Our faithful 1997 has decided that it is its turn to get a newly rebuilt steering gear.
Small leak appears to be on the top below the steering column universal joint. And the time has come for a rebuilt Redhead unit.
We are in San Diego and our big job is to locate a trusty shop to for the removal and install.
Understand we all have Shepard M100 units, some with manual limits and some with automatic limits.
Is there other model specification details that we need to know?
Where is the best way to find identifying information on our units?
Our OEM box has manual limits, but we now would like automatic adjustment.
Can a manual box be converted to automatic?
Does anyone have an automatic core that we could send to Redhead?
Does anyone have one of those special Pitman-Arm removal wrenches to borrow?
Who is the name of the contact at Redhead that knows about our Foretravels and our Steering box?
Our 8kw generator does not have any components in the small front bay, making access a little easier.
What has to be removed for a shop to have access to do the R&R?
Thank you,
Barry & Cindy
usually a "PDP1" version
Thanks Tim & Ted,
Another question for those who have come before. . .
In the attached photo , does our end of the pitman arm have a nut like others? I don't see a familiar looking nut.
Does this pitman arm nut need a special wrench to remove it?
Is a special puller needed to pull the pitman arm off the selector shaft?
It is a bolt and takes a 5/8" allen wrench. Someone may reply with one of David's pullers that you can borrow.
Here are some out of focus pictures to give you some idea of what is involved.
Steering box info (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=38758.msg378679#msg378679)
My notes from when I did it;
Don
Sorry. I haven't had my coffee yet, but.
PDP-1 version?
Shepard M100 steering gearbox
Gen-Pro
I have one of the Pittman arm tools if someone needs it
Keith
Before I replaced my steering box, I got a rebuilt unit from Sheppard. This was a mistake as almost no shop wanted to work on it because they could not make some $$$ on the part, and the price of the rebuilt box from Sheppard was high. I think the redhead rebuild is the way to go though. The box is very heavy, not easy to remove and replace.
I have 2 more sitting behind my desk.. if needed
The diesel shop that repaired mine took it to the shop and picked it up( chalks in Houston 10 miles from the shop) I paid the chalks direct for the rebuild and the shop for the labor only.. Chalks rebuild was $595.00...
Hope whoever bought my old coach is enjoying the rebuild..
Keith
Thanks for the help to get us focused on our steering gear swap.
Based on this info, what is the difference between these two models?
"Sheppard M100PGW1 is a direct swap out with the M100PDP1 that was special made for FT"
Is there any disadvantage to the automatic limiter model? Seems like the automatic would be preferred if available.
Are there model number designations for the manual vs automatic limit models?
Anyone have a spare that we could send to Redhead for rebuild?
Thanks,
Barry
Barry,
From previous post, I believe they DO have a spare-- no idea if manual or auto. BTW, manual limit is EASY to set-- just requires a small screwdriver and is an external adjustment.
We will be locating a truck shop to do our steering gear swap. . .
Why is it better to 'pull' steering column when changing steering gear?
What does it take to pull it up? Are there splines that slip apart?
And what issues are there if we do not pull out steering column?
How is the steering gear detached from steering column? Is it below the universal joint?
The utube video I shared with you shows how and why.
The shaft connects steering wheel to gear box. Your not pulling it out of coach. You are actually just raising it up to clear output shaft.
If not pulled up. You would have to attempt to connect gears and shaft with the gearbox being held up almost in position.
Not a repair anyone should want to try.
Barry,
Just an FYI........... the shop in Tillamook OR. that changed ours did not ever step foot inside the coach. They did the swap with two tech's under the coach so they must have removed the bolt from the steering column and dropped the box down off the splined shaft.
I watched from the side of the coach but couldn't see much because of the location of the box. Maybe our grandvilla is quite diffenent than your coach in the amount of access around the Sheppard box. Don't know..........
Good luck with the swap out!
Mark,
Thanks for the YouTube video that shows how to remove the steering gear. Video answers my question about the steering column splines.
https://youtu.be/k1S-SA5ucMI
Ordered our Red Head steering gear and learned the sector shaft stick out 2 3/4".
Our front bay metal that is spaced out from steering gear is about 2", so we may trim away another inch or as close to the air brake switch as we can cut.
Does anyone know about problems with not enough space needed for the gear sector shaft to clear the mounting plate. The YouTube video mentions the need for more space.
I had no problem clearing that panel. I emptied the generator radiator compartment and slid it out that door.
Steering box info (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=38758.msg378679#msg378679)
I had to trim approx 1" of the sheet metal panel for the side plate with bolts to allow the sector shaft to clear the frame.
Had ours replaced by FOT last fall, and they also never set foot in the coach. Definitely is a two-man job...two guys with a lot of grunt. Alton said we got the last box that they had.
How much oil needs to be added to the hydraulic tank after the swap?
If it is a lot of oil, did you remove the tank cover to pour in?
BTW, a Forum member lent me his pitman arm remover tool, but it did not fit over our pitman arm.
Throat in the tool is 3" and the width of our pitman arm at the center line of the hex bolt is 4", so a tool mod is needed. Anyone one find this conflict?
Thanks, coach goes into shop for the heavy lifting in a few days.
Are you measuring the arm after the bolt is removed? The depth is supposed to be 2"
PM me if you need assistance on using the puller.
Photos of pitman arm puller tool size conflict
That has the wrong measurements. The throat should be 3 3/4" and the slot 2 1/2"
Steering gear sector shaft sticks out 2-3/4" from the body.
Without pitman arm the gear must be moved sideways over 2-3/4". Our front compartment sheet metal wall was 2" from the gear, so some metal must be removed to allow easier removal.
Using our Dremel and a single standard metal cut-off blade at fast speed, we easily made a cut up to the brake light switch to remove over one inch of metal. For the last top 2" next to the brake light switch where the Dremel could not fit, we bent back the top 2 inches.
So now we have over 3 inches of space between the gear and sheet metal compartment edge.
Rebuilt Sheppard Red Head is installed, attached are steps we used to install steering gear. . .
Major categories in attached document are:
CHECK / SET AXLE STOPS
PULLING STEERING COLUMN UP
REMOVE PITMAN ARM
IF USING STEEL PULLER THAT SLIPS OVER PITMAN
REATTACH STEERING COLUMN
PURGE
REINSTALL PITMAN ARM
MANUAL PLUNGER LIMITS
ALTERNATE BLEED PROCEDURE (usually not needed)
Nice write up
With our Red Head steering gear installed, would like to share our experience. . .
1 – GETTING STARTED
July 1st after moving into our San Diego campsite, we noticed oil puddle under steering gear. Cindy said "Looks like we're about to have an Adventure". With COVID, we were staying put, so took our time researching what to do.
Hydraulic oil leak was at steering column input shaft seal. With engine running, it leaked oil. Checked with ForeForums Friends, read a lot, and decided on a plan.
Our steering gear is Sheppard M100 PDP1 with manual relief valves. Rebuilder alternatives included Red Head (WA) and Straight Line Steering (CA). We chose Red Head. Knowledgeable, experienced, answered our many questions.
Maybe this was an opportunity to change to a PGW1 with automatic relief valves? Daniel Foster at Red Head said he had never seen a Foretravel with other than PDP1. Don't know if they had any PGW1, but had 3 rebuilt PDP1. Better to send our PDP1 for rebuild (known history) but waiting 1-2 weeks was not an option for our situation.
Ordered PDP1. Red Head shipped immediately. 83 lbs. Arrived UPS Ground in 3 days. Delivered to our campsite.
Red Head Steering Gears
4302 B st NW, Auburn WA 98001
206-364-3333, x100 (Daniel Foster)
info@redheadsteeringgears.com
$ 796 Sheppard M100 PDP1
500 refundable core
90 UPS ground shipping to us
90 UPS ground return shipping
0 no tax, shipping out of state
$1,476 total billed
$ 976 cost after core credit
2 - PREPARATIONS
Access to the steering gear was somewhat available from our front storage compartment. Our 8Kw Isuzu generator (1997 U270) has side-mounted belt-driven fan and radiator. Removed insulation we put in the compartment to keep generator radiator heat out.
Red Head told me sector shaft sticks out 2-3/4" so the heavy gear would have to be moved to street-side far enough to clear the sector shaft out of the mounting plate hole.
The compartment had only 2" space between edge of sheet metal and the steering gear. So cut off 1+" of sheet metal on the forward side-to-side panel with a Dremel. (Tip from ForeForums)
Removed rubber/steel frame panel underneath generator compartment. Rolled out generator. Now have access behind generator to the Pitman Arm, retaining bolts, and sector shaft end. Had already sprayed PB Blaster Penetrant on retaining bolts.
Had always used Delo 15w40 HD diesel engine oil in hydraulic tank, but was not available, so switched to Costco's new Kirkland 15w40 HD oil. Bought 3 cases (9 gallons). Didn't know how badly would leak on 20+ mile drive to repair shop.
Got out wrenches for sliding out generator, removing 4 dash steering column bolts & removing hydraulic tank top.
Hydraulic Tank: Removed clamp holding down the top, left cover tightly in place, wire brushed all the rust dust that always accumulates under clamp. Then used Loctite Extend Rust Neutralizer over rust and inside steel clamp. We carry spare hydraulic tank Fleetguard 87610A filters & 99955A rubber gasket, but decided not to change triple-filters or gasket at this time.
Borrowed a heavy steel pitman arm puller that slips over pitman arm and has a center hole in the thick front metal plate.
Repair Shop: Can't do coach maintenance in our campground and handling 83 lb steering gear is way above our pay grade. Were fortunate to find a highly recommended, old-style family-owned heavy-work truck/auto shop about 20 miles away (Wheel & Axle in El Cajon CA). Been in business 30+ years with several mechanics with them 25+ years. No problem to stay in coach during repairs and overnight if needed in their locked yard with electricity and satellite TV. We were parked outside, beside their building. No problem giving our thoughts/ideas, explaining, and hanging around.
Shop was unfamiliar with our coach and its limited access for R&R so I wrote up procedure steps, which were helpful.
Not sure we could drive motorhome 20+ miles from our Mission Bay campground to El Cajon without losing lots of oil, we drove the route in our Jeep to find 4 safe pull-offs for our motorhome where we could check the oil level. Turns out almost no oil was lost during our drive, though we did leave a puddle at the shop when we arrived. Only used about 2 gallons of oil after leaking, hose removals & purging.
3 - PITMAN ARM REMOVAL
With coach air bags at highest all-raise position & generator pulled out, shop mechanic slid under front of coach. He easily removed pitman center bolt with 5/8" Allen socket on battery-impact wrench.
Our style of gear puller tool uses pitman arm center bolt to pull back on puller, which puts pressure on the backside of pitman arm. So center bolt was re-installed in preparation for being used with puller.
In our case, it seems the puller we used may have been too big in its internal front to back dimension. Looks like it had too much air space between flat sides of pitman arm and inside of puller tool.
About half the length of the center bolt threads were out in air space before the inside of the puller contacted the back flat surface of the pitman arm. So only about half the remaining bolt threads were left to do the heavy pull, were not up to the task, and just stripped out from the force of the impact gun, without budging pitman arm.
No sure where to find a new center bolt, our first call went to Red Head, who had two choices based on torque rating stamped on our damaged bolt, which is 350 ft lbs. Bolt was $45, UPS overnight $43. New bolt comes with a new locking ring attached. BTW, Red Head calls the center bolt a 'nut'.
For 24 years, pitman arm was tightly splined to sector shaft and it was not easy to get them to divorce each other. After several different approaches, the one that worked used brute force. A long heavy solid steel rod was inserted into bay and held against the backside of pitman arm. Another strong mechanic hit the end of the steel bar with a sledgehammer. Nothing I would recommend, but it worked without any visible damage to pitman arm.
Know lots of Foretravelers used a similar style tool to pull pitman, but from what I experienced, using the center bolt's fine threads to do the heavy push is asking a lot and if it does get the pitman off, bolt threads could be stressed. I would recommend buying a new center bolt with every Red Head rebuild.
It is possible that even with a correct tight-fitting tool, a pitman arm very stuck on the sector shaft, with a strong impact wrench, all the center bolt threads could still strip out. They initially used a battery-operated impact, so it was not too strong and our threads stripped. I would now recommend the puller style with its own center bolt, to be used without the pitman center bolt. It seems to me that with a very strong impact wrench, something has to eventually give-out, and if pitman spline does not move, bolt threads could give out.
4 - REMOVE & INSTALL STEERING GEAR
After Pitman Arm was removed, next step to unbolt the old heavy steering gear, remove it, and install the new.
First, removed bolt holding steering column universal joint to steering gear input shaft.
Cindy & I had previously removed 2 of the 4 bolts holding steering column to dash. Now was time to remove the last 2 bolts. Bolts are hardened with locking nut, making the removal slow and harder. We later put the bolts back with new grade-8 thick flat washers.
Earlier, cut off several cable ties around steering column floor rubber boot and wires near dash, to free up steering column.
With dash bolts removed, pulled steering wheel & column out of steering gear, and supported this raised position with box on seat under steering wheel, being aware to not stress 12-volt wires.
Removed hydraulic hoses & all bracket bolts. Mechanics strong-armed the sector shaft out of the mounting plate, rotated gear and lifted it out through the compartment door.
Reverse everything to install new gear. It took two strong mechanics working together to put gear in place and then Cindy & me to lower steering column and hold in place while they put the universal back on and bolted in place.
Pitman Arm is NOT yet installed at this step.
While waiting for overnight shipment of new center bolt, we had time to purge, fill hydraulic tank, and purge some more.
With mechanics working on other vehicles, Cindy rotated steering wheel with engine off, continuously about 20 times, gently lock to lock, to start the purging of air in lines and gear.
Next, with engine running to pump hydraulic fluid through steering gear, Cindy turned steering wheel again continuously about 20 times, gently lock to lock, only this time, not hold steering wheel at either full left or full right. A lot of air bubbles showed up in hydraulic tank, and fluid level went down about quart or so.
------------------------------------
5 - REPLACE PITMAN ARM
Engine off, without Pitman Arm installed, count # of steering wheel rotations from full left to right, divide in half to find approximate center position of steering gear.
Mechanic installed Pitman Arm with slight rotations of input shaft to line up splines. Put in new center bolt that came with a new locking ring, and torque to 350 ft lbs.
After, check that axle stops were ok, mechanics adjusted left & right relief plunger limits with a small screw driver turning top and bottom screws.
New gear came with plastic plugs in hydraulic fitting holes that need to be put into old gear to keep oil from leaking out while in return package. We had mechanics put old dirty gear in our two large heavy leaf bags, sealed them and put them back in the same shipping carton packed with absorbant paper towels, in case of leak.
UPS Store clerk carried the return carton from our Jeep into the store, and with pre-paid shipping label, sent core back to Red Head.
Driving back to our campground coach steering was tight and bit smoother without any play in steering wheel. Didn't have noticeable play before the leak.
We will be back to normal after we clean up, install generator bottom, and put things back in the front compartment.
Frame & Axle labor cost $945, with Red Head, project total cost is about $2,000.
What an "Adventure"!
Hi Mark,
We posted our steering gear experience in our existing tech forum thread.
Thanks for all your help. Nice to have this behind us.
Thanks,
Barry & Cindy
Foretraveler@gmail.com
Great write up B&C!
Hi Don,
We posted our steering gear experience in our existing tech forum thread.
Thanks for all your help. Nice to have this behind us.
Thanks,
Barry & Cindy
Hi Justin,
We posted our steering gear experience in our existing tech forum thread.
Thanks for all your help. Nice to have this behind us.
Thanks,
Barry & Cindy
Thanks Richard & Keiko, nice to have this job done. No fun being in a situation where we cannot travel.
Hi Tim,
We posted our steering gear experience in our existing tech forum thread.
Thanks for all your help. Nice to have this behind us.
Thanks,
Barry & Cindy