping on, then falling off the lithium wagon. I just would like to make the best, intelligent decision here.
I could "muddy the waters" here and talk about Forest River 6v agms......4 for a our $2500
Comments?
Your money your choice. However I would never put a wet cell battery in a closed compartment. Let one boil over and see what a real mess is. Some folks do and that's their choice. If you where going to keep the coach for many more years and you Boondock a bunch, and you have 3-4k laying around lithium is the way to go.
No numbers. How much of the original capacity is left after how many cycles, years...
A lot less useful without measurements.
Please
FOXWELL BT705 12V 24V Battery Load Tester Analyzer for Cars and Heavy Duty... (https://www.ebay.com/itm/FOXWELL-BT705-12V-24V-Battery-Load-Tester-Analyzer-for-Cars-and-Heavy-Duty-Truck-/184273592210)
Remove cabling. Test each battery. Help us all?
Separating the banks would seem to run into the same 85-90% to 100% double the run time it took to get from 50% to 85-90%?
My old freedom 25's owner manual mentions this issue so it recommends going from 50% max to 85% to reduce gen run time.
You large solar guys can quit reading now.
Other than large solar and sun power the only way to not damage/wear the batteries is either gels, li-ion, Lifelines and/or desulfurization electronics.
Thank you Bob, Interesting meter, if only it was that easy. Gives me something to do now, and research, battery testing. Definitely easier than running a test the way Lifeline and Roger sugest, however, Lifeline calls these and other testers, "not reliable."
I felt the best review of that meter is by ODCaveman review at the end of the following AmZon link.
Amazon.com: Battery Tester FOXWELL BT705 Automotive 100-2000 CCA Battery... (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01ANF1D7U/ref=cm_sw_r_em_apa_i_SASREb0P3XKX8)
How to test Capacity (From Lifeline Technical publication)
"To determine the actual capacity of a Lifeline® AGM battery relative to its rated capacity, a full
discharge test should be performed. Although there are various battery testers available on the
market, such as carbon pile testers, impedance meters, conductance meters, and others, these
testers are not reliable in determining the battery's actual capacity. To determine the battery's
actual capacity relative to its rated capacity, use the following procedure:
1.
Stabilize the battery at 68-86°F (20-30°C) for at least 24 hours.
2.
Bring the battery to full charge as described in Sections 5.4, 5.5 or 5.6 as applicable.
3.
Discharge the battery at a constant current of 25 amperes until the voltage falls to 10.5
volts (5.25 volts for a 6 Volt battery). Record the discharge time in minutes.
4.
Compare the measured discharge time to the published 25A rating (reserve capacity
minutes) for the battery.
5.
If the battery delivers less than 80% of the rated capacity the conditioning procedure
given in Section 5.5 should be attempted and the battery capacity should be retested.
6.
If the battery delivers less than 50% of its rated capacity, it should be replaced.
However, the user should determine the amount of capacity needed for their particular
application and adjust the pass/fail threshold accordingly."
All good information, and interesting. But at the end day if the batteries take care of you needs great. When they quit doing that you need new ones. Your choice what kind, and how you charge them. One person opinion is just that an opinion, your pocket book and your need dictates what you purchase.
Never split the bank imo. Use one large bank.
As far as wet cells vs AGM/ gell cells, there's a reason why they invented the sealed battery. For our applications, a sealed battery is the way to go. Unless you want to mess with wet cells.
Sure the cost is lower but the hassle is higher.
Some may disagree.
But to reiterate the charging cycle of lead acid batteries can be a real hassle in my opinion. The time it takes to charge, The voltage drop with pulling large amount of amps out of it, in fact all those some companies have left out in the difficulty in charging them 100%. All left me with the desire to switch to a lithium. of course I may be biased because my started out in boats and to me lithiums were the bee's knees for that application. Going to coach's I continued with that mindset. As many others have shown AGM and/or gel cell batteries work just fine for their applications. If I didn't go with lithiums I'd probably would have went with the AGMs, although the case for gel cells is good.
I've had the Pixel 3 phone for a while now. When I plug it in it's fully charged in an hour or less. My older phones took hours to charge. And the battery had many fewer cycles.
To me it's all about the cycles. Remember with any lead acid technology you're really looking at about a 50% cycle rate. But with some technologies including wet cell, it's very difficult to get to that 100%. So then you're really dealing with only about 40% of capacity to get the most amount of cycles out of that battery. Of course you can cycle it more than 50% but you'll see a significant drop in the number of cycles that battery will deliver. Which means that you're going to be replacing it more often. That means lugging 80 to 160 lb or more in and out more frequently. on the coach that may not be as big of an issue since the battery compartment is just a door open away. On a boat where the batteries could be down in the bilge little bit different. so if you are not full-time or you are but have a good solar array on the roof or you plug in frequently then it's not an issue. If all you're looking for is a day or two unplugged using all your stuff then battery array that you're looking at will be much different than if you're spending 14 days out in the boonies unplugged. As others have pointed out they can always start their generator, that's what it's there for right? But if you don't want to use your generator often and it does seem like a big waste to just charge batteries a different system is needed.
So in the end it really depends on what your individual needs are. How do you use your coach how you plan to charge.
https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=37876.0;attach=85450
Actually this is what I am using to test two batteries at the same time, adjustable load up to 20 amps. Requires a separate 12volt plus or minus 5% power supply,
Not available any more from the Canadian seller. Lab grade product.
Used them to verify the 4patriots actual power capacities. Showed 55 amp hours to get them to 12 volt.
Here is the powerwerks in line measuring gauge
Powerwerx Watt Meter, DC Inline Power Analyzer, 45A Continuous, 12 Gauge,... (https://powerwerx.com/watt-meter-analyzer-inline-dc-powerpole)
You supply the 12volt load and Anderson cabling
Bob,
What circuits are you "powering" through that device? Temporary/troubleshooting or permanent? Kind of like a very limited capacity shunt.
The adjustable load bank.
Could only find the 100 watt version here
DC 12V DC Load Yester, Electronic Load Battery Capacity Tester Module, 0-10A... (https://www.amazon.com/Electronic-Capacity-Intelligent-Constant-Discharge/dp/B078TZKDV9)
Mine pictured are 250 watt.
All that makes my head hurt
As does posting battery life's info without any measurements.
Some if not most here take their coaches into some kind of shop where they measure the batteries condition on a quick handheld unit.
Versus the slower recommended way.
$1200-$2000+ worth of batteries involved. The better part of a load bank with a recording gauge is to do it during the batteries life starting at 15 cycles just to see how they are holding up.
I would hate to REALLY need the batteries to be good in an emergency and find out that they were not able to perform
Found the 250 watt unit
Electronic Load, 12V 250W 0-20A Discharge Board Burn-in Module for Battery... (https://www.amazon.com/Electronic-Discharge-Module-Battery-Capacity/dp/B07XLMQ6HC)
While not an absolute measure of battery capacity, a carbon pile load tester is in my opinion, a pretty good indicator of battery health. I don't need the exact numbers down to 10th of an amp hour... what's more if all four of my 8D AGM O'Reilly house bank test within five percent or so of each other while disconnected and fully charged, I feel they are close enough to be equally yoked. These AGM's were always meant to be a place holder until I decide to lithium-up (or dilithium crystals :D ) or whatever tech looks best. I followed Foliver's posts on the Newel Guru's forum when he put in the 1000AH Balqon bank. At that time, they were about a dollar an amp hour and had I not so many other needs at the time, I would have gone for it. As it turned out, Balqon's price went up about 20% instead of going down and then they apparently stopped their US Retail business. C'est la vie... I have a 1000AMP carbon pile tester, while not nearly as compact as the hand held electronic units, I feel they give a better real world indication.
Don
Bob, I agree with you 100%. The following video shows the Battle Born, Liion, and Ruixu being tested. I've posted this video, for those that do not understand what you are saying. Because of this video Liion changed the model number of their battery from 1300 to 1100.
Most will not want to test their batteries this way, it still does not change the fact that, as Lifeline says, this is the the only way to reliably test battery capacity: 25 amp load till battery is at 10.5 volts. Reserve capacity for new Lifeline is 550 minutes, 9.16 hrs. Reserve capacity for new Oriellys AGM8D, 517 minutes, 8.6 hrs.
This Will Prouse solar YouTube video for 5 batteries took approx. 3 days, 5 hrs each, 25 hrs., condensed in to a 20 minute video. So...Don's approx $200 tester in his above post, definitely has it's place.
https://youtu.be/pNgUSpkzYl4
What is the best price you have gotten on the oreilley AGM 8D? Its time for new batteries in my boat and these might be the ticket if I can get em cheap enough. The current flooded 8Ds wont start the engine anymore without using the boost combiner.
Around $450. less 10% military disc. $22. core if you don't have 8d's to turn in.
Keep on testing. I test my batteries by using them right regularly. As always DWMYFG.
Most owners told me "never gave me no problem." My guru guy and I cringed as that meant watch out.
My sole point is that they still hold some charge after so many years is not much help to someone asking how they hold up.
Like my engine still runs. It's badly worn but still runs.
Like I mentioned here and from the mk engineer lots of 12 year oem gel life stories.
If you paid half and got half life that's even. But at some point the capacities were down a lot.
Versus li-ion and gels and Lifelines keeping their capacities much longer.
Pedestal to pedestal or large solar lessens the capacity needs
Carbon pile did not work at low amp draws
Don't most conventional and AGMs make it that long? Our conventional engine batteries made it 10 and our AGMs are going strong at 11 years.
Pierce
Pierce do you have any data on percentage of capacity left?
No, one of the conventional engine batteries had a bad cell but before that, the 3 batteries started the coach fine in all seasons. Wth one exception, our conventional car batteries always last 8 or 9 years without being connected to a charger. The AGM house batteries have never been flattened and run the OEM inverter fine. After I installed them, I blow off the tops with an air hose ever couple of years and that is about it. As long as they run the big TV, etc. and then the microwave/latte maker in the morning, I don't pay much attention to it. Have never had to start the generator yet because the voltage was low. I do keep both banks at 13.2 - 13.5V all the time.
They came from a bankrupt company back then and I expect a lot bankrupt companies in the very near future. Not clapping my hands but unfortunately, it's going to happen.
Solar panel prices are the cheapest they have ever been. Aside from the battery deals this week, I just noticed new Yingli 305 watt panels were on CL for $130. This is the same brand as ours, a commercial panel the same width but quite a bit shorter with even more watts. I'm sure quite a bit lighter too as our panels weigh over 65 lbs each.
Pierce
Pierce's past post shows he is extremely aware of his electronics and his batteries meeting his needs. In previous posts he has stated his six, 11 year old, 68 ah AGMs give him 408ah of capacity, have never been run flat, and are kept between 13.2 to 13.5 volts. His are probably equal to the highest quality AGMs available, and have had the best of care. https://www.osibatteries.com/p-997.aspx?searchEngineName=enersys-genesis-pure-lead-xe70x-0771-6003-battery-68ah-w-metal-jacket&gclid=CjkKEQjwm_2aBRCpivfn94X-o7IBEiQAuhGjMqTN-OVKRmxP4QfXHAQk0Rv3J2OT9PhSsIkUnUx8wIvw_wcB He loves to dry camp, even shuts off his inverter at night to maximize capacity. He has a $700 Midnight Solar 150 controller fed by almost 1200 watts of panels on the roof. He enjoys a lot of dry camping. He understands maintenance and the importance of monitoring batteries. He has stated his microwave runs slow in the morning, possibly indicating weaker batteries, posibly not. However if he is happy having his microwave run slow in the morning, heating his water and food, and uses primarily solar to extend capacity, who is to say he needs new batteries. He also stated he doesn't run his gen often, as he hates the noise and exhaust. He also is still running on the original OEM imodified sine wave nverter from 1993, that he shuts off at night to extend capacity. The original inverter will run a microwave at a reduced capacity compared to a newer pure sign wave inverter.
I've seen coaches come in trade that originally had two 8D AGMs, come in with only one. I asked the owner where it went? The owner stated "oh, I pulled the other one out 5 years ago, it shorted out. This Lifeline is only 8 years old, and is all I need." How can you argue with that owner, you cannot. You just say ok, and put in two new Lifelines before it is resold.
So what I am saying is, Pierce is very knowledgeable, much more than most, probably knows more about electrical than myself and you combined. His batteries serve him fine. We know if he replaced those batteries with new, and replaced the OEM modified sine wave inverter with a pure sine wave, that his microwave might not run as slow in the morning. If his microwave heats his water or food in the morning, without running the generator, he is happy, who is to say he is not right?
I only posted this because I read both of your posts whenever you two post, I enjoy reading both. It is my belief that Pierce enjoys playing devil's advocate for the sake of argument. I too would be proud of using 10 year old AGMs that I had so safely guarded. I also know it will be most unlikely, that either I or you will change his mind. You both, consistently have your point of view, based on your needs and past experience. Please, do not ever change, either of you. You guys are what make this forum great. The combined experience of Pierce, you, and I is awesum. Add the forum members, like Rodger, craneman, Tim, wolf10, John, George, Chuck, PWyatt, Barry, Don, Lon, Juston Cook of Bay Marine, and others, we are colossal.
For years I have said, half of what you hear on the web is wrong, including what I say. It is not that I or others lie, it is just that our needs, and our experiences will vary from yours. So.......do your research, read and listen to what others say. Just remember that half of that may be wrong for you.
Do your research, make your choices, write the check, it is your money, only you know your needs and budget.
Thanks Jack, my fingers are tired thinking about the typing you did in your post. Glad you mentioned some of the bright guys on the forum. Don't forget Ken Hathaway as he is right up at the top. Have to say that I'm envious of the knowledge so many have when I talk to them. You have to have that for a forum like this or run a government, otherwise, chaos results.
Microwaves always runs slow on a modified/quasi sine wave inverter. Not just the morning but all the time. They need the 170 volt peaks that pure sine wave gives to run properly. So, even though your AC voltmeter shows 120V at the receptacle, it does not show the waveform. A RMS voltmeter reads "root mean square" an average. That's why unless you have a sine wave inverter, your MW will always run slower.
When I bought my first RV, I wondered why the MW was so slow when on inverter juice compared to when I used the generator or plugged into shore power. Here is a good read below from someone that explains much better than I do.
https://www.compwest.com/image/catalog/Library/hudhipotpaper.pdf
About 6 months ago, I received a pure sine wave inverter from China. Have not had time to install it but I thought I would do a comparison test of the OEM inverter against the new SW inverter against shore power and post the results with boiling a half cup of water, etc.
Pierce
I need a margarita!!!! :o O:) :-X
I'll take one as well. I had no idea that I had to have a lab coat on, Aluminum clipboard in hand and a scientific degree to "go camping" :)) 8) It's all good though. Do what works for you and what you can afford.
I like your "Do what works for you and what you can afford." I always try to do the best for the least expense and without re-inventing the wheel. It's not necessarily what you can afford but what you budget for your projects. Some, with fewer hobbies, just pull out the CC. Others, for one reason or another, are looking for more economy but not poor quality in solar, filters, batteries, etc and how to find these items at the best possible prices.
I don't think Jack L or I meant to ruffle feathers here. It's just everyone has their strengths, some of us have been in the trenches for much of our lives and didn't try to make the transition from a big desk to a RV DIY person. Anyone remember Gil Stratton's famous saying?
Save the margaritas for tomorrow, Cinco de Mayo! Can't wait for the border to open again.
Pierce
No ruffling going on at all. And that goes for my musings as well. I'm always curious and one to ask why? Esp as I'm new(ish) to this RV thing.
So I actually find it interesting and informative in the why of folks spending cb's and lots of labor to not use the Genset. Are folks worried about wearing it out?
If one is boondocking, Noise shouldn't be the main issue. Should it?
Oh well. Not unexpected.
I have contributed to a large brand specific/ model specific motorcycle board for almost 20 years.
The riders/owners posted "it still runs ok" then ask carb jetting questions.
I explained that the only way to correctly answer their questions was to have them run a $50 leakdown test to show how much wear and poor sealing that results from it had occurred to their motor so I could advise them more correctly on the carb brass parts needed.
The solar panel use for a lot of owners here lessens the non full recharge effects that can damage AGM and flooded cell batteries.
We want/need as close to 100% capacity as possible for our partial prepper needs here in shaky town in southern Kalifornia.
Where we live and have the coach in a real emergency there is no way out of here for an extended period.
Very few here have a need/want like us it seems. Good for them.
We assume no power. No water. No exit.
I think if most of you HAD to have known good equipment in an emergency you would test your setup every so often and maybe upgrade your setup for the longest life and most reliability.
Maybe or maybe not.
I used to work on airplanes and everything on and in them was proactively checked and/or replaced.
So for us being proactive and needing for sure condition the $150 worth of test equipment seemed reasonable.
My guru buddy mentioned to me at the time he installed a Xantrex power pro gauge that almost all the owners set the gauge to show the percentage screen and has little or no interest in the charge rates or discharge rates or settings or condition unless they had not enough power.
A few of the motorcycle boards riders caught on about the test for condition altering the jetting and noticed the much crisper running better starting and gas mileage range that resulted.
Most just wanted to go riding.
Regular testing each year can result in less on the road problems in my experience.
Like I mentioned once or twice before I came from the 1980's in the rv biz. Flooded cells. Hydrometer battery checks. Over charging from near single stage chargers, damaged cabling from the acid fumes.
Old habits are harder to break I guess.
The bad thing for me I guess is once I learned exactly what I am supposed to see from amp hours used versus battery voltage it's hard not to notice any major variations.
Maybe better not to know?
Too important here where we would be basically locked in after a emergency.
I am just a rv nerd. Setup hundreds of customers personally for the best rv experience long ago.
The money was pennies compared to late model high line coaches.
I agree on solar as I was the first dealer to install a small solar panel on every coach sold starting in 1987. 32 watts
We were skiers and remote area dirt bike dry campers and needed new condition systems and batteries.
No pedestal to pedestal. No large solar. Propane gens that used a gallon an hour with a 58 gallon tank.
Times change and so does the setups available.
Good luck to all here.
BigDog,
Noise is the huge issue to me. Both Gaylie and I have tinnitus and much noise drives us crazy. The vibration also is very annoying. I also don't like the smell. I love to step out of the coach in the morning to silence. Night around the bad carbon footprint campfire is ruined if I can hear a generator. Laughing children is great, even a boombox playing Salsa at a distance is good, just no generator. Check our member location map. Only one neighbor and I'm going to shoot out his sodium vapor nightlight!
Everything is going electric, cars, trucks, even small planes are starting to look that direction. Everywhere you look, skate boards are electrics, bicycles to with shopping baskets on the back. You probably have read about California's PG&Es scandal. I've despised this company since we moved up here back in 1987. Now blackouts with no juice for days on top of Death Valley heat, no fire insurance, virus, etc are driving everyone crazy. With the cheap prices on solar panels now, going off the grid is my next wish, perhaps in the next life.
As somewhat of an expat here, I love European campgrounds with only a few Eurospec generators but mostly quiet. After 2 pm on Saturday, you can't run a lawnmower in Germany until Monday.
As far as experts go, anyone who has been to Mexico/Canada is an expert, Glenn, Twig, John, Brett, Dan, etc. The more recent, the better. Been to Yellowstone lately? Expert. How about a good restaurant or campgound on I-40? Expert! To me, that's who I listen to and have my writing paper out to jot down the info. But, a big bank balance and high limit CC alone is not a qualifier.
So no, you don't need a white coat to be a positive addition to the forum. Just some first hand experience without any "wives' tales" added in.
Bob, That's exactly why I have the twin voltmeters on the dash and the Pro-Link 9000 to watch the engine operation, efficiency. I can tell well ahead of time if something is about to go south. (not SoCal :D ) Driving with Michelins, you must have AAA and CoachNet on constant standby. :D :D :D Just kidding Bob, no harm intended. Enjoy Cinco de Mayo with Pati Jinich's guac receipe:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8Rl1Zo8Scg
Pierce
My O'Reilly AGM's were down 30% after 5 years when I replaced them.
Thanks Brett. About what I expected.
As far as the Michelin's "you pay for everyone of your pleasures. "And if you did not pay as much it probably was not as much fun, was it?"
Every unicoach made had Michelin's
How did you measure, down 30%?
WHERE did tires come from, in a battery discussion.!!!! Hope we don't go down the tire and wheel bearing road again.😬
We could do the big wheels rolling song, But with Roman numerals. But yes. Should be in another thread.
Rv'ers are notoriously frugal. Really?
In my enlightened self interest for maximizing my profit for the company I learned not to cut corners refitting nice coaches for resale.
That way I could walk a customer over from a new coach to a late model used with the same tires, batteries and furniture.
alot easier switch. Different idea versus something that just works.
If I were to sell ours it would have the full auto start with temp control added in.
Just like the newer coaches the buyer might have already looked at.
Way easier to buy a coach already done for most buyers.
Ready to go
Bob can you get a temperature control for the generator. In the cold I cycle the start so the glow plugs will be on later.
Temp control? For the auto start?
[quote a
If I were to sell ours it would have the full auto start with temp control added in.
I saw this where you said temp control add in so I thought maybe the temp control could be an upgrade.
Yes you can. Magnum makes a stand alone ME-AGS and a much more comprehensive unit that is designed to interface with the ME-ARC remote control panel.
The N(networked) version I know comes with a 60' remote thermostat to install in the coach.
My understanding is that if you change to a 10 button ac control panel and change the roof air conditioners circuit boards that the auto gen start can work from both battery state of charge and either hot or cold temps at any of the systems sensors.
Quite comprehensive with gen exercise timing, gen run hours, auto gen retries....
System can have a WiFi capable system report added to the Magnum inverter/control
If you do not have a magnum system the stand along has some if not all of the networked ones features.
If you're asking whether the Magnum AGS system will automatically change the generator glow plug warmup time based on temperature....longer pre-heat in colder weather, etc....no, the pre-heat is user selectable but not determined by temperature. You can manually change the setting in the winter or summer though. It will, however, start the generator to run your AC units based on the air temperature inside the coach as Caflashbob described.
Yes not auto temp adjustable. I think the later gens in a box may have that adjustment in their system?
The auto gen start can retry up to 4 times.
I think the gen preheat time is adjustable in the ME-ARC menu.
Default is 25 seconds but is adjustable up to 120? seconds
I am not aware of any damage for slightly long glow plug actuation so maybe turn the time up to what is needed for winter start?
Good question
My rig came with a Magnum inverter which I installed but I haven't hooked up the auto gen start. I haven't used the auto gen
start since I got the rig home. I have only used the push button to start it and in the cold I wait 9 seconds push the button and
then push it again and it starts fine. I will look into changing the start time to 20 seconds in the winter. That would be a great
option. The Onan that I had before would time the glow plugs according to temp.
Glow longer at high altitude and low temps.
Pierce