I am having to replace my house batteries, and as I understand it, I am looking for 8D batteries-3 of them. OReily's has a Super Start 8D-2 battery for $219 each. 1100 CCA. Will these work for me? Don't care about dry camping.
Thanks, Mike
They will work, but are not their best choice. Those are wet cell, not deep cycle and require a lot of maintenance and corrode the area with acid fumes. They have an AGM which is much better, see posts on them, which I will probably replace mine with when they fail.
We replaced our 2 with 2 batterys from Lithium pros in Indiana,$800 each but 10 year warr and 27 lbs.
You might want to check out installing 2 or 4 - L16 - 6 volts instead of the 3 8D batteries.
Yuo, better choice, https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b/fleet---heavy-duty-5000/agriculture-hd-parts---accessories-19818/fleet---heavy-duty-20088/battery---electrical-20106/agriculture-hd---batteries---accessories-19802/fbaa0ce66430/super-start-fleet-heavy-duty-battery-group-size-8d/agm8d/4742645
These only have a 1 year warranty.
Four Full River L16 sized DC400-6 will have 830 amp hrs capacity and at least a 2 year warranty (up to seven in some cases) fit in less space one one level and weight less than 3 8Ds on two levels,
DC400-6 | Fullriver Battery (https://www.fullriverbattery.com/product/dc400-6/)
The DC335-6 have the same footprint but are shorter. 4 gives you 670 anp hrs capacity,
DC335-6 | Fullriver Battery (https://www.fullriverbattery.com/product/dc335-6/)
REALITY: If no dry camping, you don't need the amp-hrs of THREE 8D batteries.
The capacity of two is ample. Whether in 8D or similar amp-hr capacity in golf cart/6 VDC deep cycle batteries.
Would suggest considering that amp-hr capacity in AGM golf cart/6 VDC batteries!
Your battery compartment may not be vented well enough for flooded cell batteries.
Cycle life is shorter with 2 batteries, you would tend to use a higher percentage each day than if you had three.
Why do Ineed deep cycle batteries? Will the Oriely battery work?
Mike
Not like Foretravel intended house batteries to work. You need deep cycle batteries, either conventional lead acid deep cycle or AGM deep cycle. Your O'Reily batteries won't last nearly as long. Spend a few more $$. Read up on it!
Pierce
Well, actually it more than a few dollars: More like twice as much. Not really looking for more than 3 years or so of service. What I need is my electrical system to be functioning properly.
Mike
If you are not going to dry camp then just buy 2 of the AGM's as Brett suggested. The start batteries for $219. are not made to do anything but start an engine.
And they create a lot of corrosion.
Ok, I'm now looking at the 8D agm, but it still mentions 1400 CCA, and not deep cycle. Does it have to be a deep cycle battery, or will the 8D agm work?
Thanks, Mike
Get the deep cycle version. Just because it says 1400 CCA, does not mean it's intended for house battery use. Sounds like you are looking for validation for using a non-deep cycle battery in a application it's not designed for.
It's your $$ but my opinion that you are considering the wrong type battery.
Pierce
This is the one you need.
https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b/fleet---heavy-duty-5000/marine---boat-30733/deep-cycle---marine-batteries-17354/409e0a64fe51/super-start-fleet-heavy-duty-battery-group-size-8d/agm8dt975/4742647?q=deep+cycle+8d&pos=5
That is the one I'm looking at, but there is no mention of it being deep cycle. And yes you are right about trying to justify my reasoning and go the el cheapo route. There is quite a bit of difference in prices. If these would work, I could go for two instead of the 3 battery setup that I have now.
Mike
Question #1 Starting, Lighting and Ignition batteries, which is what you have when you say that it can deliver current at the rate of 1400 amperes, do not last long in a charge - discharge - charge use.
Question #2 Yes, the O'Reilly's battery will work.
Will you be happy? Maybe, maybe not. You can spend less money going in, yet have a higher lifetime cost because of short battery life.
The others here know better than I whether you need one or two BCI Group 8D batteries to safely start you engine. And those need to be SLI style batteries, and they will last doing what they are intended to to unless you have a habit of leaving the headlights on.
For the house battery you could install a group 27 AGM battery and be content as long as you never use that battery for power, always using shore power or your generator set. FWIW the off-brand dealer from whom we purchased our home, sent my partner off with a group 24 to start the engine and a slightly larger AGM for the house. For the time being I have installed a pair of 4D flooded cell batteries with plans to replace them before serious travel with three 8D. I am lusting after Trojan for the house batteries because with their ability to deliver 100A of current they are true deep cycle batteries. But for now, the house runs off shore power so house battery needs apply only to the occasional day trip and power outages.
There is no return on investment for an RV. Owning and operating an RV is an expense. At least an RV won't sink if you choose to ignore it for a while.
Here is the question Mike wants an answer to, "...but there is no mention of it being deep cycle." MIKE LOOK HERE AT ATTACHMENT>>>DEEP CYCLE
This is from the Link above.
As a former resident of the burn ward do not put flooded cell batteries in a non vented location.
Your nickel
Did they have agm batteries back in 1997? What did they use back then?
Mike
AGM batteris were in use starting in 1980 so have been around a long time. Your coach had GEL batteries in 1997. See Foretravel specs at: Media [ForeForums Foretravel Motorcoach Wiki] (http://wiki.foreforums.com/doku.php?id=through_the_years:1997)
Pierce
Well, thanks for that info.
Mike
Every uni made comes/came with mk gels to this day.
After 15 years of using lead/acid golf cart batteries for the house, I am looking at my options.
Being a full time off the grid type RV'er with solar power makes a difference compared to someone who does no dry camping.
I have a battery watering system which makes watering the batteries relatively easy but it still needs to be done regularly and as I get older I am debating whether to spend the extra $400 for the AGMs that craneman pointed to.
Then, of course, now there's lithium. I'd love to make that switch but I think they are out of my price range.
I keep hoping that the lithium price will come down before my Lifeline AGM's die. Seems like they are almost "fair traded" all the companies keep the price close to each other. Usually when technology develops, a few years later the price drops. I paid $1,100.00 for a beta video recorder when they first came out then paid the same amount of money a year later for a VHS recorder and tapes were $11.00 on sale. The lithium have been out long enough to at least drop down some.
Chuck,
Watch the economy. When it goes further south, the price of the batteries will come way down along with other stuff. Bad time to buy a house.
Our AGMs are 12 years old and seem to be working fine but there will be a time when they don't. I can leave the new inverter on a long time without dropping the voltage while it's at idle.
Musk's big mass production factory is set to open in 2021 and expect the prices will drop then.
Pierce
I *think* the lithium prices are staying high because the technology is improving so darn fast, it requires continuous investment in new manufacturing machinery.
Gels in my mind are a plus in value if you sell the coach. I personally would deduct from any potential buy the cost to replace non oem grade equipment installed in the coach.
Minus for non Michelin tires. Non gel batteries.
In my coach selling days the idea that a prospective buyer looks at something non oem and shakes his or her head cost way more than the cost of the oem parts.
Just me. Sold hundreds of coaches.
Windshield glass. Wiper blades. Strong water pressure. Tested verifiable batteries. Weight slip. Tires set to match the weight.
A plus for AGM over GELs and a big plus for non-Michelin coaches unless you want to collect from your insurance company.
BatteryStuff Articles | Compare and Contrast Between AGM and Gel Batteries (https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/articles/battery-articles/gel-vs-agm.html)
Pierce
Look at David S. post on his 1200 amps lithium battery bank. If he can put one together with batteries costing $4,600.00 you would think mass producing would be less than $11,000 for the same amps that it would cost to buy from the current lithium sellers.
Agm's require temp controlled charging and need a full recharge each cycle. Cannot be equalized to restore capacity loss from short cycling. Other than lifelines.
1/2 the cycle life of gels normally
Come on. Our 6 Genisis XE70-0771-6001 12 Volt 68 a mp hour batteries Genesis XE70-0771-6001 12 Volt 68 Amp Hour Battery (https://www.onesourcebatteries.com/gexe0712vo70.html) are fine at 12 years and the manufactures states, "DO NOT EQUALIZE." A GEL battery would have to last more than 24 years in your above post. I either leave the solar on to charge or just plug into shore power to charge them. Regular battery charger, nothing special. I even use a jumper to keep the house and engine batteries at the same voltage. AGM and conventional Duralast 31 series maintenance free start batteries. Year after year, they keep on ticking.
And they were in a bankruptcy sales for $35 instead of $425 so the cost was $210 for all six. Craigslist has the deals if you just watch it. And who is retired that does not have the time to watch the listing? I only had to drive 60 miles to Sacramento to pick them up.
Pierce
20 years ago GEL batteries had an edge in cycle count over AGMs. No longer for the better AGMs. In order to maintain full capacity AGMs and GELS should be recharged to 100% SOC every cycle. 20 year old information and thinking locks you into the relative dark ages. Do your own homework, learn for yourself.
LiFePO4 batteries are an option to consider. If you have 3 new 8D batteries and charge them to 100% at 20% or less of capacity and never (rarely) go below 75% SOC you will maintain capacity and get about 2100 cycles out of the upper end lines of batteries. They might cost $2,000. Maybe more. 25% of approx 720 amp hr capacity Is 180 amp hrs per day. At 12.5 volts that is about 2250 watts per day, plenty for many LP gas refrigerator users.
If you have 4 Battle Born 100 amp hr batteries with 10 year warranties that 180 amp hrs per day would leave you with 55% SOC. And if you recharge them at 20% of total capacity or less Battle Born expects these batteries to get 5,000 cycles. They consider a 100% to 0% to 100% one cycle. Using only 45% each day could get you over 11,000 days. For virtually all of us that means never buying batteries again. You might be able to do that with 2 BB batteries but your reserves would be small. Battle Born says a 100 amp battery at 0% SOC still has about 20 amp hrs left. They do this because they don't want you do completely deplete the battery, no one does.
Last year on Black Friday you could get Battle Borns for as low as $850. Part of the cost is a hazardous material shipping charge on each battery. If you buy six on a pallet, generally shipping will be free and there is only one hazardous material shipping add on. I bought my 6 GC2 BB at about 22% under retail delivered. Get together with someone else and get a pallet full.
It is just something to consider. 300-400 amp hrs of lithium is plenty for most. They are much easier to charge, SOC does not have to go back to 100% every time, cold weather issues (myths) are easy to overcome. Charge while driving is easily done in a smart way, assuming you ever have to. And they should outlast two sets of AGM batteries.
So $2700 - $3600 for LiFePO4 batteries that will outlast 2 sets of conventional batteries. Give it some thought.
Those who run a lithium battery in a motorcycle think differently. In the wintertime it's recommended practice to turn on the head light for 30 seconds before turning the engine. Turns out it's not only recommended, it's necessary.
With 400 Ah for our AGMs, we never come close to flattening them. But are all LED including the TVs. The old Taytronics dropped the voltage just turning it on but the new tiny sine wave inverter keeps the voltage about the same at idle. A coach today should only use a fraction of what they did 20 years ago.
If you can't wait for a deal and dry camp most of the time, spending $3000 or so on lithiums is probably all you will ever need for the coach. If you have a newer model, it's a fairly small percentage of the total value. For our $20,000 coach, it would be 15% so I found another option. But always looking for a super deal that will make me go that direction.
Pierce
If you upgrade to lithium, what other items need to be upgraded?? Inverter, control, alternator, wiring.??
I'd love to change out my Lifelines, but don't want to open a can of worms.
Some inverters have a lithium profile, you need that ability then you need a BAM that works on lithium you could bypass the alternator charging if you don't want to spend for a battery to battery charger. The wires would be the same I believe.
I am sure some of the lithium members will give better information.
Glenn,
In general, LiFePO4 batteries will be a drop in replacement. Terminals on battery cables might be different, maybe not. Wire sizes are probably OK. LiFePO4 batteries should be charged at 20% or less of maximum capacity. So for 400 amp hrs charging should not be more than 80 amps. Most newer inverter/chargers can be set for maximum charge. Most newer inverter/chargers can be set for a LiFePO4 profile. Or the details of the charge profile can be set for LiFePO4 batteries.
Your alternator is OK. There are a variety of means to charge while driving. Some are just on/off devices to limit the charge. Others are more sophisticated and take power from the alternator and charge the LiFePO4 in a multi step charge profile. These Battery to Battery chargers are available in many sizes. With solar you may not need to charge the batteries using the alternator at all.
You may have to change the battery rack to fit the much lighter weight LiFePO4 batteries and provide a means for positive hold downs.
While you are doing this you might want to consider wiring the batteries to a bus bar and add a switch to disconnect the batteries. A fuse at the battery end is prudent.
When you are done your system will be improved from original.
the anecdotal info from a user is great. IF you have the ability to fully recharge after every use and keep the percentage withdrawn from the batteries down as much as possible then you should have a long life on any batteries.
That doesn't really apply to lithium's like it does to Gel, AGM or conventional wet cell batteries. Lithium's don't care about being left in a partial state of charge, and they can be discharged much further without any side effects. They relieve the burden of making sure you top off every day for the sake of protecting the batteries, which is a big advantage.
https://youtu.be/2BsSWCc66_w
The above link. Has a discount for "Lion" lithium batteries 15%. The info he gives. Shadows what all are saying.
Mark
I appreciate the fellows input in the above video. It was done two years ago, in 2018. In his class C he only wanted to use room for 2 Battle Born batteries of the type he selected. Two years later, in this video posted Aug 2020, he replaces the two Battle Born 100ah with Lion Energy 1300 units.
https://youtu.be/eCulLknfhTQ
This might move me over the fence.
https://www.costco.com/lion-energy-safari-ut1300-2-pack.product.100663833.html
So, for $2800 plus tax, you get 420 Ah and they only weigh 23 lbs each. Not bad at all. But, that's what our ML320 cost within $100.
Our 6 weight about 60 lbs each so 360 lbs for ours compared to less than 100 lbs for 4 Lions.
Pierce
$2,800.00 and subtract the 1,365.00 that I would buy the 3 AGMS from O'reilly's and the total is $1,435.00 for less weight and more usable amps. As I said it MIGHT put me over the fence. Only have 4 days to ***t or get off the **t
Good point, and thank you Craneman for posting the Costco sale, 2 Lion 1300's for $1,399.99, special event ending Sept. 29, 2020. Maybe it will be continued. Costco has sometimes, in the past, picked up products from companies that participate in Special Event roadshows, such as those by Precor.
I have seen Battle Born selling "blems" for $850 in a once a year sale. Nothing like competition for the consumer.
The Lion Energy batteries are a good value. Though I think it is important to point out the difference between these, and Battle Born batteries. I believe Will Prowse, does a reasonable job pointing out the differences, construction, UL listing, etc. Only you will know your needs, desires, and budget,
https://youtu.be/KRe9TWEEoI0
Well Jack, thanks for that info. I am off the fence and back to waiting for my Lifelines to fail and Battle Born's to come down. If they don't I will go to O'Reilly's when the time comes.
I've been involved in 3 separate purchases of Battleborns for a total of 6 batteries and I've found that they can always come up with "blems" for $850 when requested. They're supposed to have some sort of cosmetic issues like extra glue at the seams but I've never found anything that I would consider a blemish on any of them. My assumption is that they pull them off the shelf and apply the $100 discount at will, using the "blem" code as a justification that is not available to their retail sellers. At least one popular retailer that I spoke with agrees, and is not particularly happy about it but can't match the deal.
Lion batteries weigh 23 lbs vs BB 29-30 lbs. Part of the difference is BB has more reserve calacity after 100 amp hrs are used and they are just heavier duty. Great built in BMS too. LION says charge at 100 amps max. On a 105 amphr battery that will likely reduce the 3500 cycles significntly. BB does suggest that 20% of capacity charge will increase cycles to about 5000. And they do want you to go back to 100% SOC when you can to allow the BMS to balance the individual cells to maximize the capacity of the battery as a whole.
This is a long term choice. Choose wisely.
Temp restrictions caused me personally to not buy li-ion when we bought our gels.
River hot is a use for us. Some winter maybe.
I liked musks battery day yesterday. Watched it on my iPad in a hospital parking lot while my DW was getting treatment and I started hearing car horns honking from random cars in the lot. What the heck?
Turned out they were also watching Tesla's battery day and honking when he mentioned his companies breakthrough new technologies.
Nerds. I started honking also.
3 years to a $25k autonomous electric car.....
Watch the video. Bigger fatter taller cells. 80mm tall.
Tesla dropped their price on powerwalls reportedly 27%. Be tempted to buy 2 for our home and receive the rebates then have one fall off and end up on a compartment floor. Temp controlled internally
I went with silicone batteries because of the cold and that they can charge faster. So far they have been fine but it is this winter that I
will really test them.
12V 170Ah LiFePO4 Power Block (PRE-ORDER) - BigBattery.com (https://bigbattery.com/product/12v-lifepo4-power-block/)
I received this in a email yesterday there is also a 10 pct additional discount available. Maybe of interest.? Opinions?
Remember if you are a member of dieselrvclub.org. that there is a discount for purchases like batteries!!!. Also they offer military and their club discount. If you can stack is unkown.
When BB LiFePO4 batteries are cold they should only be charged at a low charge rate. Once they begin to charge and discharge they get warmer by use and can be charger at higher rates. What is the temperature at the battery terminal? Their own temperature sensor is internal.
I have each of my 6 BB LiFePO4 batteries heated with thin film heating pads, 18 watts on low and 36 watts on high, powered by the batteries themselves. These increase the battery temperature by 30 - 40 degrees, enough to start charging an otherwise cold battery at outside temperatures below zero. As soon as the batteries are being charged and are in use the heaters are turned off even at zero degrees and the batteries in the battery compartment are sufficiently warm by use and the warmth in the basement.
You either avoid solutions to problems you don't understand and do nothing or you solve the problem.
I looked at the connectors that go with the battery pack and don't know how they could transfer the power. Maybe something I don't understand.
Interesting BigBattery option, no warranty information. The anderson cable they sell is only 6 ga wire. Seems really small. And it doesn't appear to say if the dimensions include the Anderson plug or show how it plugs in.
BatteryCables has Anderson connectors with 3/8" ring ends on 1/0 cable. Probably more suitable for connecting to a bus bar. Add $44 plus shipping for each battery.
Anderson SB175 Copper Battery Cable Assembly 1/0 Gauge AWG w lug/terminal/clamp (https://www.batterycablesusa.com/0-gauge-anderson-cable?preSelOpt=752,757&gclid=CjwKCAjw5Kv7BRBSEiwAXGDElZqQNE_viEFRCX-rOYpHkXzr6oGZWjLGUZGia0cDUYcHapBco27h_xoCce4QAvD_BwE)
Worth some more research.
That connector makes more sense. Their address is about a mile away from here and this looks like a new product they are getting into. They mainly refurbish and sell surplus batteries.
Chuck you could be our on the ground man to negotiate a mass discount for the Foretravel bunch?? Delivery to quartzite
"BigBattery offers a 30-day warranty from delivery date on all of our products."
Damaged/Defective/Incorrect Items:
"Should you receive a damaged, defective, or incorrect item, please contact us immediately. Once we receive your request, we will be in contact with you to address and resolve the issue."
I have no problem buying a product from bigbattery.com with only a 30 day warranty. That way I am not paying for others mis using the product, and having to join all buyers paying for the errors of others.
Will Prowse recently pulled a review video of one of their products. Which I believe, may be because he is doing or planning an update, possible of their upcoming product.
What I remember was he praised the new cells used, even did a load and capacity test. He also liked the bms. He did not like the gauge of wire used, or rating of installed breaker, when compared to rated amp draw capacity rating. For those reasons he said he could not reccomend and that he would contact bigbattery.com
I believe he will follow thru on this and do a update of the review for the upcoming product.
I have followed bigbattery.com for several months and they appear to have a good following, and they often sell out quickly of their newly listed inventory. Will Prouse has in the past commented on their integrity in a positive way, and also noted their testing procedures. He especially liked having a supplier here in the states, compared to the almost impossibility to trust or communicate with a supplier in China. With their ties to Will Prouse, I expect to see their products only continue to improve. The big problem I see with China supplied assembly is inconsistent performance in assembly.
30 days? I don't think so. Buy six and hope four are still working after 30 days. Do you feel lucky?
6 ga wire doesn't even show up on the charts for a 175 amp 6 ft round trip. You need 1/0 cables.
Buyer be careful.
Battle born doesn't recommend their lithium for cold cranking. Is this a problem for gen start? For emergency engine start?
200 cca for 30 seconds for each 100 amp battery.
Mine start the gen. It is a pretty easy start especially with 3 or more batteries. I wouldn't use them for start batteries for the big motor. An occasional boost is OK.
A full recharge could be a problem for people like me who are off grid for long periods of time or for those who boondock in places like Quartzsite, especially with the winter solstice coming up.
Right now, I'm looking for 6 volt lead acid golf cart batteries (20 amp hour rate: 215) which Sam's Club has the best deal on but Sam's is out of them and they have no idea when their stock will be replenished.
Here are the data sheets for Lifeline 8D AGM batteries and Trojan 8D GEL batteries and FullRiver 8D AGM batteries.
Lifeline and Trojan batteries with an average 25% discharge will get just over 2000 cycles. FullRiver batteries get about 2200 cycles.
Lifeline and Trojan batteries batteries with an average 50% discharge will get about 1000 cycles. FullRiver batteries get about 1200 cycles.
Cycle life based on depth of discharge is virtually the same for AGM and GEL batteries today. In some cases AGM batteries will outperform GEL batteries for cycle life.
30 or 40 years ago cycle life might have been different but no longer.
I never pay attention to the temp on our AGMs and charge when I can. I don't have a temp sensor on them. Still going strong 12 years later.
A lot of people who dry camp like the L-16 six volt batteries. Bigger than golf cart batteries. I had two in my bus.
Pierce
The gels are best at short cycling as far as I know. Except for lithium of course. Flooded cell and non lifeline agm's not so much
I'm exploring all my options. My question is, our 2001 coach now has agm Lifelines. Should someone choose to install say, 6 Trojan T 105's, should they be concerned about VENTING??? Asking for a friend.
I use 6 GC2 lead acid batteries and have a watering system. My battery compartment has a cover which encloses all the batteries. There is a vent hole in the cover and a pipe that vents any gases out another hole. I'll try to get a photo tomorrow.
Sam's Club sells GC2 batteries which are similar to the T-105's but are priced at 89.95. I got 6 years out of the last 6 batteries I bought and I'm sure I would have gotten at least another year except one battery went bad. I had to take 2 batteries out of service.
Be afraid of flooded cell batteries in a compartment made for sealed batteries
Glenn, in your battery bay with the slide side truss you should be able to get six DC 335-6 Full River batteries. 1005 amp hrs. 616 lbs, about 50 lbs more than 3 8Ds and the fold down upper rack which you won't need. L16s in that space would be ahrd to get in and connect with the limited space.
DC335-6 | Fullriver Battery (https://www.fullriverbattery.com/product/dc335-6/)
Another option.
Here is Aaron's reply to my inquiry yesterday about the heated li ion 8d's
We do plan on releasing a higher capacity battery this year, but do not have a formal release date. I would recommend signing up for our newsletter on our website to get the latest news on when we release new products.
agm's ,other than lifelines, cannot be equalized to restore lost capacity from short cycling.
Desulfurization devices are reported to help over long term although.
Gels and li-ion can take short cycling easier.
I wanted this to be seen. So I thought it would fit in here.
https://youtu.be/RxMIs0PXrBw
There is usually a 10% discount for Big Battery products. They also have some 24V and 48V options. The grey battery is their product in this test. Note: the cold shutoff test.
Mark