After earlier repairs on my King Cruise Control it has finally given up the ghost (PO converted to air throttle and used the King Cruise unit). In attempting to contact Steve at King Cruise, I've learned they are out of business. He is advertising some parts and things but no more rebuilds, no more system sales. Nobody answers the phone or returns calls. What a shame. Two years ago he was so helpful in solving my problem at the time.
I have the mechanical Cummins 8.3 with the Allison 3060R for info. Anyone have some advice as to where I should start research to install a new cruise & high idle control?
Let me do a little research, have a good spare King control and cable but reluctant to part with it.
Alan,
Have you looked around online? I just Googled "aftermarket cruise control for trucks" and the first hit was Cruise King. No help. The second hit is Rostra. I know nothing about this company, but a quick scan of the web ad makes it sound promising. You might check it out.
Rostra 250-1223 Universal Cruise Control System (http://www.rostra.com/universal-aftermarket-cruise-control-by-rostra.php)
Any chance any of our electrical gurus can buy out Steve and repair the controls????
I saw that Rostra came up in the archives in relation to replacing the control stick. I was hoping that someone had already solved this problem (with King recently closing probably not). I would love a plug and play! 👀
Try taking the unit apart and looking for an obvious problem, broken wire etc, you got nothing to lose.
I got a control stick from Rosetta. I knew we were in deep dung when Steve closed in Faribault Mn. I bought a new control box and cable before he closed but probably won't be the end of needs. Keep us posted on any vendor that may be of help with these units and good luck.
Learning that Steve Boller & his Throttle - Cruise Control business is not there for us is a BIG problem . . .
Yup, when the world went to electronic engines, the cruise control is built into the engine ECU. No more market for an (excellent) external cruise.
If I may, it is Cruise Control and Throttle System, spoke with M&M Electronics about taking on the King product and two other companies who specialize in repairing obsolete/out of production electronics. Same issue Stever Boler was having, some parts in the electronics are simply no longer available. Had my unit rebuilt by Steve last year and now fingers crossed. Not for sure where we go should it fail again.
"Same issue Stever Boler was having, some parts in the electronics are simply no longer available."
Someone should contact Dinosaur Electronics and contract with them for a re-design and manufacture of replacement boards.
Be interesting to know how many Forum coaches have the Cruise King or the Bendix cruise control setups. Our coach has the Bendix, which still works perfectly...but for how long? Due to the dearth of alternative systems, I dread the day ours dies. I would NOT like driving our coach without cruise control - it would be very tiring and not at all fun. Might be bad enough to convince me to hang up the keys.
I would wholeheartedly encourage and support financially ANY sincere attempt to source or engineer a suitable universal replacement system.
If any member tries installing the Rostra system I linked above (Reply #2) PLEASE be sure to post a detailed report on the Forum!
Alan,
Have you (or a tech) tried to do any trouble shooting? While doing some quick online research on the subject of this thread, I stumbled across the trouble shooting .pdf file linked below. Not having your system to look at, I don't know if this will be of any value to you.
Note: File contains 3 pages, but not in correct order. Scroll down to see all pages.
Edit: Never mind - I see that same file (plus other info) is available at the now defunct Cruise King web site:
Semi Truck, Bus, RV, Service Vehicle Cruise Control Installation (http://www.cruisecontrolking.com/#diagnostics)
Would this totally disable our King Cruise coaches? Or just disable the cruise control?
I sent my King Cruise to Steve last year for rebuild, but he sent it back and said it was good, but we all know how 25 year old electronic components go.
I bet Dinosaur is the best bet.
Here we follow the 3-day rule. New electronics are powered on and off and used for 3 days and if they don't fail within that time we expect good service, pretty much forever. Our original equipment RCA television blew a circuit board fuse for reasons unknown. eBay and a temperature controlled soldering iron combined with a certain skill set cured that issue. However the act of moving the television caused the age brittle'd circuit board to develop faults. A 19" 12VDC Jensen provided the cure although we did seriously consider running the Jensen in analog mode and continue using our digital to analog tuner converter because it has "good ears."
25 years alone isn't of concern for solid state electronics. I have some concern for our Bendix air throttle, a few hours with a pencil and a catalog eased my fears. The circuit board that is the cruise control? We have in house technicians for that.
Toolmaker,guess I missed something in translation, who and where has these in house techs to work on the board?
Well, I'm a retired old school toolmaker, with enough knowledge of electronics to know when to stop. But my ace card is my partner, a degreed electronics engineer with experience in military electronics. When I'm repairing something simple, it's his job to look over my shoulder and say "I wouldn't have done it that way." A D-104 microphone re-purposing still grates.
Right now we're in Lyons, GA riding out the health care crisis, and since there's no place we want to go right now, I'm re-doing the fuel system on the Siata since the one thing I paid to have done, the gas tank, failed.
You can only haul so much "stuff" and I didn't want to spend $600+ on TIG welding equipment to use only once.
I think the Rostra is probably the way to go, they've been around for quite a while. I was involved in installing one on a fuel injected motorcycle, was involved but ended up being a solid solution. Reading the literature, it seems like it would be worthwhile to mount the small servo unit inside, possibly on the face of the bed platform or more likely in an electrical gang box recessed flush.
Plug and play, no, but inexpensive and doable. Amazon sells it.
No "one answer fits all" to your first question. Some coaches used the King Control for BOTH throttle and cruise. Others used (or were later converted to) air throttle and King Control Cruise.
I doubt there would be enough volume to get Dinosaur's attention. Many levels of magnitude lower than refrigerator or water heater PC boards. And crash liability if their system failed would be another show stopper.
Never be down if King Throttle fails.
This thread shows practical temporary alternatives:
cruise king (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=36394.msg346072#msg346072)
Link mentions our wooden hinged throttle pedal that allowed us to drive for days without King Throttle Control. Pedal and wire are stored away, hopefully not come out again.
Not exactly a recommended replacement, but who knows. . .
Been there, done that.
But, from a liability standpoint, I would NEVER recommend it.
What about this?
Air Throttle (http://www.coachconversioncentral.com/airthrottle.htm)
Yes, there have been a number of owners who have converted to air throttle.
Hopefully, someone will post PN's. If not, I am sure MOT or Foretravel can assist with the parts list.
This IS a very good solution.
We do have an air throttle (put in by previous owner) And the King Cruise as a stand alone cruise control has worked famously for the last year until it's now failure.
Had my King control go up on way to Cocoa Fl. In early Jan. Found out King was out of business and no parts or service. Could not get any advice from Foretravel since they weren't aware of King Controls closing. Had an air pedal installed by trucking company in St Augustine. They said it would work fine. Not true. The Allison MD3060R doesn't know when to shift. Any suggestions?
Go back and check the linkages at/near the engine throttle. Sounds like the disconnected the transmission throttle position sensor.
When I had my Monaco Dynasty the King Control went out and Steve fixed it and while it was away I ran a wire to a bracket I made
on the throttle pedal to the engine throttle which worked fine but the transmission didn't shift properly. The wire running down the
middle of the coach was a pain.
Where to check the above referenced linkage:
On my C8.3 the throttle position sensor is mounted on the passenger side frame next to engine. The TPS cable is connected to the fuel injection pump lever between the fuel shutoff solenoid and the throttle cable.
Chuck, I do not see your throttle position sensor on our coach with the same engine. We do have King throttle with a throttle pedal with an electric sensor.
Not sure where Allison picks up our throttle position, but it could pick up from throttle pedal sensor.
Since JohnBest now has a aftermarket air throttle, he may find himself in a tough situation. Going by what oldguy and Barry are reporting (above), engines originally fitted with the electronic King throttle may not utilize a mechanical throttle position sensor (like on my engine). If that is the case, then some other means of providing the required "throttle position" input to the transmission will be required.
Might perhaps require a visit to a qualified Allison transmission repair facility to see if they can suggest a solution?
Here is a link to another thread concerning the mechanical throttle position sensor. It may or may not contain info of interest to JohnBest.
Allison MD3060R throttle position sensor location (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=36920)
Air Throttle (http://www.coachconversioncentral.com/airthrottle.htm)
I keep things I stumble on. This may or may not be of use.
Mark
Steve Boler, King Controls, confirmed the King Throttle System provides the TPS information to the Allison.
Steve indicates the attached drawing is mis-labeled as TPS and that device is actually a FILTER and the unit will work with or without the filter installed.
Now I know why, I could never find the TPS Device as others have installed on their coaches.
Hope this is helpful.
Safe travels to all.
So JohnBest (who we have not heard from since his post 3 days ago) had his King throttle replaced with a air throttle. Doing so eliminated the "throttle position" signal going to his Allison CPU. Now his tranny is "blind" and will not shift.
What are his options at this point?
It makes me wonder if there is a TPS inside control box in engine compartment that senses position of cable running to injector pump from King. If this is a discrete component it might be adaptable. If not feasible then probably retrofitting an Allison TPS will be called for.
lI'd probably be inclined to look at the possibilty of adapting an automotive style linear potentiometer TPS if one with right resistance values can be found.
I
The Bendix cruise control setup on my coach uses a slave air cylinder with a potentiometer built into the end. The potentiometer reads the throttle cable position and supplies the signal required by the cruise control function. I wonder if something like that could be substituted for the generic cylinder used on JohnBest's aftermarket air throttle conversion kit?
We decided to install the Rostra system 250-1223. We really had few options and thought this would be a worthy target. It is installed in my 1996 U295 with the 8.3 C Cummins mated to the Allison 3060R transmission. I had this done by a professional and am so glad I did. Here are the meaningful points. Keep in mind I am a geologist and have very limited skills/understanding.in this area.
1. We are the first RV to have one installed (we will learn whether it is a good thing or not). We had to involve Rostra engineering techs and Allison on a near daily basis. Seems the web designers and marketing geniuses are ahead of the engineering wizards. The sweet spot for this product has been with light trucks and autos. There is no HIGH IDLE FUNCTION and one was not engineered into this product. My high idle system is 5'1" and generally helpful in many ways.
2. We were able to tie it into the OEM wiring harness and add in wiring as necessary. We are using the multifunction switches built into the OEM turn signal light assembly. The product package came with a dash mounted switch if one chose to use it.
3. Added a magnet and sensor on the drive shaft, replaced a tach sensor in the top of the Allison (when we pulled it the magnet on the business end was about 1/32 in. The new one was more like 1/2 to 3/4 in. The tach signal strength improved lots.
4. The biggest challenge started when testing showed we could energize the system, could see the lights all light up as designed and - nothing. It was getting something, but couldn't or didn't react/engage. Rostra engineering started guiding test work and we determined the pulse and other signals being transmitted were outside the range engineered into the product for a car or light truck and would not result in an actionable data set for the device. The Rostra engineers were clueless about a diesel pusher with no computer.
5. Allison got involved and they would NOT give their equation for building the library of relationships (this was told to me in this manner probably to keep it simple). The techs went back and forth with them with all kinds of info requests like details of tire size in my vehicle, they had the tranny data, differential info, etc. They would crank their numbers and pass the data on to us then to Rostra. A wire here, a diode there, and pretty soon the VSS (?) unit started receiving data in English (haha) and came to life. Many test trips later and voila, we needed a Neutral Safety Switch to call it done.
I hope to have more experience test driving in December but right now it looks like "winner winner, chicken dinner"! I hope this helps those that find themselves in need of a King cruise replacement. I had them retain the old King box in case someone wanted to play electronics wizard. The bottom line is with King Controls gone, we know this works and the team at Apalachee RV in Auburn, Ga (NE of Atlanta) towards Athens have done it in a 96 Foretravel.
The photo shows the control box mounted behind the Throttle Position Sensor. Lots smaller than the old King box.
Alan, This is good news. Thanks for blazing the trail. Keep us posted.
Are you saying that Rostra is on board to help hundreds of coaches of many brands that are dead-ended with King. Are they also working on throttle as well as cruise?
I wrote to Rostra management giving them a heads up on King Cruise shutting down, explaining some background. I never heard back from Rostra.
Thanks,
Barry
I think the answer is "they had to help" us and seemed eager since they were developing solutions along the way for our situation. Since we were "the first" according to their staff, it probably was an opportunity to go back into product development mode using a real world situation. The fact that no high idle function was ever anticipated in the product suggests they really never understood the application to our heavy duty diesel. They never mentioned throttle applications (probably as weren't focused upon that issue as I have an air throttle.
Alan
Southwest International in Dallas, recently completed a conversion from the King Control to an Air Throttle and Cruise Control on a Country Coach. A fellow Monaco owner who spoke with Southwest International indicated the cost was not insignificant. Contact is Josh Wilhelm at (214) 689-1400. Southwest International, 3722 Irving Blvd, Dallas, TX 75247.
I had a person contact me for more information about our wrecked Monaco. He was hoping to watch the auction, track down the buyer, and offer to buy the accelerator system from it.
Also, I saw this recently...
King to Air Throttle Conversion - General Discussion - Bill D's Monacoers (https://www.monacoers.org/topic/579-king-to-air-throttle-conversion/)
Matt B
I have my old King Throttle box complete with the throttle cable. Be glad to ship to someone who might be interested in scavenging. Free to anyone who might need a winter project. Otherwise it will head to the disposal facility.
I'll take it please.
Ship to ;
Ogren ,Protech Racing
1220 Broad st.
Brooksville, FL
34604- 6812
Include the shipping amount, I'll send the cash. Thanks,MM 352.4288...983
Let you know when I get it out.
Hey all, been a while since I posted on here. Sad to sing King has shut down. More sad at my laziness over the years that I never sent them my cruise control box to get "rebuilt". It works fine, but it tends to lose speed on cruise control until I reset it it by hitting the brake. Looks like I got no fix now!
Anyway, I'm going to open up my box and see what is going on inside. I've been around the block once or twice and have some other nerd friends that between us we might be able to find some parts. I think I may just have a slipping clutch or stepper motor issue.
Quite a shame, and Stupid me for being a slacker and not addressing the problem years ago when I called up and talked to King on the phone.
If it comes down to complete replacement, I likely will go with some sort of PLC driven stepper motor.
At fist look it appears you can utillize the existing throttle pedal and wiring, tied to an arduino, with an H-bridge to handle the stepper currrent. This is a pretty common application and designs and the sketches for code are out there. I don't know where the existing tps resides, mine definitely does not have the separate cable driven potentiometer TPS, it is either incorported into the accellerator pedal or resides in the King box. Replacement pedal assemblies for trucks are available with TPS incorporated into assembly. I think its readily doable and probably less failure prone than an aging King unit.
So, that is a noise filter, and come to think of it there really shouldnt be a need for a mechanical tps, position can be provided by the same potentiometer that provides info to step motor controller.
I own a 1998 U270 with King Controls that I am converting to an air throttle. How did you eventually get your coach to shift? Did the garage replace the throttle positioning sensor?
I recently did this conversion. For the Allison to shift properly you will need to purchase an Allison Throttle Position Sensor (TPS). They run about $515. The cable from the TPS attaches to the fuel control lever on the injector pump.
jor
Scott,
See the links below for a chronological sequence of jor's informative posts on the subject "TPS" (read all the way through each thread:
1. King Control Throttle & Cruise (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=42330)
2. Throttle Position Sensor & Air Throttle (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=42505)
3. Air Throttle Solution for King Control Issue (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=43402)