I truly hate it that my first post here has a less than positive tone; but, I feel it could be a meaningful tidbit for this community. .........I recently identified a used Foretravel that fit my preset parameters of size, condition, cost, etc. As I was several states from Texas at the time and wanted "eyes on" I started searching for an inspector that would travel to Nac and came up empty handed (20/20 hindsight it looks as if I should have inquired here). Anyhow, I'm no novice to the inspection process having purchased several vehicles on-line (and always with a satisfactory result - I believe inspections work). In all cases the "deliverable" of an inspection is a written report describing what systems were verified, how verified, to what standard, and pass/fail. Many times comments are added quantifying/qualifying the finding. Anyhow, I advised MOT I was having difficulty locating an inspector and they offered that service from within for the price of $700 (which seemed market $$ to me). So, we (I) agreed to purchase that service. A couple of days later I received a "text" with some 8-10 deficiencies noted (light inoperative, oil drip, roof needs resealed, etc). No words of explanation, photos, a list of what all was checked, or anything else. I did challenge the product and many days later received an email that said "I thought so and so called contacted you". Well please benefit from my $700 lesson learned and hold fast to a "3rd party" inspection process. I heard great things about MOT going in. Know that YMMV. Travel Safe!
Being personally on hand for an inspection is CRITICAL. You want Keith or whoever you have inspect the coach be able to SHOW YOU what he is looking at. Wear old clothes.
To be fair, an inspector needs to know a reasonable amount about YOU to be able to communicate. How is he to know if you are a reasonable shade tree mechanic or don't own a screwdriver and have zero interest in ever getting your hands dirty.
How is he to know if you have the time to do reasonable "shade tree skill" maintenance over the next year or are leaving that afternoon for a 6 month trip with no place to work on it.
Communication by remote on something as complex as a diesel pusher is NOT a simple process.
And, I hope that this kind of communication goes on between the inspector and any potential buyer.
Wow,
I agree with Texas Shriner.
$700 dollars spent and that's what you got. I paid 600.00 for my inspection which took 6 hrs to complete and included 5 different fluid samples for analysis. A written report was included and lots of photos. I was there and asked lots of questions because it was my first RV.
I found the inspector on line at NRVIA and when I spoke to him I asked about his background in the RV world.
Personally I would never buy a coach without an in person visit with Keith or Brett on hand. It's too big and too complicated of a purchase to not see it in person.
TS, I suggest you call MOT on the phone and express your dissatisfaction. I'm sure they will resolve it.
I have had the honor to experience an inspection by Brett Wolfe, it is beyond thorough, with plenty of explanations, clear communications, it takes time and yes, wear some old clothes, if you wish to fully experience everything that is being pointed out. Take notes or video the session, it is a learning experience. Thanks Brett.
Not that it matters now. This "inspection" was a way to "vet" the coach condition before reversing direction and traveling the 900+ miles for a first hand inspection. The end result was the same I guess as it allowed me to "vet" MOT in the process (I'll likely not return to that well). This is just a friendly reminder to everyone - understand the "deliverable" prior to agreeing to the process. $700 for a small texted burn down list is unethical in my opinion. Regardless, I'm $700 light and will be watching the classifieds.
Classified section here seems to always have some nice coaches lately. Good luck in your search
TS, only because you are accepting it.
If you call the owner of MOT and expressed your dissatisfaction there is no doubt that they would fix it. MOT has built a successful business all based on providing excellent customer service.
Venting here won't fix it but calling MOT and speaking to the right person undoubtedly would.
MOT is a business like any other. This one happens to be Foretravel centric. My free advice, worth what you paid for it :)) ... if you want a Foretravel a trip to NAC would serve you well. Meet the staff, explore the vast inventory, figure out what works for you and have them find a coach. Pay Keith or Brett to inspect it and attend the inspection and learn about these amazing coaches and how to care for them and what to avoid.
Best wishes on your search.
Thanks for the advice, I'll seriously consider contacting MOT Ownership. Although it does kinda read that way "venting" wasn't my intent. I DID agree to the fee, the deliverable was just not in tune with industry standards and in the end resulted in me halting further negotiations. I was just hoping to save other potential buyers the aggravation.
Thanks
I had a bad experience there several years ago. Once I explained my frustration they promised it will never happen again...and it hasn't. They have bent over backward to take care of us. I believe they will do the same for you.
TS, do you have the name of the guy that did the inspection? Don"t post it here, but if it wasn't Keith you may been mislead. It is possible that a different mechanic at MOT decide he could make a few after hour $$ by doing inspections, that he isn't qualified to do.
It is possible that Keith dropped the ball on the inspection, but that is not the reputation he has here based on other inspections performed
Keith is EXCELLENT in person.
I have no information on how his written/photographic skills are (either way-- as I am a strong believer in "let me look at the coach through YOUR eyes").
The few times I have been doing a coach inspection at MOT and been stumped, Keith has always had the answers. Things like "wavy fiberglass bottom"??? Turns out that a diesel leak will dissolve the foam and as the diesel evaporated the foam "reforms" in unusual lumps, deforming the bottom FG. Only seen one of those in 22 years of Foretravel experience, but needed to know.
TS; I would contact Mr. Robertson on your dissatisfaction and he will make it right. He certainly took care of us when we had a disagreement on things fixed, etc. Keith charged me $500 and I was there with him over the whole coach. However, I did not know that the bill was going to be run through MOT, as when I tried to give the money to Keith, he told me that. Just saying...........
Thanks for the advice everyone. I will get the contact info for Mr Robertson and engage. Tomorrow; however, will likely involve getting out of Laura's way ;-).
When I had my coach inspected by Keith several years ago it was a private arrangement between him and me. Seems that MOT want's their cut now. Consequently the price has risen a LOT.
Keith
Is Keith with MOT?
Yes, he is the shop foreman.
He is also highly recommended by many on this forum as someone to do a pre-purchase inspection on a Foretravel.
Final update from me on this topic - I reached out to Motor Homes of Texas CEO on 1 September and have not received a reply. So, I doubt I'll be dealing with MOT again. My recommendation to all is tread carefully. For full disclosure, I've attached the ONLY communication I received for my $700 expense. Travel safe all!
Item #8.............isn't that for water runoff in the rain?
Take away number 8 and it cost you $100 an item,seems kind of pitiful to me.
Could it be that these are the only issues found that need addressing? All other components checked good.
If you haven't done so already I'd give Jason Haskins a call. He is general manager now and should be able to help you.
I have to agree that I think $700.00 for a report like that is very poor. I would expect a full report such as AC's , Outside temp 92, AC 1 putting out x and AC 2 putting out Y. I can not believe you did not get any up close pictures of the items they were talking about and other items.
I would think if I wanted to buy the coach and asked the salesperson what the age of the tires were I would get that answer without paying $700.00
I would have thought it a waste of time calling the general manager, as it appears he's not managing anything, generally or otherwise. Someone or something OK'd that bill for what I would think was ten times what they delivered and would certainly make me reluctant to risk a repeat performance. IMHO.
When I had my business I would like to have billed out at $700 an hour ?
For $700.00 they ought to have a comprehensive checklist completely filled out.
Are you are satisfied with this outcome?
I wouldn't be and wouldn't accept that my email wasn't returned. Maybe they didn't get the email. Why accept this, waste $700 and end it on this note?
I'd pick up the phone and call Jason Haskins or David Robertson. I know they answer their own phones.
I do not mean to sound difficult or rude here but if it were my $700 I'd advocate harder for myself and make sure I got what I paid for.
This is a good company but I know they are busier than ever. This isn't an excuse for them not answering your email but maybe they didn't receive it. Face to face is best for a resolution but a phone call is the next best thing.
Thank you for posting this info on your experience. This has made me completely reluctant to now deal with MOT, if this is what $700 is worth. I am sorry this is what you received.
There should have been many many pictures, a detailed system by system report, etc.
Guys, guys, guys, don't completely shut what sounds like a first class operation out because of a mis or lack of communication. Whats really sad in the world we live in is people tend to accept first class service as the "norm" with no positive return, and let the train jump the track once and its "Katy bar the gate". I was a fixed operations director in automotive dealerships for more years than I care to admit. The bottom line is, if you don't let them know and get a reply that they know that something below par happened, they cannot remedy it. Period. Folks, no one is perfect, and no one wants to have to challenge a bad deal,but, if you don't, how can they fix it. Contact them first. Make sure they have received your complaint. If then they don't respond favorably, then the world probably needs to know. I see now that there are TWO people that won't engage them regardless of if they have had dealings or not. Not the way to do business. And no, I'm not scolding. Just did this for close to 40 years, and it hits close to home..... Stay safe!!!!
There is definitely something missing on this issue. MOT must not be getting the messages or as they say "where is the rest of the story".
Reminds me of some of the bad stories from our friend Bernd,he never took the time to give his side of the story.
His post says he "reached out" to the CEO on Sept 1st Was it an email? Why not talk directly with the shop as many have suggested. No response from the PO lately. A CEO probably has spam filters as I do and doesn't read every email. Not trying to make excuses but from all the positive reports that have been posted about MOT there must be more to the story.
MOT is a respectable company and usually a pleasure to deal with, however, I did get charged $100 for fresh water while having other service performed. When I brought it to Mr. Robertson attention, he agreed with me, explained why it happen, and refunded my $100. I think that says a lot about the company. I have brought issues to Bern'd and all you get from him is,"he knows about that! ".
One other thing to consider is how the covid has changed everything. It amazes me how a business can even be able to run with the costs of covid virus.
Since I have recently been through this process with MOT's Keith Risch, let me provide a little more detail. TS indicated that at $700 the detail should be more descriptive than what was received. I checked with several NIRV Level 2 inspectors and they all required $1200 to do the inspection. Inspection was to be accomplished on weekend since all had full-time jobs at some RV repair facility. You can go on-line and find them in the area closest where the coach is located. They will give you a detailed report. But at $1200 do you need it or just what to know what isn't working or just what needs repaired? Next, My decision to go with Keith was based on his known reputation with Foretravel's and comments on this Forum. Any other inspector may have never seen a Foretravel and I wanted the experience factor. Lastly, If you are going to spend a large amount of money for a coach, you better off in all aspects to go see what it looks like and get more details of what actually the condition it is in. That will allow you to give a more confident bid to purchase. You can assess the cost's in hours to repair/replace parts and factor that at typical shop rate $135/hour + parts cost. I ASSUME (yeah, I know) TS indicated what they wanted checked and if driving it was also included or not. The list of defects TS got indicates that normal maintenance was not being kept up with tires being outdated and filters not changes since 2017. The next question would be what else isn't being done that should be and add that cost factor into the final bid as well. So, my question to TS would be, Was this a fishing expedition or were they considering a serious bid? As Lt403 said "my inspection which took 6 hrs to complete and included 5 different fluid samples for analysis. A written report was included and lots of photos. I was there and asked lots of questions because it was my first RV. I found the inspector on line at NRVIA and when I spoke to him I asked about his background in the RV world." Our inspection took 6 hours, we took a lot of photos and videos, and did all that owner would allow for operations. You really have to be there with inspector if you want the "Full Monty".
My question would be,what does MOT actually check and or fix when they take a coach in to sell?Seems to me most of the things noted on the $700 bill would have been noted when you took the coach in.
All boils down to how much money you have and are willing to spend on a inspection and how much you know and understand about a Foretravel,most of the knowlegeable folks here on the forum could do just as good a job as a "certified" any level inspector
and probably won't charge $200 an hour,it's like the old guy on the hearing aid commercial said"they charge whatever they can get".
My view and perspective on this topic, as a long term customer and observer of MOT, and member of this forum.
On consigned coaches (60-was 75% of inventory???) MOT does an Intake inspection when they bring in a coach from a consignor - they require all major systems to be operational and they drive the coach briefly to note any obvious issues. They also do a visual check to note obvious significant flaws such as delamination, leaks, etc.
The assumption is that the tires and batteries are in the as received condition, (they do not require tires or batteries within a given age on a consignment coach, their experience being that the buyer and seller need to agree on a price and often tires, etc. are a part of the negotiation). If they required newer batteries and tires on intake, many customers would balk at that investment prior to having the cash from the sale of the coach. MOT does not do an in depth inspection of the vehicle (IE - age of filters, recency of service, status of bulkheads, status of fluids, and all the other insights you get when you pay for an independent inspection.) It is after all a used coach and in most cases owned by a third party.
I am not sure of the proces on MOT owned coaches, but I believe they have an intake process for those coaches as well and a minimum standard that is required WRT service items such as fluids, et., but you would have to check with them on the coaches that are owned by MOT.
FWIW MOT will refuse consignment coaches that have obvious flaws or issues at intake, I have been there when that has occured.
Ketih is a wonderful resource and knows his Foretravels cold. Yes, for the amount of money paid, a much better summary should have been given, likely with a few pictures of items of note with explanations. That being said, Keith is a technician, not a writer or author, and MOT is not focused on these inspections, so the result (while not excusable) is easy to understand how it could happen. Most of us with MOT and Keith experience are happy to go back and use MOT, because they have a long history of honest transactions, great customer service and honest business dealings. It is terribly unfortunate that your experience was unsatisfactory with regards to your inspection.
If you are buying a Foretravel, especially an older Foretravel, an inspection is warranted. As has been said here many times, the best inspection includes Keith or Brett Wolfe, a full day of the buyer's time at the coach with the inspector, with the buyer dressed in work clothes, armed with a flashlight, notepad and camera. A report is great (and way better than buying a coach without professional input), but nothing substitutes for being there for that inspection. You will basically be creating your own report as you note the pluses and minuses of the coach while working with the inspector. You also learn an immense amount about how the coach works and invaluable maintenance tips. And if you decline the coach for reasons discovered during the inspection, that i far from wasted expense, it is likely some of the best money ever spent.
As for the sales person, they have approx 60 -100 coaches on the lot at any given time. Coaches arrive and depart daily, Given the volume and diversity of the inventory, the salesperson likely does not generally have more than a cursory understanding of any individual coach, until a transaction is in play. The sales role then shifts to the need to answer questions and inform the buyer about the coach to the best of the salesperson's ability, generally over the phone and from a significant distance.
The sales professional's job is to interface between the buyer and seller, answering questions and trying to find a win/win transaction between buyer and seller. The best ones are wonderful at it, others don't come close. But expecting a salesperson to be able to give detailed insight into 75 coaches that rotate on a frequent basis is unrealistic.
Your mileage will vary at any RV dealership as to the quality of the sales force, and MOT is no different in that respect, but MOT and the owner David Robertson will not tolerate deceptive practices by anyone that works at MOT. And if someone places a call to David Robertson or Jason Haskins, I would be shocked if that call was not returned by one of those individuals, but sometimes things fall through the cracks, perhaps a rec-call might get a different result.
Of course, business entities can change over time, the best can get bad and the worst can improve. Every business needs to earn customer loyalty with every transaction every day. Sadly MOT failed your needs and expectations in this case.
Tim,
Well said.
So very true John. The learning experience as a novice is substantial. A diesel pusher is a sophisticated piece of equipment that was made so much easier thanks to the generous members of this forum. Without which would be a total panic for new owner. Thanks to all the members that contribute knowledge and assistance to their members.
I think there is a industry attitude that if one owns a pusher, they have lots of money so charge like hell.
There are always at least 2 sides to every story. You get what you accept in any business interaction.
I wouldn't let this post sour you on Foretravel or MOT. I've had good experiences at Mot and we love our Foretravel. The OP obviously did not have a good experience at MOT. That can happen with any business.
The reality is that MOT has more used FT's For sale In one place than anyone else in the country. If you are looking for FT, MOT is a great place to go to see a variety of coaches so you can figure out if the brand is for you.
David Robertson (MOT owner and CEO), Keith R. and more than a few Service techs started out working at Foretravel. There is a wealth of FT experience and knowledge Available at MOT. It's best to decide for yourself than to decide based on an internet post.
In my experience Providing excellent customer service and satisfaction are very important to MOT. My point is that everyone has their own expectations. Mine were high and I made sure they were achieved.
Forum member, Brett Wolfe did my Independent inspection. It took half a day and I did the inspection shadowing Brett and taking notes. It was invaluable and I filled a notebook that I am still using 5 years later. In addition to what you'd expect...bulkheads, Roof, fluid analysis, mechanical, appliances, etc., Brett told me what had been done, what needed to be done immediately and in the future. He showed me how everything worked and how to maintain the coach.
You have to be your own best advocate and make sure that your expectations are met.
Best wishes,
Jeff
One thing we all agree on is if you are having an inspection done,be there,you will gain valuable info and miss out on alot if your not there.
Sorry I haven't updated this post; but, I have been off the grid on a Gila Wilderness trip with sat phone being the only communication option since then. Thanks for the inputs. After I rest up, I'll read the comments made in the week I was off the grid. That being said, about a week ago Dave Roberts contacted me and profusely apologized for MOT's delayed response to my "complaint". His response was professional and to the point. He stated they had a strict process for inspection and that it had fallen through the cracks on my transaction - "no excuses and how can we make this right with you" (me). He promised a full refund. He also promised to do whatever he could to keep me as a future customer. I appreciate his position and have taken him for his word to repair this situation. MOT recovery seems to be that of class operation that I've heard so much about.
You sir also seem to be a class act, but as a Texas Shriner I gotta ask: Is your Toad one of those little cars?
Thank you. HaHa...nah I parade on a motorcycle...but, those lil cars are kinda cool ;-)
I have been a wholesale buyer for hundreds of high line rv's. Long ago. Most fairly recent models back then. Within 5 years inspections rarely showed serious issues. Ten years more. We bought our 97 in 2012. 100k miles then. Most systems needed redoing. The Barks traded up versus dump a bunch of money into this one. Good decision for them.,
We were the not normal buyers having been a Foretravel sales manager in the late 80's.
We said "we will have a Foretravel some day."
Phone rang. Do I want a coach? No. The right answer.
Where is it? Local. Ok we will look.
Mistake. No not really. We liked old Foretravels
Ah a 320. Kool. Mid door? Kool.
As DSD did I assume he payed low enough to eat all the repairs needed to restore the coach.
Everyone wants a retail product for wholesale. God bless.
Inspections are nice idea. Our coach had an inspection done by my old stores parts manager.
God bless tommy. He missed most everything as I expected. Bought it anyway.
Doubled our original price plus in 8 years as expected. Last thing I got for free was worth exactly what I paid.
The value was/is in driving out the "good" we put in this coach in the future.
The point is very few "inspectors" can replicate someone rving in a coach for an extended period.
My old customers loved me as I took most trades rving then fixed everything and have them the right to bring it back in the future to have me fix things in the future.
Worked for me and my store. No one thinks this way anymore or even back then. Only me.
Foretravel left me alone which was unheard of as we went from 25 coaches new to 59 plus 41 used in 3 years.
Everyone wants to win, sometimes you just get to play the game.
To quote Heinlein "there is no such thing as a free lunch" also "I know the game is crooked but how are you going to win if you don't play.
Sometimes you just get to put precious body parts on the railroad tracks and pray a train does not come by....
TS, glad it worked out for you!
Thank you for the work you do raising money for the Shriner's hospitals.
Some of us like tiny cars. Easier to tow.
Please clarify.
Keith is an employee of MOT, and he is reliable as an independent inspector of Foretravel coaches?
Brett, do you still do inspections? Seasonal?
Matt B
Bob,
Sure, a lot of people want to buy cars, RVs, planes, trips, etc. wholesale but few have learned the trade. You can't just go up to a car lot and say, "I don't want to pay your price, I want it cheap" can you? If you have a lot of disposable income, you can complain about the price but in the end, you pull out the checkbook and pay the price. On the other hand, if you have dreams but a beer income, you find a way to buy for less, perhaps a fraction of the price. That's always been my way since I retired and my income was drastically reduced many, many years ago.
I've always loved to travel and especially to more offbeat locations like North Africa, The Balken countries, etc. I noticed there were prices for regular tourists and for another for backpackers. The prices posted said "no bargaining" but listened as the backpackers or fellow countrymen would haggle for sometimes hours over a relatively small amount of money. After a while, I started to realize that their life was slower and haggling was a necessary ability and an enjoyable part of their lives.
Attitudes are regional and cultural. My in-laws went on a very expensive cruise down the Nile in Egypt. Just as the ship was about to sail, a backpacking couple walked up the ramp and asked to talk to the captain. They haggled for about 5 minutes and paid about 20 percent of what my in-laws did. They were so resentful and for years, that always seemed to come up in travel talk.
Inspections: Yes, they are important in selecting the coach that will have the least amount of problems/cost both short term as well as during the years ahead. But, no inspector is going to be able to foresee every problem that will come up and can't be faulted for things that go wrong. You do have to take responsibility for the inspector you choose as well as for things that go wrong down the road. No, the trans cooler failure (e.g.) was not the inspector's fault, they don't have a crystal ball.
You also can't expect a shop that sponsors NASCAR races to give you competent and reasonable prices for any work you have done there.
Just as you can see a mentally challenged person coming toward you almost a block away, a dealer/seller can tell by your body language what kind of buyer he or she is about to meet. So easy to smile and shake hands.
But do your homework ahead of time, don't be in a hurry and expect to travel even across the U.S. to find your coach and then if reasonably lucky, you may enjoy years of ownership with most of the expense being diesel and insurance. This assumes you can do your own basic maintenance like oil changes, air bags, etc.
And for a Frugal Fred like me who may like to cruise the Nile on a deluxe ship for a fraction of the price, give me or Mr. Bob a call. $200pp total for 5 nights on a deluxe ship with the best cabin or pay $$$$ here or in Egypt for this quote: "Yes these cruise packages offered online or by travel agencies in Egypt start from around $200 per day and that's just for a basic ship – roughly equivalent to a 3*star hotel.
Pierce