Foretravel Owners' Forum

Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: dsd on October 07, 2020, 08:38:11 pm

Title: Gas regulator
Post by: dsd on October 07, 2020, 08:38:11 pm
So could someone give me there opinion on our stove output, our refrigerator does not stay cold on gas, but works fine on ac. I think the regulator is running lower than it should, do , what do you think?
Scott
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: John44 on October 07, 2020, 08:44:09 pm
Think the only way to know is to measure the gas pressure,borrow or buy a ounce gage and measure.
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: fkjohns6083 on October 07, 2020, 08:50:11 pm
You probably have a bad fridge, turn off every thing else and check it again.  Have a great day. ----  Fritz
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: dsd on October 07, 2020, 09:13:19 pm
Fridge works fine on AC
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on October 07, 2020, 09:32:02 pm
Make sure the gas burner in the fridge is clean and free of any rust bits.  A low flame can produce insufficient heat.
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: Protech Racing on October 07, 2020, 09:47:57 pm
Can the stove run both burners without one side dimming when the other is lit?
If so the pressure may be low ,
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: dsd on October 07, 2020, 10:19:00 pm
Roger first photo is fridge. I removed and verified being clean inside. The regulator has been pressured last ten years, no leaks. Just think the output looked visually low. Just thought someone might look at range photo and say yes mine looks the same or I'm guessing bigger  I'll replace the regulator because they do get Old before I attempt to measure flo
Scott
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: dans96u295ft on October 07, 2020, 10:21:13 pm
I read where regulators should be changed every 5 years or at least fully tested
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: dsd on October 07, 2020, 10:23:43 pm
Kinda what I was guessing
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: wolfe10 on October 07, 2020, 10:27:40 pm
Can the stove run both burners without one side dimming when the other is lit?
If so the pressure may be low ,

Wonder if this is it:

Can the stove run both burners without one side dimming when the other is lit?
If NOT the pressure may be low

BTW, for under $25, just replace the regulator!


Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on October 07, 2020, 10:54:12 pm
Our U300's regulator started to smell so I replaced it. Foretravel installed single stage regulators OEM but a 2 stage is only a dollar or so more. It's slightly longer so I added a support so it would not vibrate.

Yes, easy to check the regulator's output pressure. They do get old.

It's not the fridge. Electricity heats an element that heats the same ammonia the gas does.

Pierce
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: stevec22 on October 07, 2020, 11:19:54 pm
The "chimney" of the fridge over the burner/flame is where the heat transfer occurs.  They frequently build up rust flakes that inhibit the heat transfer.

You can "bang" the chimney and knock some rust loose, but learn how first so you don't punch a hole in it.  there is a method.
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: Chuck Van Tassel on October 08, 2020, 07:40:45 am
My stove burners were low so I decided to change dual regulator with new one. When I unhooked the rubber line off the regulator it had substantial amount of oil in it. After draining oil and replacing regulator the burners flame was much higher. Also my furnaces were not lighting every time since finding oil in line they both  light every time.
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: Caflashbob on October 08, 2020, 11:11:03 am
Flames APPEAR  normal.  Dinosaur electronics makes a replacement board for the refer.  My igniter went out on my 97 dometic rm 7832.  Fixed. 
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: dsd on October 08, 2020, 01:38:13 pm
Currently running 23 and 50deg on gas. Will run -14 and 34 on ac. Propane should be more efficient if it's getting enough BTUs to operate  Will locate a brush today and clean the flue
Scott
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on October 08, 2020, 04:15:34 pm
Check the height and color of the flame. Here is what your flame color should look like: Appliance411 FAQ: What should my gas range's flames look like? (http://www.appliance411.com/faq/gas_range_flames.shtml)

Pierce
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: dsd on October 10, 2020, 11:11:39 am
Pierce the trouble shooting aid is helpful. In looking at the first post with pictures I do believe the old regulator is the primary cause of my poor gas performance.. works good on ac even when 105 deg outside. I will order a two stage regulator when we get home on Tuesday
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: wolfe10 on October 10, 2020, 11:23:15 am
Be sure to order the CORRECT regulator. 

If installed vertically, the vent (small screened area) must be on the long axis of the regulator.

If installed horizontally, the vent must be perpendicular to the long axis of the regulator.

Said another way, the vent MUST POINT DOWN when installed.
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: nitehawk on October 10, 2020, 11:25:23 am
Minor suggestion: NEVER check your old regulator for leaks with a lit match. >:D
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: wolfe10 on October 10, 2020, 11:26:16 am
Minor suggestion: NEVER check your old regulator for leaks with a lit match. >:D

Darwin, oh Darwin!
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on October 10, 2020, 01:49:57 pm
I think our two stage regulator was $21-$25. About a buck or two more than the single stage.

If anyone is having trouble with higher pressure air not making bubbles when they check for leaks, buy some Pustefix bubble making liquid. It's what is used in the bubble making machines and not only makes huge bubbles but you can touch them without popping them plus they last a long time. Used in weddings, parties, and Foretravel air leak detection.  ;) Amazon.com: Pustefix Bubbles with Wand (Colors May Vary): Toys & Games (https://www.amazon.com/Pustefix-Bubbles-Wand-Colors-Vary/dp/B000KJQJJW)

Looked at the flame in the two photos at the top. Color and size look good but nothing like checking the WC.

Pierce
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on October 10, 2020, 01:53:42 pm
When I was a kid in HS, I had a go kart gas tank with a lot of rust. I used acid to get rid of the rust and then I wanted to see inside so lit a match and tried to look inside at the same time. I got my eyes closed just as the flame hit my face. Didn't have to worry about a hair cut or sideburns for a while. Terrible smell of burning hair.

Pierce
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: dsd on October 18, 2020, 07:36:33 pm
Replaced gas regulator with new. Same two stage 290 has been replaced with 291 $35.40
Amazon.com: Marshall Excelsior MEGR-291 Reg 2-Stage Vert: Automotive (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KTSBYTY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Somewhat better but still unacceptable  14deg and 47deg on max setting
Works perfect on AC power.  -4deg and 34deg on setting 2
I would think if it works okay on AC gas should be better?
Does the control board function differently between the two?
I do not see as hi boiler temperature  and the fans never come on with gas. I have visually checked flue and cleaned, very little rust deposits removed. I have visually checked propane jet and it's clean, I didn't clean with solvent but may go back and clean. Flame is same as posted prior on fridge.
I was really hoping my old regulator had low output and was my problem but nothing much has changed.
Scott
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: red tractor on October 18, 2020, 07:41:14 pm
You can clean the burner and also the orfice. Also check the swirler in the chimney to make sure that it is there and not partially burned off.
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: wolfe10 on October 18, 2020, 07:46:20 pm
YUP, do a "burner area tune-up.  No parts needed and no special tools.  Can make a world of difference in BTU's of heat to the boiler= difference in cooling
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: dsd on October 18, 2020, 07:49:12 pm
Flue is clean. Also cleaned top tubes of absorption unit while I was in there. Mechanically brushed flue
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: red tractor on October 18, 2020, 07:56:52 pm
That swirler looks like new. I am guessing orfice or burner.
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: dsd on October 18, 2020, 08:31:37 pm
Flue and burner area clean flame looks correct
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: red tractor on October 19, 2020, 06:44:55 pm
You could also check the pressure at the gas valve. Also remove the orfice and check that a gnat isn't in it. I have found that before. They are attracted to the smell of propane.
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: dsd on October 19, 2020, 06:56:14 pm
Orfiice visually looks clean. Going to get the gage to verify gas pressure. I still am guessing it's low. Will chemically clean. Burner tube is also new looking. Cleaned. Need to find out what the operating pressures are also.. been busy updating windows in one of our houses. Too whooped to work on coach today.
Scott
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: dsd on October 19, 2020, 09:41:22 pm
What Do You Mean 11 inches of Water Column? | Good Sam Camping Blog (https://blog.goodsam.com/what-do-you-mean-11-inches-of-water-column/)
Searched forum then internet. Just found this article that covers it well. They are saying 10.5 to 11 inches WC water column. Still need to confirm but have a direction. Also will verify flow after control solenoid not restricted. They also talk about adjustments in article.
Scott
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on October 19, 2020, 11:24:44 pm
Make your own gauge for $5. Lots more on YouTube if you don't like this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWNFVRvbAqw

Pierce
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: dsd on October 20, 2020, 01:33:22 pm
So checked gas pressure to being above 10WC. Went and removed gas solenoid on fridge and located a inlet screen. Cleaned and verified operation. Used brake clean on fuel nozzle. I believe I read that they are a ceramic jet and not to physically touch. They also refract the light going thru them like no other jet I've ever seen. Weird. Red Tractor mentioned how the swirler  looked new. Low output would cause that. Reinstalled and I think there is substantially more gas flow now. Suspect I have solved my small flame problem. There is a test port on the valve marked .5 psi. It has been installed with lock tight and would have to be heated to remove. I tried a little but figure it would be better or not. I am guessing my stove may have a similar Inlet screen which I will eventually look for and clean.
Scott
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: dsd on October 22, 2020, 11:54:26 am
Follow up. Fridge at 1@37 degrees temp setting #2 on gas same as operating on ac. Problem fixed with cleaning Plugged fuel solenoid inlet screen.
Scott
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: dsd on October 27, 2020, 10:57:16 am
I followed up with ARP about my low flow and had I been able to navigate there web sight better I could of found my problem earlier. They responded and asked I mention the following link, links. It is covered very well and better than I would have ever done. I would of never imagined that operating under low LP flow was a fire hazard. These are genuinely good systems (Absorption cooling ) but I can't imagine operating them without a safety system backing up operating control and limits. Shame on the manufacturers not building this into there systems after the first fire.
ARP has made a career out of their deficit. IMO
Dometic Does Not Cool | Dometic LP Filter | Dometic Gas Valve (https://www.arprv.com/dometic-does-not-cool.php)
My LP low pressure filter at the fuel shut off solenoid was partially plugged. Cause my poor performance on gas issues.
So has anyone ever cleaned there's?
Scott
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on October 27, 2020, 11:10:07 am
My LP low pressure filter at the fuel shut off solenoid was partially plugged. Caused my poor performance on gas issues.
Good safety tip for OEM fridge owners.  Plugging may be caused by "oil" accumulation in the gas lines.  See link below for discussion.

I believe there is also a filter on the gas fired cooktops that might need cleaning?

Oil Accumulation in Propane System (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=40088)
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: wolfe10 on October 27, 2020, 12:06:08 pm
Plugging may be caused by "oil" accumulation in the gas lines.

Particularly true with liquid tap propane generators!

Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: dsd on October 27, 2020, 12:48:32 pm
Good safety tip for OEM fridge owners.

I believe there is also a filter on the gas fired cooktops that might need cleaning?

Oil Accumulation in Propane System (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=40088)
I agree. I had mentioned before but the down side won't kill you, just slow cooking.. it's on the list now but many others are before. I did drain several teaspoons of black oil out of the lower line at the regulator near the bottle.
Nevertheless I am doubting few have ever cleaned there LP low pressure filter at the fuel solenoid valve
Scott
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: dsd on June 15, 2021, 09:44:42 am
So updating this post. Problem is back.
In re reading this post I'm going to order a new gas control valve and nozzle assembly and recheck regulator gas pressure.
Just need to research part numbers.
Works great on AC.  :headwall:
Scott
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: dsd on June 15, 2021, 11:47:26 am
Current fridge flame. Can blow out and Immediately restarts
Scott
Side note never bend a good starrett scale. The are so hard and brittle they brake
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: wolfe10 on June 15, 2021, 11:53:21 am
Scott,

From the rust below the burner tube, again, suggest you remove and clean it. Also, remove the gas jet and verify it is clean (do not use any metal tool on the jet).

Very hard to "eyeball" whether the flame is sufficiently large to allow the refrigerator to cool properly.

Said another way, the flame can be big enough to keep the thermocouple "satisfied" but still not providing enough BTU's for the refrigerator to operate properly.

Again, basically you have gas pressure (house regulator) and clean propane jet and clean burner tube to achieve enough BTU's for the refrigerator to operate properly. OR one or more of these diminishing performance just a little leading to a larger BTU "shortfall".
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: dsd on June 15, 2021, 01:26:08 pm
Brett I agree. I have cleaned burner tube prior and will order a new one. I've had the gas valve apart prior and did find the slintered  brass screen restricted. Paul Unmack Had mentioned to check and it is in his video. Nozzle appears to be clean and used alcohol cleaner. Was working better prior. I'm going to replace valve, nozzle Assembly and burner tube. Currently ran gas for a hour and took measurements of temperature with ARP controller and just switched to electric to compare values. Both electric heating probes drawing 1.8 amps each. Will post numbers once I figure them out. It's already 100 degrees in the shade. When I ordered the ARP kit we added the fans and I asked to have a additional condenser cooling fan with the kit. They stated that I probably didn't need but wouldn't hurt having the Additional fan other than additional battery draw. They are saying 116 tomorrow oh joy!
Scott
Title: Re: Gas regulator
Post by: dsd on June 20, 2021, 02:03:00 pm
So being frustrated with all my other distractions I finished cleaning the flue on the absorption fridge I started several days ago. Removed air tube and burner and ignition point. Removed upper cap on roof and pulled spiral swirler out from top with hooked wire. Placed clean paper towel under flue to capture cleaning junk.  Brush is 67 inches long.

So in looking at it flue was still clean IMO and realized that it exhausts inside the condoned air space of the coach directly on the gas tube heating it addionally before exiting the roof cap. About 18" below the top. I think I understand they are still heating the gas at that point just prior to condensing  radiator. I curious if that half before it starts it's return and condensation would work better if it was inside a metal flue/augmenter that would actually help to draw additional air out of the conditioned space area and out the upper cap vent. I think this would reduce temperature  on the condenser area because the thermal siphoning would be would draw the hot air out without letting it mix with the cooler condenser air? Blue mark would represent box area
Scott