Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: dsd on May 29, 2020, 04:40:30 pm
Title: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: dsd on May 29, 2020, 04:40:30 pm
I am long distance trouble shooting and without personally being able to touch "yet" can anyone identify this filter assembly. I'm guessing it's the Winn 200200 that will need the retro kit or other replacement of filter and primer pump assembly, fittings. Any information and suggestions are appreciated. Would like to pre-purchase some parts that require lead time before we drive 1200 miles to look at it. Suspecting it's a 2001? U320 ISM450. If the coach looks good we plan to repair what is needed and return home with it. Thanks for your help. Scott and Kim
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: craneman on May 29, 2020, 04:46:47 pm
You just opened up a can of worms. Everyone has an opinion on that setup. I am against the grain on this one as I am going with "if it ain't broke why mess with it". I have it and carry both spare filters. I also have a Davco that I will put on if and when mine fails and I can't fix it.
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: Caflashbob on May 29, 2020, 05:05:26 pm
Constant vacuum leaks from the Winn. Fixed mine 3 times. Replaced with a Parker racor. Not a field job. Replaced the fuel lines also as the low sulphur fuel destroys the rubber oem lines. HPDM? Replacement is required.
Ask about fuel lines. If not budget $2k plus the filter at $350 plus install.
If the tank get low on your drive home and the tank is lower than the motor when parked overnight and it won't start that's a vacuum leak and/or the Winn.
There is a button on the Winn to reprime it. May take several times,
Keep the tank full when parking overnight and/or a slight nose up parking place.
Low tank(1/2 or less) and nose down several times was when I noticed the problem.
Major Cummins shop in LA mechanic used to work for a major truck line when the Winn's were new and being used diagnosed the leak and bypassed the unit then continued the dyno run
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: dsd on May 29, 2020, 05:05:33 pm
This will be keep as simple as possible. 1200 miles away from my shop. I want to get it safely operating and go home. So what would I need so I could accomplish that? What filter assembly is this? if I knew, it wouldn't be a question. Better to carry a case of filters than search on sight
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on May 29, 2020, 05:10:25 pm
Looks as if it came from Winn-Dixie to me. Since you have one Chuck, what does it do? It looks to be next to a Racor primary filter so what is it's job? Is it a secondary filter?
Pierce
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: dsd on May 29, 2020, 05:30:49 pm
The S3230P filters are available threw Napa. I searched for the RK12963 retro kit and if this is what I need I will order. 10 days lead time. Order a case of the filters at there local Napa Dealer location. Just want to be a 100% sure that is what I need because I'm unable to visually get identification. I personally don't know. What filter assembly it is. If I change later I'll have time and accommodations at home.
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: craneman on May 29, 2020, 06:46:33 pm
Looks as if it came from Winn-Dixie to me. Since you have one Chuck, what does it do? It looks to be next to a Racor primary filter so what is it's job? Is it a secondary filter?
Pierce
It is the primary filter and has an electric fuel and water purge.
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: rbark on May 29, 2020, 06:53:20 pm
Are you saying the coach doesn't run right now? I have the same setup and is OEM. Haven't had a problem yet. The plastic piece is more like a pre strainer for the primary filter. If it doesn't leak, I'd drive it home then go about changing it if you wish.
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: dsd on May 29, 2020, 07:15:47 pm
It's sat for 5-10 years. Have to be able to change filters for poor/bad fuel. Can't change filters if I don't know if the retro kit has been installed or it has the 200200 filter which is discontinued. I have only seen pictures, but if we like it we will take it home after repairs in the field were it is parked. If someone can recognize if the RK12963 is installed then I'll just buy filters otherwise I'll order kit and filters to get home Thanks Scott
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: Johnstons on May 29, 2020, 08:39:21 pm
That looks like the one we had on our 2002. The good thing was when it sat a long time at the MOT service department without a full tank we got algae, It'll was Immediately visible in that clear filter so we never had a surprise fuel problem while we were getting it cleaned up.
If it starts and runs without changing that filter you will quickly see if you have a problem.
Where are you going to pick the coach up? There may be a forum member nearby who would be glad to look things over with you.
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: D.J. Osborn on May 29, 2020, 09:03:36 pm
I replaced mine with a Parker Racor 790R30 and I'm pleased with the results. The new filter assembly eliminated the issues I had been experiencing. I used the same hoses but had to change some fittings and so ir would be good to have a Parker store nearby when you do the work.
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: Caflashbob on May 29, 2020, 09:28:58 pm
Keep the tank full as much as possible to get home.
Down hill to the Winn helps any issues.
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: dsd on May 29, 2020, 10:22:50 pm
Yes we have had a member look at it. The Parker Racor 790R30 is a great choice. Will probably end up there but need to find out filter number for the filter in the first line. Don't want to take on mods to get home. KISS (keep it simple st***d) If the primer pump is bad I'll change to the 790.
So still don't know If the RK12963 has been retro fitted in picture
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: craneman on May 29, 2020, 10:55:04 pm
I have the S3230P element on mine and I looks just like your picture. Any chance the seller could look on the filter as the numbers are very clear on mine.
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: dsd on May 29, 2020, 11:42:51 pm
Chuck thank you. So I believe your filter and mine have both been modified with the RK12963 when the 200200 went obsolete. I recall the last 200200 filter I looked at did not have the two piece filter end cap, just a drain plug, but I'm not positive. This has been drawn out for months and the owner has had no sense of urgency. I prefer to save my questions for some of the other issues that require their input. I don't even know the mileage, but I'm more concerned about Corrosion than anything else. Sorry getting off topic. I will post more of the saga in a different post. Just trying to order filters and Keep it simple. Scott
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: wolfe10 on May 30, 2020, 09:08:49 am
If the goal is to just get you home, I would bypass that primary filter with a fitting and carry a couple of extra secondary filters and have filter wrench to change it.
Only exception to that is if there is any water in the diesel, as the secondary filter is not a adapt at removing it as the primary.
Actually, Plan A may be to run it like it is, but have the fitting to bypass it with you. Live off the top 1/3 of the tank for better gravity flow/less chance of sucking air.
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: dsd on May 30, 2020, 09:33:06 am
Ordered a six pack of S3230P from Amazon. Can return what I don't use. Next is the dryer assembly
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on May 30, 2020, 10:40:00 am
It is the same one we have on our 2001 U320. Some report problems with air or fuel leaks. I have had mine apart and back together many times without any issues. Don't lose the o rings and use some reasonable care.
I like the clear plastic pre-filter with the screen. It is very obvious it you have algae (black stuff) in there. If your engine starts missing it is not getting enough fuel through the screen. It is easy to disassemble (and after a time or two with practice, not too messy) and the pre-filter can be washed clean in a bucket of soap and water. Rinse well. Pour a bit of alcohol in the filter as a final rinse (gets rid of any water) and reassemble. Run the priming system two or three times. Start the engine, run on high idle for three minutes, you are good to go. Some stuff might get through the pre-filter but so far for me not enough that I have had to change primary and secondary filters on the side of the road. But I carry 2 of each and a spare pre-filter and a complete set of o rings and gaskets.
I did the retrofit kit Racor RK12963 Retrofit Kit (http://beamalarm.com/Documents/racor_rk12963_retrofit_kit.html) soon after we bought the coach almost 10 years ago. It adds a lower assembly for purging water and the S3230P filter.
There are several options for fuel filters beyond this one.
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: dsd on May 30, 2020, 11:38:14 am
Roger so your are in agreement that in the photo that the retro kit has been installed and the 3230P filter is what is shown. Really helpful, thank you Scott
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on May 30, 2020, 01:14:28 pm
This is mine. Last serviced at MOT on 1/9/19 about 8K miles ago. Both will get changed at the next oil change. Prefilter was cleaned by me on 9/20/19. MOT used an equivalent Fleetguard filter. FS19592. Several equivalent cross referenced filters.
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: DayDreamer on May 30, 2020, 05:24:52 pm
Roger, could you please elaborate on how to remove the pre-fillter and the o-rings needed? I have the same setup and have never serviced it. THanks.
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: red tractor on May 30, 2020, 07:48:31 pm
There is a type of thumb screw above the clear filter this allows the top part to be removed and then take out the filter.
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: DayDreamer on May 30, 2020, 08:20:17 pm
Thanks for the info. Are the o-rings required for the pre-filter or are they for the primary? Do I just remove the screen and wash it?
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on May 30, 2020, 10:39:41 pm
The o rings fit on each end of the plastic prefilter. The ends have a cylindrical end about 5/8" diameter. The o rings fit on each end. The screen is inside the plastic filter housing. It does not come out, you just wash the whole thing in soapy water. All of the gunk comes out pretty easily just swishing it around. Once it is clean and rinsed with water and alcohol. The bottom with an o ring on it goes into the fitting at the bottom And the upper fitting with the thumb screw fits over the top. It is a snug fit, some pressure is required to get the o rings to seat and then tighten down the thumb screw. The air purge/fuel prime pumps fuel through the prefilter. Look for leaks. I ran the purge/prime cycle three times. Then start the coach and run on high idle, check for leaks. After three minutes go back to normal idle. If there is still air in the system the engine might stop. Run the purge/prime cycle again once or twice. Mine has always started right up and idled on high with no problems. Go for a short drive or as i did to the next rest stop and check for leaks again just to be sure.
When you see the black gunk in the prefilter it is doing its job. If it gets to half full clean it out. Better to do it in a safe place than on the side of the road.
I am not sure if it comes with 2 o rings or one. I would have to go open up the box with my spare. The parts list says o rings.
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: Seven7 on May 31, 2020, 08:49:53 am
The fittings for the plastic prefilter have an o ring also that may need to be changed. That would be a total of 4 o rings.
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: red tractor on May 31, 2020, 09:24:41 pm
Yes I think that is what causes most of the problems because the orings in the upper and lower metal parts don't get changed because most people don't know they are there.
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: wolfe10 on May 31, 2020, 11:09:11 pm
If someone knows the dimensions of the O rings, that would help others.
Secondarily, if you know what material they are that would also help.
Let me state it a little more emphatically: If I had a coach with this primary fuel filter "system", I would absolutely carry two sets of all O rings and as soon as convenient, likely (less emphatically) replace it.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: dsd on June 01, 2020, 12:25:20 am
Brett, yes this would be very helpful. Part numbers would also make my life less stressful. Scott
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: Seven7 on June 01, 2020, 09:39:13 am
Two different sizes for the top and bottom fittings. One is the 208 Buna but, I don't have the size for the other which is slightly smaller.
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: Billbag on June 01, 2020, 10:49:00 am
Spent 32 yrs, Federal Mogul Corp, Industrial Sales, among my responsibilities, O-rings (National O-Ring) . U need 2 things to Identify, given u have no PN. X section & ID, from the ring itself, a 2— is .139 x section. A 208 would have have a .609 I.D.. Thus if the pictured O ring is the same X section it is probably a 207 .546 I'd or 206. .484 i.d Smaller the #smaller the id.
0— rings have a X section .070 Starting # 004 .070x,070 I'd 1— rings have a X section .103 2— rings have a X section .139 3— rings have a X section . 210 4— rings have a X section .275 All design or nominal, tolerances are pretty loose [for a reason] compared to metal parts.
The 1st digit helps with the X section, the last 2 digits are only sequential, nothing to do with the I.D. Except the bigger the # the bigger I.D.
That probably covers it for us older guys, but then there is the conversion to Metrics, another can of worms so to speak. Cat-Cummins-Detroit-Allison etc started embracing in the 1990s not so much on O rings, but nuts & bolts etc..
Hope this is not redundant, or more than U want to know.
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: evantwheeler on December 03, 2020, 01:06:18 am
Two different sizes for the top and bottom fittings. One is the 208 Buna but, I don't have the size for the other which is slightly smaller.
This is spot on. Troubleshooting a no start issue and found diesel/air slowly leaking from the top of the 300200 pre filter housing after a couple of air purges. The smaller o-ring in the top metal housing was damaged. Now to figure out the size.....
And we have an answer. From a Beaver forum post:
A little follow up....I changed all of my fuel filters today and installed the 300200 new filter screen in the plastic housing. There are a total of 4 Orings involved if you want to renew what was installed to seal the plastic housing ends. The two that come with the new housing are .609 ID by .139CS and are a Part Number 208 (AS568B Aero Space Standard Sizing). These are the larger CS (cross section) O-rings and reside in a recess at the end of the metal castings that face the plastic screen filter housing. About 1/2 inch inside the housing at the top and bottom is a recess in the casting where the .612ID by .103CS Part Number 114 resides.
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: DayDreamer on December 03, 2020, 06:58:16 am
It is easy to miss the o-rings inside the upper and lower housing unless you know they are there. Even if you purchase a new pre-filter, it does not come with the smaller ones needed for the housing.
These are the ones I ordered. The ones on the right (114) go inside the housing. The ones on the left (208) go over the pre-filter.
I ordered from Amazon....but forgot to use the affiliate link :(
208 Buna-N O-Ring, 90A Durometer, Round, Black, 5/8" ID, 7/8" OD, 1/8" Width (Pack of 50): O Ring Seals: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0051XYZ4I/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
114 Buna-N O-Ring, 70A Durometer, Black, 5/8" ID, 13/16" OD, 3/32" Width (Pack of 100): O Ring Seals: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FMYRHK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: dsd on December 03, 2020, 09:17:44 pm
Changing the 114 sized o-ring in the top housing that goes onto the top end of the 300200 plastic pre-filter housing solved my no-start issue.
There is a 114 in the top housing and the bottom housing. If you only changed the top, you might want to put the bottom one on your to do list. Top one is easy since the housing can be removed.
Bottom one required me to squeeze into the compartment so I could see and reach it.....might be a better way, but it was not obvious to me.
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: evantwheeler on December 04, 2020, 06:50:21 pm
There is a 114 in the top housing and the bottom housing. If you only changed the top, you might want to put the bottom one on your to do list. Top one is easy since the housing can be removed.
Bottom one required me to squeeze into the compartment so I could see and reach it.....might be a better way, but it was not obvious to me.
Thanks. I did actually changed all 4, but the top 114 was definitely the culprit as it had someone torn during past service, but the failure delayed a year before causing the no-start issue.
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: Blueeyedme on December 05, 2020, 04:58:40 pm
Curious why you ordered the 114 in 70A and the 208 in 90A. Why not both 70A or 90A?
It is easy to miss the o-rings inside the upper and lower housing unless you know they are there. Even if you purchase a new pre-filter, it does not come with the smaller ones needed for the housing.
These are the ones I ordered. The ones on the right (114) go inside the housing. The ones on the left (208) go over the pre-filter.
I ordered from Amazon....but forgot to use the affiliate link :(
208 Buna-N O-Ring, 90A Durometer, Round, Black, 5/8" ID, 7/8" OD, 1/8" Width (Pack of 50): O Ring Seals: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0051XYZ4I/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
114 Buna-N O-Ring, 70A Durometer, Black, 5/8" ID, 13/16" OD, 3/32" Width (Pack of 100): O Ring Seals: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FMYRHK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: DayDreamer on December 05, 2020, 05:39:56 pm
Curious why you ordered the 114 in 70A and the 208 in 90A. Why not both 70A or 90A?
No reason other than those were the ones readily available. Outside my area of expertise, but guessing the softer 70A is preferred for this application.
Title: Re: Fuel filter assembly identity
Post by: Blueeyedme on December 08, 2020, 07:45:32 am
I had the same problem last month when I overnighted in Why, AZ on the way to Puerto Penasco. No start in the morning. Got on the phone with Red Tractor my goto for all things Foretravel and saw there was no fuel in the pre-filter. Purged it and tried again - still won't start and no fuel in the pre-filter again. I say 'Hey Ron, is this thing supposed to spin like a top'....problem found. Disassembled and their were NO inside o-rings at all! It was a Sunday morning and fortunately the hardware store in Ajo was open. Didn't have anything that fit in inners so I doubled up the outside o-rings which sealed it up and allowed me to continue my trip and get all the way back home. Thanks for the info here and I have now ordered the proper sizes.