Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Discussions => Topic started by: Running Odometer on May 18, 2020, 11:44:51 pm
Title: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Running Odometer on May 18, 2020, 11:44:51 pm
Long time lurker here.
I have been looking really hard for a foretravel bus.
Recently I have chance to buy a 1991 Grand Villa for $4000 or maybe lower It has 130K miles 6V92T diesel engine Air ride
It is sitting for about 4 years. The tire needs to be replaced for sure.
I am torn between buy it or not.
One side tell me that it is going to take too much effort to maintain or fix it.
The other side saying heck just $4000. If it doesn't work out, so what.
Is it worth it? I am afraid it needs too much work to be road ready. What could be the biggest item to fix for rig at this age.
Thanks in advance for any of your suggestion.
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Pamela & Mike on May 19, 2020, 07:00:23 am
Would this happen to be the coach that is in Tatum, TX? If so I have looked at it some time ago.
Mike
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: trailertrashrick on May 19, 2020, 07:25:05 am
This will be fun. You'll get lots of opinions here and none of us will agree. We're all wrong, because we're not you. It's a very personal decision based on what you want out of it:
a mostly static camping platform or a road warrior?
a beginner Foretravel that you can craft to be your own or a cheap RV?
is it close to being what you already want?
are you an obsessive and innovative DIYer who stays up into the night working on projects or do you need to take everything to a mechanic?
Having sat for four years, $4K is just your entry point and it's probably the least interesting of your costs to make it travel. It will immediately cost you another $2-4K for fluids and filters all around -- less if you do it yourself -- and probably $4K for tires. Engine and transmission are your two big ticket items, but are usually the most long lasting. It's the 1000 $15 to $100 items that you need to be prepared for in an old coach. If you want to hit the road, bring an experienced Foretravel inspector with you.
If you just need to move it out to some land where it becomes your cabin, it's probably not too much more than the initial $4K. You can fix things as you get to them.
Either way, you'll likely need to change out the fridge, or at least the cooling unit, as they become a fire hazard late in life.
It could be sitting because of a life change (death, illness, job change, etc.) or because it's basically totaled due to some fatal flaw and not worth fixing.
I LOVE old RVs and love working on them. My $33K Foretravel was probably financially foolish, but I've never spent better money on anything that I can remember. I'm planning to replace my coolant, transmission fluid, and four rear shocks next week. I'm actually looking forward to it.
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Johnstons on May 19, 2020, 08:07:25 am
If you ever sit in that drivers seat and look DOWN at the truckers you pass, nothing else will ever be quite the same. They are so much fun to drive.
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Travelin' Man (RIP) on May 19, 2020, 08:21:49 am
Four-Grand or less? If nothing else you could buy it and part it out, make some money and learn a lot while waiting for the right bus to come along.
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: stump on May 19, 2020, 08:29:39 am
Check the bulkheads before going any further. Check under battery box and under water tanks and along rear. Check front bulkhead . If the hidden chassis potential issues look good. It might make you a real nice camper. Are you a hands on guy or a don't have a clue leave it to you sort? Are you expecting pristine outcome or can you overlook the fluff.
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on May 19, 2020, 08:34:59 am
I've seen lots worse exterior condition on coaches that are being used every day by full-timers. Other than faded decals, it looks pretty decent!
Have you been inside the coach? The interior condition would be of more interest to me. That's where you live. Look for signs of water leaks in the ceiling and walls. Water intrusion anywhere is bad - leads to rot and mold.
How does it smell inside? Looks to be stored where it's kinda humid, so a musty rotting smell inside would be bad.
Condition of furniture and appliances? If you can live with the original stuff, at least for a while, that is good. Completely replacing everything is very expensive, but you can do it a little at a time to spread out the cost.
Do you know anything about RV electric and plumbing systems? Electrical problems, if any, can be difficult to track down and fix. Plumbing problems not so hard, but like I said, water leakage inside the coach MUST be avoided.
A complete inspection by a knowledgeable Foretravel owner would be strongly advised.
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Running Odometer on May 19, 2020, 09:12:46 am
Would this happen to be the coach that is in Tatum, TX? If so I have looked at it some time ago.
Mike
No, it is not in Tatum, TX.
Did you buy that GV?
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Journey, Roam, Explore on May 19, 2020, 09:16:09 am
Agreed. An inspection by a current or former owner would be strongly advised. this could either be an incredible deal or an incredible blunder. The asking price is minimal compared to the total price that you will pay out. you have to go over the systems and see what's repairable, what works great, and what doesn't. Only you can decide if this is something you're willing to take on or not. It could be a gem just sitting there waiting to be plucked. One thing is for sure. Foretravel makes a great coach. If well maintain it can last a long time. You just need to decide now whether or not this one is maintained enough. Good luck
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Carol Savournin on May 19, 2020, 09:22:15 am
Motorcade numbers are blanked out. If we knew those, we might be able to give you some history on previous owners.
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Running Odometer on May 19, 2020, 09:30:05 am
This will be fun. You'll get lots of opinions here and none of us will agree. We're all wrong, because we're not you. It's a very personal decision based on what you want out of it:
a mostly static camping platform or a road warrior?
a beginner Foretravel that you can craft to be your own or a cheap RV?
is it close to being what you already want?
are you an obsessive and innovative DIYer who stays up into the night working on projects or do you need to take everything to a mechanic?
Having sat for four years, $4K is just your entry point and it's probably the least interesting of your costs to make it travel. It will immediately cost you another $2-4K for fluids and filters all around -- less if you do it yourself -- and probably $4K for tires. Engine and transmission are your two big ticket items, but are usually the most long lasting. It's the 1000 $15 to $100 items that you need to be prepared for in an old coach. If you want to hit the road, bring an experienced Foretravel inspector with you.
If you just need to move it out to some land where it becomes your cabin, it's probably not too much more than the initial $4K. You can fix things as you get to them.
Either way, you'll likely need to change out the fridge, or at least the cooling unit, as they become a fire hazard late in life.
It could be sitting because of a life change (death, illness, job change, etc.) or because it's basically totaled due to some fatal flaw and not worth fixing.
I LOVE old RVs and love working on them. My $33K Foretravel was probably financially foolish, but I've never spent better money on anything that I can remember. I'm planning to replace my coolant, transmission fluid, and four rear shocks next week. I'm actually looking forward to it.
Thanks for you detailed information.
This is not my ideal coach. I like a 2000is U320. I think I am pretty good DIYer. Although most experience come from maintaining my car and issues around the house. So if I bought it, I plan to do most of the maintenance by myself. And like you, I am kind of looking forward to it :D .
The coaching was lived in full time by previous owner. So the functionality of the living space should be roughly working.
Buying a coach is never a sound financial decision. It is for fun.
Agreed. An inspection by a current or former owner would be strongly advised. this could either be an incredible deal or an incredible blunder. The asking price is minimal compared to the total price that you will pay out. you have to go over the systems and see what's repairable, what works great, and what doesn't. Only you can decide if this is something you're willing to take on or not. It could be a gem just sitting there waiting to be plucked. One thing is for sure. Foretravel makes a great coach. If well maintain it can last a long time. You just need to decide now whether or not this one is maintained enough. Good luck
I've seen lots worse exterior condition on coaches that are being used every day by full-timers. Other than faded decals, it looks pretty decent!
Have you been inside the coach? The interior condition would be of more interest to me. That's where you live. Look for signs of water leaks in the ceiling and walls. Water intrusion anywhere is bad - leads to rot and mold.
How does it smell inside? Looks to be stored where it's kinda humid, so a musty rotting smell inside would be bad.
Condition of furniture and appliances? If you can live with the original stuff, at least for a while, that is good. Completely replacing everything is very expensive, but you can do it a little at a time to spread out the cost.
Do you know anything about RV electric and plumbing systems? Electrical problems, if any, can be difficult to track down and fix. Plumbing problems not so hard, but like I said, water leakage inside the coach MUST be avoided.
A complete inspection by a knowledgeable Foretravel owner would be strongly advised.
Haven't look at inside yet. I don't expect it is better than you described. I will pay close attention to water damage.
Check the bulkheads before going any further. Check under battery box and under water tanks and along rear. Check front bulkhead . If the hidden chassis potential issues look good. It might make you a real nice camper. Are you a hands on guy or a don't have a clue leave it to you sort? Are you expecting pristine outcome or can you overlook the fluff.
Do you have any picture to point where the bulkheads is and what to check? Thanks
I don't expect pristine outcome. It would be financially impossible to bring this coach to pristine condition. A clean mechanically sound coach is what I expect.
If you ever sit in that drivers seat and look DOWN at the truckers you pass, nothing else will ever be quite the same. They are so much fun to drive.
A lot people suggest to buy a Trailer, but just for this reason alone, trailer can't compare with Diesel RV.
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on May 19, 2020, 10:28:00 am
Be looking for this sort of thing: I missed it when I inspected the coach and it could have done some very serious (expensive!) damage. :facepalm: A good reason to run the on-board water pump every once in a while; that's how I found this!
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: craneman on May 19, 2020, 11:16:42 am
If you search bulkheads on the forum and can see images of where to look for problems and there aren't any and from inside you don't see any signs of roof leakage, and it starts and builds air, my opinion would be buy it. If it were here in So. Cal. I would buy it myself.
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Pamela & Mike on May 19, 2020, 11:17:35 am
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: JohnFitz on May 19, 2020, 11:19:53 am
I have a 91 U300 40 footer. This is definitely a a DIY project or you will have to spend $10,000's to have a shop do it all. Aside from batteries, air bags, tires, upholstery, exterior cleanup, expect electrical connections that have corrosion resistance build up (especially ground connections) that will need to be redone. The list of possible "needs" will seem endless but we all pick what is "necessary" and what we can "live with". If your not excited about working on it then this is not for you.
What would kill the deal for me is if there was a roof or window leak with rusting, rotting wood and mold of the wood and steel structure. This is different from condensation staining which I would expect in various places inside. When water gets inside roof and walls delamination occurs and rusting steel swells causing bulging in the sidewalls - this kind of damage is very difficult to repair. The roof framing is aluminum and the wall framing is steel. I would expect rusting in the bulkhead area and a repair there would be needed but this is very do-able and well documented in the forum. I went to the extreme in my repair but this gives you an idea of how it's put together: Bulkhead Repair (Partial Floor Replacement) (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=31694.msg280564#msg280564)
Another thing to check for is rodent damage. If they chew up wiring it's very time consuming to repair.
This model year is very simple: no HWH electronics for leveling (it has a mechanical system that works well), no hydraulic radiator fans (old fashioned belt drive fan with a rear radiator) and of, course no slides to worry about. In '92 they went to 102" wide body, 350hp (vs 300hp), side radiator with hydraulic fans, and a HWH leveling system.
The power train is likely to be just fine as long as it wasn't parked because of it (as in they overheated it or maintenance was so poor they damaged it). It might need a new radiator and if the original fan has not been changed from fiberglass to plastic that should be done. The suspensions on these units are rarely a problem but new shocks might be needed (but they are adjustable). Fuel line replacements are talked about a lot but on in this vintage they rarely need it - mine are still original.
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on May 19, 2020, 11:30:35 am
Check the bulkheads before going any further. Check under battery box and under water tanks and along rear. Check front bulkhead . If the hidden chassis potential issues look good. It might make you a real nice camper. Are you a hands on guy or a don't have a clue leave it to you sort? Are you expecting pristine outcome or can you overlook the fluff.
Twig has it exactly. $4000 is nothing for a U300 and you could park it as a guest house in worst case. The 6V-92TA Detroit is my favorite engine but the little chassis stuff will keep you busy on any older RV. Yes, trailers are the least expensive way to go but as posted above, there is nothing like looking down at the tallest trucks when you go by. We love our U300 and would buy this one in a second at the price. You can't expect a perfect coach for what they are asking. Batteries can cost a bunch but not as much as you might expect if you look on Craigslist or FB Marketplace. Be resourceful and it will be a lifetime of memories but if you have pull your credit card at every problem, you will be an unhappy camper.
If you can't do most of your own work, you have no business buying an RV if on a budget. Keep that in mind. If the oil is changed and radiator in good shape, the two-cycle will last forever and get good fuel economy. While the engine/trans package is the most important, the bulkhead, air bags, water leaks, etc, etc are going to keep you busy.
We bought a SOB for $500 with only 27K miles and had not been driven in over 20 years. It looked much, much worse than the one you are interested in. After a little elbow grease, we took it to Canada along with several trips to Baja and mainland Mexico as well as many trips to our favorite campsites in the Sierras. Lots of great memories.
I will say that in eleven plus years of U300 ownership, other than the upgrades and a couple of airbags, there has been NO $10,000 to get it into shape and not even one coach buck spent on failed components. The big expenses have been insurance and diesel fuel. Lots of miles and lots of fuel.
Pierce
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Old Toolmaker on May 19, 2020, 01:02:04 pm
If we had seen something like this a year ago we would have gone and looked at it in person. We've dealt with antique vehicles all our lives so far and understand that you pay one way or another. Our preference is to purchase something solid and do all of the necessary deferred maintenance ourselves that way whe know what has been done and are pretty sure the work was done correctly with good materials. What we look for in a motorhome is water damage. Water damage is a deal breaker. Any more than the most minimal sign of water intrusion into the interior means a polite exit. The framework under the cargo bays, well it's best if that part doesn't need work but is is simple enough to repair, but still runs into money. If the engine isn't covered in oil it's probably okay. But if it were my money I'm want to see or make it run before I stated counting out cash. I want to make sure it can move under its own power and stop. I want the suspension to raise the coach off the stops. If it does all that, and I had another $10,000 in my left pocket, I'd reach into my right pocket and start counting out hundreds. Force of habit would cause me to slow down at some point and switch to twenties. Just because it never hurts to try.
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: juicesqueezer on May 19, 2020, 06:09:18 pm
Depends on where this coach is located and have been for most all of it's life. If up north, in the salt country, I would pass, but south or out west, what a nice rig to tinker with. If we had a place with a garage to put coach in, would not be afraid to jump on this one! The Detroit is a great engine and this coach doesn't look to bad. Depends on how much you can do yourself and feel comfortable with. All in the details! Good luck with you choices!
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: nitehawk on May 19, 2020, 11:06:09 pm
We live up here in "salt country" but I will put our coach frame up against anyone else's frame. Our coach either goes in to storage around Halloween (long before snow and salt weather) or we head south for the winter. Lon at HWH said our coach undercarriage looked like it just came new from the Foretravel Plant. I would think there are more coaches that have gone the same route, so just because a coach is up in "salt country" doesn't mean that it is a wreck because of salt. It may never have seen salted roads.
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: kevo0000 on May 20, 2020, 05:05:13 am
We live up here in "salt country" but I will put our coach frame up against anyone else's frame. Our coach either goes in to storage around Halloween (long before snow and salt weather) or we head south for the winter. Lon at HWH said our coach undercarriage looked like it just came new from the Foretravel Plant. I would think there are more coaches that have gone the same route, so just because a coach is up in "salt country" doesn't mean that it is a wreck because of salt. It may never have seen salted roads.
Since I've been working on mine I've pain stakingly cleaned virtually all of underneath and sprayed with hammerite wax oil, excellent stuff protects brilliantly against the elements, oh by the way norm, my roof lights, found the hatch at that back where reversing camera is, no power, when I took the light cover off the other day I must have pulled one of the wires out, simple job all working thanks
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Running Odometer on May 21, 2020, 10:40:46 am
Some more pictures.
It seems like no leak under the engine, no crack on the roof.
The interior is not in good shape. It needs some serious deep deep clean. Most of the systems are not functioning. Toilet is super filthy.
It needs serious time and budget to bring it back to good condition.
Recently MOT sold an 1991 Grand Villa (https://www.rvtrader.com/listing/1991-Foretravel-Grand-Villa-36--5011992090) for $16500. It is not exactly the same model. But consider the condition difference, it should be about the same value. It can be used as a reference. $16500-$4000=$12500 to bring the GV to the condition of the MOT GV. It is going to be challenging.
I think the following items needs to be worked on to bring this back to road ready
Deep deep clean
$700
6 Tires
$2000
Fluid Change plus replacing all pipes
$2000
3 x 8D Batteries
$1200
Hot water tank plus labor
$1200
Mattress
$400
Total
$7500
So it is already $7500 without considering fixing the little thing here and there.
Not even sure if you can get 6 tires for $2000, probably needs more money for 6 tires.
Most likely the air bag needs to be replaced, that is easily another $1500
Even if the bus can be purchased for less than $4000, it still needs significant time and budget to restore it.
I think I am gradually talking myself out.
Whoever bought this bus, hope he can come back to the forum and report back on the restoration.
I think it only make sense if
have a property to park the bus
have the time to work on the bus for extended period of time
Have good source for parts
Enough budget
Big heart :D
Thanks everybody for your reply.
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on May 21, 2020, 02:56:37 pm
Check https://www.ustireoutlet.com/products/ for good prices on tires. I was looking at their GreenMax steer tires. For a little more DoubleCoin has a good reputation and sold lots of places. So, $1200 to $1800 for a set of tires.
I replaced all three start batteries on our U300 Detroit with Duralast 31 series for just over $300 for all of them. Ask for a 10% discount at Autozone. I did and they didn't blink an eye. House batteries are available on CL reasonably.
Fluid change. OK but what are pipes?
$700 for cleanup??? I bought a Bissell Pro-Heat carpet cleaner but not for $249 but a refurbished unit from Bissell for $118 that appeared to be new. With our dogs, cleaning the carpet after each trip is a must. The Bissell cleans the sofa, headliner, etc and made the original wool carpet look new. So what if the interior is dirty. Your glass has to be half full!
Bottom of the engine looks dry.
As I've said before, we've owned our U300 for eleven years plus and have spent ZERO coach bucks on it with only a couple of airbags and misc stuff needed. This is outside of upgrades we did. If you are not retired, don't have a place close to work on it and pull your CC out a lot, it's not for you.
Yes, I'm a scrounger but learned as a kid how to make champagne out of cheap Thunderbird box wine. Unless you can do the same, you should stay away from an older coach. Lots of others on the forum make lemonade from lemons. Only if the bulkhead and related belly structure is rotten I would look elsewhere, otherwise, I would buy it in a second. Nothing in the photos is a big deal, just mostly your labor to make it a happy camper.
Pierce
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Jack Lewis on May 21, 2020, 03:38:01 pm
Whoever bought this bus, hope he can come back to the forum and report back on the restoration.
It sounds like the $4K Detroit powered FT, he was looking at, already sold to someone else. Sounds like someone may have gotten a good buy, or maybe not. Take this as a learning experience, there will be others.
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Running Odometer on May 21, 2020, 06:12:32 pm
It sounds like the $4K Detroit powered FT, he was looking at, already sold to someone else. Sounds like someone may have gotten a good buy, or maybe not. Take this as a learning experience, there will be others.
I don't know if it is sold or not.
You are right, there will be others. I will keep my eye on a little bit later model with proper maintenance. Maybe just from MOT
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Old Toolmaker on May 21, 2020, 06:58:03 pm
You are right, there will be others. I will keep my eye on a little bit later model with proper maintenance. Maybe just from MOT
When we're shopping for a new vehicle, in general we don't purchase the first one we find. That being said, I rode 4 hours in weather that was colder and wetter than expected to look at my first Foretravel, an FTX. On the ride home, with time to think, I realized that we needed the under bay storage and a dinette. But. Other than that I would have made the seller an offer and the build quality I saw convinced me to set my sights a little higher and reach a little deeper into my pocket.
To the motor coach caravan I passed on the right? I made it past the police before they had time to deploy their radar, though it was entertaining to watch the nose dive as they tried to stop and turn at the end of the on ramp. At that point I rode past them at the speed limit. We're happy.
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Protech Racing on May 21, 2020, 09:20:10 pm
Assuming that it runs and airs up. Check for rust. Rust is the deal breaker for this price range. Easy 2-25K for a proper lower rail repair. No rust , buy it. Put on the cheapest steer tires all around . Pull the carpeting out, pull out the fridge, install proper flooring. Find nice seats. A decent small resi fridge can be in place for 500$ plus a good inverter.
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Protech Racing on May 22, 2020, 10:53:56 am
Does anyone run the DD from one battery? I use only one for my Cat,
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on May 22, 2020, 12:02:14 pm
Does anyone run the DD from one battery? I use only one for my Cat,
When our LaFrance fire trucks were repowered with 8V-71 Detroits, we first switched from 1 to 2 on the Cole-Hersee battery switch (8D battery on each side of the apparatus) every other day but the diesels would hesitate trying to turn over on the single 8D. Normally, the 8-71s would light off in one tenth of a second so when we opened the door to get in the cab to respond, we started going from off to both on the switch, starting the diesels with two 8D batteries. All of this is at sea level in a mild climate.
Foretravel installed three 24 series batteries in our U300. I went to three 31 (2850 CCA) series last year, not because I was having a problem but just in case for winter starts at higher altitudes. The 6V-92TA does not have any starting aids other than the badly placed "block heater" so unless you are plugged in or run the generator for a long time, starting can be a long process. At 17 degrees, high elevation and snow in Yellowstone, I was able to finally get the engine started but only after melting one of the battery terminals.
Cummins 8.3 liters come with just two 24 series stock on Foretravels. The 9 liter Detroit is just enough bigger that it requires three 24s.
Wanderlodges, Prevost, Eagle, etc all have the correct block heater location down low on the Detroit block behind the AC compressor. Good to install a remote block heater, either electric if you have power or propane for dry campers. I think Ken did on his U300.
Pierce
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Andy 2 on May 22, 2020, 06:18:54 pm
I just have one 8d in my 92 and has been working fine, I have only had to use the boost switch a few times in cold weather in the teens. When I had an Eagle with a 8/92 I had two 8ds.
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on May 22, 2020, 07:21:44 pm
Typical 8D has about 1400 CCA and a 6V-92TA requires about 950 CCA so one 8D should do the job. Winter at higher elevations with a less than new battery may have problems especially since the Detroits don't have heated screens like Cummins. Foretravel put three 24 series in later U300s just in front of the rear bumper so at 550 to 750 CCA each, there is plenty to crank the Detroit. By replacing the 24 series with 31 series, I have 950 CCA X 3 = 2850 CCA so plenty for winter. And the 31 series were cheaper than the 24 series at Autozone.
Non-turbo Detroits have a 2 point higher compression ratio so require a little more CCAs. As I remember, it's 19 to 1 compared to 17 to 1 for the turbo engines.
Pierce
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Running Odometer on May 30, 2020, 09:28:21 pm
The 6v92 engine sounds really amazing!
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Running Odometer on May 30, 2020, 11:51:42 pm
Needs sanity check!
Today, I hired a diesel mechanic to start up the engine. After replacing the 8D battery, 6V92 engine fire right up without any hesitation. It really sounds beautiful. There is very little smoke when starts up. No smoke at all while running. Can't attach file here. So uploaded to youtube (https://youtu.be/QyKJ04Bqse4).
However, the engine is the easy part. After the engine starts, there are air leaks on the air bag so the air pressure can not be build. The tire needs to be replaced. All in all, the mechanic give a quote about $7000 to replace the 4 rear air bags, all 6 tires, engine oil, coolant and other small things on the spot.
Is it worth it?
Talked to few friends who don't know much about RV not to mention foretravel, they all think I am crazy. Spending $7K for a 30 year rig. and might be more.
For people who love ForeTravel here, is it worth spending $7K for the chassis maintenance?
How long can Detroit Diesel 6V92 last before next major service?
Right now it is at 130K mile
If it is not fixed, very likely this RV will go to junk yard. I hate seeing it go to junk yard.
Thanks in advance
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: craneman on May 31, 2020, 12:00:56 am
$3000.00 will buy 6 tires mounted. Paying another $4000.00 for 4 airbags and service seems high. Just my opinion, maybe try some other quotes.
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Running Odometer on May 31, 2020, 12:04:53 am
$3000.00 will buy 6 tires mounted. Paying another $4000.00 for 4 airbags and service seems high. Just my opinion, maybe try some other quotes.
Thanks for your quick response.
The challenge right now it that the RV can't move. It has to be serviced on the spot. This limit the choice. What is the typical cost to change air bag, change engine oil?
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: craneman on May 31, 2020, 12:24:25 am
Need to have GV members info on replacing airbags. I don't know if they are harder or easier than on the bus chassis so can't estimate. Engine oil and filters should be similar but have never paid for them so no help on cost. Other members will chime in with oil change costs as many have it done.
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: stump on May 31, 2020, 09:42:17 am
Air bags are easy to change after removing fenders over wheels. Side trim is unscrewed and removed and fenders are then unscrewed . Oil needs to be straight 40wt. I use Chevron Delo 100 40 wt myself. You will have to order it. Do Not Use Multigrade oil! Such as Rotella. 2 stroke Detroit has its own oil spec. I get mine at Oreilly autoparts usually overnight crankcase should hold 6 gallons w filtet. 3 gal to a case. Part numbers for O'Reilly CHV 100-40-1 https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b/delo-3205/chemicals---fluids-16461/oil-16865/motor-oil---vehicle-specific-16257/5fb4d14d310a/chevron-delo-conventional-motor-oil-40w-1-gallon/100401/2624304 As far as is it worth it? Thats up to you. Buying a RV is Not an investment it is an expense. Did you look at the bulkheads? Is this coach near Charlotte NCi would be happy to check it out for you. I own a 91 myself and have ample experience in what does what.
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Running Odometer on May 31, 2020, 10:32:02 am
Air bags are easy to change after removing fenders over wheels. Side trim is unscrewed and removed and fenders are then unscrewed . Oil needs to be straight 40wt. I use Chevron Delo 100 40 wt myself. You will have to order it. Do Not Use Multigrade oil! Such as Rotella. 2 stroke Detroit has its own oil spec. I get mine at Oreilly autoparts usually overnight crankcase should hold 6 gallons w filtet. 3 gal to a case. Part numbers for O'Reilly CHV 100-40-1 https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b/delo-3205/chemicals---fluids-16461/oil-16865/motor-oil---vehicle-specific-16257/5fb4d14d310a/chevron-delo-conventional-motor-oil-40w-1-gallon/100401/2624304 As far as is it worth it? Thats up to you. Buying a RV is Not an investment it is an expense. Did you look at the bulkheads? Is this coach near Charlotte NCi would be happy to check it out for you. I own a 91 myself and have ample experience in what does what.
Thank you. The coach is not near Charlotte NC. I wish it was. It is near Houston TX.
Any recommended mobile mechanic near Houston area?
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: hdff on May 31, 2020, 10:35:15 am
Don't know much about air bags other than they are around $100 a piece, can't believe it would be more than 1k to change them. Look up Rudy here, he has a mobile guy for just about anything...
Here is a mobile oil change guy in my area and his price sheet listed on his web page for reference on lube services...
Edit. I see below you are I the Houston area, so am I and this Mobile guy services out area
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on May 31, 2020, 10:52:53 am
As soon as Conti airbags are available cheap again, the cost will be less than $100 each. If you order from China, the price is about $40 so not much of an expense. Tires will cost from $1200 to $1800 a set. Don't get sucked in buying the overpriced brands. That does not sound like $7000 does it? Someone is always trying to get you to spend your money. The difference with what you NEED to spend and $7K is enough to buy a nice toad.
Our U300 has 110,000 miles. Nothing to be done except change oil, air cleaner, plastic fan, check and probably change alternator belts. My Buffalo bus as well as all our fire trucks were Detroits. Changed oil and that was it. No matter what anyone tells you, there is NO RACK TO RUN on the DDEC (electronic) Foretravels and all our coaches that are 2 cycle powered are electronic engines. Rack running was only true on the mechanical engines. Using the correct oil, your engine should outlive you. In eleven years of ownership, zero coach bucks on ours, just a couple of air bags and lots of diesel and insurance. Naturally, upgrades like floors, TVs, inverters, etc., are extra.
Mercedes now owns Detroit so all parts are available plus huge aftermarket sources for inexpensive (except injectors) parts. They built over 2 million of them.
Get another member to inspect the coach with you. PM with questions.
Pierce
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Chuck Pearson on May 31, 2020, 12:38:20 pm
Though I don't have a Detroit in my coach, my experiences in nearly 10 years of ownership are fairly close to Pierce's. No major expenses other than tires. But....and this is a BIG but.....I do all my own mechanical repair and maintenance. Parts are cheap. Having a questionably skilled mechanic working on your motorhome at 125.00/hr is not.
Personal opinion. If you have an interest, are decently mechanically inclined, and have time to work on one of these things, a vintage coach can be a cheap, fun, satisfying experience and the huge database and support offered by this forum makes it all doable. If this doesn't describe you, it is a terrible economic decision that will likely lead to significant remorse. Buy something newer/simpler.
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on May 31, 2020, 01:36:55 pm
Exactly Chuck and well worded. I told him if he was not DIY talented, best to buy a Toyota and tow a trailer. Usually, someone in the budget category does not have the cash for something recent. Nothing wrong with that as I'm in the same boat. At our age, you can't afford to make a big financial mistake. A lot of pension funds are on shaky ground now.
Pierce
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Running Odometer on May 31, 2020, 02:00:13 pm
Looking underneath the bus. Whole body between two axes is covered with fiberglass panel. The frame is not exposed at all. Do I have to take off the panel to check it?
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: wolfe10 on May 31, 2020, 02:03:07 pm
Looking underneath the bus. Whole body between two axes is covered with fiberglass panel. The frame is not exposed at all. Do I have to take off the panel to check it?
Do a search here for "Bulkheads". Lots of info and pictures of how the structure is put together. On that age/condition coach could very well be the deal maker/breaker.
And, depending on where it is in the Houston area, there may someone here what can give the bulkheads a quick look for/with you.
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Dub on May 31, 2020, 02:39:25 pm
There is a 295 on the forum classifieds in Az. that I would likely buy if I were looking.. None of my biz but a lot of coach can be bought for under 30k AFTER a close inspection.. I don't know your wants, needs, or budget just saying sometimes it's smarter to spend a little more. Almost always when something is priced very low there is a darn good reason.
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Running Odometer on May 31, 2020, 03:01:39 pm
Please PM me if anyone in Houston can come to take a look.
Thanks
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Running Odometer on June 01, 2020, 12:48:15 am
I would like to express my sincere appreciation to @stump.
He spend over 1 hour on the phone with me to go over some detail of the bus. Every single minutes of the call is informative. I learned so much! He even went over the bulkhead with me over the phone!
I guess my journey of Foretravel will start from this GV.
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: stump on June 01, 2020, 06:04:14 pm
It is my pleasure to help. We'll get it so it will air up and you get it moved . Then you can get it freshened up at your leisure. First things first. The pictures of the rear bulkhead looked good. One small spot in the center where the skin looks funky but all in all I think you will be fine
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Running Odometer on June 01, 2020, 11:18:20 pm
Today, he helped me to find the source of the air leak. It is a pin hole at the bottom of the real air tank. Most likely the air tank is rusted from inside.
But @stump come up with a solution that I am excited to try tomorrow.
Use sand paper to clean the nearby area. Use a cordless drill to enlarge the hole a little bit to get rid of the rust use a proper size self tapping sheet metal screws with a washer to fill the hole. Use Epoxy (JB-Weld) to seal the surround area around the hole. Let it cure If I can find a hose clamp long enough to hold the whole tank, it would be even better.
Most likely this is going to fix the air leak issue so that the bus can be aired up.
Anybody know how I can find the replacement air tank?
Most any local truck parts store or truck shop will have one. Now you may have to drill new mounting holes as the brackets can be different but that is doable also. They are made in all size with different air taps. You can shop on the net if you don't have a local truck parts store. Look for Air Brake Reservoir.
Mike
Title: 1991 Grand Villa-- bought it!
Post by: Running Odometer on June 02, 2020, 10:23:42 am
Planning to change oil/Fluid by myself.
Can anyone help me on the items I need?
Engine Oil @stump recommend chevron-delo-conventional-motor-oil-40w-1-gallon (https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b/delo-3205/oil-16865/motor-oil---vehicle-specific-16257/53f9883541cc/chevron-delo-conventional-motor-oil-40w-1-gallon/100401/2624304) How many Gallon Do I need? 6 Gallon? Oil Filter Where can I buy the oil filter, what is the part no?
Coolant What kind of coolant do I need? Any filter? Transmission fluid Is it necessary to change the transmission fluid? It is still pink and clear. Any filter? Air line filter? Is there any? Where can I buy?
Onan Generator Filter Where can I buy?
I think these information is somewhere in the forum already. But I am unable to find them.
Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: wolfe10 on June 02, 2020, 10:39:53 am
The coolant question depends on what type of coolant is in there and how old it is.
Any idea what is in there? Age? Color?
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Running Odometer on June 02, 2020, 11:17:00 am
The coolant question depends on what type of coolant is in there and how old it is.
Any idea what is in there? Age? Color?
At least 10 year old. Color is green
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: wolfe10 on June 02, 2020, 11:27:42 am
I would just change the coolant.
We have several Detroit 2 stroke experts here. They can advise you whether to stay with the old generation coolant or flush and switch to the new generation OAT-based coolant.
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 02, 2020, 11:45:23 am
Yes, It's Chevron's Delo 100 but NOT 400 but 100. Again, not 400!! Chevron distributors, marine docks, O'Riellys can order it. Not expensive. Takes 5.5 gallons. If you are new to changing oil, I recommend buying a quick drain, the low profile style that can't be broken off. Then put a vacuum cleaner on the oil filler, tape in on with duct tape, turn on vacuum and take drain plug out and install quick drain. You will not spill even one drop. You can then drain one gallon at a time. Puncture the bottom of the filter with something sharp, pull it out and drain the oil filter into a can. If you are careful, you also will not spill a drop. Buy 7 gallons of oil as your engine may use a little. In a coast to coast and back, ours used 2.5 quarts.
I went down to the Detroit dealership in West Sacramento. They said they fill with the green antifreeze. I asked the shop manager again and he said, "if it's green, we put it in."
Napa has the oil filter for generator, main engine, etc. Best to order online as much cheaper. I go to a truck logging company and they sell Napa gold filters for 40% less right here in town.
If you have the fiberglass fan, change it to the later type as the fan can come apart and ruin the radiator on your rear radiator U300.
Check the air filter and replace with the Donaldson pictured. A hole needs to be punched in the end so the restriction gauge will work.
PM for more info.
Pierce
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Jack Lewis on June 02, 2020, 11:49:30 am
DD specifically say not to judge a anti freeze type by the color.
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: wolfe10 on June 02, 2020, 12:01:23 pm
SO, translate "green" to "low silicate for diesel with added SCA coolant"
Available from any parts house catering to OTR trucks. Plenty on the east side of Houston.
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: JohnFitz on June 02, 2020, 04:02:11 pm
So the air filters on a 1992 U300 are different from a 1991 U300. Attached is the page from my owners manual (1991). Hopefully both manuals are in the coach.
Locations of filters: Coolant filter: frame mounted, located on pass side behind rear wheel Primary Fuel: frame mounted,located near coolant filter Secondary Fuel: mounted on engine, drivers side, close to fan and up high, spin-on style External transmission filter: frame mounted, drivers side behind rear wheel, spin-on style)
I would plan on changing the transmission oil sometime in the near future but not to get it home.
The radiator fan should be replaced if it's fiberglass - glass fibers are visible on surface and edges. They will break apart and damage the core eventually. New fans are a solid ABS like plastic. I would take the chance and wait until you get it home if it needs replacement.
I replaced my coolant with the DD extended life OAT; no additive needs to be maintained during it's 10 year expected life. Old style coolant needs to have the SCA additive level checked periodically (typically with test strips). I used to use DD "need release" coolant filter that would maintain the SCA level automatically. The Need Release P/N is 23516489 if you decide to go with the old traditional style coolant.
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Old Toolmaker on June 02, 2020, 08:45:12 pm
I would like to express my sincere appreciation to @stump.
He spend over 1 hour on the phone with me to go over some detail of the bus. Every single minutes of the call is informative. I learned so much! He even went over the bulkhead with me over the phone!
I guess my journey of Foretravel will start from this GV.
jiaxinxi wrote: "I guess my journey of Foretravel will start from this GV."
Congratulations! on your new home on wheels, and to quote from the great philosophers Emerson, Lake and Palmer,
"Welcome (back) my friend to the show that never ends. We're so glad you could attend, come inside, come inside."
Art Joly
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: steve31 on June 02, 2020, 10:02:16 pm
Pierce is on point here for sure. It's Delo 100 40 weight. Low ash and made for our 2 strokes. He is also correct on the Donaldson air filter. Went with a Wix once on advice of a counterman. The Donaldson has twice the filter media of the Wix. Worth the extra cost. Remember you are feeding a turbo charger that's ramming it into a super charger. Your using lots of cubic feet of air and a plentiful , clean supply is real important. Last keep an eye on that rear radiator and make sure it's as clean as you can. Every year douse it with full strength Simple Green ( from inside and outside with garden sprayer). Hot water rinse down. If your careful you won't have to spend an hour cleaning up the bedroom. You'll be stunned how much stuff you flush out. The things that can kill your DD is low oil pressure and heat. Keep up on those and that motor should last you your natural life.
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Jack Lewis on June 02, 2020, 10:16:58 pm
...... Last keep an eye on that rear radiator and make sure it's as clean as you can. Every year douse it with full strength Simple Green ( from inside and outside with garden sprayer). Hot water rinse down. If your careful you won't have to spend an hour cleaning up the bedroom. You'll be stunned how much stuff you flush out. The things that can kill your DD is low oil pressure and heat. Keep up on those and that motor should last you your natural life.
Excellent recommendation, however, I would use use this over regular Simple Green. It was first recommended to me by a local radiator shop. Amazon.com: Simple Green Extreme Aircraft and Precision Cleaner, 1 Gallon... (https://www.amazon.com/Simple-Green-Extreme-Aircraft-Precision/dp/B081D5R6T9)
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 03, 2020, 12:12:58 am
As Steve says, watch the low oil pressure and don't overheat it like all wet sleeve engines. After pumping at a fire our Detroits would not have that much oil pressure at idle. One of several reasons we never idled them for very long. The fast idle switch on the dash brought the idle RPM up from 600 to 1000. This speed circulates coolant much better, brings the oil pressure way up and cools the oil, especially important with turbos. Foretravel Detroits don't have a fast idle switch and the cruise control does not work for that so it's up to the operator and their foot.
Unlike most wet sleeve engines, the 92 series only has a 2 inch area that is exposed to the coolant but the sealing rings at the top and bottom of the sleeves don't like to get overheated. Overheating and cavitation can cause pitting on the outside of the sleeves and eventual erosion.
Pierce
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Jeff & Sandy on June 03, 2020, 07:00:23 am
<snip>
Check the air filter and replace with the Donaldson pictured. A hole needs to be punched in the end so the restriction gauge will work.
PM for more info.
Pierce [/quote]
Hi Pierce.
Where do I punch the hole that you mentioned?
Thanks, Jeff
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: dsd on June 03, 2020, 10:50:46 am
Check the air filter and replace with the Donaldson pictured. A hole needs to be punched in the end so the restriction gauge will work.
PM for more info.
Pierce
Hi Pierce.
Where do I punch the hole that you mentioned?
Thanks, Jeff
OK, you can see the rubber/foam gasket that you removed from the old filter so you just punch a hole anywhere on the inside. I had a sharp punch and just tapped it with a hammer.
The big problem with GVs is the air intake location right behind the right rear duals. Anything thrown back by the tires is sucked in, dust, dirt, leaves, twigs and water. It's worse on the 2 cycle Detroit as it uses twice as much air as a 4 cycle plus the big blower has great suction power, so much in fact that it partially collapsed the old air cleaner. The construction on the Donaldson is much more robust and there are more places a glue has been applied.
Not sure if the rear radiator U300 air cleaner is the same part number as the later side radiator U300 models.
If you are wondering why the 1991 has 50 less horsepower, it's because HT746 transmission was not available to Foretravel and then MTB648 Allison was not rated to handle the 350 hp along with the torque the 6V-92TA produces so the engine was derated. It's just in the DDEC IIs ECU so a firmware update will raise the HP to the max allowed by the EPA for the street. (fire trucks excepted)
Attached photo shows the hole I made in the air cleaner two changes ago. Watching the restriction gauge is important as it really increased the power in ours the first time I changed it. This is especially important for 4 cycles as a restricted air cleaner may cause excess fuel to be delivered, even more so at altitude causing high EGTs. Also attached is the maximum restriction for each brand of engines.
Pierce
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Caflashbob on June 03, 2020, 12:24:51 pm
Why do I remember a cruise control fast idle?
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 03, 2020, 12:55:33 pm
Good memory Bob. On some Cummins (possible CAT?) powered Foretravels not U300 Detroit.
Pierce
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Caflashbob on June 03, 2020, 03:51:51 pm
Sure thought the Detroit's had a fast idle somewhere?
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it? (Bought it!)
Post by: Running Odometer on June 04, 2020, 08:40:11 am
Some more updates.
With @stump help, I am able to fix the leak and move the bus back and forth for a little bit.
So Tuesday, @stump helped me find the source of the leak. It is pin hole at the bottom of the rear air tank
Wed. I followed @stump suggestion to use self taping sheet metal screws and a washer to seal the tank. I used some drills to drill the hole to get rid of some rust. However under the bus with very limit space, I drilled the hole too big. The largest sheet metal screw is 1/4in. It barely stay on the hole. I wrapped around some teflon tape so it can stay little bit tighter. Then use #80 sand to smooth the nearby sufface Use 3 worm clamp to hold the screw in place. used JB-Weld steel enforced epoxy to seal the screw and the clamp. It looks messy, but it should work.
Thur. After the epoxy is fully cured. I went under the bus to check the air tank. The epoxy feels rock solid. So it should hold some air pressure.
So I first hook up the shore powered air compressor, it is able to build some air pressure to keep the air bag inflated. With the little air compressor running, I checked around, didn't hear any leaking sound. Good sign!. But the air bag still not aired up the bus. So I try to start up the big engine. And of course the battery died due to lack of charging for the past few days. How frustrating! So switch to new battery, start the engine. I am excited to see the air pressure gauge is moving. It is building air pressure. But it stops at 30PSI. Not able to air the bus up. Very frustrated.
This time, I can hear the air is leaking from the shore power air compressor. More specifically the left cylinder. So I need to fix the leak. Tracing the hose, there is one hose come from the tank to the shore power air compressor, so if I terminate that hose, then I should be able to by pass the little air compressor. Went to Lowes, they don't have fittings for 3/8 OD hose. Went to NAPA, bought the fittings to terminate the hose. And this time the air is up to 90 PSI!
It takes a while for all 8 air bags to be inflated. After 20 minutes, all air bags are inflated. Following @stump instructions over the phone, I put the three level switch in the middle to switch from level mode to ride mode. Release the parking brake. Hold the brake pedal, then put the transmission in to D, the transmission engaged! After a little put accelerate pedal, the bus moved forward for a few inches. Then put in R, the bus moved back a few inches.
For the first time in at least 15 years, the bus moved! What a moment!
After little excitement, new issues show up. After the brake pedal, the air pressure is not building up anymore. It stays at 10PSI. New problem! Luckily, at this time @stump is on the phone with me. Otherwise, I will already suffer few heart attacks. :) He quickly point out the air governor is probably of no good. He instructed me to use some hammer to see if I can loose the piston. No good. The governor is connected with two hose and two bolts, with @stump encouragement, I am able to take the governor off and run to NAPA store 5 minutes before they close :o The original governor works at 95-105PSI. NAPA doesn't have that parts in stock. But they have 105~125Psi. With @stump approval, I bought that one and installed back on the engine compressor. Checking the old governor, it is all filled with rust. No wonder why it is not producing air pressure any more. With the new governor, the engine can build up air pressure up to 120PSI pretty easily. I found another leaked hose in the shore power compressor bay. It is the 1/4 hose. Plan to splice using the quick air fittings tomorrow.
More thing to do later, Install new 3/0 battery cables to connect the house batter. Old one rusted out. Change all six tires. Tire shop will come to change on the spot. clean the water tank as much as possible to get rid of the smell. Change engine oil, coolant, transmission fluid, all filters Startup the generator. and oil / filter of the generator
All of this happened while @stump is on the phone with me. I am unable to handle all of this by myself. His knowledge on the bus is unbelievable. I have no doubt that he can fix anything around the bus.
Sure thought the Detroit's had a fast idle somewhere?
Bob,
You were probably thinking of the fast idle on the ProLink 9000 used to test the injectors. If you don't do the injector test, you can stop one step early and fast idle at exactly 1000 rpm. The ProLink warns you at least twice to make sure you are in neutral as the Detroit develops a lot of torque at fast idle and will overcome the brakes. For those not familiar with the ProLink, it reads the engine's computer for history, codes, mpg for a total of about 45 items plus it tests and can change certain operating parameters. Still available on the used market with cartridges for most electronic engines, transmissions and ABS brakes.
Our Detroit powered fire trucks were all manual transmission so that was not a problem so all had a fast idle switch.
Pierce
Title: Re: Thinking of purchasing this 1991 Grand Villa, worth it?
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 04, 2020, 10:05:36 am
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Caflashbob on June 04, 2020, 01:57:11 pm
I thought the fast idle was part of the cruise control stalk on the steering column. Anyone have the owners manual from Foretravel?
I maybe wrong but I think I remember demoing the fast idle many times. Maybe the cat? At least the early u300's?
Birds had a fast idle switch on the dash.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Andy 2 on June 04, 2020, 02:26:10 pm
Detroit's don't have the option of cruise control for high idle.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Caflashbob on June 04, 2020, 03:55:07 pm
Engine running. Trans in neutral. Slide the cruise control button to the on position and slide it past the on position and briefly hold it in that position. Does the idle go up?
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 04, 2020, 04:27:08 pm
Works on Cummins rigs, not our Detroit. Tried it years ago when the topic came up. Perhaps it does work on a early U300 but not ours. Any other Detroit owners able to get fast idle?
Pierce
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: coastprt on June 04, 2020, 05:23:46 pm
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: kpbowser on June 04, 2020, 06:32:46 pm
You also need new air cleaner. On my 91 6v92 it is a wix 56726. Donaldson does not make one anymore for our coach (xlp18-2990)
Ken
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 04, 2020, 07:15:45 pm
You also will have a retarder on the Allison not a Jake like the next year. As I remember, when the 648 Allison shifts, it does not lock up in the same gear as the 746 Allison. Perhaps a "91 U300 owner can go over the retarder and the lockup shifting sequence here.
Pierce
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: juicesqueezer on June 04, 2020, 07:19:37 pm
Such knowledge on this forum is worth it's weight in GOLD!
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Jeff & Sandy on June 04, 2020, 07:23:01 pm
Works on Cummins rigs, not our Detroit. Tried it years ago when the topic came up. Perhaps it does work on a early U300 but not ours. Any other Detroit owners able to get fast idle?
Pierce
Not mine either
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Phranko on June 04, 2020, 10:28:54 pm
Works on Cummins rigs, not our Detroit. Tried it years ago when the topic came up. Perhaps it does work on a early U300 but not ours. Any other Detroit owners able to get fast idle?
Pierce
Nope, doesn't work on ours. Wish it did, boy do I wish it did.
Whenever we pull into a rest stop it's b/c I have to go make water. DW slides into the drivers seat and holds the RPMs up since we just pulled off the highway. While tending to my business I listen to the engine rev and wonder "how fast is she spinning this thing". Hurry up, wash up, get back up front only to find she's holding the RPMs right where they need to be.
New owner jitters, kids will sleep back there all the time while traveling. Since I do the driving I have no idea what it sounds like in the back, be it 1000 RPMs fast idle or 1850 cruise RPMs.
Telling this as a one new owner to another new owner. Relax, enjoy, learn, ask questions. Congrats on your new purchase.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Texhub on June 04, 2020, 11:05:38 pm
Ear protection for sleepers.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Running Odometer on June 05, 2020, 12:33:17 am
Some more updates.
Today was pretty easy.
Yesterday an air leak is found in the on boar air compressor bay. There are at least two air line in that bay. One is 3/8 connect to the on-board air compressor. The other is 1/4 air line. Not sure what it connects to yet. The 1/4 is leaking air. Leaking is not bad enough to cause air not to build. But it definitely slow down the air pressure build up process. With @stump encouragement yesterday, I am more confident today to handle issue like this.
Startup the engine. Battery was on Battery tender trickle charger. So engine fires right up. Build some air pressure. Identify the leak position. Cut the air hose before and after the leak position.
As you can see, the 1/4 air hose is rubbing some thing so that it busted. Went to NAPA, bought this air hose coupler. Super easy to use. Just push the air hose in. It will lock the hose automatically. No need to use wrench. It is amazing.
After the fix, run the engine for a while. The air pressure build up nicely. There is no more significant leak anymore. There are some small leaks. But it is not significant enough to slow down the air pressure build up.
So seems like the air system is working now.
The next task is the battery. House battery positive terminal is completed rotten out. The cable used are 3/0 cable. Very heavy duty. I have crimp to handle 1/0 cable, but not 3/0 cable. So I bought this (https://www.amazon.com/WBHome-Hydraulic-Crimper-Terminal-Crimping/dp/B0811VYCQ6)guy from Amazon. It is able to handle 4/0 cable with 12 tons of hydraulic force. So 3/0 cable should be easy.
Attached is how I connect the battery together. I hope it is correct ;D . Basically all three batter's negative terminal are connected together. But the engine positive and house positive are separated. @stump said, there is a boost button on the left side of the steering wheel. When it is pushed, all 3 batteries will be used to provide power to the engine starter. Great tip form @stump again!
I was trying to fill the grey tank and black tank then add some Colorox so that I can reduce the odor. I was able to fill the fresh tank. Even saw the overflow valve open. But the kitchen faucet stopped working after a while. So not sure if the water pump is burned or something else is not right. Will need to investigate tomorrow.
Thanks for you reading!
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Old Toolmaker on June 05, 2020, 09:07:20 am
New owner jitters, kids will sleep back there all the time while traveling. Since I do the driving I have no idea what it sounds like in the back, be it 1000 RPMs fast idle or 1850 cruise RPMs.
Telling this as a one new owner to another new owner. Relax, enjoy, learn, ask questions. Congrats on your new purchase.
Your V-6 Detroit sounds just like a 4-stroke V-12 at 1850 RPM. Time to hit an antique auto show and ask an E-type owner if you can listen to his V-12. If it's an inline-6 ask him to rev it to 3700. Your engine will sound just as sweet.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: wolfe10 on June 05, 2020, 09:09:26 am
I am surprised only one start battery for the DD 6V92.
And on the house bank, attach cable from chassis ground to one battery, cable to house positive to the OTHER BATTERY.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 05, 2020, 10:01:12 am
I am surprised only one start battery for the DD 6V92.
And on the house bank, attach cable from chassis ground to one battery, cable to house positive to the OTHER BATTERY.
So the battery on the left is the chassis/engine start battery. The two on the right are the house batteries. And that pile in the middle is a chemical flower without the lump of soft coal underneath?
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Andy 2 on June 05, 2020, 10:17:29 am
My 92 U300 has one start battery as well but I have 4 deep cycle 6 volt house batteries. Works well ^.^d
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Running Odometer on June 06, 2020, 12:48:55 am
Not sure if anybody is still interested, I am updating my progress on getting the coach moved.
Today is a big day. The tire company came and changed the tire.
I was hoping they can change tire without moving the coach, but they have to move it to get clearance under the bus. So I have to move the bus. My initial thought is to move the bus after the tire is changed. Looks like I have to move the bus before the tire is changed. For the first time in at least 15 years, the coached moved out its parking place. It attracts a group of people to gather around since it has been there for so long.
The tire on the model no. plate is 275/80R22.5. According to the tire shop, it is Michellin special size. It is almost identical to 295/75R22.5. The latter is a lot easier to find. It is a little bit bigger so in some edge cases, it will barely touch the bottom of the front air bag. I choose Toyo tires since I heard it is pretty good. It cost $3000 to install all 6 of them. Ouch!!!
After a good 2 hour and a lot of sweat, 6 brand new tires were installed! For the front wheel, since the air conditioner's condensation flow right from there, A lot of rust on Nuts and stud. Tire guy suggest to change at least 3 of the stud and all (22) the nuts.
The front hub is still the old oil bath hub.
While the coach is out on the road, I took a picture of the whole coach. I think it is still stylish!
After new tires are in place, I decide to take the coach to the nearest gas station to add fresh diesel while diesel price is low. So my first driving starts. I had never driven anything like that before. But according to my neighbor-a retired 18 wheeler driver, I did pretty good. ;D
In Texas, Diesel is at $2.00/Gallon, the tank can hold 148 gallon. It is good time to get some diesel while the price is still low.
After the fueling, I am backing in to the parking spot. Very challenging, but I did it on first try!
Never thought how lucky I was to finish the whole trip. It would be too unrealistic if nothing wrong happens.
When I backed into the parking spot. It is a little bit too far to connect the hose, power and sewage. No big deal. Just fire up the engine, back up a little bit more. The problem is that air pressure is not building up! :o :o . Big disappointment!!! All the excitement went away. I know I can't handle this by myself. I texted @stump the issue. I know for sure he will give a solution ;D .
While waiting on @stump response, I went under the bus to check the patch I did on Wed. I think it is of no good. There is water dripping out. So I took the clamps out. Get the epoxy out. Clean the surface again. I am going to reseal the tank.
NAPA is a great place to go to get ideas to fix thing like this. They recommend me to use 3/8 taping tool to create thread on the tank then use standard 3/8 bolt to seal it with some liquid Teflon. Sounds pretty promising! So went under the bus again, first enlarge the hole using 5/16 drill bit. Then use the tool to create thread. Use liquid Teflon, Put the bolt on, really tighten it. All seems really well. Much cleaner than the epoxy mess.
While waiting on the Teflon to cure, went ahead to redo the battery cable by adding the heat shrink tube.
I was hoping the air tank leak is the cause of the air pressure issue. I was so wrong. It is not. There are some other leaks. Since the on board air pressure is bypassed. I have to go under the bus while the engine is running. It was pretty scary. But I get use to it.
Soon, I discovered the leak come from the valve connected to the brakes. Initially I thought the hose was busted. At this time, @stump is already on the phone with me. The most important thing I learned from him today is Don't panic. These things will happen. The rubber will dry out. At the end, just find where the leak is and fix it.
By looking the picture, @stump think it is a pressure relive valve. It is stuck due to the years of no usage. So instead of finding new part. He instructed me to the spread good amount of WD40, then use hammer to loosen it up. So I did it. Air pressure still not building up! But since @stump is on the phone with me. I am not in panic mode at all :D :D
The next part shows how deep @stump understands the bus. Since air pressure is not building. He wants to relive the parking brake and holding the brake pedal. Do this few times to exercise the valves. This works!!! While holding the brake pedal, air pressure build up nicely. Then release the brake pedal. air pressure build up without problem! Yeah! Will see if it still works tomorrow.
The lesson learned today is Don't panic! For coach this age, the rubber will dry out. Just find the leak, fix it one by one. Nothing too complicated once you know how air system works!
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Texhub on June 06, 2020, 02:02:43 am
I love your posts! Please keep them coming. We love pictures!
Please understand. We as owners of these road palaces all have the panic, fear of rut ro what was that. Many can fix without any help. Most need some form of help. That help is just waiting to extend its invisible hand. Here and in the facebook forums also. Never be afraid to ask. We all learn by the posts of each other. With my coach, steering was allover the road when I first drove it. That was just the beginning of issues. So keep posting. Vr Mark
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Jeff & Sandy on June 06, 2020, 07:02:40 am
I'm enjoying this thread. We all can learn something new. Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: wolfe10 on June 06, 2020, 08:50:09 am
Thanks for your updates.
Minor correction. You said: "The tire on the model no. plate is 275/75R22.5. According to the tire shop, it is Michellin special size. It is almost identical to 295/80R22.5."
It is: 275/80R22.5 Michelin is almost identical to 295/75R22.5.
And, you may need to check and adjust your cut angles on the steering box (easy) as some have reported on full cut interference between the 295's and the air bag support plate.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: oldguy on June 06, 2020, 08:54:31 am
Keep them coming, I am interested in how you make out.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 06, 2020, 09:27:56 am
Just got around to reading this whole thread. Very entertaining - like a mystery/adventure novel...has me on the edge of my seat.
"Will our stalwart hero finally overcome all obstacles and ride off into the sunset in his handsome Foretravel?"
Couple random thoughts when looking at photos:
1. Is that engine exhaust pipe in the standard location for this model? Looks (to me) kinda unusual poking through the side panel.
2. That cracked skylight over the shower can be sealed with some good quality tape until you get a chance to replace it.
3. Looks like the rear roof air conditioner is a newer model, so you may have avoided some future expense there. ^.^d
There are drain valves that should allow you to drain any water out of the air tanks (2 tanks in front and one in the rear). Until you get around to changing out the air dryer, It would be good to check these drain valves every time you run the engine. Water buildup in the air tanks should be avoided. Add a new or rebuilt air dryer to your "To Do" list.
What type batteries did you install? I can't tell for sure in the photo. If they are "flooded" type batteries (with filler caps) you will need to keep a close eye on the electrolyte level. If your battery charger is old, or not set up correctly, it may try to over-charge the new batteries and that will boil the water out...which is not good.
Good luck with your new ride! Keep us updated on your adventures, and post lots of photos as your go along. We LIKE photos!
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Andy 2 on June 06, 2020, 09:41:48 am
Love your posts, we all had to start somewhere and your mentor is teaching you well grasshopper. Keep moving forward and have fun. By time stump get through with you, your going to know that bus pretty good ^.^d
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Old Toolmaker on June 06, 2020, 09:46:25 am
Jiaxinxi wrote: "I was hoping the air tank leak is the cause of the air pressure issue. I was so wrong. It is not. There are some other leaks. Since the on board air pressure is bypassed. I have to go under the bus while the engine is running. It was pretty scary. But I get use to it."
Please don't do that again. I am too old and too feeble to undertake another project on a scale such as yours, but I do remember the satisfaction that comes from solving each problem in its turn.
Not only can @stump but any number of Foretravel owners detail how to brace your chassis so that it will not settle on you while working underneath. Sadly mine does not have the air suspension so I cannot give you detailed instruction.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Jeff & Sandy on June 06, 2020, 10:17:47 am
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: stump on June 06, 2020, 10:23:16 am
LJ is funny as heck. He has ample room under his coach even if air bags are deflated. Obviously not under cargo bay area but in engine area and under the front you can almost kneel. I trust he has enough common sense to know where and where not to go. He has come a kong way in the last week getting this bus to where it is now. The original mobile mechanic told him he needed air bags to the tune of 7k. No bags have had to be replaced as of yet. I told him to just take one thing at a time. This coach has not moved until yesterday 15-20 yrs. When he runs into a snag I remind him have you spent 7k yet?lol I think today he will have systems working where he can move it to its new storage/work location. It is in a campground and they want to rent the lot.with his tenacity he will succeed! So far with sone guidance he has made every repair he has had to do. Get er done!
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: MT Ted on June 06, 2020, 11:08:50 am
What a great read, love the pictures. Like Andy told me when I first got mine. "Its like eating an elephant, one bite at a time". Im still eating on my elephant and I love the big ol bugger! One thing I noticed in your front hub picture. It was filled with water, the same thing happened to mine. When this happens, the water gets into the hub, with the oil. Make sure you check to see if the hub is full of moisture. If it is I wouldn't drive to far. I replaced the bearings and the seal on my rf hub. That's the side that took the snow and rain for 9 years before I got it. Congrats!
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: craneman on June 06, 2020, 11:10:39 am
I think today he will have systems working where he can move it to its new storage/work location. It is in a campground and they want to rent the lot.with his tenacity he will succeed! So far with sone guidance he has made every repair he has had to do. Get er done!
Having a guardian angel to call upon helps keep the brain cramps at bay.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: JohnFitz on June 06, 2020, 03:39:39 pm
...This time, I can hear the air is leaking from the shore power air compressor. More specifically the left cylinder. So I need to fix the leak. ...
I realized you have this issue bypassed for now but here's a little tidbit of advice (from experience) for later on this: the onboard 120VAC compressor (that is under the stairs) is tied into the air system with a small check valve. The check valve has a steel spring that rusts out and allows the air to flow back into the compressor when the compressor stops. The compressors reed valves will leak back a little which is normal for that type of valve. The check valve looks like a 1/4" NPT nipple with a wrench hex so it can easily be overlooked as just a regular nipple. It should be one of the first things the output of the compressor ties into. Good luck and I'm glad Stump was so helpful for you. He's a great guy.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Running Odometer on June 07, 2020, 12:40:32 am
Since you guys are interested in the update, I am going to continue posting.
Today to me feels like season 1 finale. Season 1 is all about moving the bus and it is moved, TODAY!
Season 1 Director: @stump Season 1 Main Actor: @jiaxinxi follow director order ;) Season 1 Actors: you guys on the forum.
Season 2 trailer: Can the generator be fixed? Can @jiaxinxi change engine oil and filter Generator oil and filter, fuel filter and air filter? Spoiler: @stump said these are easy :'( !
Joke aside. Today is the big day. By agreement, I have to move the bus out of the camp ground by tomorrow regardless of driving out or tow it out. Instead of waiting on the last day, I want to do it today. Just in case, if something happens, still have a day to work on it.
Today's plan is to prepare for the move. Since the new storage place has no water, I decide to flush the tank few times. Fill the fresh tank, then use garden hose to fill the grey tank. and black tank. Add little Colorox, then flushed them out. It seems like grey tank and black tank sensor is not working any more. It always shows as empty even though I filled them using garden hose. One more thing to do in Season 2.
The black tank valve is stuck. I tried WD40, not much help. I have to use hammer and pliers to open and close it. Does anybody have any way to lubricate it?
Thing will never go smooth, when I try to drain the fresh tank. There is no water came out from the kitchen faucet even thought the water pump light is on. Something is wrong! I remembered what @stump said yesterday. Don't panic. Most of the time, it is caused by simple issues. Since no water came out, let's check water pump first. Of course it is not going to work. Looking at picture, the wire is complete cut. This is easy fix. Cut the plastic, join the copper together. Use heat shrink tube to protect the connection. And the pump is working! Water came out of the kitchen faucet!
Next is to temporarily seal the cracked sky light. Few posts ago, somebody recommends to seal the crack with good quality tape. Well I have 3M duct tape and I am not afraid to use it. It turned to be pretty good ;D Duct tape can fix anything!
Those are the technical things for today. Spend most of the time for cleaning.
Later in the afternoon, finally it is time to move the bus. Big moment. for the first time in at least 15 years, the bus is moved to another location on its own power.
Attached are few pictures of me driving along the road. Wish I could upload videos. The engine does sound good.
Never drove anything this big before, I think I did pretty good job. Didn't scratch anything. I need to drive 15 miles to get to the new location. This 15 miles is the longest miles I ever drove. I am so nervous about break down on the road that every little noise from the bus seems so loud. Every pot hole seems so big. Luckily looking at the gauge, all seem normal.
One thing I noticed that, driving this bus, I don't feel the speed. 45MPH feels pretty fast for my car on the same road. But on the bus, I don't feel the speed. Always concerned about causing traffic jam.
After almost 30 minutes nerves breaking drive, finally arrived at the storage location. Put on the parking brake, get off the bus, enter the code. Then drive inside, but I forget to release the parking brake. I was wondering why suddenly the bus is so reluctant to move. Since there many people waiting behind me, I didn't event think about the parking brake. Just push the gas pedal harder, it eventually move the bus. Soon I realized something is wrong. The transmission temperature is over 300. It shouldn't be that high. I drove with parking brake on for about few hundred feet! I am so scared that I might just burned the transmission. Luckily @stump said it is OK for just a few hundred feet. I trust what he said and it make me feel much better.
Backing the rig into the parking spot is another challenge. Took a good while to back it in nice and straight.
With this 1991 Foretravel Grand Villa parked in storage place, season 1 officially ended with success. Looking back the whole process, I think it is almost a miracle to get this far. For example, just today, right after I parked the coach, there is heave down pour. The windshield wiper is completely gone. Had I started later, I will be stuck in heavy rain without windshield wiper.
If @stump didn't offer me his phone number, I won't be able to get so much helpful information in almost real time. If the camp side is not close to NAPA store, I won't be able to get the parts so quickly. If the neighbor is not a retired truck driver, I won't be able to get some tip from him regarding driving big truck
In the past few days, I spend almost over 6 hours on the coach every day. Lot of sweat and dirt. But it is a very rewarding process.
The biggest Aha moment to me is when @stump instructed me to change the governor. Before, I was not sure if I can make it drive-able. Quite a few sleepless nights. Wake up 3 in the morning, thinking about how I can fix it. After the governor is replaced and the air pressure build up, I am more confident that this thing will work out although @stump said that from the beginning. It took me a while to truly believe that.
Thank you @stump Thanks everybody here who give suggestion and support.
Stay tuned for Season 2 8)
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Caflashbob on June 07, 2020, 01:41:15 am
Volts are low?
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 07, 2020, 08:18:23 am
Either a bad voltmeter reading, or else alternator/isolator will need to be looked at. Something not right there.
2200 rpm seems kinda high at 49 mph. Is that normal for this engine/trans combination?
Does the air pressure gauge have two needles (front & rear tank) or just one needle? Can't tell from photo.
If just one needle, which tank does it monitor?
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Old Toolmaker on June 07, 2020, 08:58:22 am
jiaxinxi wrote: "One thing I noticed that, driving this bus, I don't fee the speed. 45MPH feels pretty fast for my car on the same road. But on the bus, I don't feel the speed. Always concerned about causing traffic jam."
What is behind you doesn't matter. As to "feeling the speed," when you have enough hours in the driver's seat you will lift your foot from the accelerator pedal and you will feel as though you are accelerating. You will become used to this feeling and soon after you will be able to feel the vehicle slowing down. It takes time.
"One thing I noticed that, driving this bus, I don't fee the speed. 45MPH feels pretty fast for my car on the same road. But on the bus, I don't feel the speed. Always concerned about causing traffic jam."
Just drive it by the numbers. On our last foray into the Atlanta, GA greater metropolitan area I needed to turn around because I missed my exit. I entered the off ramp too fast and was happy that my brakes are so powerful.
Congratulations on your first road trip!
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 07, 2020, 10:33:02 am
Looks as if you are at fuel cutoff 2130 rpm and you have one more gear to go. 2130 in 4th should give about 82 mph or it does in our U300.
The speedo is right on. You are up a little higher than anything else on the road so it seems like you are going slower but you are not. Easy to be on a boulevard, not realize how fast you are going and not be able to stop for a light.
Don't move the coach without having the mirrors adjusted. The tendency in a tall driving position is to be on the right side of the lane. Drive with the left rear tire about 10 inches from the center stripe and you never have to worry about your right side. We driven in the heaviest San Francisco traffic without even thinking about the lane to our right. I taught all the new guys this trick as they all did the same thing. If you want to change lanes, put your turn signal on for three seconds and then start moving over. Naturally watching in the mirror for some idiot that has to prove a point. If a turn is going to be close, remember the top of the coach as it leans over on a slow right turn at an intersection because of the crown on the road.
Don't cut across corners in the road to the right. If you are making a right turn at an intersection, don't start the turn early as it's easy to run over the curb or in older towns with the traffic light right at the corner, hit the light. Go into the oncoming lane if necessary making a right turn in town and if cars are coming toward you, stop until it is clear. Never feel pressured to do anything.
Pierce
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: wolfe10 on June 07, 2020, 11:07:52 am
Correct, either in 3rd gear not 4th or tach is way off. Suspect the former.
You do need to troubleshoot that low voltage. Could be a bad alternator, just a loose or corroded wire, bad battery isolator, etc. Could just be bad connections to the voltmeter/bad voltmeter. But, you need to verify before driving-- 10 VDC on the road leads to BAD things happening.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Running Odometer on June 08, 2020, 12:28:02 am
Since you guys are interested, I will try to keep update this thread. Also received few messages to encourage me, thank you!
For all of you who enjoy the thread, please direct your appreciation to @stump. He is the director of the show :D .
I didn't expect Season 2 starts this early. I was exhausted yesterday. Haven't been with my kids for the last 7 days since I spend over 6 hours everyday to work on the bus. I thought I am going to take a break. But that didn't happen.
So by the agreement, I have to clean the parking spot after move the coach. Otherwise, cleaning fee will incur. So went back to the camp ground, clear out few 42 gallon contractor bags of trash. It was exhausting. But I still managed to post the update here.
This morning, I was reading your comments. One thing caught my eye. The battery voltmeter. 10V is too low for a health battery. I don't want to damage the battery since those 8D batteries are darn expensive!
Needs to find a way to maintain the battery.
In the past few days, my SUV becomes my working truck. It filled with tools. When I try to clean up the SUV, I realize that only small faction of the tool are used. Nothing special or fancy is used. The most used tool set was bought from walmart for $15. The yellow box are the hydraulic cable crimp tool for the 3/0 battery cable terminal. Yellow heat gun is for the heat shrink tube of the cable. Other than these two for battery cables, no other special tool was used. All common household tool. I am surprised to realized that.
So my initial thought is to use a heavy duty long extension cord to to battery bay. Connect the trickle charger to the battery terminal. Turn on the boost switch so that all three batteries can be charged at same time. When the trickle charger is connected, kill a watt shows 0.11AMP reading. So it seems working. To make sure, I text the picture to @stump. For sure I want to get confirmation from him. Well, I guess this starts season 2 ;D
So instead of using the trickle charger, @stump wants me to buy adapters to connect the coach directly to 110V 15AMP outlet. I didn't know that is possible. I thought 50AMP coach can only be connected to 50AMP outlet. Learned something new.
Went to home depot, they don't have the 50AMP to 15 AMP adapter, but they have 50AMP to 30AMP and 30 TO 15 adapter. According to @stump, lots of camp ground don't have 50AMP connection. So it is nice to have a 50 to 30 adapter. Just don't use everything all at once when connected with 30AMP. So it seems necessary to have 50 to 30 and 30 to 15 adapters.
While at the home depot, I was talking with @stump about the WAT (Wife Acceptance Test). It didn't go well. I attribute that to the lack of AC and smell from the old carpet. To run AC, the generator needs to be working. That is going to be the main topic of season 2 ;D .
According to @stump , the smell might not only from the carpet. It might from the black/gray tank. The so called Studor valve. Basically it is a one way valve, it allows air to pass when flushing the toilet. But seal the smell when not in use. There is a spring and rubber to seal the pipe. The rubber will dry out due to age. So the seal is broken causing the smell leak into the living area. @stump even send me a Home depot link. That was easy. I went to the aisle. There are two types of studor valve. One is low cost traditional value in color black. Other is new mushroom like valve in white. The price difference is significant. $7 vs $25. But according to @stump the new valve will last almost a life time. So it worth the investment. Typical coach use two. One under the kitchen, the other under the restroom cabinet. But Home depot price it very interestingly. So 1 for 24.48, but if you buy three, the price will be 16.66. Basically cost to buy 3 3*16.66=49.98 is almost equal to buy 2 (2*24.48=48.86) So why buy 2 if I can buy three with the same amount of money! This turns out to be very lucky.
Went back to the coach follow what @stump told me. Attached the big 50AMP cable to the coach. Use two adapters to connect to 15AMP extension cord. All seems perfect. Plug the 15 amp to the outlet. Boom, circuit break tripped. Of course! The Roof AC is still on. No way 15AMP can run both AC. Luckily the outside circuit breaker is right beside me. I am able to reset the breaker. Went inside the coach, turn off all 110V breakers inside except the power inverter to keep the battery charging. Plug back the out side outlet. It worked! I can hear the inverter humming. However the voltage meter right beside the stair shows 0 volt. @stump think the 15 AMP adapter not powering the other 110 circuit. So that is good!
Next to install the Studor valve, it was easy for the one under the kitchen. Just unscrew the old one, put on the new one. But I am unable to find on under the bath room cabinet. I couldn't believe that. Tried very hard, there is no valve like that. Instead, there are two valves in the closet across the restroom. Rest are easy, unscrew old one. put on new one. Done! Hope this will help the smell of the living space.
For sure I will have another round of deep carpet cleaning. If that doesn't work, I will just pull out all old carpet, replace with wood floor. Most likely that is not DIY work. Needs to hire a company to do it. Hopefully when the smell is gone, AC/Generator are working, I can pass second round of WAT.
Your coach may also have a optional factory installed (separate) modified sine wave inverter.
OR, a previous owner might have replaced one or both of these items with more modern equipment. Very common upgrade.
In 1991 RV battery charging technology was still rudimentary. Older single stage or dual stage convertor/chargers can be very hard on batteries. If you still have the OEM converter/charger in your coach, you should pay close attention to the battery voltage and electrolyte level while they are connected to the charger/converter. Measure the voltage directly at the battery posts with a multimeter - do not rely on the dash voltmeter until you have verified its accuracy.
If you can post a photo of the battery charging device on your coach, we can tell you if it is a good one or a bad one.
There is lots of information online concerning RV battery maintenance. Like you said, those big batteries are expensive. You should do whatever is necessary to keep them in good shape. It will pay off over time. Here is one very basic primer on battery care:
10 Tips to Extend the Life of RV Batteries | KOA Camping Blog (https://koa.com/blog/extend-the-life-of-rv-batteries/)
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Dave Cobb on June 08, 2020, 09:44:55 am
I just wanted you to know, I have enjoyed all your posts, and do hope that you will take the time to keep posting. We all started at the beginning, and even after my 9 years with first a U225 GV and then this U295 for 7 years, I still am learning from reading those posting to your thread.
I am glad you rescued that classic, and hope it brings you and your wife lots of pleasure. And remember a few things:
You don't have a budget, you have a Foretravel Classic. The adventure begins when our plans fall apart. Always leave the tank dump valves closed till you are dumping. And always travel with fresh water, in case you don't arrive where you were headed.
All the best.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 08, 2020, 09:52:45 am
Nice one Dave
Still remember dinner at Bill's/Jo's place with you and Gaylie talking boats.
Pierce
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Carol Savournin on June 08, 2020, 10:09:51 am
I am just loving reading all this! It is interesting and exciting and there are parts that are nailbiters!
Sometimes I wonder about myself.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Rich Bowman on June 08, 2020, 12:50:07 pm
This is a classic on RV electrical that has been around for a long time.
The 12volt Side of Life (Part 1) (http://www.marxrv.com/12volt/12volt.htm)
I am also enjoying you narrative and wish you good luck on your adventures. RVing is a great way of life.
Rich
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Protech Racing on June 08, 2020, 03:50:28 pm
Glad you bought it. Well done. Alt; good chance that the brushes are stuck. Spray the brush pack with some contact cleaner and tap with wrench. Check for 12 v at the big post. Check for 12v at the small post with key on. If the alt has 12v and still no charge, spray with WD40 in the rotor case and brush area. WD40 is flammable so be ready. It may come to life or at least you have readied the parts to be rebuilt
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Running Odometer on June 09, 2020, 10:22:52 am
I use NAPA filters have been for years, Air filter NAPA GOLD 2610 with the hole already in it for the filter minder.
I replaced my Baldwin with a NAPA Gold 2610 also. It was available at the local NAPA store. Fits perfectly with no modifications and have had no problems.
Jerry
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 09, 2020, 12:51:43 pm
For sure I will have another round of deep carpet cleaning. If that doesn't work, I will just pull out all old carpet, replace with wood floor. Most likely that is not DIY work. Needs to hire a company to do it. Hopefully when the smell is gone, AC/Generator are working, I can pass second round of WAT.
We bought a BISSELL ProHeat 2X Revolution Pet Upright Carpet Cleaner | 1548 | Refurbished BISSELL ProHeat 2X Revolution Pet Upright Carpet Cleaner | 1548 | Refurb...Total: $134.36 delivered.
It works great on the wool carpet even with the dogs. No smell and it looks absolutely like new. Works on the headliner, sofa, chairs too and especially around the AC where it meets our carpet headliner. Not so important on the vinyl headliners. Also sucks up water if you have a big leak. Three thumbs up.
Pierce
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Running Odometer on June 09, 2020, 02:40:29 pm
I am working on list of items for the upcoming oil/filter changes
I am unable to find the NAPA Gold 2610 parts online. I appreciate If you can share a link with me.
Do you see any issue with the list?
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Dave Cobb on June 09, 2020, 03:05:40 pm
A quick google search showed NAPA 2610 at fleet filter on line. Retail for $147, but your price $76.25.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: JohnFitz on June 09, 2020, 03:12:39 pm
The NAPA Gold 2610 will not fit a '91 U300. FT made big changes after '91. In '92 and later there's a radiator where our air filter is. Our filter is about 15" in diameter and about 17" tall. No hole or other modification is required. Wix is not known for the best filters. When I do my own work I always go for known good quality since I'm already saving on labor. I purchased a Fleetguard Air Filter AF871M from Simply Filter for $130 but that includes shipping. Be sure to wipe clean the interior of the filter housing where the seal is. According to Fleetguard this is a major source of contaimination. When the old filter is removed caked dirt can fall on the inner surfaces.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 09, 2020, 04:06:12 pm
For those 1992, 93, and 94 U300 owners with the air intake behind the rear tires, this is what a NAPA 2610/Wix 42610 looks like after it gets wet. You can see the side by side construction between the two brand in the photos below. the Donaldson DBA5029 construction is far better than the Wix/NAPA filter. We were really lucky it didn't fail and dust the engine.
Let's get the correct air filter part number for the early U300s in the Foretravel library if possible.
Pierce
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: coastprt on June 09, 2020, 07:10:30 pm
Here's some good Tips, Do's and Don't's from Donaldson filters.
I've been guilty of taking an air filter out and banging it on the ground to knock the dirt out and putting it back in... on my lawn mower but not my coach!
Jerry
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ2HViIGDeQ
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Running Odometer on June 13, 2020, 11:56:24 pm
Generator is running with some hack! 8) 8) 8)
It has been few days since I worked on the GV. I was reading a lot about the generator just to prepare myself to fix it. There is a great website [url=http://www.smokstak.com]Antique Engines Antique Tractors Steam Engines and Old Iron (https://www.smokstak.com/) [/url]that has rich information about ONAN generator. The website allow me to read the content but I can't see any attachment or pictures unless administrator approve my registration. Spend quite some time on that site to read all information about the generator.
Overall, people are saying this generator is very reliable. It is old school mechanical generator. There is not many things can be broken. I like that. Less thing to break, less thing to worry.
The generator Model No. is ONAN 7.5DKDF J27798C. It use Kubota D950 engine supposed to be very reliable. I searched online, Attached is the operators manual I found online. Hope it can be helpful to others with similar model.
On Wed. I worked on the RV try to diagnose why the generator is not working. Based on what I read, if it is not starting, the first thing to check is the fuel line. First thing to check is the fuel pump. When I start the generator, there is no clicking sound from the fuel pump. It seem like the pump is not powered. I use multi-meter to measure am-page and voltage to the pump, it seems like the pump is not getting power. So I decide to take it off.
I sent few pictures to @stump. By looking at the picture, he think the pump might be able to be cleaned and reuse. That is a great suggestion. On my work bench vise, used a big channel pliers to unlock the end cap, there are oil filter inside the cap. NAPA sells this Facet filter and gasket kit, under their own part number, as a 610-1086 (https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/BK_6101086?keywordInput=610+1086), as seen, for under $10.00. I didn't buy new one. The existing one seems clean. Used some brake surface cleaner to get rid of some dust and put it back. Connect to my solar 12V battery and it worked! Another great suggestion from @stump!
During the process, I accidentally get the positive cable out of the pump. I am unable to get the middle cover out. Does anyone know how to get the cover in the circle out? The wire just barely stay in there. It is definitely not reliable.
According to the some online post, the Fuel pump is Facet 574A. It is very reliable. 30~50 year life is possible.
Now I know for sure the fuel pump is working. Next to check is to see if there is any other issue in the fuel line. @stump mentioned that there might be some air bubbles to block the fuel line. So Next thing to do is to bleed the air system. Luckily by reading the operator manual, there is build in bleeding valve near the fuel filter. Open the bleed valve. Run the fuel pump from external power. I see a lot of bubble come out from the bleed valve. What @stump recommend is definitely correct. I let the pump run for a few seconds until I see clear solid fuel come out from the bleeding valve. According the to document, there is no need to bleed to high pressure fuel line. It will bleed by itself.
By watching few videos of the same model generator, I noticed that the proper step is to preheat the glow plug, then hit the start button. Then the solenoid will retract, pull the level off the stop position. At this time, the generator will start
The adapter between the solenoid and the level is missing, so I have to manually pull the solenoid to simulate the step above. Push the level to open position and manually push the solenoid to retract position. The generator seems want to start, but not able to start. After a few tries, I think the fuel pump is not getting power. This is verified by opening the bleeding valve. There is no fuel come out.
So the problem now is the fuel pump is not getting power. All the logic surround the solenoid is causing the issue. I am thinking to by pass the solenoid, just run the fuel pump from external power. This should start the generator. So I connect the fuel pump to my car battery. I can clearly hear the fuel pump working. The solenoid is at the extended position. The level is at the open position
Preheat few second, then hit the start button. The generator fires right up! And it stays running for few minutes. I can't turn off the generator using the button since the solenoid is by passed. I have to manually turn off the lever to stop position.
That is great news. But is it generating power? to tested, I unplug the 110V power. Turn on the circuit breaker for the front and rear AC unit, Microwave. Turn the AC to max. Fire up the generator, and the AC is blowing cool air. So it is generating enough power for both AC and Microwave. It is working! It is very exciting. I texted the video to @stump .
Next just need to find out why the solenoid is not providing power to the fuel pump. I think there is some wire messed up. But at least the generator is working.
From what I read, to properly exercise generator, it needs to run under full load for 10 minutes or longer. I let the generator run for 15 minutes. Then shut off. Everything seems fine.
Next is to change the engine oil and filter and air filter for the generator. I couldn't find the fuel filter. So I didn't change that one. The parts I used are
Engine Oil NAPA straight 40W. The documents ask for straight 40W for 15C plus temperature. But the cap on the generator says straight 30W. I choose to use straight 40W since the 6v92 needs 40W too.
Engine Oil Filter Cummins Onan 122-0833 Oil Filter from Amazon Manual ask for 185-2123. But it is cross referenced to 122-0833
Engine Air filter NAPA gold 6270 (https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/FIL6270) Manual ask for 185-2090
Changing oil is very straight forward. Open the valve at the bottom of the crank case, drain old oil. Change the filter. Refill new oil. I change engine oil on my car, so this is easy. However, I couldn't find anywhere in manual mentioning how much oil is needed. The only sentence related to oil change is to keep as close to full line on the dip stick as possible. So I added 4 Qts of the 40W engine oil and it is right at the full line. Please let me know if you know the exact amount of the engine oil needed?
The next thing I am going to check is the low voltage on the dashboard. I started up the engine, measured 12.54V at the alternator. It seems too low. Right at the alternator, it should be more than 14V. This is something to work on next.
Thanks for you reading!
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 14, 2020, 12:22:44 am
Two things:
1. It is recommended practice on this Forum to start the generator with no loads on it. Allow engine to come up to speed and the voltage output to stabilize. Then turn on the loads (air conditioners, microwave, etc.). This is supposedly easier on the generator.
2. Alternator problem: can you take a better photo of the tag on top of the alternator, and also a photo of the rear end of the alternator where the wires are attached? Need to see the model number. Try to clean off the wiring posts before you take the photo. Once we see the photos, we will have a better idea how to advise.
It looks like you have a "duvac" alternator. If that is correct, the "sense" wire may not be connected correctly. You can search the term "duvac" on this Forum for some long-winded explanations of the term.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 14, 2020, 08:59:18 am
Hopefully the back of your alternator looks like the units in photos below. If true, then we know what we are working with!
See simplified diagram (Thanks to Neal Pillsbury) for DUVAC sense wire connection (Vr = Voltage reference). Note: Sense wire can alternatively be connected to START battery post on isolator.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Carol Savournin on June 14, 2020, 09:28:40 am
I sometimes wonder at myself that I find reading this kind of thing so very interesting. I will NEVER on this earth actually perform any of the steps that are so very well described by Jiaxinxi ... but for some reason, it is just so easy to read and follow and I am right there with him testing voltage.
Anyway .... waiting for the next installment!
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: MT Ted on June 14, 2020, 11:24:53 am
I have the exact generator in my coach, here is a little problem I found with mine. Ive found running the gen. then shutting down for the night. Get up the next morning getting ready to go. Checking coolant and oil in both engines. I pull the dipstick on the gen and theres no oil on it! Im thinking wow what a little oil burner. So I add 2 qts of oil to it. The next week I get ready to take off, the gen is 2 qts over full. What I learned, the seal on the dipstick wont allow any air out over night. When you pull it, it looks like its out of oil. So now when I check my gen. oil. I pull the stick, wait a few seconds then check the oil. Its weird even saying the dipstick is way to good at doing its job.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 14, 2020, 04:10:53 pm
If your generator supply hose is OEM, you may be sucking some air into the system. With a magnifying glass, bend the hose back on itself and look for tiny cracks. Hose is easy to replace and only takes 15 minutes or so if you have a crow's foot for the fitting on the tank and a long rod to attach the new hose on it. The original hose snakes it's way to the tank fitting so attaching it to the old hose is not recommended. Don't slide the generator out as it's best done with the generator in operating position. Leave enough hose to allow for the generator in the out position. Ours is a 1993 so two years newer than yours and this was our problem.
When the generator stops for seemingly no reason, it's usually the hose. With the fuel tank is low, but above the generator pickup, the fuel has to be lifted further (no siphon if hose has a leak) if the hose is leaking, air may be introduced. If you have a good hose, the level of the tank won't make any difference if above the generator pickup in the tank. If you run the pump with a jumper and you see bubbles in the pump discharge, air is getting in, at the tank fitting, hose leak or fitting at the electric pump. Should be nothing but diesel.
Round style Facet electric pump is excellent. They were first made as Bendix and lots of clones are available for $20-$25 on ebay. Aircraft supply stores are probably the least expensive if ever need one. As I remember, the bottom hex is 5/8" to remove to get access to the filter. The nylon filter is then easy to remove. We have to do that on annual aircraft inspections as the Facet is usually the aux fuel pump on thousands of planes.
Pierce
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: JohnFitz on June 14, 2020, 04:28:44 pm
The fuel filter is that black spin-on right under the bleed valve you pointed out. Attached is something I made years ago showing various parts of the generator. You can see the linkage for the Start/Stop solenoid. It looks like the ball joint link broke on yours. I would take it apart and see if a local parts place might be able find something that will work. Otherwise McMaster-Carr probably has something genereric that will work. The thread on mine appears to be 1/4-28. McMaster-Carr (http://www.mcmaster.com/ball-joint-linkages/quick-install-ball-joint-linkages-6/) Search for Ball Joint Link
In regards to the fuel pump connection it looks like that piece is non-repairable; might have to buy a new pump.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Running Odometer on June 15, 2020, 01:06:07 am
Can you see if this is a DUVAC alternator?
Model. No: 25-15
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: oldguy on June 15, 2020, 01:21:34 am
It looks like the feed wire post has been overheated at least from the picture.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Caflashbob on June 15, 2020, 01:24:04 am
I seriously recommend having it rebuilt. Too important not to renew it IMO
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: rbark on June 15, 2020, 01:32:20 am
At least clean the posts and conections. Be careful removing the nuts.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Caflashbob on June 15, 2020, 02:14:36 am
Foretravel used the adjustable voltage alternators so you could turn it to match the temps and battery types.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 15, 2020, 08:25:32 am
Model 25-15 is a common OEM unit on older coaches. This is the same cable connection setup as the ones shown in my Reply #129, so pretty confident it is a DUVAC unit.
As mentioned above, remove the cables and clean up the connections. Apply some penetrating oil to the studs and let it soak in. Try to use a backup wrench at the base of the studs when you remove the fixing nuts. You DO NOT want the studs to turn.
To avoid sparks, disconnect the big positive battery cable at the battery end before removing it from the alternator stud.
The small gauge wire on the small post (nearest the big POS post) is the SENSE wire. While you have it disconnected from the alternator, try to determine where the other end is attached. As shown in the diagram in Reply #129, it should be connected to either the POS battery post on one of the start batteries, OR to the START battery post on the isolator. If you can find the other end, test the continuity of the wire with a multimeter. If there is no continuity (open circuit) see if there is a fuse holder somewhere in the wire. Might just be a blown fuse.
With SENSE wire correctly connected the SENSE terminal on the alternator, when checked with a multimeter, should always read same voltage as START batteries.
Once everything is cleaned up and reconnected, see what kind of output you are getting from the alternator. With engine at idle, you should see around 14 volts at the POS alternator output post.
Don't mess with the adjustment screw on the top of the voltage regulator until you have done the other steps above. The adjustment screw is very sensitive! A small movement of the screw will make a big change in voltage output.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Protech Racing on June 15, 2020, 01:59:54 pm
My sense wire came from the fuel run solonoid . About 12 in from the alt.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: wolfe10 on June 15, 2020, 02:23:53 pm
My sense wire came from the fuel run solonoid . About 12 in from the alt.
I would probably choose a location less "distant" from the chassis battery-- you really want it to accurately telegraph voltage. If it has run through the ignition circuit up front and back to the engine, it may certainly be adequate to hold open the run solenoid, but may be several tenths of a volt lower than actual battery voltage. This can lead to high voltage/overcharging of the batteries. And, even if perfect when new, a little resistance in all those yards of wire and many connections can give lower than actual readings to the alternator.
I like chassis battery lug of the battery isolator or other source directly connected to the chassis battery by large-gauge wires.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Protech Racing on June 15, 2020, 03:24:59 pm
Mine was Oe that way. I'm happy with the charge rate and voltage. 13.7 ish. The duvac charges in cycles. Drops to 12.4 , engages until 13.7 . Sorta like the air system. I also have a 100 amp delco running the house side. The boost combines them of course as does the OE charge controller.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: red tractor on June 15, 2020, 08:51:46 pm
The powerline alternator was a knock off of a Leece Neville. It was a little cheaper. Foretravel used them for a while. I would have it rebuilt and it is a DUVAC.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: wolfe10 on June 15, 2020, 10:03:32 pm
Hehr Powerline is out of Ft Worth, TX. You can check with them for dealers they trust to rebuild their alternators.
There is one in Pearland where I had one rebuilt a couple of years ago: Alternators and Starters Pearland Alternator Co., Inc. Alternator, alternator... (http://www.pearlandalternator.com/#)
But, please completely troubleshoot your charging system before doing anything. A bad battery isolator and bad alternator can have very similar symptoms.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Running Odometer on June 22, 2020, 05:17:09 pm
It is a little bit slow for me to work on the coach since it is in storage now. But I am still working on it.
Follow your guys suggestion and @stump guidance, I did some clean up on the all battery terminals. Alternator Positive/Negative, Isolator all three posts. Starter solenoid, basically everywhere the battery cable is connected, I used metal wire brush to clean the rust and dirty away. Use some circuit board cleaner to remove grease, then put it back.
After all the cleaning, the voltage is still low on the front voltmeter. So most likely the alternator is not functioning well.
I called the Hehr powerline manufacture, they said they can certainly rebuild this model 25-15. But it is at least $500. They can sell me a new one Model No. 25-26 for $900, plus tax and shipping, total about $1000. That is a lot of money.
Called the company recommended by @wolfe10 , they said they are able to rebuilt it, but I am not very sure since this one is so old.
One of the HEHR powerline technician told me a trick to test if the alternator is good and just the regulator is bad. There is a small hole between the two small post. Using a paper clip in stick into the hole and connect with the sense wire, this way, the voltage regulator will be by passed. If the voltage increase with engine RPM increase, then the alternator is good, regulator is bad.
I haven't tried yet. but thought this is good to share to you guys.
When I clean up the connections, I measured the voltage on my battery isolator, I noticed that the three post of the isolator will always hot regardless of the engine running or not. When engine is off, All three post on the isolator show the same voltage. I don't think that is correct based on my understanding on how it works. I think when engine is off, the post connect to the alternator shouldn't have any voltage.
Do I have a bad battery isolator too?
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 22, 2020, 07:12:31 pm
When I clean up the connections, I measured the voltage on my battery isolator, I noticed that the three post of the isolator will always hot regardless of the engine running or not. When engine is off, All three post on the isolator show the same voltage. I don't think that is correct based on my understanding on how it works. I think when engine is off, the post connect to the alternator shouldn't have any voltage.
Do I have a bad battery isolator too?
Six years ago, not long after we purchased our coach, I encountered this exact same situation with our OEM diode isolator.
I posed the same question to the Forum, and we ended up having a lively discussion about this subject. See link below:
Bad Isolator? (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=20662)
Note: The thread linked above does not include my final decision concerning the health of my OEM isolator. In Reply #22, Peter Fleming (a very sharp Forum member) suggested several tests that required DC current measurement. I purchased the meter he recommended, and performed the tests. I came to the conclusion that my OEM isolator was working fine. I ended up leaving it in place, and it performed exactly as designed for the next 4 years. Then, two years ago, I removed the (still functioning) OEM isolator during a complete rebuild/upgrade of my isolator panel.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: ohsonew on June 22, 2020, 08:01:12 pm
Just found this topic. Really enjoying it. I have to admire and respect the work your putting into your coach. I have no suggestions from what I've read except that when cleaning the electrical connections, I would be sure to use die electric grease to help prevent future corrosion. Keep the posts coming.
Larry
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Old Toolmaker on June 22, 2020, 09:12:54 pm
When I clean up the connections, I measured the voltage on my battery isolator, I noticed that the three post of the isolator will always hot regardless of the engine running or not. When engine is off, All three post on the isolator show the same voltage. I don't think that is correct based on my understanding on how it works. I think when engine is off, the post connect to the alternator shouldn't have any voltage.
Do I have a bad battery isolator too?
The output terminal on an alternator is always connected to the battery. Unlike a generator that always has some residual magnetism and because of its design can boot strap that magnetism into full output, an alternator always requires an external source of voltage to start.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 22, 2020, 10:30:05 pm
1. The output terminal on an alternator is always connected to the battery.
2. ...an alternator always requires an external source of voltage to start.
1. In the case of the charging system being discussed here (dual batteries, diode isolator + duvac alternator) the output terminal is not connected to the battery. It is connected to the center post on the diode isolator.
2. This is correct. Since, in this case, the output terminal is not connected to the battery, the alternator must receive the voltage by some other means. Hence the requirement for a voltage SENSE wire which is connected (directly or indirectly) to the start battery positive terminal.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Jeff & Sandy on June 23, 2020, 07:14:53 am
How's it going, LJ?
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Old Toolmaker on June 23, 2020, 08:37:06 am
2. This is correct. Since, in this case, the output terminal is not connected to the battery, the alternator must receive the voltage by some other means. Hence the requirement for a voltage SENSE wire which is connected (directly or indirectly) to the start battery positive terminal.
No IGN terminal?
Either way, I guess the gold standard test for the solid state isolator's condition is to lift the wire from the center terminal and measure the voltage present with a finger on the probe to dissipate any stray voltage.
Two lifetimes ago I walked into an auto parts store and asked for a pair of brushes for a Leece Neville. No questions just some thumbing through a catalog until the question was returned "What kind of a car is a Leece Neville?"
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 23, 2020, 09:01:33 am
Some DUVAC style alternators are "self exciting" and do not require a "hot with ignition" wire. The model 25-15 being discussed above falls into that group.
Other models DO require a external excitation wire and they will have a IGN terminal.
The many variations in alternator wiring setups can cause much confusion. HAS caused much confusion for our Forum members!
Important to read and understand the wiring instructions/requirements for any replacement alternator...preferably before purchase.
They are NOT "one size fits all".
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Old Toolmaker on June 23, 2020, 10:02:45 am
Some DUVAC style alternators are "self exciting" and do not require a "hot with ignition" wire. The model 25-15 being discussed above falls into that group.
Other models DO require a external excitation wire and they will have a IGN terminal.
The many variations in alternator wiring setups can cause much confusion. HAS caused much confusion for our Forum members!
Important to read and understand the wiring instructions/requirements for any replacement alternator...preferably before purchase.
They are NOT "one size fits all".
Thank you Chuck. I've enjoyed the discussion, and I think you've left a good trail of bread crumbs* for not only LJ but others.
Me? I've a Snapper lawnmower clutch to adjust. Part of the good deed I chose to do for my neighbor in honor of my late sister.
In for a penny, in for a pound.
*GM in their infinite frugality chose to wire the "gen" light to start the alternator, leading to the case where if the bulb burns out the alternator won't start. The very definition of single point of failure design.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Running Odometer on June 23, 2020, 10:31:10 am
Just found this topic. Really enjoying it. I have to admire and respect the work your putting into your coach. I have no suggestions from what I've read except that when cleaning the electrical connections, I would be sure to use die electric grease to help prevent future corrosion. Keep the posts coming.
Larry
I am humbled by the kindnesses here in the forum. I can get this far only because the member here.
The knowledge buried in this forum and the members of the forum is unbelievable.
What I did so far is nothing compare to what others did to their bus. I still can't wrap my head around how @stump can fix the whole bulkhead (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=37910.0)by himself. That is serious DIY skill.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Protech Racing on June 23, 2020, 10:36:30 am
Many alt are exited by a diode and single bulb. Not just GM. Most cars in the 60s.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Running Odometer on June 30, 2020, 11:34:52 pm
Alternator changed.
It has been a while since I report back. I am still working on the coach.
As you remember, I was trying to solve the problem of low voltage on the front voltage meter. After few tries, it is clear that the alternator is broken. So I took it out.
@stump mentioned how useful an impact wrench is. So I bought one of the Milwaukee medium torque impact wrench (https://www.homedepot.com/p/Milwaukee-M18-18-Volt-Lithium-Ion-1-2-in-Brushless-Cordless-Mid-Torque-Impact-Wrench-W-Pin-Detent-Kit-W-1-5-0Ah-Battery-2860-21/304139246). 600 ft/lb of nut busting torque is enough to handle most scenarios. The big brother has over 1400 ft/lb of torque, but it is too expensive and too big and heavy. I don't think I will ever need that much torque.
With the help of the little impact wrench, taking the alternator out is piece of cake.
After alternator is out, I called to many shops to get a quota to rebuilt. The one @wolfe10 recommended is in Pearland. It is about a hour away from my house. I called them, they are super nice and seems very knowledgeable about power line alternator. They charge minimum $390 to rebuilt the alternator. I mentioned few people on the forum rebuilt their power line alternator for under $300. The owner said that is few years ago. Everything is more expensive now.
I went to another alternator shop that is about 30 minutes away from my house. They are pretty reputable too on alternator rebuild. They bench tested the alternator to confirm that the alternator is broken. The bearing is also need to be replaced. But it seems like they don't want to rebuild the alternator, so they start recommending new units. a KEI heavy duty alternator for $670. A Delco Romey 28SI alternator for $380.
Wait a minutes, If it cost at least $400 to rebuild the alternator, why not buy a new one? If buy a new one, why buy from a local retailer. There are definitely better place to buy online.
So I took my alternator home and start searching options for new alternator or if I can rebuild by myself.
The manufacture of powerline alternator is now HD Power Solutions (https://hdpsi.com/alternators/). They are still in Fort-worth area. I called them few times. They are super nice people. Very helpful. But they said to rebuild the alternator by them, it will be at least $500. They can sell me a newer updated model 25-16 HD alternator for a discounted price of $900 plus tax. That is beyond my budget for a alternator. True it is nice for the alternator to last another 30 years. But I seriously doubt if I am still going to drive the same coach after 30 years. So it is not an economic way for me to invest another $1000 for a 30 years service life.
Their tech support guy is very friendly and helpful. The guy I talked to seems to know everything out of his mind. He has been there for over 25 years. I think he might be the one who build this particular alternator :)) . So he knows inside out the alternator. He even give me his cell phone number so that I can call him any time I want. Absolutely best tech support. With his help, I quickly determined the alternator is broken and it could be as simple as broken brush or a broken rectifier. With it out of the engine bay, I took the voltage regulator off to check the brush. It is pretty obvious that one of the brush has broken metal ribbon. See the picture. So the first step is to find a replacement brush. They seems still have parts available for this model. Bearing $45 each needs two of them. Brush $15. I might take time to gradually rebuild the alternator by myself later.
So rebuilding alternator might now be an option for the near future. Buying a new one seems to be the better option. My requirement is clear a 200AMP alternator with J-180 mount. Oh boy, there are so many options for the alternator. Price range from $100 all to way to $1200. From 100 AMP to 500 Amp. It is confusing.
Since the alternator shop mentioned Delco Remy 28SI as a replacement, I start looking for this particular model. It seems like this model is very popular for 18 wheeler truck. Nothing too fancy, just a reliable alternator. But finding a geniune Delco Remy online seems to be challenging. There are so many website offering that model, and the price varies greatly. I think those major auto parts store should have decent price. Autozone, AdvanceAutoParts, Oreilly and NAPA. After looking around on these store website, one particular model on AdvanceAutoParts stands out, it is carquest hd alternator 28SI. Judging form the model no, it is very likely a re-branded Delco Remy 28SI. And most importantly there is a 25% coupon for fathers day. So I places order on Advanced auto parts. It come out at $250 shipped to home. Not bad for a 200AMP alternator from a trusted store. I know I can return to AAP local shop if there is anything wrong.
While waiting for the parts to arrive, I needs to take the pulley out from the old alternator. Again the guy from manufacturer over the phone helped me hand by hand to get the pulley out of the old alternator. Great Tech support. He is surprised that I have an impact wrench. That little boy make things so much easier. As @stump said, it will totally worth the cost if you use it just once. I totally agree with that. With the pulley out, I took the body apart, as you can see from the picture, there are a lot of rust and greasy inside the body. Not sure if it is rebuild-able by DIY.
After few days, the alternator arrived. To my surprise, it is not a Delco Remy 28SI. Instead it is manufactured by WAI (https://www.waiglobal.com/). It seems like WAI is a big auto parts group, they might did the manufacture for or even own the brand of Delco Remy. So it is not a DR 28SI, but it is from the same manufacturer. It should have same quality.
Installed pulley follows Delco Remy 28SI manual. Then installed on the engine. The original cable is too short. I have to cut the zip tie to loose the case to reach the terminal. It pretty tight for the positive and sense wire. I have to pull the wire really hard to get enough to reach to the post. Hope this will not cause any issue in the long run.
Since the tachometer is not reporting accurately. I bought a cheap laser tachometer. (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001N4QY66/). Put tiny reflective tape on the wheel that drives the alternator so that I can use the device to measure the RPM.
After everything is put back, I am super nervous to start the engine. I am afraid I might break something else. But I am glad to see that everything seems to work just fine. The voltage meter show 14V reading now. The tachometer shows 1173 RPM at idle. The Tachometer on the dashboard shows about 860RPM. I think the alternator drive wheel is different from the engine RPM. But both are pretty close. The tachometer might be working fine.
I know it is too long of a post just to change an alternator. Somebody might be able to change it within few minutes. But for people like me who are not very familiar with heavy duty truck, it took some time to get over the initial fear.
Thanks for your reading. Hope it can be helpful to somebody else. Now I can proudly remove 1 items from my 933 to-do list 8) .
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: craneman on June 30, 2020, 11:49:03 pm
The tachometer pulley is smaller than the crank pulley is why rpm reads different. Put the tape on the crank pulley if you want to compare the dash to what the digital reads.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Running Odometer on June 30, 2020, 11:53:23 pm
The tachometer pulley is smaller than the crank pulley is why rpm reads different. Put the tape on the crank pulley if you want to compare the dash to what the digital reads.
Where is the crank pulley?
Edit: fix typo crack => crank
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: craneman on July 01, 2020, 12:39:13 am
Not crack pulley, crank pulley. Crankshaft pulley is the pulley at the bottom front of the engine that the belts go to.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Andy 2 on July 01, 2020, 08:55:48 am
Your idle speed on that motor should be around 600 RPMs just a FYI good job and good luck 👍
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 01, 2020, 10:36:37 am
Before you spend big bucks for an overpriced shop alternator, check ebay. They are not expensive with a new one about $250. A small electrical shop should be able to rebuild with new bearings, etc for around $100. We have a shop in the next town that rebuilds alternators for $65 unless major parts are needed. This even includes aircraft alternators.
If you are new to RV ownership, the repair process has a lot of minefields. Ask source questions on the forum before getting ripped off.
All Detroit 2-cycles in Foretravels should idle almost exactly at 600 RPM as the speed is controlled by the DDEC II ECU. The same for fuel cutoff RPM at 2130 max.
Pierce
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on July 01, 2020, 10:44:50 am
The broken ribbon wire on the brush may have been the main (or perhaps only) cause of your original "low output voltage" problem.
How to Tell If Alternator Brushes Are Bad | It Still Runs (https://itstillruns.com/tell-alternator-brushes-bad-7343153.html)
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Running Odometer on July 01, 2020, 11:19:18 am
Before you spend big bucks for an overpriced shop alternator, check ebay. They are not expensive with a new one about $250. A small electrical shop should be able to rebuild with new bearings, etc for around $100. We have a shop in the next town that rebuilds alternators for $65 unless major parts are needed. This even includes aircraft alternators.
If you are new to RV ownership, the repair process has a lot of minefields. Ask source questions on the forum before getting ripped off.
All Detroit 2-cycles in Foretravels should idle almost exactly at 600 RPM as the speed is controlled by the DDEC II ECU. The same for fuel cutoff RPM at 2130 max.
Pierce
I am going to see if any shop nearby can rebuilt for less than $200. If so, I will keep the powerline alternator as back up.
As to the RPM, I have no way to verify the RPM since the Tachometer is not displaying correct value. As I mentioned in my last post, I bought a cheap laser tachometer to measure the RPM of the wheel that powers the alternator, My reading is about 1170 RPM. Other friends mentioned that I should measure the crank shaft. Where is the crank shaft? Is it the one drives the radiator fan?
I read also, new alternator can also change the RPM reading. Since some of the Tachometer based on alternator pulse.
Is there anyway I can read those information from the DDECII ECU directly?
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 01, 2020, 11:58:43 am
Yes, buy a ProLink 9000 and your can read out about 45 different values, test injectors and change some operating parameters. But it might be better for you to buy the Bluefire adapter and use a tablet to read out the information. My first choice would be a Samsung Galaxy Tab S2 or above as they are the best tablets on the market. iPad are also excellent but more expensive for less. BlueFire LLC (https://bluefire-llc.com/website)
You need a list of questions and another owner looking over your shoulder. You have an excellent attitude. PM for more information.
Pierce
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: JohnFitz on July 01, 2020, 12:40:56 pm
The tach is all electronic as is all engine controls (DDEC II) and the cruise control. My guess is it might just be wiring in the dash area and if not, a new dash gauge should be all that is needed. In terms of priorities, I would place fixing the tach pretty low on my list; the engine and tranny computers take care of the RPM for you.
I too would suggest a VMSpc system over a ProLink. The Bluefire appears to be a new competitor to VMS so I don't have an opinion on them. The Prolink is a handheld mechanics tool. The VMS is for a driver who wants more information while driving and it shows multiple items on a tablet simultaneously. If I didn't already have a system I would get a setup from Roger listed in the Commercial Listing section of the forum; you will get personalized support too. It's worth it just to have an accurate engine temperature readout. The dash gauge is just not that accurate and backups to all the dash gauges it great to have and will save you a lot of worry.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 01, 2020, 01:06:14 pm
Both VMS and BlueFire are readers, not tools. One works on almost all platforms, is wireless, costs much less and you don't have to use Windows. If you want to test injectors and have a 1000 rpm fast idle, you have the Prolink as it is a tool, not just a reader. That said, it is not nearly as convenient for driving down the road.
And yet again, the cruise control fast idle that works on some coaches does NOT work on a Detroit U300. You have to DIY the wiring or use a ProLink.
Pierce
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Caflashbob on July 01, 2020, 01:39:15 pm
The posted eBay LN alternator does not have the adjustable voltage regulator of the oem one. .2 volts too high on my particular coach and install. May reinstall my rebuilt oem one. Mine needed one diode and the bearings which were not an easy install per the Marine company I used. $300 in Costa Mesa in Orange County, ca.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Running Odometer on July 01, 2020, 02:24:58 pm
Yes, buy a ProLink 9000 and your can read out about 45 different values, test injectors and change some operating parameters. But it might be better for you to buy the Bluefire adapter and use a tablet to read out the information. My first choice would be a Samsung Galaxy Tab S2 or above as they are the best tablets on the market. iPad are also excellent but more expensive for less. BlueFire LLC (https://bluefire-llc.com/website)
You need a list of questions and another owner looking over your shoulder. You have an excellent attitude. PM for more information.
Pierce
I have @stump looking over my shoulder ;D and all you guys.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Running Odometer on July 01, 2020, 02:26:03 pm
The tach is all electronic as is all engine controls (DDEC II) and the cruise control. My guess is it might just be wiring in the dash area and if not, a new dash gauge should be all that is needed. In terms of priorities, I would place fixing the tach pretty low on my list; the engine and tranny computers take care of the RPM for you.
I too would suggest a VMSpc system over a ProLink. The Bluefire appears to be a new competitor to VMS so I don't have an opinion on them. The Prolink is a handheld mechanics tool. The VMS is for a driver who wants more information while driving and it shows multiple items on a tablet simultaneously. If I didn't already have a system I would get a setup from Roger listed in the Commercial Listing section of the forum; you will get personalized support too. It's worth it just to have an accurate engine temperature readout. The dash gauge is just not that accurate and backups to all the dash gauges it great to have and will save you a lot of worry.
I thought VMSpec is for newer coach like 2000+. Never thought it can be installed on a 91 coach.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Running Odometer on July 01, 2020, 02:49:33 pm
The posted eBay LN alternator does not have the adjustable voltage regulator of the oem one. .2 volts too high on my particular coach and install. May reinstall my rebuilt oem one. Mine needed one diode and the bearings which were not an easy install per the Marine company I used. $300 in Costa Mesa in Orange County, ca.
Is it really necessary to have adjustable voltage regulator?
The old alternator (Powerline 25-15) only have three wires, Positive, Negative and Sense wire. The new alternator (Carquest 28SI) has many more terminals. But I just use the Positive Negative and Sense wire. I don't see how the DUVAC in play with just three wires. I guess time will tell.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on July 01, 2020, 03:51:04 pm
1. Is it really necessary to have adjustable voltage regulator? 2. I don't see how the DUVAC in play with just three wires.
1. No (My opinion only) 2. DUVAC will work fine with just the three wires you connected IF the small SENSE wire is connected properly to START battery B+ post.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Caflashbob on July 01, 2020, 04:42:40 pm
The adjustable voltage allows some compensation in the charging voltage if desired for temp and battery types.
Starting in mid 97 the standard heart freedoms inverter chargers had the ability to adjust the voltage for temperature.
The alternator side normally does not have temp compensation. Unless you have a marine external voltage regulator.
So the adjustable units allow you to turn down the max voltages.
Brett mentioned the same number as Foretravel used in production as being 13.6 volts at the battery as a compromise.
Automotive alternators made for valve regulated lead acid are set for 14.1 or so at the batteries.
My understanding is in later model nice cars like a BMW that are equipped with AGM batteries that the voltage is set lower 13.9?
Given the multiple reports of over 10 years service life of the Unicoaches oem mk gels and optima red tops the 13.6 seems to be a workable number.
Hot summer the correct voltage might be in the low 13's float. Deep winter the 14 is more correct.
Hard to do temp compensation on the alternator side as the engine batteries being in the engine bay on the Unicoaches get much hotter and drop the charging voltages excessively.
The unihomes were made for flooded cell batteries in a vented box and can take the higher voltages.
They require more care and feeding and have much shorter lives.
We used to turn up the alternators for a long drive to equalize worn flooded cells. Helped but not very accurate.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: JohnFitz on July 02, 2020, 02:30:44 pm
I thought VMSpec is for newer coach like 2000+. Never thought it can be installed on a 91 coach.
For '91 U300, the VMS only talks to the engine computer; not the transmission. VMS only started talking the the transmission with the introduction of the "World Transmission" series (i.e 6 speeds). There are also quite few VMS functions that don't work on the DDEC II (at least for the '91 year): trip MPG and horsepower to name a couple. But all the real important ones like oil pressure, oil temperature, engine temp, boost pressure and battery voltage are there along with other "interesting" things like throttle position, cruise control speed set, fuel temperature, rolling MPG, instantaneous MPG, fuel burn in gallons per hour and others. The setting for the VMS list engines to choose from. There is no DD 6V92, but there is the 8V92 500hp which is what mine is set; so the HP reading is off by that factor.
VMS will also read all the fault codes on the engine. You can actually do that without any VMS or other reader by using the switch under the dash and reading the "check engine light" flashes. That process and the definition of each code is in your users manual for the coach.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Running Odometer on July 18, 2020, 01:12:29 am
It has been a while because the coach was in the shop for the whole time.
I was testing driving the coach few weeks ago. I was trying to find if the gear can be shifted to the 4th gear. approximately 65 mile/hour. According to @stump this is the best speed for the coach. My speedometer and tachometer is not working properly. The readings are way above real value. For example, when the real speed is 30 MPH, speedo shows 75 Mph. Tacho shows over 2500 RPM. Following @stump suggestion, I used a GPS speedometer on my phone, it display the speed properly. I can confirm that the gear was shifted to the 4th position. Otherwise, the transmission is bad and it is going to cost a fortune to fix transmission. In that scenario, the best solution is just to sell the coach again. I really can't handle it anymore. Luckily the transmission seems fine. In fact, I have watched so many "Can you start" video on youtube about 30~50 years old diesel truck. I never see the host worried about transmission. As long as the engine starts, they just start driving. Nobody seems to worried about transmission. I guess most truck transmissions are super reliable. Rarely become an issue.
Again, it is super lucky for me to return to the storage facility safely. While I was driving, I can hear grinding noise come from the front axle. It is pretty loud under the driver side. Air suspension is supposed to be quiet and smooth. The noise form front axle is definitely not normal. I took the hub cover off, there is no oil in the hub at all. Only water inside. The coach was parked in a place where the front AC condensation water drop right pass the front axle. For the 15 years it parked there, water has come into the hub through the pressure release hole. Talked to @stump, he give me direction on how to change the front axle bearing. It is not easy job, but definitely doable, at least for @stump . Also I read on the forum (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=36451.msg346452#msg346452), Ron the Red Tractor was able to fix somebody's front axle within 3 hour including a trip to the part store. So I thought it is not that big of deal, I might be able to DIY.
I bought box jack, impact socket to try to take off the front wheel. But the wheel nut was fastened using 1 inch air gun by the tire guys. It is way over torqued. My little Milwaukee mid torque impact wrench with 650 lb-ft torque can't take the nuts off. Not even close. The manual ask for 450 lb-ft. I guess those tire guys way over torqued the lug nuts. Consulted with @stump, he think it is better to send to a shop to do it. Since rebuilding front axle is a pretty standard job for any decent heavy duty truck shop. it won't cost too much.
Luckily there is a diesel mechanic shop 15 minutes away from the storage facility. I added some more water to the hub and drive very slowly to the shop. According to the mechanic, as long as the hub is not over heated, water is fine. 20MPH So 15 minutes turn into 30 minutes drive.
Before I drop the coach to the shop, the shop manager promise me everything I asked. I want to read the DDEC computer, he said no problem. I want them to check the generator, he said no problem. I want them to change the coolant hose, he said no problem. I guess, he probably will say no problem to covert the 6V92 to a Tesla. Of course he can't do everything he promised. He just try to get me in the shop.
So after few weeks and about 1.3 CB( Couch Buck=$1000,right?), I got the following done.
Coollant flush. Per @stump suggestion, the coolant was changed from Green to Red. Red is the better version of green
Grease the chassis. Not the brake caliper
Overall inspection of the airline, brake and other components. Overall seems good
Rebuild front axle. new inner outer bearing. Reused the hub cover
Replace 5 rusted wheel studs. Those studs are expensive. Around $50 each.
Change Engine oil using the Delco 100 straight 40 and filter I provided
Change primary fuel filter
No engine computer reading
The parts really doesn't cost that much. Most of cost are labor. After watching the mechanic doing it, I think the money is well spent. There is no way I can rebuild the front hub by myself under the Texas summer heat. Some time I have to let the professional do it. And also @stump said the front is the steering axle. It is super important to get it working properly otherwise, bad thing will happen. The mechanic showed me the old racer, due to the age and long parking, there are dents on the racer. The bearing is slightly deformed. That is probably the cause of the noise.
I took a test drive after everything is done. The grinding noise is gone. Still not very smooth, but I don't expect that for a 30 year old coach. I think with this, most of the chassis related work is done. Needs to start work on house related issue. Generator first.
With the expense in the diesel shop, I am close to 10 CB now. Just as I predicted in my previous post. I don't know if tires are counted as coach bucks or not. I think CB are for repairs, not maintenance. Tire are maintenance item. They needs to be changed regardless of the coach condition. I know I am just try to find excuse to justify my purchase of the cheap coach. As @stump said, I still haven't spend the $7K asked by the mobile mechanic to replace air suspension bag.
Thanks for you time! Have a great day!
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Running Odometer on July 18, 2020, 01:34:47 am
Also, while driving on the road, the coach tends to get people's attention. While waiting on the traffic light, a guy beside the coach seems really excited to see the coach. Chat with him a little bit. He can't believe the coach is 1991.
I am pretty sure you guy's coach will get way many attention. What do you do?
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Old Toolmaker on July 18, 2020, 08:15:52 am
We politely answer as many questions as we have time.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: MikeMcK on August 05, 2020, 05:26:12 pm
The challenge right now it that the RV can't move. It has to be serviced on the spot. This limit the choice. What is the typical cost to change air bag, change engine oil?
I can tell you the cheapest I have found Rotella T1 straight 40W is at tractor supply. $14.99 per gallon. I have to feed 2 8V71's in my Hatteras 45C so I stay with the Rotella as it is about 10 bucks a gallon cheaper than Delo. The Chevron has a bit lower ash content than the Shell but not enough difference for me to justify the difference in price. And as you mentioned there is no more beautiful sound than a running Detroit unless it's 2 Detroit's on my boat.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on August 05, 2020, 05:54:34 pm
I can tell you the cheapest I have found Rotella T1 straight 40W is at tractor supply. $14.99 per gallon. I have to feed 2 8V71's in my Hatteras 45C so I stay with the Rotella as it is about 10 bucks a gallon cheaper than Delo. The Chevron has a bit lower ash content than the Shell but not enough difference for me to justify the difference in price. And as you mentioned there is no more beautiful sound than a running Detroit unless it's 2 Detroit's on my boat.
I buy 7 gallons of Delo 100 #40 for the 5.5 gallon change from the Chevron distributor here in our small town. It costs $96 out the door so about $13.70/gal. Your supplier is sticking it to the rich boat owners. If they are out of stock, they will bring it up the hill from Sacramento.
But Rotella is good stuff too and the Delo's lower ash probably won't make a difference.
I can resist finding a tunnel and winding it up and then using the Jake. If recorded it would easily win a Grammy Award. Old Ferrari V12 would be a close second.
Pierce
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: MikeMcK on August 05, 2020, 10:38:27 pm
I buy 7 gallons of Delo 100 #40 for the 5.5 gallon change from the Chevron distributor here in our small town. It costs $96 out the door so about $13.70/gal. Your supplier is sticking it to the rich boat owners. If they are out of stock, they will bring it up the hill from Sacramento.
But Rotella is good stuff too and the Delo's lower ash probably won't make a difference.
I can resist finding a tunnel and winding it up and then using the Jake. If recorded it would easily win a Grammy Award. Old Ferrari V12 would be a close second.
I'm in Phoenix but boat is in Ensenada Mexico. Supplier is Tractor Supply so not many boat owners. West Marine will and has price matched. They are asking $26.00 per gallon from rich boat owners. Me well just a poor slop with a 72 Hatteras. Usually fishing 2 to 3 days a week while Yellow Tail are running May to Nov. Leads to 2 oil changes per year. This year not so much as Harbor was closed in May until July and I'm stuck in Phoenix with some minor health issues. So half the year not fishing much so hunting for a vintage Foretravel. 91 or 92. Just me and the dog so a 35 footer no slide is big enough. Mike
Pierce
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Running Odometer on August 10, 2020, 01:01:46 am
It has been a while, but I am still working on the coach. I think I made some progress so far.
Start from the easy part.
Get the shower sprout and shower head installed (https://www.foreforums.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=4470)
Changed the AC air filter. The old one is total deteriorated. Those AC filter are expensive. $15 for one pair. $30 for both AC. It is washable. Hope they can last for a while
I searched on amazon, just can't find any RV skylight with size 24 x 24. Searched online found skylightdepot (https://www.skylightdepot.com/) in Tucson AZ. I ordered 24 x 24 polycarbonate skylight. I was unable to find 24 x 24 in RV dome section. Only in the residential skylight section. Later talked with the owner Penn, he confirmed that with Poly-carbonate as material, it is perfectly fine to use as RV skylight dome.
Total cost is $100 plus $15 shipping. It is packed extremely well. Highly recommend.
Installation is a little bit challenging. I read a few post here. I have no way to follow all the procedure and steps described in the post. So I just use my KISS (keep it simple and stupid methodology) to installed it.
First a good clean of the inner panel. Use some simple green to clean the grease, then use some rubbing alcohol to clean again.
Applied some transparent silicon on the top of the skylight opening.
For the tape, I used the 3M VHB 4910 (https://www.amazon.com/3M-Scotch-4910-VHB-Tape/dp/B00I4E4NE8) tape (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71iqg3Tt7LL._AC_SL1500_.jpg)
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Running Odometer on August 10, 2020, 01:09:00 am
Fixing the toilet Fantastic vent fan (https://www.foreforums.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=4481)
The vent cover switch in the red circle is not working. The part no is Atwood K11220-05. Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LNH2YM6) sell for $15
I made mistake by cutting the wire. But it actually can be pulled out. Luckily I have a box of connector ready so just installed a new one. and the fan it back to work!
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Running Odometer on August 10, 2020, 01:31:48 am
Another restoration of the Kool-O-Matic fan
Fixing the Fantastic fan was easy. Fixing the Kool-O-Matic fan was not easy. There are many post on the forum. Followed those posts, I am able to get all the parts
Motor: NAPA 655-2378 (https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/BK_6552378?keywordInput=6552378) now for &57
Also, the employee at Grainger said, they have the exact replacement for the motor. The part no is 62HY23 (https://www.grainger.com/product/DCM-Heater-Motor-62HY23?searchBar=true&searchQuery=62HY23). for $49. Little bit cheaper than NAPA. But I have already ordered the NAPA motor.
The biggest challenge for me is to take the fan blade off from the old motor axle. It was seized so hard that I can't loose it. I have to cut the motor shaft. and use a hammer to get the remaining axle out from the fan blade. The whole process of taking fan blade out took few days. @stump mentioned a special puller. I bought the wrong one. (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/819IzWjMl%2BL._AC_SL1500_.jpg) This kind will not work.
But the bolt is long enough to hold the new motor. No need to buy new bolt. I was so annoyed by the seized fan blade. so I decided to put on some anti seize. Apply to all the thread generously. Hope it will not seize again. (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71EpKP7DlWL._AC_SL1500_.jpg)
The second biggest challenge is to get the old rubber isolator off. Since the rubber fell off from the metal base. There is nothing on the inside to hold the metal. So if I unscrew the nuts from the roof, the metal base will turn at the same time. Make it impossible to take off the old bolts and nuts. I have to use Dremel to cut the bolts off. It was not easy to cut all three of them.
Once the old bolts and nuts is off, Install the new one is easy.
put new isolator. Put new motor. Re connect wire Yellow is positive Black is positive White is ground
(https://www.foreforums.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=4489) Kool-O-Matic Fan with cover on.
The fan is not quiet. It moves a lot of air. I can feel it from the sofa. I think the blade is designed to be aggressively moving the air. The new motor is bigger than the old one. I hope it can last longer. May be another 30 years >:D
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: prfleming on August 10, 2020, 12:09:08 pm
You mentioned feeling the kitchen fan on the sofa, you have the fan running the right way and exhausting air up and out of the coach, correct...?
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Running Odometer on August 18, 2020, 11:26:36 am
Yes, I am sure it is rotating in correct direction. It is rotating clockwise and pushing the air out the coach.
You should have two speeds - high and low - on your fan control. We usually start ours on high to get it spinning, then switch to low. I agree ours is pretty aggressive on high speed, but do not find it objectionable on low speed. We use ours mostly when cooking on the gas burners. It is very effective for expelling heat, steam and cooking odors from the coach.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Running Odometer on August 18, 2020, 12:12:36 pm
Awning repair
The awning on my GV was not functioning properly. It was stuck. Unable to be unfolded using the pull string in the middle. I called Zip Dee. They are very responsive. The phone was picked up immediately by a human. However, they said the lock mechanism is broken. I need to buy the lock. It is $148 per piece. I needs 2 of them. Ouch!
Searching the forum, many post mentioned that the awning will be stuck if it is not used for a long time. @stump also mentioned that in one of his earlier post. The solution is to apply liberal amount of silicon lubricant. Then pull the awning on both side using brutal force. It will unfold.
Follow the direction, I am able to get the awning unfold with some really hard push on each side of the roller. I was happy for a few minutes. But soon discovered that I may just pushed too hard. The 4 rivets connect the roller and the non-spring load side lock were sheared off. The lock and roller were disconnected with each other. To unwind the awning, I have to re-rivet them together.
The hardest part is to drill the old rivet out. I probably broke at least 5 1/8 drill bits. Under 110 Texas sun, with no reliable way to hold the end cap, it was a struggle to get all the old rivet out. But I guess that is the sweat equity people talked about.
Once the over rivet is out. I use 1/8 1/2 rivet to reconnect the roller and the end cap. That was super easy.
Well, still not done yet, one of the arm is stuck. So I will have to try the torch method mentioned by some of the forums. To be continued
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: nitehawk on August 18, 2020, 12:27:17 pm
Zip Dee is great on service, but wait until you sit down before asking or getting the shipping costs!
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: pthurman48 on August 18, 2020, 12:37:17 pm
If you are talking about putting heat on the stuff, use a air heat gun.
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on August 18, 2020, 12:43:33 pm
I noticed on your entry step, you have at least one rivet missing. This progresses to 2 and then 3... I drilled all ours out and tapped for 5/16" and installed stainless button head cap screws on both sides of the hinge. I also tapped the step where the fiberglass was riveted to the step.
When you have the step off, cleaning all the rust off, either with a HF on sale $14 sandblaster or with acid. I primed it and then used black anti rust frame paint from Summit Racing. It wears like iron and even without any covering, I can't even scratch it with my feet. https://www.summitracing.com/search?SortBy=BestKeywordMatch&SortOrder=Ascending&keyword=black%20frame%20rust%20paint
Pierce
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Running Odometer on August 18, 2020, 12:57:51 pm
I noticed on your entry step, you have at least one rivet missing. This progresses to 2 and then 3... I drilled all ours out and tapped for 5/16" and installed stainless button head cap screws on both sides of the hinge. I also tapped the step where the fiberglass was riveted to the step.
When you have the step off, cleaning all the rust off, either with a HF on sale $14 sandblaster or with acid. I primed it and then used black anti rust frame paint from Summit Racing. It wears like iron and even without any covering, I can't even scratch it with my feet. https://www.summitracing.com/search?SortBy=BestKeywordMatch&SortOrder=Ascending&keyword=black%20frame%20rust%20paint
Pierce
I didn't even notice the missing rivet on the door step. Thanks for mentioning that.
But first I needs to get the step closed. I have read @chuck excellent thread (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=28607.msg238885#msg238885) many times. Just hasn't had time to work on it yet. But it will be tackled soon or later.
So many things are broken. My sweat equity is growing very fast :(
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Running Odometer on August 18, 2020, 01:02:48 pm
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: stump on August 18, 2020, 07:32:32 pm
Take out the little pull button. It unscrews.spray some pb blaster in the hole and where the tube slides take a piece of wood and a hammer and try to work it loose where the slip in work both directions
Title: Re: 1991 U300-- bought it!
Post by: Running Odometer on August 24, 2020, 11:18:09 am