Seen the Febreeze ad about being nose blind? I wonder if us Foretravel owners are also nose blind. Foretravel does make a decent product, but some of their engineering is deplorable.
Where is this leading? A friend of mine - who lives in a distant state - asked me to go look at a 98 Bounder at this particular RV dealer in our area. He is the largest dealer in region, and sells a number of brands - but not Fleetwood.
The particular unit my friend was looking for was not in stock (my friend apparently got his information wrong). The business owner searched stock of other nearby dealers - to no avail. He then made a shocking statement! Keep in mind that he doesn't sell Fleetwood. He stated that I would have a hard time finding a late 90s vintage Bounder as they are VERY popular. He said that if I found a 98, I would not likely get it for under $40K.
Then he dropped the bombshell! In his opinion, the Bounder was a TOP OF THE LINE motorhome that exceeded the quality and value of most other brands... such as Newmar (for which he is a dealer).
I'm still flaberghasted! Maybe I'm nose blind since we had never seriously considered anything but a Foretravel.
Larry
My brother and I have a saying "just about everybody buys a Bounder, once" Like the old Pace Arrows from the 70's
Maybe that dealer was a fan of Walt and Jessie's product in the series Breaking Bad!
I'll bite,I know it's close to election time but which engineering is deplorable?????????
John, we can start with fastener edge-margin. FOT has/had no concept of leaving a bit of distance between fasteners and the edge of the material. The bulkhead separation issue is a textbook example of how not at apply fasteners. Bay door hinges is another classic example of how NOT to build.
Using a discharge pipe that won't fit any sewer hose on the market is another aws&^t moment.
Putting the ballcock valve - to fill the fresh water tank or divert for household use so that older folks have to lay down on the floor to use it is about as dumb as it gets.
When we bought our first Foretravel, we nearly bought a Country Coach because all the filters were neatly arranged in bay - so easy to service.
I could (and have thought of) writing a book of all the STUPID design details FOT incorporated.
Larry
So why not just sell your Foretravel and trade up to a Bounder? Do whatever makes you happy.
I'm very happy with my 2003 U295. No bulkhead issues. No fastener issues, Thetford sewer fittings used to be on high end rvs only, including my Revcon. Used to be you'd buy the ends and hose separately and assemble yourself. You still can. Or buy an adapter. If you want to use readymade hoses.
I find the water fill valve very easy to reach while sitting on the commode. It's right there under the sink.
Craneman, I know nothing about Bounders...never even been close to one. But it was stunning (to me) that a successful multi-brand dealer would praise a brand that he doesn't even sell...let alone a Fleetwood product. I had always considered Fleetwood to be a bottom of the barrel product.
Larry
Like I said, Tom...nose blind.
Larry
Larry,
Owning a Foretravel is like owning a Jaguar. So many things to love but the FT team was not all on the same page in engineering and implementation. Our old $500 Southwind got us to so many places here, Canada and Mexico and it slept 6 but it was so poorly constructed, it would have been fatal to be involved in any accident.
For anyone who has owned a bus conversion, they are just light years ahead in choice of materials, construction, ease of maintenance and parts/shop manual publication. The bus compartment doors are enough to sell it alone. But the conversion companies don't have the same engineers the manufacture did so they often come up short.
Grade wise, our U300 gets a C+ with the later GV models with the big rear engine door and 6 speed get a B-. And that's being generous because we really love so much about the coach.
Bounders get an F with Alfa coaches not much better.
Pierce
https://www.rvtrader.com/1998-Fleetwood-Bounder/rvs-for-sale?make=Fleetwood%7C305435&model=BOUNDER%7C764834392&year=1998%3A1998
You are correct about them being bottom of the barrel, but price sucks some in, but only once.
Thanks for the link. Doesn't look like anything that I would be proud to own.
Larry
Larry you are correct may things can be improved. Over the years you can see the advancements. Bang for your buck though being nose blind it's hard to afford a better product. Understand these all are being built by minimum skilled employees trained to perform their task. I was just cleaning up the edges of the sliding step and was amazed that they were left raw as it was cut. But if they had built it to aerospace standards I personally would not have the pleasure of cleaning up what should of been done during built. Prior owners would of never purchased. Too much money. Yes proper hardware, installation, and my personal pet peeve corrosion control, primer and paint probably would've cost them out of production. Still very difficult to find something close for the same money in my opinion. All the junk lead me here.
Scott
Good points, sir.
At least on my 2002 U320 (new to us), an off-the-shelf sewer hose fits the discharge pipe right out of the box.
Wonder if you could have taken a new 90's something coach and gotten it Z-barted or Minged.
Yes, if we had known. But much is hidden and the tank overflow and wet bay design didn't help. This is the kind of thing that was not talked about when I joined, and I can remember a couple of members trying to keep it quiet as it might hurt the Foretravel name. Of course, the horse is out of the barn now but instead of keeping it under wraps, there are many with experience so it's not a death sentence but something to be aware of when you look at coaches for yourself or help someone inspect a potential purchase.
No, I had to modify the fitting to accept the off the shelf sewer hose. Think a lot of brands came with the old style.
Pierce
I like the kangaroo. If I could find one, I'd paste it on the side of this thing.
jor
" He stated that I would have a hard time finding a late 90s vintage Bounder as they are VERY popular. He said that if I found a 98, I would not likely get it for under $40K.
Then he dropped the bombshell! In his opinion, the Bounder was a TOP OF THE LINE motorhome that exceeded the quality and value of most other brands... such as Newmar (for which he is a dealer)."
Well............ everyone has their opinion, this guy is entitled to his and as shown in the link above it's not based on facts. We see more Bounders on the highways than most any other Class A. They are a Fleetwood product and cheaply made, thus the entry level price and popularity. I had a friend who owned one for a year and traded "up" to a Discovery model.
To each his own but I think I'll stay "nose blind" and keep my "pointy nose" FT Grand Villa!
You can find an image of a Kangaroo Jor but it won't likely be on the side of a 90's era motorhome that is STILL going down the road.
Well don't think I'm nose blind. But not to many 20+ year old fleetwoods and Winnebagos that run back and fourth across the country full time. The older F/T's, Beavers, Country Coach, and Monaco's are good solid machines yet today.
The statement from the dealer is really off the wall, I can only believe he was sending someone up.
IF you build a coach "over carpeting" you are a mass market product. Cabinets on top of carpeting. Gimp molding at the cabinet ceiling junction.
Don't consider myself nose blind. I have owned both, a 1996 bounder and a 1999 Foretravel.
The best way to experience it is to live it.
They all have their issues, but some have ALOT more issues than others. JMO
Jerry
Owned a 1999 gas Bounder and there is no comparison. Had some great times in the Bounder with the kids and put 36k miles on it. It was a rattle trap and could only drive it about 8 hrs and you were worn out. And that was 20 years ago.
BOUNDER! "A great machine", you forget who made the comment, a guy who probably started out as a used car salesman! All he wants to do is SELL!
So many RV sales people have never gone camping , know nothing about RV's in general and are technically inept!
The old Bounders were a low end, budget coach if ever there was one.
Twenty year old BOUNDER vs FORETRAVEL, one still works, the other is dead or dying with a lot of water leaks at the corner joints!
If you believe that the BOUNDER is a better coach than a Foretravel, he must be one hell of a good salesman!
Seriously, an underpowered front engine, small holding tanks, a small cheap generator, bargain basement interior, RV shower and plastic basin, not much storage, all on a chassis that flexes, and if I am correct a wood framed shell,
Even a blind person can see the difference, why did they use a Bounder on Breaking Bad? Because people could laugh at it and wonder where you would find something so awful.
Everyone to his own, I love how well our 21 year old Foretravel rides, just got back from 925 miles in the Pennsylvania mountains over the week end, and it's KING!
This wasn't a Bounder, probably slightly better build quality. Fortunately the occupants survived.
No real structural integrity. Likely a shoebox fastened to the chassis by means of wood screws into the wood floor.
Deplorable..... really ,,,
Ad us to the nose blind group. Pretty happy with our pointy nose GV also.
And who the heck uses the water valve anyway. Go with direct fill and pump It out with the on board water pump, to be safe.
One reason you see more of them is many are rentals.
When we needed to replace the Rockwood, I was resigned to flexible chassis, and sticks and staples construction. But for the amount of money I wanted to spend I was looking at late 1990s Fleetowood Bounders. I also wanted the V-10. And just as the road to hell is paved with gold, and gently sloped I was budgeting $2,500 for that 100,000 mile spark plug change when Lynn innocently said, "Have you considered a Foretravel?" I was sold on the Unihome frame. Yes, just as it is with any limited production vehicle there are "issues," but I jumped on the best example that fit my wants and desires and have not looked back.
Yes I'd like a 6V92 but after 33 years of summertime driving the same 1950 Chrysler, I'm comfortable with the 5.9 Cummins and the 4-speed Allison. Air bag suspension? Very nice but the torsion bars are properly sized for the weight of the U225 and I'm o-kay with the stiff ride.
Old TM,
I wonder if new progressive rate shocks would do for your ride? That's part of the way that they get the cars with the ultra low profile tires to ride well. Not much flex on a tire only 2 inches from wheel to pavement.
Pierce
Have an 01 Excursion with a V-10,read up on the spark plugs,the $2500.00 is only if the threads get stripped,was an easy change,
get the plugs,for the price get a set of new coils,Let the engine sit OVERNIGHT,and soak in some penetrating oil,take your time and change the plugs,not rocket science.
John,
You have it. A friend of our neighbor did a plug change on his PU and then had to have it towed to the dealer to have the heads pulled. Like you said, overnight, something like
Liquid Wrench and then out they come. Anytime the heads or a oil pan is made out of aluminum, you need a torque wrench to install them correctly and make sure the next time they are pulled, they don't take lots of aluminum with them.
If you do use anti-seize on the threads, a little goes a long way and reduce the torque by about 20%. Here is a discussion on it: No Anti Seize on NGK Spark Plugs For Aluminum Heads? | For B Bodies Only... (https://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/no-anti-seize-on-ngk-spark-plugs-for-aluminum-heads.172155/). 4 thread aluminum heads only get about 11 ft.lbs.
Pierce
When I put the new plugs in I used a 1/4 inch ratchet and if you do reuse the plugs get new washers.
Steel plugs into aluminum heads, turn them anti clockwise slowly till they drop into the thread pattern. Wish I had a dollar for every small engine aluminum head that I've had to fix, heli coil or scrap bin mmm, had a rental store.
And, by HAND. If too deep to reach by hand, slip a hose over the top/outer end and start it that way.
Two different levels/classes of motorhomes.. Assumed we all knew that before now.
Well, I passed on the Fleetwood Bounder and am happy with my 5.9 Cummins. But I am the proud owner of a shiny new M12 X 1.25 TiCN coated thread forming tap because after all of the above, over the period of a week, I found the tap had an aluminum bug welded in at the start of its thread and I wound that all the way out. Luckily reforming the threads saved my bacon. The first generation Honda V-4 motorcycle engine is like working on a watch.
FWIW the problem was that the spark plug center electrode broke and was arcing to the side of the shell, right where the bug formed. About 30,000 miles ago.
I honestly did not believe that anything less than a bus conversion could be built this well.
Yeah, about those shocks. When that task surfaces I'll deal with it, but for now there is no dampening on the front.
No Koni FSD's for the U225 and U240. The Koni shocks are the red/brown adjustable shocks (rebound dampening is what is adjustable). The suggestions on the Koni website are from our coach in working with one of Koni's engineers. This was before FSD's.
Not enough volume in the U225 and U240 line to warrant marketing a unique shock.
KONI NA | List (http://www.koni-na.com/en-US/NorthAmerica/Products/Motorhome/List/?t=KoniPartSearch&q=1993&m=622&mk=77&mt=9)
Bounder?
I don't think any of them are going to fair very well once you run em down in a ditch, then slide em down the road in their side. That going to junk em.
Close proximity of the chassis after upset looks like it got tired of hanging on the coach and flopped off.
The cabin looks fairly intact and square. Not a complete failure .IMHO
We sold our 1995 33' Pace Arrow for a 2008 36' Mobile Suites fifth wheel, had it for seven years, and bought our 1997 40' Foretravel.
The Pace Arrow is two trim lines above the Bounder. Bounder, Southwind, Pace Arrow.
The Pace Arrow retailed around $70K during the same period our Foretravel retailed at $340K. A Bounder probably hasn't gone for more than $40K after it left the dealers' lot. Fleetwood did make a DP Bounder, but not in the 90's. Those were all gassers.
We bought the Pace Arrow off Ebay for about $14K because we couldn't afford both a big pickup and a fifth wheel. We needed to do something because my elderly wife (in her early 40s) couldn't sleep well on the 4" mattress and canvas walled bed in our pop-up anymore. We had to replace the supplementary air bags (the front of the Pace Arrow had coil springs with an air bag in them), the tires, shocks, refrigerator, water pump, and exhaust manifold. To work on the engine, you had to lay on the floor inside and reach around to the front of the engine from the dog house (the interior hood of the engine).
Camping in a trailer bolted to a UPS delivery truck chassis is a different experience than a Foretravel. They're not even in the same class. Foretravel wasn't even in the same class as most diesel pushers of the time. I refer to it as a $200K motorhome with $140K of options.
As noted in other posts, the Foretravel is kicking our butts in upgrades and "deferred maintenance". I miss the popup for it simplcity. I probably had about $10K in the Pace Arrow for total cost of ownership over five years. I think we hit $10K in the Foretravel within five months. I don't miss the Pace Arrow. It was overloaded, drove like the steering was connected with bungie cords, the interior was tight with no slides (our no slide Foretravel has MUCH more room), I hated working on it, and it had the rotten green switch (parking brake pump valve), which I've changed out on the side of a busy road. Ever had your parking brake apply at 60MPH? Not fun.
We had great times in it, but it wasn't a keeper. For a mid-90s camper at $40K, you want a keeper.
A mid-90s Bounder for $40K. Naw. I bet you can find them all day for $4K.
I'm going to eat my words here. They're much higher than they used to be, but still not $40K. Not $4K either, though.
Tom
You had a Revcon? Did it have the poop burner upgrade? I was chassis shop Forman 70-71. Everyone quit and went to work across the freeway in Fountain Valley to Hall GTC new plant.
Original owners of Revcon, started it.
I moved to Nor Cal, started my Van shop when it got ugly around there.
We had a jingle we sang to the Micky Mouse jingle...... "R_E_V_C_O_N M_O_U_S_E"
And yes, they had a option that took black tank water along with the tank trout, and plumbed it into the exhaust. It worked. Installed several!
Still have a brochure/book of a tour through the factory.
Bet that exaust smelled like crap.
Sir, I need to correct you. Georgie Boy was the bottom of the barrel. Trust me, I took a factory tour as a tech. We sold them for a short period at the Coeur D Alene FT store. :D
Chris
We had a selection of "seconds" over the years,
Southwind a rattling piece of junk but it slept 8, had the thetford 55 gal can with a galaxy on top.
Winnebago can't say much more than it was so rudimentary it felt like camping in a shed. Chrysler motor made it go like !
Tioga Class C bottom feeder.
Holiday Rambler straight pull trailer, underneath fully skirted in aluminum, jacks built in, automatically counter braked to arrest truck induced sway. Quality product all the way.
Foretravel GV top of the heap by a long way.