1989 Grand Villa. 6V92.
I am on a trip to Michigan from FL and my temp gauge goes from 190 at idle up to 210-215 when driving. I have stopped numerous times to check and dont smell any coolant or see any. The fan is running pretty much all the time. My mechanic said the radiator probably needs to be blown out and to pull over if it gets to 220. It has always stayed below 220 but I feel like I'm rolling the dice. I have 130 miles to go to my destination and Im at a rest area idling between 190-200. I havent heard any knocking and there isnt a ton of heat coming from the motor when I lift the bed.
What do I need to check and what suggestions are out there for the last 130 miles? Going to have someone look at it when I get there.
You have the rear radiator and it's prone for getting dirt/oil in the fins. Not the thing to take a car wash wand to but other rear radiator owners will have suggestions. How about driving at night when it's cooler? I don't let ours run at 220 degrees. 210 would be OK to get home but that is hot for flat road driving. 55 mph?
Pierce
Do you have a temp gun that you can verify the temp as correct?
I keep mine clean using a garden hose.
Since the radiator is in the back, not the side, it picks up a lot of oil and dirt mixture. It sticks to the core and needs something like the Purple Power Degreaser Walmart sells sprayed in with a Dollar Tree pint sprayer. Works best on a warm radiator and then rinse with a garden hose. Might have to do it twice. 2.5 gallons for $11 bucks Purple Power Degreaser Concentrate, 2.5 Gallons - Walmart.com - Walmart.com (https://www.walmart.com/ip/Purple-Power-Degreaser-Concentrate-2-5-Gallons/16778257)
Pierce
Not saying this is your problem but my gauges were reading incorrectly. I invested in an engine computer that will tell you what the computer reads your temps to be. My temps were all over the place but I had no signs of high temps. I drove most of one day trying to keep the temps down below 210 and I was only going 55 on flat ground. I think Roger has a system that he sells on the forum and will do troubleshooting as well. Many on here have it and speak highly of it. It's called VMSpc
Good point about the dash gauge not being accurate. Could be a bad ground, etc. If your temperature changes when you turn on the headlights, it's a sure sign to check with another gauge. Easy to screw one in a cylinder head.
Don't think Roger's system is for a Detroit. The Pro-Link 9000 works for Detroits (and others) plus gives a fast idle, injection testing, etc. It's a tool rather than reading data. In other words, it can change operating parameters but does not have the slick looking display the Silverleaf has. I would love to have both.
Here is the iPad data display for a Detroit: RV Techtools (https://rvtechtools.com/rvdash.html) It's OK but not as nice as the one Roger sells.
Pierce
Agree, that the gauge could be inaccurate.
BUT, yes large BUT, if the gauge reading changes under high load conditions, read that as the engine is operating with thermostat wide open and temp still goes up-- something is wrong.
If the rise over thermostatic control is over 10-12 degrees, you DO have a problem.
Might check your driving habits, if your luging the motor it will over heat , you might make sure your rpms are not running below 1500 in four hear that will raise your temps or running on cruise and letting the tranny shift on its own.
Before I replaced my radiator I had the same trouble.
Brett describes the elephant entering the room. Is this a sudden change in readings or has this slowly been getting worse as the summer temps go up? Your Detroit has two identical thermostats, one on each side of the V-6. IR gun might give a side to side comparison as well as an overall temperature. Shoot the radiator for intake, discharge and different spots across the face.
IR guns are inexpensive, about $20-$25 at HF or mail order.
Pierce
"Don't think Roger's system is for a Detroit." Yes, it does work. I have one. That said, not every possible gauge is available for the Detroit. It also requires a Windows computer, or at least a Windows emulator on a Mac.
I use mine every time we go somewhere. Yesterday, ambient temps were near 100, driving from Limon, CO to Borger, TX. I kept the speed to around 55, +/- depending on how rough the road was. I rarely saw over 200, with low 180's most of the time. The green dot never changed color, so I assume that the computer thought the temps were fine. Highest I saw was 204 at the crest of a long hill.
Since Detroits are known to be heat-sensitive, what should be the max temp?
The first thing I did when I got mine in 2017, was pull the radiator and have the internals cleaned. The place that cleaned it said it was 30% plugged inside. While I was there I changed the thermostats to, with the help of a buddy. It certainly wont hurt to clean the radiator as best you can on the outside. Where I work, we used these detroits allot back in the day. Heat and a bad air filter is about the only thing that hurt em. Mine got up to about 210* once, but I was pulling a 28' trailer on a big grade, on a HOT day. Normally it runs about 190*
Boy if I see it getting anywhere near 190 my pucker factor starts to rise.
Thought 200 was close to system shut down.
Being new at this I could be all wrong.
Thermostats are usually around 185 so 190 is not much higher. On a Detroit or other wet sleeve engines, the computer will go into partial shutdown at about 230-235 degrees with full shutdown about 30 seconds later. Parent bore engines like 5.9 Cummins, some CATs and dry liner 71 series Detroits will tolerate hotter temps.
200° is my limit for our Detroit. Warmer than that, I shift down and or slow down. Yes, I get nervous at 210°.
Pierce
I have personally run a dozen 6v92's up Baker grade to 235 on the dash gauge(which is probably high) without a shutdown.
A few had the warning light come on. Most did not. Ambient well over 100.
Never had a failure. Never downrated a coaches trade in value because of worrying about heating issues damaging an engine.
Done hundreds. My money as a manager.
Just saying
IIRC 92' was first year for ECM on Detroits? If so SilverLeaf won't provide anything. My dash temp gauge consistently reads10º higher than the SilverLeaf even after I replaced the sensor & dash gauge.
So my question would be is this a new problem? Does transmission temp follow engine temp? Does temp go up with outside temp? Are you driving mountains passes?
You should be fine driving the last 130 miles but keep a close eye on the temp gauge. Just drive little slower and see if that helps. At the worst pull over for a couple of hours for the engine to cool then start again.
see ya
ken
Wow...so much awesome feedback!
After some investigation I think the gauge is off. The fan doesnt even come on until it reads 195-200. There was no steam or spillover every time I stopped. Power seemed fine but yes, I ran the cruise control most of the way (1300 miles). It only got to 220 once but consistently ran between 200-210 the whole time that I was paying attention. If I hadn't noticed I probably wouldn't even have been worried. Never overheated or bogged down unless it was driver error...lol. It was my first real trip in her and I'm very proud of how she did considering her driver is a novice...
All Foretravel 2 cycles are DDEC as far as I know. Think '92 was the first year of the computer Allison with the HT746. Didn't know they make SilverLeaf for our Detroits. How do you like yours? Photos?
Pierce
I replaced my temp gauge because. I was getting fluctuating readings and did not trust it.
The new guage is stable and consistent. It still does not read the same temp as the ecm does. Ecm temp on prolink about 20 degrees cooier. But it is consistent with trans temp when not using retarder..
VDO 250f Water Temp Gauge 310-039 | eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/324107521834)
We run the SilverLeaf unit that Bill included in our purchase.
Found the dash gauges are spot on to what SilverLeaf is reporting.
From what I read slipping into the 210 -220 range for short periods is acceptable.
We never have, our unit stays between 185 - 190 consistently.
Now to figure out the fuel temp monitor like David, kb0zke.
Our Pro-Link measures fuel temp and has 48 other functions: MPSI READER MENU SELECTIONS (http://trucktractor6x4.tpub.com/TM-9-2320-363-20-1/css/TM-9-2320-363-20-1_309.htm)
Pierce
As I said, I have the system from Roger and overall it is great. I'm not a Windows fan, and the laptop I'm using is well used, which is part of the problem maybe. At any rate, once I finally get to the VMSpc, so I don't have to mess with the computer, I'm fine. Yes, there are a few things that don't work the way I want them to, but overall I'm satisfied.
What would I change? There is a bar that shows miles left to empty, gallons left to empty, and recent fuel mileage. I can't seem to change that last part, although it has changed itself a couple of times. Once it decided that I was getting 256 mpg, so I had LOTS of miles until empty.
The computer will stay with the coach (unless the buyer doesn't want it), so they can argue with Windows.
Update:
I had to run into the city for an oil change (20 miles) and even on the way there it didnt get above 180. Must have been because I wasnt towing my car?
Yes but after you ran them up to 235 up Baker grade you sold them. Overheated engine problems sometimes won't rear its head right away.. I wouldn't buy a Detroit Cat or Cummins if I knew it had been ran that hot. Someone else likely bought a problem that shows itself later.
Sometimes you get away with it , sometimes you crack a head and it shows right away. Sometimes you weaken piston rings . Roll the dice .
Living in the desert Southwest where most ways out of here were up hills in the heat I hear what you are saying about the 6v92's maybe having long long term issues from being run hotter when new.
Sold a lot of coaches long ago with 6v's and 8v's and my industry buddies report no noticeable issues.
Does not mean it does not happen just they are personally unaware of long term problems.
The bluebird folks website does not show any issues and theirs ran hotter from the weight.
Thanks for the info BTW.
Most miles I have seen on unihomes with 6v's I sold and delivered was around 200k.
The dash gauges were off. Read high on mine. So maybe my temps I mentioned by the dash gauge were actually 10 degrees or more higher than what was really going on?
No silver leaf in those days.
The OP may have had an air bubble in the system or poor ground. Get it running and turn the lights on. If the gauge moves with changed voltage, recable the connections.
IMHO running some one elses bus at 235* seems a little inconsiderate.
If you had had numerous customers leaving hot areas before dawn because of set too low warning systems and pulling over in dangerous turnouts because they were afraid that their motors were going to fail if it's temp gauge moved you might have explored more info as to what the various then available power were actually capable of.
The Gillig rep was a great help as their Phantom chassis was the rapid transit districts in LA's choice for busses as was several customers who owned large garbage truck fleets and several customers who owned truck fleets.
Universally when I mentioned engines running at 220 and trans at 250 or over then grinned widely.
I rode along several times with Haribendians trash truck guys. They all ran around the 220 to 230 range in hot weather.
Now if you tell me that this a problem 25 years later that's interesting.
The Detroit's has a good warranty and I still owned the coaches during the delivery process up Baker grade.
Versus have them terrified about damage and leaving in the middle of the night and pulling over on grades in short turnouts that would be dangerous to merge back in traffic?
We did remote temp sensing with Oshkosh's engineers many times out of my store in the summer with both the Detroit guys present and the Allison guys at times.
Exact scenario up baker with the Detroit guys next to me.
They said we were so light they were not worried about those temps for the time we were actually on the grades.
Notice no warning come on? It was tested to death.
25 years later possible problems is interesting.
Nothing was done without the manufacturers approval. They rode along to see what exactly happened
Remember I planned on taking these back in trade someday. Versus they are damaged?
Countless conversations with worried customers.
"Bob my temp gauge moved. My car doesn't"
I showed them video tapes of the exact same coach going up the grades with the gauges being visible and the Detroit and cat man in the video showing it's ok.
Bob,
The DDEC goes into shutdown at about 230 degrees. Half power for 30 seconds and then it shuts down. I have had it happen so never get anywhere near the 230 mark. The gauge is close to the DDEC specs and the Pro-Link readout.
There is just not enough radiator for hot summer weather and long grades. Any other season, I can charge up out of Death Valley and stay pretty cool.
Naturally, high elevation and hot weather are the worst.
Pierce
Pierce,
The Silverleaf does work on the DDEC but DDEC II only has minimal readouts on the CAN bus. The transmission doesn't talk to the CAN bus so nothing from there.
Off the top of my head here are the monitors I use.
Coolant Temp
Oil Temp
Fuel Temp
Turbo PSI
Load %
Speed
Cruise Set Speed
Tach
Volts
Clock
These make it worth the price. There is a Gallons Per Hour reading that the software uses to calculate MPG (poorly).
I set mine up many years ago and haven't felt the need to go back and play with the new(er) software. I trust the ECM outputs way more than my dash gauges.
Silverleaf only reads from the CAN bus but its advantage is I can see every thing on the screen at the same time. Pro-Link can send commands into the CAN bus to update settings in the ECM. So a lot more functionality there. Draw back is that you have to scroll thru readouts line at a time. I'm still on the look out for a good deal on a Pro-Link & cartridge on ebay.
see ya
ken
If in a dangerous location I remember you can override the shutdown for 30 seconds a time. Three times I think.
Foretravel programmed their own DDECll's engine boxes,
I had Foretravel/Detroit change the production engines power in oct 87 at the unihome introduction in because the originals were 277/840. Customers Complained that there buddies were ribbing them that they had 300hp.
The Allison guy and the Detroit guy and I were in the back of the room and they pulled out their pocket guides and said we can make it 300/820,
Allison guy liked it because the ATEC 648 was nominally rated at 780. So they approved the over spec use because of the light weight of the coach.
I thought the shutdown was 250? Warning at 235? Derate after 30 seconds?
I helped set this stuff up 32 years ago but a lot of things have happened in between.
JamesT knows. He worked with me among others to get this right.
He was at that same intro. I told him I talked them into the 300/820 even though it's slower.
Mr Fore asked me why? I told him it was killing my sales with a 277 rating. He laughed. He said he was never a good salesman and to go ahead
Ray Davis with his CanPod bluetooth module works on Prevosts, Eagles, Wanderlodges, etc and with an iPad. The problem is that the bluetooth module is about $600 compared to $10 for a Ford or Toyota module that does the same thing. Web site: RV Techtools (https://rvtechtools.com/index.html)
The Pro-Link 9000 reader can be available for less than $100, sometimes way less. It's the cartridge that costs. Again, the Ford, etc cartridges are usually just thrown in for free.
The Pro-Link will read our Alilson HT- 746 but with a different cartridge and a different plug. See top right of A3376 https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=media;sa=album;in=194 I don't have the Allison schematic.
Yes, the ECM outputs a huge amount of information that never makes it to the dash but it takes the Mother Detroit to add horsepower.
Bob, yes, three times but that is usually enough to fry the engine. Too much torque for the lighter duty earlier transmission and probably heat for the rear radiator too. That ruled the earlier 6 speeds out until the world Allison came out. Then the Detroit would not smog.
Ours shuts down at 230°
You have a deluxe toad. Nice.
Pierce
So irritating to find from the Allison man and a 87 FMCA show that the 3060 was done. They had a 4060 also on displayI asked when we would see it and was told that the Allison line in Indianapolis had just been retooled for $500 million and that as they had no competition basically that it would be 4 years or more. Gag.
My drives up baker grade in the summer had the temp gauge stop rising before any warnings or derating occurred.
As the gauge was probably too high I was under the warning limits.
The exact delivery in 30 degree lower ambient temps had the dash gauge almost exactly the same 30 degrees lower.
I doubt any owners ever pushed their coaches that hard ever. But they knew it was capable of it.
Gilling reset their beaver warning system to more reasonable numbers after I explained they were terrifying the owners as theirs came on at maybe 200 degrees.
Enoch and I reset their Monaco settings also. Enoch Hutchcraft was their engineering vp and a old street racing friend of mine.
The northwest Cummins distributor turned their engines power up for Monaco before shipping them to Oregon. No fair.
I was an extreme user. Ski at minus 30 in a ORED. Desert/river at 115.
So the manufacturers came to my stores after I asked a lot of questions and telemetered coaches for testing. Then adjusted their settings to match actual results. Was great fun. Customers got better setups.
Maybe a few dared to have the temp gauge move but not many.
Only ways to sell Foretravels was to tout the abilities. Power to weight. Rugged. And the club. New friends.
I had 10 foot long frame engineering drawing printouts from Oshkosh. Spread them out on the desks.
Product sell. Not the pretty. Then the GV came around. We laughed as it would sell. And it did