So a month ago Sven spoke about the Hydraulic fan controller modification
Hydraulic fan controller (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=40655.msg403657#msg403657)
My controller has been at 100% since I picked it up in June. Drove 6k miles and really couldn't figure out exactly what I wanted to do. His post was enough to get the wheels in motion. I ordered three of the valves and associated bungs and fittings. I was holding off till I did my Aquahot to change fluid on everything at once. Aquahot is almost ready to reinstall once it's area is cleaned and sealed. I got the last of the wax valve components today and will be able to move forward with the install. I chose the 210 deg valves because it makes sense to me and we do not have air conditioning requirements for the Hydraulic fans. Greg, misterEd has been quite a wealth of knowledge and brought up some very good points about a IAT "inlet air temperature solenoid. More on that after installation as that is a secondary installation if needed. I understand that I could see up to a one mile per gallon increase by not having a up to 80 hp fan running at 100% more to come in following days.
Scott
Important update:
NOTE; Please read posts 36-40 for important changes made to this post
After testing, I do not recommend installing the thermostat in the lower hose post the transmission cooler.
Just runs too hot in that location.
My new Thermal Valve was installed Friday. Works fine.
The line to the hyd motor installed fine. The return line had to have an adapter from my hyd shop installed to fit the coaches return line.
Then the fans started on high with the engine cold. Quick call to Source Engineering determined they installed a restrictor on the line to the hyd motor to make the fans run on high for the SOB folks that have the dash A/C condenser radiator mounted in front of the engine radiator. Removed the restrictor per their instructions and all is working fine.
Rudy, did they install on lower radiator line? Was thinking about this last night. Sven was installed there. This would allow to control radiator outlet temp. If it was placed after the transmission cooler it would also try to control the temperature including added BTUs from the retarder when in use. This would reduce the radiator saturated temperature during heavy retarder use. I have yet to experience "engine" water temps climb do to retarder use, however I have never used at near max GCWR and I plan to in the future In the Sierra Mountains. In writing this I see no downside too it being downstream of the transmission cooler before it enters the engine for cooling.
Scott
So after thinking about were it should be mounted talked to several friends of mine and one that rebuilds large Allison transmissions. He was very knowledgeable about the retarder and recommended installing the wax controller past the retarder/transmission cooler. Personally he would prefer the trans to be operating a 100 deg cooler but likes the fact that if monitoring cooler output temps this would help reduce trans oil temps more when actually needed on long descents. Will also run radiator fans higher on descents to cool coolant and additionally increase dynamic braking do to the hydraulic loads running the fans. 20/20 hindsight I would of ordered three weld in bungs to place in all three positions to vary and see what I liked the most. This will cause radiator temperature to be higher do to reduced fan load demand increasing economy. That said proof is in the results. Who knows till then.
Scott
Just a reminder, anytime you are using the retarder for LONG descents it is important to use the Allison down arrow to keep the engine at the upper end of its RPM range and use the minimum retarder setting to keep your speed in check.
Higher engine RPM keeps the water pump turning faster so more coolant flow through the radiator and transmission cooler.
Absolutely agree. And with sensing after cooler at the peak of added BTUs from the trans retarder will increase fans speed during low engine demands
Scott
Good point. Thanks
I like your idea of a 210 fan controller. I have a 190 fan controller and it is installed in the middle of the pipe from the thermostat
housing. I have a 190 degree thermostat so I think a higher fan control would be a good idea. As far as going down hill I put in a
Jake Brake in so I don't use the retarder that much. I need to shift down to have it work really good. I thinking of putting in a
second floor switch and having Allison to program the trans to shift down automatically when that peddle switch is applied.
You should have the best setup. I'll keep an eye out for one. You are costing me money. Really liked your post on it.
Scott
So finally after all the distractions I was able to take the coach out and do preliminary trial runs and leak checks. Ran for about a hour total. Rechecked all new hose clamps and checked for leaks. I had replaced the hose clamps on the trans cooler from standard breeze hose clamps to upgraded breeze constant tension clamps from caps supply
Constant Torque CT Aero-Seal Hose Clamps – CAP Hardware Supply (https://www.caphardwaresupply.com/collections/frontpage/products/constant-torque-ct-aero-seal-hose-clamps)
Runs at 190 deg now all the time. This increased temperature was what I was looking for. Transmission temperature and retarder also increased. Seems to run better. IAT today never exceeded 105 deg. At full power during long pull. I did notice that the retarder temperature goes up much faster than before around town. I'm sure this is a result of running warmer. I think I will be adding the IAT solenoid and utilize for the retarder to run cooling fans at max during retarder use time. Will know more after several hundred more miles. Baker grade in August is the real test. Increased fuel economy should also be recorded. Total Kit cost was under $350 for parts needed. My wax valve was installed after the transmission oil cooler. I do believe this will be best for fuel economy but I'll have to manage retarder temps much closer than I did before. I'll update after some more miles when I have a actual number of fuel used.
Scott
Forgot to mention the background fans speed is almost zero. I installed a needle valve to easily adjust up if needed but so far have not. At zero the fans do not run at all.
Scott
Scott you need the fans to run to keep the after cooled air cool. I put a 190 degree thermostat so the engine runs at 190 and I might
do what you did and get a 210 wax valve.
I would be VERY concerned about intake air temperature with no air moving across the CAC!
So I too was concerned. Today I never saw above 110 deg. I still think that the IAT Solenoid is a good safe guard. Thinking summertime is the test. Once everything is hot fans are running to cool
Scott
Screenshot
My neighbor with a 2002 295 is going to install wax valve after thermostat housing in upper radiator tube. Will runs fans more I believe. Another forum member has also got a install kit and his install may also be different. Installing two solenoids sounds kinda redundant but would address all concerns. I'll look into the costs.
ALSO just noticed that the bedroom reflects the added heat. May add cooling fans sooner than I thought. It's a big heat sink. Lol.
Scott
What was ambient temperature when the screen shot above showed 97 degrees F?
About 70.
Would of stopped and increased fan speed if it was higher. Will watch and collect more information as I go forward. Having a way to view fan speed would be nice while driving
Scott
Is there a photo tachometer with a remote sensor?
I'm sure there is. I'll be looking into something
Scott
With 70 degree ambient temperature and driving 75 MPH and only seeing 97 degree intake temperature (assuming that is an accurate number) there HAS to be air flow through the CAC.
But, as you said, summer temperatures will be the biggest test.
Like your idea of fans to high anytime the retarder is on. Additional braking AND additional cooling.
IAT solenoid would be probably in the 20-30% fans speed speculating And 100% for retarder. Currently background speed is just tuning the fans like 1%. I'm curious how much airflow is being caused by drawing air thru caused by low pressure area behind coach. Any way to get any airflow thru is beneficial. I know of no way to tell? Maybe a manometer measuring pressure differential? I'm still not fully comfortable yet with the setup but hopeful it will work. I still won't fully know till it's hotter. Also having a manual control of the 100% retarder selection might be beneficial to help manually overcool prior to shutdown for the trip to drop radiator temps and engine compartment temps. Hadn't thought of that till this post. Brett your keeping me thinking. Thanks.
Scott
It is very unlikely there will be a condition where the fans will not be spinning when you actually need the charge air cooler to cool incoming air.
Specifically: when the turbo is making boost and the charge air needs to be cooled, the engine will be under load. When the engine is under load, it makes heat. When it makes heat, the coolant gets hot. When coolant gets hot, the "wax valve" senses it and runs the fans.
When you get that remote sensing photo tach, maybe set it up to read a fan like a pinwheel mounted right inside the engine compartment louvers on the rear. That ought to give you some idea, and if you use a fan with known pitch should be able to calculate airflow volume. Or, more simply, use a dc fan, let airflow motor it and measure voltage.
It's an interesting question with large implications regarding cooling efficiency.
Notable exception will be on first starting out/before coolant up to temperature. Climbing a grade in the first 10-15 minutes could result in excessively high intake air temps. I would feel more comfortable with a restrictor that gave LOW to HIGH not OFF to HIGH.
I remember Monaco doing testing in AZ heat pulling a machine that simulated a constant load on the engine. Once I road in a side radiator Diplomat they were testing and it had multiple hookup wires and notebook computers hooked up like a person in ICU. The engineers were not happy with the results they were getting, and they were modifying various components on the exterior rear of the rv, and the programming of the ECU. The engineers were from both Monaco and the engine manufacturer.
In thinking about this and what I've seen IAT must be maintained below 150 and colder is always denser. Having two flow control solenoids one for IAT at 30-50% and one for retarder at 100% with a manual control for pre shutdown cool down control Seems very desirable to me. I've drove our coach about 6k miles since we picked up at 100% fan speed the entire time. I really noticed the difference in the retarder temps and cool down time. Transmission temps also higher and was expected. Didn't give any thought about bedroom temperature till post drive and don't like at all. Manual Pre shutdown cool down will not effect engine temperature but will shed heat from radiator and engine compartment as it did in the past. Possibly trans temperature too? IAT can also be controlled by increasing baseline idle fan speed, but is a forever impact on fuel economy. Currently fans are turning ie not stalled but very low output. I felt that having them rotating even slowly was better than not. Very adjustable. If I get enough time I'll head down to Hoover dam today and watch how it performs pulling up the grade returning home.
Scott
In this particular case, the engine is controlled by an ECU that monitors intake temps. If there is an issue with too high of intake temp, it will do something. What that something is, I don't know. But I have faith in the engineers at Cummins.
Historically, many diesel engines are turbocharged and do not have charge air coolers (CAC). CAC exist mainly for a power/efficiency reason on a diesel. There is not a detonation risk, such as on gas engines.
Nobody knows the actually effectiveness of the CAC with the original setup vs the current setup. Perhaps there really isn't much change in inlet air temps (IAT).
Those with Silverleaf or similar can report, but suspect in most cases that intake manifold temps with a properly clean CAC and properly running fans should be within 15-20 degrees of ambient temperature.
Here, lower/cooler is better.
Last winter in the morning I left with a cold engine at the bottom of a long climb and part way up the climb a warning light came
on in the dash indicating high intake air temp. I eased of on the throttle and it went away. At the time I didn't know what it was
and now I believe that the rad fans were only running on the slow speed as the engine was still cold so the intake temp was too
high. I have now learned that the intake temperature can let me know that I am pushing the engine too hard an to ease off or shift
down. I have learned that I can use the intake temperature like an exhaust temperature sensor so not to push the engine to
hard. I have now got the intake temperature on my silver leaf and I just have to figger out the temp to back off.
This is the reason for a IAT sensor and solenoid set to 30-50% background speed. If higher than normal IAT temps are reached the IAT solenoid is closed and ramps fan rpm up automatically 30-50% without you knowing. The Retarder solenoid would close off fluid flow causing fans to go to high 100% causing additional dynamic braking and max cooling during retarder use. Extra cooling is always good, however it comes at a cost, fuel. But a nonissue if braking.
Scott
First having the fan go to high speed while retarding makes sense. Second when I got my coach it already had a wax valve in it.
I gather from reading this post my coach didn't come this way.
Your coach being a '99/ 320 came with a wax valve OEM. Seems like sometime in the 2000 year run is when they changed systems.
Mike
So I am curious on what you baseline cold fan speed is set for?
If there is little air being pulled thru do to the low pressure behind the coach It would make sense to have a minimum airflow thru the system. Fuel cooler, CAC, radiator all need some loss of BTUs except if it's cold enough outside. I will never see me in those conditions again. Too cold. I would/will be on the near low side of fans speed if possible. Hasn't been warm enough last couple of days to see how it works. Been busy on other stuff too.
Scott
Update to were am with this. I originally installed the wax valve in the lower hose past the transmission cooler. The engine temps are were I want them now, BUT the trans temp is running near 200 also. Retarder use is quite limited and takes forever to cool down. Really needs cooler source of coolant. Bedroom temperature stays saturated after shutdown. No good
Moved wax valve to upper hose. Back to being happier with retarder use and cool down better. Please understand I am comparing to A failed control system at 100% fans operation and it was much , much better with a max cooled radiator cooling transmission and bedroom was much cooler at 100% fan operation.
Next goal will be to add the Inlet air Temperature IAT control solenoid system
Maximum IAT with a below temp engine has been 139 at 70 OAT. When engine at operating temps it says below a 100.
Am planning to also add into the IAT solenoid And control. A additional ON command for retarder use with delay off timer and brakes for added dynamic braking, will be at low power settings. No cost to operate fans at 100%
Because I liked the100% cooling prior I want to add in a manual ON to pre cool engine compartment and Accessories before shut down. Good for the engine and components and good for the bedroom to dump a bunch of saturated heat before shut down. Especially in the summer.
I'm sure the IAT doesn't need 100% but won't hurt other than fuel used and when at compleat operating temperature seems the fans are partially engaged and maintain below a 100 IAT at 70 deg OAT.
Just need to locate part numbers and start acquiring them.
Scott
So updating my progress. Finished my Foretravel distractions last week. Sent off to powder coat and is out of my hair. My employer has summoned my return to work May 1 this year instead of 2022. BUMMER. So I had purchase s solenoid shut off valve. The desirable adjustable valve is 250$ compared to my two position shut off valve. Open/closed at 100$. It is a normally relaxed open valve. If installing the adjustable I still would of needed the shut off valve. The adjustable is used to operate fans at 40-50% for IAT reduction. The shut off valve will use more fuel during IAT requirements but duration is short and infrequent for my driving manners. The shut off valve runs the fans at 100% percent like a failed electronic controller. All of my coach miles I've driven was with a failed controller. 7500 miles. I installed a single pull double throw switch for controlling the fans. I was able to hook up the override command fans to hi position. Easy to hear fans speed change seated in the drivers seat. Will be installing a Bosch relay to signal max fan speed during brake and retarder use. Will use that same circuit for the IAT commanded on also. Being able to max cool the drivetrain makes a noticeable difference when shutting down coach. Was a unrealized benefit that I really like. I'll post solenoid info once if got a few miles on it. More to come.
Scott
So real close to completion. Ordered a radiator electric fan control unit Amazon.com: Hayden Automotive 3651 Adjustable Thermostatic Fan Control:... (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000C39C72/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
And will used for the auto mode of the fan controller. Was able to hook up to the first half of the control switch. So in this position if any of the following are met it turns the fans on.
Hi inlet air temperature IAT
Application of the retarder,
Application of the brakes.
The fan controller wasn't made for this application but works well in testing. Adjusted ON temperature to 150 degrees and it shuts OFF at 115 degrees. Can adjust more if needed. Installed the probe in the inlet duct after the CAC. The controller also has a input for air conditioning and this worked perfect for triggering from brakes and retarder circuit. A additional benefit is when the controller has triggered the fan operation this backfeeds the over ride portion of the control switch at the drivers seat illuminating the fan on hi indicator in the switch faceplate itself.
Normal operation will be in position one Auto and when desired for cool down can be placed in override position two. Auto has a small led indication and override has a larger led indication. Anytime the fans have been commanded on by any manner the large led is illuminated on the switch. I'll make up a wiring schematic and get photos soon. Still need to make switch spacer plate also to finish.
Scott
So finally finished. Will take out for a test run in the morning. So really like having a indication of when the solenoid is engaged either manually or any of the other auto modes.
Scott
Went out and ran coach. Was unable to get hi enough IAT to set fans on, had operated with heat gun prior to set temperature but everything else worked as expected. Much better retarder heat performance than prior. Did notice I liked be able to operate in override position when ever I wanted, like entering a long downhill you could start precooling system ahead of entering downhill. 80 Deg OAT today and drove down to Hoover dam on the new I11 bypass around Boulder City. Retarded is working as it did before with fans failed to 100% on operation. Still don't know cooling fan speed or percentage of operation. Don't think I need too, won't change anything if I did. Pulling back up grade cooling system never exceeded 185 deg. Trans about 175 retarder 180. Switch in auto with no indication of 100% commanded. Also after extended retarder use when turning around at Kingman wash retarder temperature was already dropping from 240 deg s. This downhill was also using lower gears in trans. This prior would take some time to recover never immediately after the stop . I really like being able to command on to cool down before shutdown feature. All in all I'm very pleased and thankful for all the help. I'll post wiring diagram and other details to this post eventually.
Solenoid Operated Shut Off Valve, 2 Way, Normally Open, #8 SAE Ports (https://summit-hydraulics.com/product/solenoid-operated-shut-off-valve-2-way-normally-open-8-sae-ports/)
Note on special order available in #6
Plug
Deutsch DT06-2S Male Solenoid Connector w/ Wire Leads (https://summit-hydraulics.com/product/deutsch-dt06-2s-male-solenoid-connector-w-wire-leads/)
Single pull double throw double lighted switch
Amazon.com: MGI SpeedWare LED Marine Rocker Switches 12V 20A, 3 Pack - SPDT... (https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0813WV3ZQ?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title)
Scott
As a datapoint to this thread, mine is a 99 U320 and does not have the wax valve. It has the electronic controller mounted down on the horizontal beam that the hitch is welded to. Mine will run on a lower fan speed until around 180F coolant temp at which point it revs up to 100% (at least it seems to be) and stays there. I don't think I've ever heard them turn back to low speed, even when it is cold out.
I really don't get bad fuel economy even though the fans are at 100%. 8-8.5mpg. Which is excellent when you consider we are 42', always run with 200 gallons of water and fuel and have a 6000 pound toad.
This too was how my coach was originally configured. Mine was failed in the 100% fan on position. If you are seeing a change in fan percentage yours is still operational, easy check is to go to a hi idle and disconnect the control plug on the controller and your solenoid valve will close and fan speed will go to 100%. If it's is already at 100% it is failed or overheating.
Scott
So after last weeks trip from Boulder City Nevada to Ann Arbor Michigan and back got to beta test the entire cooling system control modification of to the wax controller.
I had added a thermostatically controlled sensor for the IAT inlet air temp and a 100% off control solenoid for use with retarder use, brakes, and manual over ride. We drove I70 and made real good time and the 9 mpg to show for it. I70 west of Denver is quite exciting to say the least. I found that I really liked being able to override fans when ever I wanted. Most down hill grades were made in 4-5 gear and level one on the joy stick. I found that this would keep retarder temperature below 233 and minimal brake use. Never saw the IAT temps above 110 or activated other than when manually in override. Was able to command fans to 100% before shutdown at night. Would run for about 20 minutes prior. Bedroom temperature this trip was much better than before with fan override, resonator installation, and a actual bed rather than a air mattress. I saw a decrease in fuel economy but was pushing a little harder than prior. 9 mpg. So although not accurate I swear the instant fuel economy would actually improve .2-.3 mpg with fans engaged? Probably just coincidence and no way to actually prove but will watch some more next trip. All in all I'm quite satisfied and glad I did the mods.
Scott
Thanks Scott for being the Guinee pig. I have all the parts you acquired for me and will follow your setup when my controller fails or I have some time on my hands.
Follow up trip this week. Took baby daughter to last year of college. She flew up a couple days ago and week trailered her car up to her. Boulder City to Reno up 95. Ran good no issues. With the additional shutoff valve installed to command hi speed and dual control I'm able to put into auto mode and it manages itself well. Any braking or retarder use and radiator fans on hi. Or manually put on hi if desired. After dropping kid off we headed to Ely for a change of sights from Carson city across 50. Was real impressed how well thing worked going out of Austin Nv is quite a downhill curvy road. Third gear 1700 rpm level one retarder. First time I've ever seen retarder temperature actually drop during use to 195 degrees. In forth gear or higher I alway am running in the 220s retarder temperature. One flat level ground I also turned the fan control between auto and on and noted the temperature difference. 197 is my normal radiator temperature in auto but with fans on I saw it drop to 171 on one run. IAT was generally 105-115 and fans on or off didn't seem to make a difference? It was blazing hot outside at 108 at times. Was really nice how operating prior to shutting down for twenty miles dropped the bedroom temperature. When we stopped in Ely for the night is was bearable to sleep in. I really like having manual control over the radiator cooling fans for cool down prior to shutdown. This was similar to prior operation with failed on fan controller. Home run for me. IAT override is set to 150 degrees and I've never seen it trip the controller. Only other additional mode I'm thinking of is a time delay switch to keep fans actuated for a additional 30 seconds once activated. That would help to clip that hi temperature peak after retarder release automatically
Really enjoyed 50 between Carson and Ely. Is a work out climbing and descending. 👍👍
Scott
Scott,
Next time, stop at Spencer Hot Springs, just a few miles east of Austin. Good to overnight and soak with super views. That is one of our favorite highways. Check the views: Spencer Hot Springs in Nevada | Soak in Austin Hot Springs (https://travelnevada.com/hot-springs/spencer-hot-springs/)
Easy access for any car or RV: Google Maps (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Spencer+Hot+Springs/@39.3268727,-116.8641933,3736m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x80a4b4c5b6c77ac7:0xadd33417f1c6ee72!8m2!3d39.3268733!4d-116.8598052) Two or three pools.
Pierce
You guys are having way too much fun.
Remember KISS.
Absolutely agree, but really like the fact that now my fans ramp up for retarder use, and any braking action automatically. Also being able to manually turn to high for max cooling and deleting all the extra heat before shutdown makes immediate use of the bedroom tolerable. So reverting back to the wax valve (KISS) and having a override system works well for me.
Scott
IAT protection is a nice feature, however haven't seen it activated yet in use
KISS is just having a switch, one position is low, the other is high. That is what I did using existing wire from engine to dash. Lift the ground wire from the hi/low speed solenoid, connect to wire going to one side of dash switch. The other side of switch is grounded. Now hi/low when you want it.
I just need help on why my fans are running slow on hi and low by about 600rpm. I have new pump, fan motors, star controller, hi/low solenoid value. That is all the parts.
Pat,
Pat,
I know there were a lot of different hydraulic systems used over the years. Below it a picture of our 1993 U240. The aluminum block on the passenger's side frame rail (yes with optional, owner added pressure gauge) allows for total PSI adjustment.
Yes, Brett that looks like my stuff. I do notice in the picture that the allen head screw is out a long ways. Mine is all the way in!! I still have the slow fan speed problem and I am working on it again. I need a better drawing of the system. I have 7-8 hoses connecting 5 components(reservoir, pump, Star Controller, HI/LOW solenoid value, fans). No one knows about all that stuff and how it should work. Can you find anything?
Thanks in advance Brett,
Pat,
Sorry, your system is different than the 1993 U240 original or what Foretravel sent when my pump "puked" at Fort Davis State Park.
Also, the 1993 was a single large fan, you have two smaller ones.
Have you tried getting info from either Foretravel or MOT. May be a good idea to send pictures of each component.
BTW, that is a CAP on the adjustment allen screw that controls system pressure. You have to remove the cap to access the allen screw with its lock nut.
When I first installed the new system (on the frozen ground in Alpine, TX), the fan did not turn. I was devastated. A quick visit with the local hydraulic shop (lots of hydraulic farm/ranch equipment out there) said to go adjust the pressure regulator. Also suggested adding the "T" and pressure gauge to eliminate guessing. System worked just fine for the next 100,000 miles, and likely still works well today.
I just finished the electrical solenoid to put the fans on high speed according
to Scotts idea. Having just putting in a Seelevel system the select slot for the
different applications for the Javelina I used for the switch for the new fan
controller. The switch I used lights up when it's on. I will take pictures on the
instal soon.
So i really like the ability to manually turn them on prior to shut down. Everything clips the top 15 degrees off. Still planning on a 3 minute timer to extend actuation by retarder and brakes
Scott
Scott I hadn't thought about cooling down, good idea. Here is the pictures of
the instal.