I just sold my 1976 FMC 2900r (that I repowered to a Duramax/6spd Allison) and I'm doing the legwork on what I'd like to be my next coach. I'm very interested in the 1989 (double bumper) 36ft (that's max length for me) Grand Villa's. I'd like some input on what to watch out for, what options to look for, and what are the "must haves". I'll only be looking at Western/Southern coaches, I live in San Diego and won't deal with a snow belt coach. I'd also be interested in if anyone has done a modern repower to this era Grand Villa and what donor they went with.
Thanks
Len
Double bumper coach you're going to be dealing with a 3208 Cat or a 2-stroke Detroit (40') and a 4 speed Allison.
For a little more of an investment you get a more modern drivetrain...
Beautiful 1994 Foretravel U280 Unihome 36ft diesel pusher the Rolls... (https://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/rvs/d/kent-beautiful-1994-foretravel-u280/7153454781.html)
Well I have a 1990 Double Bumper 40 ft. and it is a hybrid of 1990 and 1991 features. 6V92 Detroit 4 spd Allison with retarder. You are looking for a very rare bird. I have only personally seen 1 other on the road and it was at Quartzite last January. Less than a handful here on the Forum. Don't box yourself in. ALL the GrandVilla series coaches are great rigs. Depending on the previous owner, you may be spending some bucks on infrastructure upgrades. The running gear is the key component for your search. And of course rust , rust, rust. The silent killer of great coaches. Be sure to read the article by Brett Wolfe titled Bulkhead Replacement here on this site. This is stuff you need to know before you start your search for your vintage rig.
If you find something out there, run it by us. Take lots of pictures, we like pictures and directions on how to post pictures are here on the site. You have found the right place to look for advice and help. I simply can not state how much I have learned and how much help is on here. Learn to use the search function in the upper right hand corner.
Don't get discouraged if you don't find one tomorrow. If there is a Foretravel for sale no matter what the year and what the style anywhere near you, do yourself a favor and go check it out. You never know, love at first sight.
Good luck, hope to hear from you soon
The Diesel powertrains for the 87-90 GV are plenty stout. The weakest statistically will be the gassers, either front or rear mounted. The Fuel pincher DD will be a close second. IMHO.
The Cat 3208 and the 6 V92 have been really solid. Very few rebuilds mentioned on any forums. I have not heard of any power swaps.
The Fortravel 8 bag chassis is really nice and should drive better than the Oshkosh 4 bag system . The Oshkosh is very rust resistant. The 8 bag chassis is prone to rust .
But Mercedes/Detroit is still making the 6V-92TA 2-stroke. Wonder why that is?
Pierce
For those mechanically inclined and asking for a project a good one would be a early U280 unihome 250 cat.
Locate a marine 375hp twin turbo 3208 marine top end. Bolt it on. May need more fuel. No ideas of the details.
Keep your foot out of it until in fourth gear. Torque converter locked up.
Large enough radiator. Drove one. Climb all the 6% interstate grades at warp speed.
Has enough chassis and disk brakes
Does anyone on here know/seen this coach up close? 8.3 Cummins and 3000 series Allison is a great powertrain..
Also, is there a good resource for comparing model differences...in particular...for say 1994, what are the differences between a U300 and a U240 (beyond the obvious) is the chassis/brake system dramatically different? It appears they held the narrower chassis width on the U240 through 1994, that is something that I like, I find myself in tight spots a lot and prefer the older "narrow track" coaches.
Thanks again.
I've readjusted my target years to 1993-1995...if I feel ambitious enough I can always retrofit the double bumper look on to one of those a lot easier than re-powering..
I would be willing to put our "snow belt" state coach up against any coach of similar age and mileage anytime when it comes to being rust free.
Our coach, to the best of my knowledge, only saw one--ONE--17 mile drive on a Wisconsin winter road, and I hosed it down when we got home.
Rust? Better look at the frame, the engine, and even the interior when looking at coaches. You can still read the labels on our engine and the wood interior shows no sign of neglect or weathering.
While at HWH and having a new hydraulic pump installed Lon the leadman insisted that his guys roll under our coach and look at the chassis. He told them it looked like it just came out new from the Foretravel factory.
I will admit, that being from Wisconsin, RUST is our favorite color!! :)) :)) >:D
Any state or country that salts the roads gets their vehicle pulled aside by Homeland Security when they go to sell it. Nitehawk, you are one of a low percentage of RV owners who does right by their coach. Good for you. If I were in the market, I would have to get a lot of high resolution photos before I would think about flying to inspect the typical Craigslist coach from a northern state.
Pierce
The metal fab portion is (for me) the easiest.
I'm looking at an 88 GV U280, indoor kept, seemingly well maintained, under 50k miles. This is the 3208T/MT643 combo drivetrain. I know to inspect for bulkhead issues, is there any other model specific issues to watch for on these? I'll be inspecting windshield glass fitment and general systems functional/leak checks. The owner has good maintenance records.
Looks nice from the single photo. Glass fitment is always a potential problem. Ours moves a lot but never has cracked (fingers crossed) Where do you live and plan to use it? Not a northern coach is it? More high res photos would help members do a long range inspection.
Pierce
It's a southern coach, verified indoor storage for the past 20yrs, I'm in SoCal so no environmental concerns on my end either.
mechanicals, newly re-cored radiator last year, needs tires (aged out) needs voltage regulator on the onan 6.5lp genset (only stays running in "start" position. Windshield weatherstripping leaks small amount. Owner reports small gear whine noise in 4th gear before the converter locks, allison tech told him it's pretty typical and not a problem but I haven't dug into that, I do know that some allisons are know for that type of gear noise. Batteries are recent, all appliances working well, about half interior lights converted to LED. Engine driven dash A/C performance poor.
Are you "handy" and do you like to fix stuff? Check roof carefully, as well as any othe signs of delamination elsewhere
should have some rooftop pics tonight along with the genset...yes...I've built multiple project vehicles and recently repowered a 76 FMC motorhome from the stock 440 mopar gas V8/727 trans to an LBZ Duramax with 6spd Allison...If I buy one of these GVs it will likely end up with an ISL 400hp Cummins and 3060 Allison (couple years down the line).
Len,
Don't think you will be disappointed in the performance of the Cat 3208.
Look forward to welcoming you to the Foretravel family.
Is the dry/curb weight for these listed anywhere? I haven't been able to track that down...some anecdotal stuff that suggest 20-22klbs is all I've seen.
roof looks to be pretty tidy
Looks pretty cherry.
it's the cleanest one of that vintage I've found(for sale) so far..
The 3208T should be a good engine. Lots of cubes so reasonable engine braking on downgrades. Dash AC is worthless in my opinion. We just run the roof AC if needed while driving. This one looks really nice. Should be able to get 10 mpg if you don't go too fast and not too many hills.
Pierce
I haven't seen any post on brake system issues with these coaches, is there anything to look out for there beyond normal servicing? Any systemic/design issues? Same question for steering?
I have read about several coach owerners who use and enjoy the dash air. Hope their right after replacing a few parts recently in anticipation of firing it up.
I am not alone in having good dash air. It isn't rocket science but needs someone with auto truck A/C experience.
My dash air works perfectly....'93 GV
These are the only weight listings I am aware of. Take a test drive and run it over a truck scales for a ballpark figure.
Foretravel Vehicle Weight (http://web.archive.org/web/20200111051940/http://beamalarm.com/Documents/foretravel_vehicle_weight.html)
1988 Foretravel Grand Villa U280 Specifications (http://web.archive.org/web/20190923181908/http://www.beamalarm.com/foretravel-links/models/1988_foretravel_u280_specifications.html)
I have to laugh at the comment 'snow belt coach' and it's connotations. Our coach came from San Diego and of course we live in the Okanagan Valley of BC Canada so I guess this qualifies us as snow belt. The odd thing is that in the almost 12 yrs we have had it the only snow it has seen was an overnight snow storm that left 14 " on top of it while heading down south for our usual winter jaunt. Now the snow came down while we were in Northern California just about in Hornbrook while on I 5.
So does this qualify as a snow belt coach now even though it has not seen any while driving north of the Border?
It was also gone within 24 hrs.
I believe that most Bulkhead / Rust issues are more inclined to be the result of carelessness with water tank levels and bad house keeping-of bay floors From spills etc.
JohnH
My RV.org rating book only has the 1990 year but I think they are very similar:
36 ft U280 SBID floorplan, Cat engine:
28,000 GVW
Ave. curb: 23331 lbs.
Net payload: 4669 lbs.
My 88 is Oshkosh. Not sure if the brakes are the same . Decent but not super.
Wedge rear, cam front.
My nose weight is sub 8500.
I have modernized many systems. Air dryer, Fuel filters, Fridge,Interior lights to led, Tile floor,.
The engine and trans have been sweet. Little shutter at 4th gear lockup. Slight gear whine at 68MPH, so I drive about 63. Gets 10 ish mpg.
The water tank is prone to fall out of the fiberglass floor. I built a frame to mount it directly on the frame rails.
I also rebuilt the cap seams with structural glue and rivits instead of the sorry screws. Plus many other corrections.
You live the the maritime climate where everything is good and everyone has salmon for dinner. Did you ever watch the movie Fargo? Not that I would stuff anyone in a wood chipper. 8) I remember going across the Northern States in winter where at Yellowstone, the rare to be seen Rocky Mountain goats were blocking the road licking up the salt. Further east, the parking lots were full of cars with rotted rocker panels and the bottom of doors with huge rust areas. In a Foretravel, the sure tip off besides the bulkhead is the bottom of the side radiator usually at the front. If it has rot, it's a sure sign it's seen snow.
Pierce
Not that I would mind having the dash AC but it's 100 degrees here every day and there are no flat roads in our parts of the Sierras. Our cooling system is marginal in summer and I don't want to load it any more with the compressor. Going to pull the condenser out of the nose so I can put a radiator up there with the heater hose for a supply.
Runs nice and cool in 3 seasons but we don't need AC then.
Pierce
I liked the coach, I offered 20k a year ago, J.D didn't want to budge much, needed tires, then the radiator had to be replaced. Then I lost interest with the 250 hp CAT and propane generator. I do believe this one is the one in Tallahassee, Fl. It is right for someone, and the exterior condition looks great. Could make a great coach if a few things were changed.
I drove a 250 car/643 Allison that the Texan had a marine shop in Galveston bolt on a marine twin turbo top end on the stock bottom end. Only drove it hard when in fourth locked up.
Impressive
We keep finding potential owners excited about old coaches with very low mileage. This coach was only driven 1600 miles a year. Or was it? Since you have the maintenance records you should have the answer. Was it used regularly? Lubricants replaced on schedule? Old tires make me wonder. If the records show that it was stored for many years then be careful.
I know for sure it has not been used(just started and locally exercised) regularly. Owner states it has been 3-ish years since his last trip. I would be a lot happier if it had more miles and more recent usage...the best thing for a coach is to be used. John Hobbs is correct this is JC's coach in Tallahassee, generator is still an issue and likely would require replacement; when you don't use them for exceptionally long periods then use them hard once (on dirty brushes and slip rings) you tend to damage the stator. I would probably just convert to a modern Cummins/onan unit...they are a lot quieter/more efficient. Tires are still the same...and I agree...the biggest problem (for me) is the 250 cat and 643 trans...if it was a 300 cat/647 trans I'd be a lot more aggressive in pursuing it. Adding the Charge air Cooler and turning up the fuel isn't a huge obstacle, the strength difference between the 643 and the 647 is...so...I'd have to be willing to baby it until I was ready to do the ISL repower.. The main attraction of this coach is the preservation of being indoor kept for the past 20yrs and the fact that it is the narrow track (which I prefer)...I'm also still actively looking at other coaches.
The 250 Cat with the fuel up one notch and the revlimit up to 2600 , along with muffler delete, is plenty fast. I turned my fuel back down.
Just noticed a low time rebuilt 3208T on Sacramento FB Marketplace for $1000 OBO. Photo is of a 3208. https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/2066212456847947
Pierce
JC and I agreed on a deal for the coach (88 GV U280) above. I won't pick it up until late Sept/early October but will be working to learn as much as possible between now and then.
Part of the deal on this coach was for the owner to take it out on a 200mile roadtest and report back/deal with any mechanically limiting issues. He completed that Sunday and sent me a shot of the gauges at hwy speed mid trip. Voltage appears a good 1vdc lower than it should be, trans temp is very concerning, he lives in the flats of north florida and the rig is unloaded; it should (to my thinking) be tracking right with the engine coolant temp, 240dg is pulling a load up a grade on a hot day-hot...hot! He had the radiator recored last year (engine coolant temp confirms that is working well) but I'm concerned they may have boogered up the trans cooler and somehow clogged it...this is the first extended drive he had since that work. Otherwise he reported it drove perfectly, shifts were consistent and appropriately firm no other problems at all. Any other thoughts on this?
Volts: Yes, somewhat low. Looking for a little over 14 volts at that RPM. If he had the headlights on (especially the high beams) then the voltage at 13 could be OK.
Trans temp: Yes - way high. On our coach (different transmission) the trans temp, even when really working hard, never exceeds engine temp. (We do not have a retarder) Might just be a bad gauge, but certainly needs to be addressed. Would have been informative to smell the tranny fluid immediately after engine shutdown. If it smelled like "burned toast" - not a good sign.
Hours vs miles = 29 mph avg...idle time? Oil pressure seems high for engine temp.
Yes, Oil pressure does seem high.
I had thought that too...but...after some searching found a lot of 3208 owners who report 80-90psi.
Hrs to miles is about what I had expected, the owner has been real clear that this rig has been stored inside and just run around the block occasionally for the past many years.
That's the same pressure that my '85 crane with a 3208 has at operating temp. Pegs the gauge cold.
Not sure on your year but if you don't have transmission lockup, the transmission temp will go up on grades. I notice a big difference on ours in town where we are in first and second sightseeing. About 190 degrees on the highway but after a half hour in San Francisco, over 200 degrees.
Don't take the dash readings for voltage or temp as fact. Use a voltmeter at the dash lighter plug and also at the batteries.
Pierce
Quick armchair research agrees with OP and Chuck: 80 psi at 2000 RPM does not seem to be unusual on the Cat 3208:
Cat 3208...high oil pressure 80-90psi | Heavy Equipment Forums (https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/threads/cat-3208-high-oil-pressure-80-90psi.31171/)
Yep, I'm going to have him put a meter on the batteries to see what the real deal is on voltage. The MT643 locks in 3rd and 4th, he was open roading it in the flats so there's no real reason he should be more than 5-10dgs off engine temp...he reported he could clearly feel the converter locking in both upper gears. I'm betting when the radiator recore/refurb got done some thing clogged/plugged/restricted the cooler circuit.
My trans temp sets on 160 intil I hit traffic and down gear into a town or up hill, unlocked . Once locked in 3rd or 4th it drops back down near the peg .
My oil pressure is solid 65 at cruise
Maybe those 2 gauges share a ground?
The speed reads a touch high at 2000. 2300 is 64 true for me.
My speedo read high until it quit.
The current gps speedo reads well , about 2 less.
I agree...Trans temp should be setting 160-180dg...the idea on the meter grounds is good, I'll ask him to check that.
Not sure what the rear gear ratio is so I don't have any way of knowing how close the 2000rpm/65mph is to being "right". But, with 40" tires that would put it around a 3.73 if its correct.
Crawl under and look at the tin tag on the third member for the ratio.
Pierce
owner got back with me, he use an IR thermometer and was getting 140dgs when the trans temp gauge was reading 200dgs. He's going to investigate the meter grounds and see if that is the culprit.
Finally got around to this...it has a 3.91 ratio
You want to make sure he shot next to where the temp sending unit screws in. Probably in the neighborhood of the thermostat(s).
Pierce
I've already replaced the sending unit, it fixed the problem...temp now matches (within about 5dgs) of what my IR gun says...typically runs about 145dgs..