so just picked up the coach... made it 20 miles from Nacogdoches before engine shutoff. I was fixated in my trans Temps, and did not notice my engine Temps shot up above 220.
They had just replaced the fan controller, and did a radiator flush... it seems to have coolent ( too hot to check). If I let the engine cool all the way, anyone think it's safe to drive it 13 miles back to the repair facility? It's that or call for a tow?
How hot is safe before I should pull over?
The fans are kicking on, these seems to be coolent...
They are closed for the weekend....
If coolant was changed, quite possible there is an air pocket. Once cool, check coolant level.
Do you have a coolant overflow recovery tank? If so, watch the level in that tank as the engine cools. If the level goes down, add enough coolant to keep the tank around half full. After several engine heating/cooling cycles the COLD level in the tank should stabilize. At that point, all the air has been displaced from the cooling system.
Photo of the tank on our coach below:
Yes. You can drive it until the temp starts above 200 then shut it down if you have not made it the 13 miles but you should be able to. Then, when cooled off, do it again.
I did that in Kansas.
MOT has after hours emergency tech support hotline. Says it's 8am-5pm on Saturday and Sunday. Might give them a call.
936-462-3996
Try their help line at MOT I think this is it (936) 462-3996
Tim Fiedler
Gen-Pro.biz
630 240-9139
But, if the coolant level in the cooling system is low, there will be air there, so the overflow reservoir will not function as it should-- the air in the system will absorb the expansion as the engine warms up.
So, at least for a couple of times after changing coolant, with the engine cold check by removing the radiator cap.
Let us know how much you are able to add.
Had my engine flushed this spring. Drove it home 35 miles and parked it. Temp stayed 190. Went to move it this week, 1 1/2 gallons low. I can't find any leaks. Has to be air pocket. Drove it for a few miles to the house. The coolant level is still full. Will check it again after the next few trips to make sure all the air is out.
Larry
I let it cool for a few hours, was able to add 1 container to the coolent tank. (Not the overflow) I made it back to the repair shop, left them a message... I was over 220f within 10 miles.. as I pulled in. At idle in neutral the temps kept rising. The fans were running, it has coolent... blockage, maybe the air bubble? Pump? I guess ill find out. The engine and turbo sound healthy and it had power...
Glad I could make it back to the shop. I put it in because after a 1200 mile trip it would get near 220 occasionally, while pulling toad up steep mountin grades. They said it needed a new fan controller... it's obviously much worse now.
The temps are much too high, too quick to make it back to dallas. I'm suspecting the coolent is not circulating, as the overflow was cold, despite the high temps
Hyd pump belt missing?
jk
Not if the fans are running.
As to whether they are running at the proper speed-- THAT is another question.
Check coolant level again in the morning (remove radiator cap).
I'm not very knowledgeable on the Cummings ISM 450, so take with a grain of salt... I only see 2 belts, both look snug. I think it's a gear driven pump.
Thanks for the help all. I'm inclined to lean on the repair shop, since they just tinkered with it. I'm leaving the coach in Nac. and heading back to Dallas.
My main concern was getting off the hwy, and not damaging the engine. I "think" I accomplished that. Ya'll are awesome helping me out on your holiday weekend. I'll let you know what I find out.
The 2 belts are for the alternator and the air conditioning. Water, fuel, air compressor and hyd pump are gear driven
The engine physically shut down? Versus a temp warning light? I have had mine over 220 on the dash gauge with no warnings many times.
VPMS said nearly 10 degrees less at the engines ECU btw at that high of temp.
Do you have a heat gun?
IMO, the fact that the gauge is now reading hotter is enough to make one want to determine WHY.
Said another way, whether gauge is accurate or not, the fact that it is now reading hotter is material.
Agreed, it is much hotter. MOT called me back btw... was extremely helpful, asked if I was stranded or needed help. He stated the ISM will shut down to protect itself, and he's thinking its a thermostat. I did not see warnings until my power steering cut. I was able to easily guide it of the road and break... I did not feel it created a dangerous situation... it was almost like it cut power for a time before shutting down. That's probably better than cracked heads and a warped turbo.
I'm extremely impressed with the customer service if MOT however. Had I known.
I have a scan gage, it stated WT is 202f at peak, while VDO stated 240ish... I don't know if the scan gage is referencing the same data point however....
Thermostat?
Cummins ISX Thermostat Housing - 4059212 (https://vanderhaags.com/detailview.php?part=24373314&adtype=googleshopping&keyword=&matchtype=&aid=418735834716&source=adwords&gclid=Cj0KCQjw7sz6BRDYARIsAPHzrNIGcRln1NQM4Z412ZB_ySpX2Avp30MaUviJ6OrJoeol3wGa8OvTDiQaAuWREALw_wcB)
That's what the MOT mechanic was suspecting.
Sounds like you have a low coolant sensor in the coolant tank? If low enough would it shut off the power. 202 surely would not do it as far as I know?
Low coolant sensor failure will allow engine to run 30 seconds then shuts down. Can repeat start and thirty second run cycle. Allows operator to remove from road.
Scott
There should have been an alarm prior to shutting down. If there wasn't, find out why.
You won't regret investing in a Silverleaf or whatever that other system that some are using because you can watch the temps so much more closely than with the gauges.
There are so many things to get used to on a coach. I'm sorry you're having this trouble right off the bat. It's probably something simple. Don't get discouraged.
Was the thermostat replaced with the engine flush??????
I would think that overheating due to
loss of coolant circulation would either require both of the dual thermostats to be stuck closed or plugged up with something, OR the coolant filter to be plugged up with junk knocked loose by the flushing procedure.
Did they change the coolant filter after the radiator flush?
Will the coolant filter automatically bypass if it gets plugged up? I don't know...
The water filter is a bypass filter, you could plug it off and the cooling system would still work fine except for removal of contaminants.
There is also a valve on the coolant filter to shut off flow during filter change. Wasn't there something about returning to the full open position after filter change. Don't recall if it bypassed in closed position.
Scott
Being able to place your hand in various places and judge the heat flow is a valuable skill. But, the coolant overflow tank is not part of the circulation and should not be hot. If the coolant overflow tank is hot, then you have other problems.
It may be time to check for a collapsed hose and replace the thermostat(s).
With the valves closed no coolant gets to the filter. Opening again would put the filter back in operation.
Thanks for the words of encouragement. I knew when I purchased an older coach there would be some maintenance fun. Fortunately our Rig worked perfectly on our most recent vacation. Given that it's at it's birthplace, I would hope they can quickly rectify the situation.
I just had transmission fluid change, new ladders, slide bladder replacement, several aquahot leaks fixed. When I first picked it up we got new tires, air bags and an airforce one.
Next is windshields, captins chairs, and side windows fix. I have 15 years until I retire, I figure if I start now it will be ready to go by then... I might even be able to talk my wife into a paint job in Mexico. :D
This could explain it in 20 miles.
What color are you having your wife painted?
Is she getting stripes or swirls????????? :o
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Larry
Now that the Labor Day weekend is pretty much finished, I hope that ITguy will let us know if there was any engine damage from the high temperature running. Also what was the root cause.
All of the electronic engines should be protected from overheating damage with the computer automatically going into shutdown if the temp gets too high.
The GVs have the steering wheel rim in the way of the warning lights, at least on our coach with my height. When we lost a hydraulic belt, my view of the warning light was blocked so the first indication of a problem was when the engine went to 50 percent power and then shut off. If pulling a load and the belt comes off, the temperature will soar in just seconds so tough to catch it on the gauge.
Pierce
"If pulling a load and the belt comes off, the temperature will soar in just seconds so tough to catch it on the gauge."
Another good reason to use VMSpc. You can set an audible alarm for temp. and other gauges.
Every engine design reacts to being operated at high temperatures differently. Historically there have been engines that seemed bullet proof and those that reacted to a warm day with "I think I need to see a mechanic." I fear that the new computer protected engines fall into the latter category.
Since she is a VERY patriotic Air Force brat, maybe we get her and the coach matching Thunderbird paint...
I've thought about building it on an old laptop I have but honestly the ScanguageD I picked up open box for $60 can pull a lot of the same data, although not as pretty... one of these days I may pick up a cable from silver leaf.
FWIW When quoting previous text, begin your text after the "[/quote]"
That being said, Welcome! This Forum has been our go-to source for information and conversation.
Yes they do. The CAT 3208, Cummins 5.9 used in Foretravels are parent bore engines with no liners. They can be bored or bored with liners pressed in. Labor intensive. These engines will tolerate some overheating without damage.
Dry liner engines have a steel liner pressed in so it may be removed and another pressed in. Still a bit labor intensive as the liner after installation, sticks up above the deck of the block slightly and has to be milled down flat with the block. These engines will also tolerate some overheating without damage.
Wet liner engines are made so the owner/operator can change out the liners in a barn if necessary. The steel liners are inserted in the bore with shims at the bottom and then checked with a dial indicator to make sure they meet height specifications at the top of the block. Only then are the sleeves removed, seals installed and the sleeves re-installed. While not needing special equipment other than a few normal garage tools, it's still takes time to do correctly. Because of the seals at the top and bottom of the sleeves, these engines don't tolerate overheating as well. The effects of overheating may not be immediately apparent but a continued pattern of high temperatures may cause seal failure and a coolant/oil mix resulting in a $30K shop bill. 8.3 and larger Cummins, Detroit 2-cycles as well as some CATs are wet sleeve engines.
The term "throwaway engine" is only used where the cost of labor to overhaul is so high that it's cheaper to buy a new one. Unless the block is warped from overheating or a rod has gone through the side of the block, all engines can be successfully overhauled. It's just the price that determines the choice.
While it's difficult to run a diesel too hard, they can be abused with high EGTs, shutting down with high oil temperature, extended idling and overheating. This is why some engines greatly exceed the B-50 life while others need rebuilding well before they should.
Pierce
Diagnosis is I need to replace the hydroloic pump..
If this came on suddenly,post service. I would also check the T stats. and overall for air pockets.
Getting hot in that short amount of time is a symptom of a stuck T stat. Having the radiator with hot and cool spots is also a sign of poor coolant flow.,not poor fan air flow.
Good chance they are covering their but and trying to make a little more while they fix the T stat . IMHO.
So picked up the coach from Nac, made it to Mt. Enterprise and had a thermal shutdown.. this is fun.... engine fluids light this time... but there is coolent...
Letting it cool down and taking her back.
Not good. Was curious how they ts Hydraulic pump issue Scott
How many miles is Mr. Enterprise from Nac? Are your fans working? High speed fans? Outside temp? Does it run cooler at lower speeds? Will it cool down at idle? Assuming the pump belt tight and tensioner working OK. Transmission temp OK?
Pierce
Mt Enterprise is less than 22 miles from Nacogdoches. With judicious stopping/cooling down, one drive that with NO cooling fan.
Pump is gear driven, no belt on ISM
Scott
There is a major cold front coming across Texas. Air Temps will drop with high winds expected (gusts 45).
I just looked. Just west of Dallas currently.
How about products of combustion in the cooling system? Did they check that?
And our coach won't make 2 miles when the belt breaks for the fans.
Pierce
If the belts were changed , there is a remote chance that one set was installed so that something runs backwards . Maybe the water pump? It happens on cars , not often but the serpentine belts can be confusing if you dont take a pic or have a map of the routing .
It's like a Detroit 2 cycle, it's internally driven so no belts. That is what I originally thought.
Pierce
Fans appear to be working... I noticed it hit operating temp and then just kept climbing. Down shifted, ran high RPM, which cooled me down in the SD mountains, no affect. Pulled over an idled, lowered temp to around 209f from 220... Turned around to head back, it climbed to 230ish and shut down. I did get an engine coolant light flash this time, but the system had no leaks and was full of coolent... I pulled over and let it set for about an hour.... It stayed a cool 180f all the way back... Strangest thing. I left with FT because I did not have confidence I could make it back to Dallas.
Have not heard back from them yet, will call tomorrow.
I think the fan controller, which was replaced has a high/low mode, maybe it did not kick into high? If this was a Chevy I'd replace the thermostat. High temps, plenty of coolant, fans running....
1. Still has air in the system?
2. Fan's spinning but not fast enough, or high mode did not kick in?
3. blockage in the coolant system?
4. Thermostat? Did not spring under high temps, after shutdown heat soak maybe took it over 240, the thermostat popped finally and now it's cooling?
Not familiar enough with the ISM yet... mystery to me.
Excuse the dust, we had hail damage, so went straight to the repair facility...
Even low speed on the fans should cool it down at idle and slow speeds.
Was the transmission temperature normal?
Thermostat sticking would be a suspect. Possible air in system. I'm not familiar with any air bleed at the highest point in the Cummins coolin- system. Some cars have them.
Other possibility would be a leaking head gasket or failed wet sleeve seal/O-ring. A products of ccmbustion checker can quickly detect any in the cooling system. Any diesel shop should be able to test the coolant. Amazon.com: Block Tester BT-700 Combustion Leak Test Kit in Hard Case - Made... (https://www.amazon.com/Block-Tester-BT-700-Combustion-Leak/dp/B01N1NA22J/ref=pd_lpo_263_t_0/134-6134634-7264755?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B01N1NA22J&pd_rd_r=913c9940-d45a-4712-bf07-4dfe7a9fda30&pd_rd_w=yaEpy&pd_rd_wg=YivPV&pf_rd_p=7b36d496-f366-4631-94d3-61b87b52511b&pf_rd_r=D23ZHQZNGYQE29ZSPBJD&psc=1&refRID=D23ZHQZNGYQE29ZSPBJD)
Shop should be able to shoot cooling system/radiator with IR gun.
Smart not to go on to Dallas.
Pierce
Just looked at your last photo. Is that the normal transmission temperature with the temp below 150? Might pull the tranny dip stick and check color and smell.
What does your engine oil look like? Dark black would be usual. Grey would indicate coolant in the oil.
Pierce
I wanted to close the loop, we finally solved the overheat issue.
We had a series of component failures, which made this difficult to troubleshoot:
One of the first things tested was the hydraulic fans which tested good.
So then fan controller was replaced, and later the hydraulic pump.
We decided that the primary Hydraulic Fan failed after these repairs, which is why the issue became inconsistent, as it was hit or miss that it would hit the higher RPM speeds needed for second stage cooling.
The part sat on a container ship for many months do to the current state of shipping you can see on the news, which is why it's taken so long... but I'm happy to say I drove it from Nac to Dallas and it was rock solid.
I want to think Alan, James and the others at Foretravel that stayed with the issue. They don't have to service 20 year old coaches, so I can't say enough how thankful I am for their tenacity.
We had tile and a new Microwave put in while we were at it. Can't wait for the next trip!
Thanks for coming back and explaining the problem. Could help someone else down the road.