I am a prespecative buyer. Looking hard at the Foretravels. I would want a unit in the 34-36' range. Do this size need two acs?
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What you "NEED" and what you "WANT" are sometimes two very different things. As far as I know every Foretravel coach has been fitted with a minimum of 2 roof air units, at least since the early 90's. Do they all NEED 2 (or more) units? Matter of opinion. Depends a lot on when/where the owners habitually camp. Summer or Winter? Mountains or desert? Do they mostly dry camp, or always stay in full hookup parks?
Having 2 units gives you 2 "zones" that can be (somewhat) independently controlled. Shut the bedroom or bathroom door to keep one end cold and the other end warmer, or vice versa. Having 2 units means you have a backup if one fails. Coaches with ducted A/Cs can run the unit at the end where you are not sitting and pipe the cold air to where you are sitting. Helps keep the noise level down.
Link below to Foretravel specs where you can compare different models/years:
Foretravel Specifications, Floor Plans, Photos & Brochures (https://wiki.foreforums.com/doku.php?id=through_the_years:specs)
Main reason for my question is because first upgrade will be mini split/s. I was thinking with 34-36 i could get by with 1 unit. Even if it is an 18k.
I feel like my comments above can apply regardless of what type A/C unit is installed.
Some owners, in some situations, could get along just fine on one unit. Other owners would find that limitation unbearable.
And, a lot of the answer will depend on the climate where you intend to use the coach.
Mountains out of Denver are VERY different than the temperatures and humidity on the Gulf Coast.
We just returned from two months in Angel Fire NM. Even the million dollar homes there do not have A/C. In the Houston area, everyone has BIG air conditioners!
Our 2001 36 ft has two AC units and ducting that runs front to rear. Most often if we need to we will run the rear AC only. Accolair comes out the outlets in the ceiling ducts. We have a ceiling fan in the BR and rarely run any AC at night. If it is really hot we can run both.
I would not be in south Texas/Louisana in summer unless visiting my daughter. I ould go to cooler less humid areas.
We have a 5 head Mitsubishi mini split upstairs at home and we absolutely love it. To adapt that for the coach would be far too much engineering and would use space very inefficiently it seems to me. With the units that come on it you only use up roof space and like was pointed out you have a backup unit in case of failure. We love our mini splits at home but I wouldn't consider them for the coach.
I'm not sure what is available for 110 but that is another consideration.
I have removed both rv acs on current 5thr and installed two mini splits. Don't see where it would be any different on a Foretravel. Also are all posts always have to be approved before showing up?
We live in south eastern Georgia in a 36' GrandVilla, and when the temperature goes above 90F both ACs are on. Right now with daytime temperatures in the high 80s, and the morning low in the mid to low 70s, the front airconditioner stays on all night mainly as a dehumidifier.
Yes, you need two air conditioners.
why would anyone choose 1 ac when they all come with a minimum of 2 in the length you are looking for.
Because I will do away with both of them. Make more room for solar. Put mini split system in. I see from these posts that these units are harder to cool than my 5ther. That is disappointing. At 90 degrees I can cool my 40' unit with 1 12k mini split. Above that it takes two. It will also take a while for my post to show up.
Think that is just when you initially join.
Like everyone, we have two units in our 34'. I would like to add one more over the driver for those hot long road trips in the summer.
After living all my life on the Gulf coast, I will never own anything I get inside of and sleep or drive without an AC.
Mini splits do cool better than rv units. Discovered that with my unit. Had 2 15k dometic on it. In south Texas it was lacking. 2 12k mini splits will freeze us.
Where would you mount the mini condenser?
On my 5ther it is at the back on a frame I built. I would like to put it in a storage bay if possible. Don't have a unit to check out in my possesion. The interior unit is usually the question. I had several areas in living room on my 5ther but not the bedroom. Had to use a cassette ceiling unit in there. That is very doeable with a wood roof but Foretravel I understand are aluminum. Still doeable but more trouble. I am a welder though. Cassette are physcialy larger than rv acs so opening has to be bigger. You can tell me how much room is above cabinets if any. The mini split is very quiet and sips electricity.
The storage bays would not have enough air flow for a condenser. the compartment opposite the start batteries would be to only place to not have to install it on the outside of the coach but even then lots of heat in that area unless muffler is removed. Also you know that the condensate has to go somewhere outside of the evap coil. I have a 18k btu. in my bedroom and yes they work great. It is a 230 volt as 12K was the biggest on 120 volt. Depending on the year coach you would have ducted or non ducted registers. Good luck and post if you find a way to make a mini work.
I have not seen a condensor in the storage of a motorhome but have on bus conversions. I would have to have door open or put a screen in it. The back would have to have air flow. Maybe open up the back? Again I might just put it on rear. The U units look to have plenty of room for it. The roof is asume is 6-7" thick. That is typical. A cassette will set up about 7 inches. Run solar panels at 7 inches height. Cover entire roof. If generator produces split phase it would run the 240v units. If not I would have to add an autotransformer. But one can run mini splits off of solar and battery only. Not rv acs. But if I can find room inside for a wall unit I will use 48v mini splits. Then just keep coach 120v.
The 97 and up ducted roof a/c's allow a lot of flexibility and backup. The 97's and 98's and maybe 99's have heat strips not heat pumps. Backup for the coaches heating systems.
I understand with board and thermostat changes the coaches can be can be made to be a dual setback HVAC.
Plus the Magnum system can be fully integrated into their inverter/charger system including auto gen start from various adjustable system demands.
Heat, cool, battery charge all automated.
Adding a now industry standard battery bank auto combiner covers the normally separate chassis batteries charging in storage.
Repairing a mini split system would be seen to be more difficult than a rv roof air.
Versus the time and effort needed to retro a mini split into a coach body shell not made for it will not be easy.
A small series of Foretravel's without slide outs in the mid 90's had non roof air units in their bays as did a group of Winnebago coaches.
The current solar panels better output per size seems to allow at least 2k watts from a roof.
As I told a number of Foretravel customers long ago who wanted to change their ordered new coaches diffently from normal production "why don't you try the coach the way Foretravel built it?"
Giving up and opening a compartment for the condenser would seem to be the main obstacle. Plus the condenser would be next to the heat from the road surfaces...
Like I posted here a fully integrated HVAC/solar/ auto gen start would seem to be a doable for sure system mod?
The Magnum integrated system seemingly has the ability to prioritize the choices of heating for example. Could be set to turn on the roof airs heat pumps or heat strips if 110 available or the furnaces or aqua hot if no 110. Stuff like that.
Enough battery and solar to run a mini split reliably will be very expensive and with enough cloud cover the gen may need to be run.
Bob, I need some clarification from you if you would. You say heat strip and heat pump, my confusion comes from the term heat pump. My understanding of a heat pump, certainly where we live is static fixture on on a house that has pipes and heaven knows what else buried at least 100ft in the ground. This set up takes advantage of the constant ground temperature of 52 degrees.
Our coach has the ac/heat overhead.
There are a lot of owners running mini splits and solar. They are all 5th wheel though. On cloudy days they supplement with generator. As far as working on them, they are simple. I work on them. They are actually serviceable unlike rv acs. Capistor and fan motor about all you going to do to a rv ac. After that throw away. The condensor may fit on drivers side up front. Talking with a fellow Foretravel owner he thinks it will if muffler isn't real big. He's is small. Also those rv units are noisy and can't be run on solar. Well for not long anyway. Ours pull on average of 450 watts each. we have two. Also there are two rv manufacturers now putting mini splits in there units from the factory.
The heat pump he refers to is the newer A/C's have a reversing valve that makes the evaporator coil the condensing coil and produces heat out the same register as the A/C
What you describe (ground source) is one specific
type of the more general
category "heat pump". See link below:
Heat pump - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump)
Also I don't want aquahot. Too much maintance and cost.
Craneman, thank you, that explanation has wiped the sleep from my eyes, Chuck I'm sorry to say the Wikipedia only seemed to confuse me even more.
We have a conventional (air source) heat pump in our house. Here's the way our air conditioner repair man explained it to me:
"A heat pump moves heat from one place to another. It can move heat from inside a house to the outside, thereby cooling the house. They work very well for cooling. It can also move heat from outside a house to the inside, thereby heating it. They
don't work very well as
heaters below 40 degrees F (outside temp)."
Our residential heat pump has auxiliary resistance heat coils that kick in to supplement the heat pump if it gets really cold outside (not often).
I have made room for the mini split condenser behind the grille after removing the dash ac.
The cool box may fit under the couch not sure tho
The aqua hot puts out warm not dried air.
STD furnace's have the fan come in first when signaled to prevent explosions if the unit had an internal gas leak.
So the temp drops. Then the flame comes on. Then when the set point is reached the the flame cuts off but the fan continues running to avoid overheating the heaters box. So the temp goes up even more.
Roughly 5 degree swings. Dried out air. 2 zones. Limited tank heating.
Aqua hot, 3 zones plus engine in and out for a emergency heating source and to preheat the engine for severe winter use.
Separate twin heat exchangers with a separate thermostat for the tank bays and plumbing.
2 1/2 degree temp swings vs 5 degrees.
Propane is noisy. Aquahot very quiet,
The Agua hot units also have two front outlets for heat under the counter and sofa and a third in dash exchanger that I understand can be switched on and off and maybe can be adjusted to output it's heat from the various dash outputs?
The idea is that a Foretravel can be a true 4 season coach without mods if aqua hot equipped. All coaches can be modded to work in winter with more work.
The aqua hot adds 55 degrees temp increase over the water tanks water temp.
So the dual exchangers heat the tanks water enough to allow hot showers if you run from the tank versus external water.
Aqua hot will allow continuous 1.5 gpm 55 degree temp rise hot water and in temps down to,the low 50's will heat the coach and the water tank from its 110 volt heating element. No fuel consumed.
As we are sort of preppers in shaky town(la) the limited propane tank capacity if used for refer and heating and the cook top is a consideration.
Versus heating the coach and it's water system from a 19 gallon tank?
The diesel gen consumes .44 gph under load. 192 gallon supply.
Like I said. Many considerations to take into account.
The temps swings and noise I experienced for many years long ago in the use of many rv's were a large negative for any coaches consideration. When we saw the Barks traded in U320 we were very happy. Aquahot. M11. WTBI floorplan and the unicorn of all times a mid entry coach. Done
And how much time and money have you spent on keeping it running. Not being critical but there are countless posts on here about problems.
We have had problems with our Aquahot from time to time. We have had problems with our electric window shades from time to time. We have had problems with electric awnings from time to time. Our refrigerator has given problems. We have a big house with a pool and those give problems from time to time.
That said, the good days more than make up for the problems IMHO and I don't want to be without any of those things. For some it's not worth the trouble and I say more power to you.
Had the burner jet replaced and the chamber cleaned and two relays replaced and the coil igniter replaced when we got our coach 8 years ago.
Nothing since. Zero.
electric window shades!!! Would not have it. Propane fridge, get rid of it for a residental, Now i like electric awning but it not very much trouble. Just replaced controller on mine and it is a 2003. Not saying Aquahot not nice. But at retirement don't need a money pit.
Residential consumes 175 amp hours a day. Needs 4 batteries if not more. Thousands of dollars of solar.
Made to be in a non moving people temperature space. Vents heat to inside. Not out.
You are seeming to want a park model somewhat.
Some here like a dry camp non gen running rv at times.
Painted coaches get hotter. More ac use. More gen run time.
Or travel power pedestal to power pedestal.
All campgrounds are full anymore. Better setup a dry camp capable coach.
When we were younger and more hot blooded the propane temp swings interfered with our recreation noticeably. Too hot. Uncover. Sweat. Cold. Blankets needed too much...
Probably not a consideration for most here but a more even temp has numerous advantages.
Oh the propane furnaces smell out side as does the water heater in use. Had the wind blow the smells back into the coach. Gag.
All air conditioners are heat pumps. They pump heat from where it is to where you want it to be. As Craneman said, some are plumed to reverse the flow of heat, from inside to outside, to outside to inside. Some air conditioners also have a built in electric heating element often referred to as a heat strip.
The type of heat pump system that you're describing is more of a hobby than an invisible heating system.
Been full time for over 10 years. Never smeeled the propane furance. Proven fact a propane fridge uses a lot of electricty or burn propane. Newer residential fridges are not much more if any. And I had a propane fridge and said I would never have another. Also we will be dry camping with it.
Propane refers use 12 volt for their brain and lighter. Tiny power versus 175 amp hours
Just need a lot of batteries and solar and the refer installed.
Enjoy your search
I already have 21k of lithium. and lots of people use residential with solar. Also propane fridge uses 12v + propane or either 12+ plus 120v. It is not a free lunch.
The type of heat pump system that you're describing is more of a hobby than an invisible heating system.
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Dear sir, I haven't a clue as to what you are talking about, a hobby? And where did the " invisible heating system" comment come from ?
So one more time, thank you Craneman for the Clear explanation.
I think the system you are referring to, using underground piping with fluids running through it, gaining heat/cooling from the stable temperature of the earth, is called Geothermal rather than a heat pump. Otherwise I agree with what you said.
Granted, I could have misunderstood the system you were talking about
Edit: A geothermal system still uses a heat pump, the difference generally is that the heat is gained or lost via subsurface. piping rather than outside air. The inside part would be very similar.